P2 In a SEP

[londonblue]

I have just had a conversation with a friend of mine who was saying that he thinks it is possible to fly P2, and therefore count the hours in your log book, in a SEP.

Is he correct? I have always been told that you can't fly P2 in a SEP...

[Johnm]

There's only one pilot in a SEP, unless there's a qualified instructor and pilot

[charliegolf]

You can fill every seat in a SEP with a pilot. However....

CG

[Martin_123]

it depends from an aircraft certification, most SEPs require 1 crew so P2 is considered supernumerary and as such - hours should not be logged, however - An 2 is also a SEP, but for some operations may require 2 pilots.

nothing to do with class rating really

[9 lives]

count the hours in your log book,

Excellent choice of wording Londonblue... A person (not even a pilot) can write whatever they want in their logbook. However, only time spent as a qualified and required flight crew member counts for anything. It is simply fraud to attempt to convince someone that you have flying experience which you were not entitled to credit to yourself.

Aside from a role as a qualified and required instructor, an aircraft's type certificate will state if a second pilot is required. For single engined Cessnas, a second pilot is not required.

[Pace]

Having said that what happens if one pilot logs the first half of the flight and the other the second half? IE in an hour flight one acting as P1 for 30 minutes from the left and the other 30 minutes from the right? to save changing over with a landing?

On a long flight of say 4 hours it quite feasible one pilot could go for a rest in the back allowing the other pilot to P1 from the right.

Pace

[londonblue]

Step Turn. Thanks for that!

Basically everyone has confirmed what I thought. You might have P2, but it counts for nothing. This friend (for some reason I haven't got to the bottom of) wants to use P2 as a way to increase his hours. My argument was that it doesn't count because my plane (PA 28) doesn't require 2 pilots.

That's apart from the fact that he's not insured!

[Above The Clouds]

Londonblue
This friend (for some reason I haven't got to the bottom of) wants to use P2 as a way to increase his hours. My argument was that it doesn't count because my plane (PA 28) doesn't require 2 pilots.


Thats easy to explain, its your aircraft you both go flying together, he gets you to log P2 so effectively he has now become P1 for the purpose of gaining hours in the eyes of the CAA for future ratings.

If then queried by the authority at sometime in the future when he applies for a rating using illegally obtained hours, they check his log book its shows P1, they check your log book it shows P2, guess who is right in the eyes of the CAA ?

[ChickenHouse]

In SEP VFR there is no P2, except for some special planes under specific circumstances. In your logbook you are free to write whatever you want, even your hours spent in an airliner holiday traveling or write a love poem. But, you cannot claim these "fun hours" for anything. If you are flying 150 hours a year and write down the 2 hours on the right seat with a friend to keep track for your personal feelings, who cares? If you are flying the bare minimum hours and claim these right seat hours for BFR, then it is getting dangerous and should be fetched by the FI/FE check.

[foxmoth]

Not this old chestnut AGAIN!:rolleyes:

[worrab]

Nobody's mentioned the Left Hand Seat yet - only a matter of time. Pity there isn't a Groundhog Smiley. :ugh:

[Above The Clouds]

I only have a front and rear seat, does that count :)

[9 lives]

Nobody's mentioned the Left Hand Seat yet

Okay.... The seat to be occupied by the pilot flying may be specified for the type - or may not. The Cessna Caravan is the only single Cessna I'm aware of for which the seat to be occupied by the pilot is specified. I cannot speak for other types.

what happens if one pilot logs the first half of the flight and the other the second half?

A few things:

Neither pilot completes a whole flight, so morally cannot claim a flight's worth of experience for the time logged.

One of those pilots might not have legitimately flown the aircraft in the sense of being insured for the flight, current in the aircraft, and entitled to fly the aircraft by its owner.

At least one of the pilots did not take responsibility for the flight in a PIC sense (there was someone else there to babysit them). I note that experience I have had while flying alone, or in the company of non pilot pax has been much more valuable in terms of building confidence and experience than while I was a second pilot. On your own, it's up to you - that's what makes a pilot!

Pilots who play games with their record of experience embarrass us all....

[londonblue]

Thats easy to explain, its your aircraft you both go flying together, he gets you to log P2 so effectively he has now become P1 for the purpose of gaining hours in the eyes of the CAA for future ratings.

