Save a Sea King!

[heli1]

"The Helicopter Museum needs MoD to allocate a SAR Sea King to recognise the RAF SAR history.Precedent set with Moravia but DSA now says all the rest to be sold to a contractor for disposal. We want MoD to play fair with good causes ....we have the money and the transport so ideas and support welcome"

If you can help the museum contact me.

[John Eacott]

"The Helicopter Museum needs MoD to allocate a SAR Sea King to recognise the RAF SAR history.

Whilst a worthwhile project, to only recognise RAF SAR with a Sea King is not going to get 100% support from the tens of thousands of ground and air crew who operated the dark grey versions, and even less from the 771NAS SAR crews.

A duplicate of the dual operator painted Sea King they had in Falmouth National Maritime Museum would garner far more support, I would suggest :ok:

http://www.falmouthpacket.co.uk/resources/images/3522306.jpg?display=1&htype=0&type=mc3

[heli1]

Understood John and personally I would prefer a Navy SAR cab but that is being taken care of by the FAA Museum.Locally it was the RAF who have always covered most of the Bristol Channel coastline and the yellow cabs are most familiar to people.
Rest assured the Navy is well represented in the collection and the eventual SAR display will cover their activities too.

[[email protected]]

Most of the Bristol Channel???????? Who else covered any part (other than job-poaching or stand-ins)????

And why would you prefer a Navy SAR cab for the museum rather than one from the major players in UK SAR (6 flights vs 2)?

[JerryG]

Most of the Bristol Channel???????? Who else covered any part (other than job-poaching or stand-ins)????

Crab, Please leave your prejudices at home and put your support behind the valiant efforts of this thread. I visited that dual-themed cockpit in March at H.M.S. Sultan (the old Fleetlands) and she deserves to not go to the breakers,

We ALL worked hard, from BOTH services, to make the Bristol Channel a safe place to aviate or go sailing ... 771 in the Wessex from Culdrose and the Chivenor Seaking.

If you want to turn everything into conflict go register as a politician.

[Al-bert]

I must correct Crab for you Jerry - it was 9 RAF flts versus 2 RN for most of the service SAR years - just saying :ok:

[Tourist]

Incorrect.

For starters, 771 and 819 were not flights. They were Squadrons with large numbers of aircraft, unlike RAF SAR flights.

This of course also ignores Lee SAR, and most importantly the SAR flight on the back of every Warship in the RN worldwide.

The fact that the RAF never saw most of the SAR jobs does not mean they didn't happen..

[Thomas coupling]

Heli,
try and obtain the contact details of the disposal contractor from the DSA. They may 'sell' you one at a bargain price?

[Oldsarbouy]

Heli1,
Best of luck with your efforts to acquire a yellow Sea King for your establishment and if Morayvia can help in any way you know how to get in touch. Judging by the usual inter service rivalry on this site maybe you need two Sea Kings to satisfy both camps but I don't think the cartoon-like airframe as pictured above is a fitting tribute unless you want something for the kids to play on.

[heli1]

The Helicopter Museum will be very willing to display a Navy and an RAF Sea King if people would like to stump up the extra money.Some of the 771 cabs certainly have an interesting and long history ,having served in various guises for many years..but commercial sense unfortunately dictates a yellow one is the better bet for the tourists the museum relies on,especially with the FAMuseum only an hour away.
So don't fall out guys...happy to see if we can add both but overcoming MoD bureaucracy remains the same!

[[email protected]]

Well that was all too easy - they clearly don't do banter in the RN.

Try this - you can conclude from the responses that it took the RN a whole Sqn to do what the RAF did with a flight...... and a whole ship's company was required to support one non-sar dedicated aircraft on the back of a grey funnel liner.

Out of interest how many of those aircraft on the back of the boats had fully trained SAR rearcrew ?

All that pompous self-belief in the 'everyone has a SAR capability' sadly lost you a crew in the English Channel a few years ago launching an inappropriately trained crew into poor weather for a MOB. - That bit wasn't banter btw.

[JerryG]

All that pompous self-belief in the 'everyone has a SAR capability' sadly lost you a crew in the English Channel a few years ago launching an inappropriately trained crew into poor weather for a MOB.
I'm outta here. This is neither an adult, decent nor appropriate way to refer to fellow aviators trying to save a life.

[P3 Bellows]

Crab

All that pompous self-belief in the 'everyone has a SAR capability' sadly lost you a crew in the English Channel