If then queried by the authority at sometime in the future when he applies for a rating using illegally obtained hours, they check his log book its shows P1, they check your log book it shows P2, guess who is right in the eyes of the CAA ?

Not quite, he wanted to log his hours as P2.

[9 lives]

he wanted to log his hours as P2

I wonder what the specified duties for "P2" would be for a light SEP, in accordance with its type design... Ah... none....

[Saab Dastard]

Search this forum for "logging hours"...

e.g. http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/529887-logging-hours.html

SD

[flyems]

For single engined Cessnas, a second pilot is not required.

There are some C208 operations that require two on the flight deck, whilst some twin operations can be conducted with one on the flight deck.

The number of engines or the size of the aircraft are factors, similarly the requirements for the specific operation as determined by the governing authority, with the insurance carrier likely to play some part in the decision.

[9 lives]

There are some C208 operations that require two on the flight deck,

I'm sure that's true, but that's an operational requirement, not an aircraft type requirement. In the context of this thread, it has little impact....

[flyems]

P2 In a SEP
I have just had a conversation with a friend of mine who was saying that he thinks it is possible to fly P2, and therefore count the hours in your log book, in a SEP.

Is he correct? I have always been told that you can't fly P2 in a SEP...

The short answer is yes it is possible, conditional upon it being an operational requirement, and that you have an appropriate rating...

[9 lives]

yes it is possible, conditional upon it being an operational requirement, and that you have an appropriate rating...


Flyems, would you describe the requirements and rating which entitle a non instructor to log P2 hours in an SEP aircraft?

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Step Turn;

Here in EASA land it goes a bit like this. (the following is what I had to look at for privately operating single pilot IFR helicopters with two pilots. Although the pilots are paid and have all the fringe benefits, and hold ATPL/CPL IR, the flights are private for the owners, and could in fact, if a sutably qualified PPL was available be flown by a PPL)

1.The aircraft are certified SP/IFR therefore there is no requirement for a P2, therefore the bod in the P2 seat can't log the hours.

2. To operate properly 2 crew, both pilots must have passed a multi crew LPC on type and be MCC qualified. The crew must have procedures in place to operate 2 crew.

3. As the aircraft are certified SP/IFR there are no such procedures available, ergo the only way they can be done is to write them and submit them to the authority.

Doubtless others know more than me, but that has been my experience, and writing the procedures and getting them accepted took quite a while. I've heard all sorts of schemes in flying club bars, including one bloke who was claiming two crew time in a PA28 for his currency, until he was shown the insurance small print which mentioned something about PIC/P2 hours......

SND

[flyems]

Step Turn,

The question posed in the original post was:

P2 In a SEP
I have just had a conversation with a friend of mine who was saying that he thinks it is possible to fly P2, and therefore count the hours in your log book, in a SEP.

Is he correct? I have always been told that you can't fly P2 in a SEP...

There were no further conditions applied to that question. The answer to that question remains a firm yes you can, I mentioned some of the conditions that would warrant that.

I happen to agree with you that trundling off for Sunday brunch in a C172 is a single-pilot operation, and for the vast majority of SEP operations there is no regulatory requirement for a P2, which would preclude logging any such hours.

Having said that, SEP and P2 are not mutually exclusive propositions, they co-exist under some circumstances.

Flyems, would you describe the requirements and rating which entitle a non instructor to log P2 hours in an SEP aircraft?

If the civil aviation authority that governs a specific operation requires two crew members on the flight deck for that operation the P2 would be entitled to log those hours, regardless of the number of engines and the hydrocarbon utilised or whether its a fixed or rotor wing aircraft.

P2 is a regulatory/operational/insurance requirement, not exclusively related to SEP operations, there are twin jets that have no need for a P2.

[9 lives]

3. As the aircraft are certified SP/IFR there are no such procedures available, ergo the only way they can be done is to write them and submit them to the authority.

Doubtless others know more than me, but that has been my experience, and writing the procedures and getting them accepted took quite a while.

The 172 and that class of SEP aircraft do not require, and cannot be practically be made to require a crew of two pilots - other than for training.

Yes, one might apply to the authority for specific approved operations, but the authority will not expend time nor effort considering and issuing approvals for which a real world need has been demonstrated. As I mentioned before, for operations within the limitations of a 172 or similar SEP aircraft, what would the second pilot do? "Please find the approach plate for XXX, and tune the frequencies..." does not constitute enough "piloting" that a second pilot should log flying time for it.

If the civil aviation authority that governs a specific operation requires two crew members on the flight deck for that operation the P2 would be entitled to log those hours, regardless of the number of engines and the hydrocarbon utilised or whether its a fixed or rotor wing aircraft.

Entirely agreed, but I struggle to imagine what those would be in the vast majority of SEP GA aircraft.

SEP and P2 are not mutually exclusive propositions, they co-exist under some circumstances.

Could you present any examples?

In Canada, the rule reads:

Minimum Flight Crew of 2 Requirement

The type certificate determines if an aircraft is to be operated with a minimum flight crew of 2. For example, large Boeing Aeroplanes (B737, 747, 757, etc.) are designated as minimum flight crew of 2 on the type certificate. Guidance material regarding minimum crew requirement is found in Section 421.40 (https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/regserv/cars/part4-standards-421-1086.htm#421_40) of the CARs - Appendix A Aircraft Type Designators. This chart is a guide only and, in the event of a discrepancy, the appropriate Aircraft Type Approval, Aircraft Type Certificate, Flight Permit, Aircraft Flight Manual or Pilot's Operating Manual take precedence.


In the referenced list, there is no propeller powered Cessna or Beechcraft, no Piper whatever, and no other light common SEP aircraft. Thus, in Canada there is no entitlement to log P2 time in those aircraft, unless the operation requires it, and operations which could conceivably require it in Canada would require a turbine type, so SEP would be out anyway....

[ChickenHouse]

@SND: isn't there a requirement in EASAland to operate SEP IFR with either a two-axis autopilot equipped or a 2 crew? Consequently in EASAland there could be P2 IR SEP hours in aircraft without two-axis autopilot flying IFR, or not?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that restriction is only in a few countries, and only for commercial operations.

It's certainly not true in Britain.

But EASA standardisation is seldom all that standardised!


I'm sure you're right that there are some obscure conditions somewhere where it's possible to have 2 people logging in an SEP (other than the obvious of instruction). But it's rare, and certainly doesn't apply to the vast majority of pilots, the vast majority of the time.

G

[tmmorris]

When I read in the POH for the club PA28:

Minimum flight crew: 1

I laughed. But I am beginning to see why they specified it...

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Chicken house;

You are right, except in the helicopter case where ther is no IFR without two engines AND a working auto-pilot, and a spare pilot if you need/want one.

BUT if an aeroplane is certified single pilot and none of the other items I described in my earlier post have been covered then there is still no 2 crew. It used to be so much easier before JAR and EASA

SND

[flybymike]

It used to be so much easier before JAR and EASA
The understatement of the century.

[londonblue]

Flyems.

You are correct that I put no restrictions on my original question. However, I was talking about two guys getting in a PA28 and going somewhere just for the hell of it.

In this instance, where neither pilot is a qualified instrument pilot, or even MCC qualified, and we're flying in the daytime it seems my friend is wrong.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

LondonBlue;

I've been around this business for 30 years and IMO your friend is wrong. PM me if I can help explain further.

SND

[Sam Rutherford]

Not sure this will help, but I have about 500 P2 hours in my logbook.

Military Gazelle (Single engine, and also very definitely a single-pilot machine). Subsequently about 1000 P1 hours (and when flying with a co-pilot, he was logging P2). No instructors in sight.

No question that I shouldn't have logged those P2 hours, so...? Something different for the military?

Safe flights, Sam.

[Maoraigh1]

"or even MCC qualified"
It isn't cricket for both to log the hours.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Maroaghi 1;

Brilliant!!:D:D:D:D:D

SND

[BillieBob]

In a single pilot aeroplane such as the PA28 there are only three operating capacities that may be claimed for licensing purposes, PIC, Dual or SPIC. Dual (as defined in FCL.010) may be claimed only if receiving flight instruction from a properly authorised instructor and SPIC is reserved for students on an approved integrated course. In the circumstances described by the OP, therefore, one of the pilots may claim PIC while the other is simply a passenger - these roles may, of course, be exchanged during the flight but the sum of the PIC time claimed by the two pilots may not exceed the total flight time. The only other operating capacity recognised by the UK (but not by EASA) is SNY (supernumerary) although it counts for nothing in licensing terms.

A pilot may record anything (s)he wishes in his/her personal logbook but, when applying for licences, ratings or certificates, may claim only flight time gained in accordance with the regulations. Any flight time gained in SEP aeroplanes and recorded in a logbook as P2 will be ignored for licensing purposes by the competent authority.

[flyems]

Flyems.

You are correct that I put no restrictions on my original question. However, I was talking about two guys getting in a PA28 and going somewhere just for the hell of it.

In this instance, where neither pilot is a qualified instrument pilot, or even MCC qualified, and we're flying in the daytime it seems my friend is wrong.

No question about him being wrong in this instance!

[rightbank]

It used to be so much easier before JAR and EASA

Who would have thought 20 years ago that in the future people would yearn for the good old days of the CAA!!

[ChickenHouse]

Any flight time gained in SEP aeroplanes and recorded in a logbook as P2 will be ignored for licensing purposes by the competent authority.

B4 digging into the details I would have second that, but now I am not sure this holds under all circumstances (unless you encounter a bonehard ignorant authorities clerk).

If you have a single pilot certified SEP, whose actual operations requires a second pilot - as there are some occasions we already identified by the IFR requirements for aircraft without 2-axis autopilot in certain countries - how to deal with that? Open question, as I am really not sure.

[9 lives]

If you have a single pilot certified SEP, whose actual operations requires a second pilot - as there are some occasions we already identified by the IFR requirements for aircraft without 2-axis autopilot in certain countries - how to deal with that?

I am aware that some commercial operations could require two pilots. Honestly, is anyone aware of a commercial IFR operation permitted in an SEP type aircraft? Short of citing a real world example, I thing this is a stretch of thinking to a non existent scenario....

[ChickenHouse]

I am aware that some commercial operations could require two pilots. Honestly, is anyone aware of a commercial IFR operation permitted in an SEP type aircraft? Short of citing a real world example, I thing this is a stretch of thinking to a non existent scenario....
AFAIK commercial operations is not permitted IFR SEP in EASAland, but I positively know that i.e. local German regulations require a 2-crew for private D-reg IFR SEP, in case the aircraft is not equipped with a 2-axis autopilot and altitude hold.

[Capt Kremmen]

Surely this question hinges upon an interpretaton of 'requires' or 'required' ?

Who is doing the 'requiring' ? I think that it is, in the case of a non commercial flight - I have no knowledge of the rules governing commercials - in the remit of P1.

If two, both rated on type, are flying and one is designated P1 for the duration of the flight and P1 asks his - at that point passenger - to take over and fly the a/c that pilot (erstwhile passenger) without assuming command duties becomes the handling pilot and can log P.2. entering in the 'remarks' column; "Shared Duties".

[S-Works]

You can write what you like in your log book just be very very very careful about trying to claim time illegally towards the issue or revalidation of a rating.......

By illegal I mean one of, but not limited to, 2 pilots claiming the same flight time, a pilot claiming P2 in an aircraft certified for only one crew, claiming flight time in an aircraft as commander that you are not qualified to fly or as a student without an instructor. Thats a few but the list can go on.

Before we generate even more pages of drivel. The answer is simple, there is no P2 in a SEP regardless of what duties you performed.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Amen to that!!!

[Capt Kremmen]

Drivel is good. There's a lot of it on this forum !

Let me don my explicit hat.

Two. both rated on type go somewhere. It is agreed that Pilot A will, for the duration of the flight be the flight commander. He does the departure and ten minutes into the flight asks pilot B beside him to fly the rest of the way and ten minutes from destination he, P1, will do the arrival.

P1 logs 20 mins. handling time and his mate logs the balance as P2.

[9 lives]

Drivel is not good for aviation.

P1 logs 20 mins. handling time and his mate logs the balance as P2

... is drivel.

[S-Works]

P1 logs 20 mins. handling time and his mate logs the balance as P2.

FFS..... He can't. Simple. :ugh:

[PURPLE PITOT]

Now listen up chaps, i have had a great idea. All this EASA/FAA/TC/DGAC/ETC stuff is far to complicated. Let's just put the books in a big pile in the corner and make this sh1t up as we go along.

No?

Thought not.:ugh:

[BillieBob]

Let's just put the books in a big pile in the corner and make this sh1t up as we go along.Since that is precisely what the UK CAA has been doing for the past 3 years, it's probably not a bad idea. The trick is, of course, not to put any of it in writing.

[Mach Jump]

Since that is precisely what the UK CAA has been doing for the past 3 years,

They've been doing that for at least the 3 decades+ that I've been an instructor.:rolleyes:


MJ:ok:

Ps. I agree with both ST, and Bose. You can put whatever you like in your logbook, but, in a SP SEP, P2=Passenger.

[Wrong Stuff]

AFAIK commercial operations is not permitted IFR SEP in EASAland, but I positively know that i.e. local German regulations require a 2-crew for private D-reg IFR SEP, in case the aircraft is not equipped with a 2-axis autopilot and altitude hold.

Well, yes and no, ChickenHouse.

The German regulations do require a 2nd person, but only specify that person needs to be authorized to operate the radio in English. It's not actually required they hold a pilot licence. Calling it "2-crew" (and logging it as such) is therefore rather dubious and probably unjustifiable.

The details are in LuftBO § 32 Zusammensetzung der Flugbesatzung.

[ChickenHouse]

AFAIK commercial operations is not permitted IFR SEP in EASAland, but I positively know that i.e. local German regulations require a 2-crew for private D-reg IFR SEP, in case the aircraft is not equipped with a 2-axis autopilot and altitude hold.
Well, yes and no, ChickenHouse.

The German regulations do require a 2nd person, but only specify that person needs to be authorized to operate the radio in English. It's not actually required they hold a pilot licence. Calling it "2-crew" (and logging it as such) is therefore rather dubious and probably unjustifiable.

The details are in LuftBO § 32 Zusammensetzung der Flugbesatzung.

German "-besatzung" translates to crew and §32 LuftBO is about crew constitution, §32(2) states the necessity for a 2-crew with both pilots holding the appropriate licenses when performing IFR flights, with some exceptions stated in §32(3) for small aircraft. So, in principal you have to have a 2-crew for IFR, but it is not a must in small aircraft. How the regulation details are for logging these hours if two pilots fulfill §32(2)? No idea, as well as this comes together with overruling EASA "treatment".

[Citationcj2]

Sorry to revive a not so old thread, but I have a similar question.

Friend of mine owns an extra 300 and I do some flying with him. He is not an instructor, but simply an unlimited aerobatic pilot with mega experience.

I fly with him and I need x amount of hours on type for insurance to cover me.

I can fly the plane no problems but I cannot log it due to insurance requirement, so I'm not P1 yet, but with him on board I do my flying.

My question is can these hours be logged as p2( dual time ) or am I wasting my time?

Thanks in advance!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

My question is can these hours be logged as p2( dual time ) or am I wasting my time?
(1) You can write whatever you like in your log book.

(2) What you can't do is count those hours towards any licence or rating, as they don't count as P1 (because you weren't), they don't count as Pu/t (because the other guy isn't an instructor), and they don't count as P2 (because there's no such thing).

(3) Whether the insurance company counts such flying, which you're doing with the legal status of a passenger, towards their requirements or not is a matter for the insurance company - you'll have to ask them.

[BEagle]

You're wasting your time....

....unless, that is, you can suggest to him that he becomes a CRI(aeros). Hardly difficult - some sticky-pen training and 3 hours of flight instruction plus an assessment of competence. Then you could log all your time with him as PU/T.

[Citationcj2]

Some great advice guys, that sums it up so:(

I think i'll just head over to Cambridge aeroclub and get my rating there and then worry about it.

Cheers,

[ChickenHouse]

Yes, you can write the hours in your logbook, but, No, you cannot claim these hours for ratings or license issues. If it is only insurance, talk to them and ask wether they need PIC hours or accept such alternate training you receive. And further, No, you are not wasting time, independent of rating or license, as you learn to fly the beastie with your friend and that does much more real value than any piece of paper.

[9 lives]

Yes, you can write the hours in your logbook, but, No, you cannot claim these hours for ratings or license issues. If it is only insurance, talk to them and ask wether they need PIC hours or accept such alternate training you receive. And further, No, you are not wasting time, independent of rating or license, as you learn to fly the beastie with your friend and that does much more real value than any piece of paper.

Yes.

And in particular:

you are not wasting time, independent of rating or license, as you learn to fly the beastie with your friend and that does much more real value than any piece of paper.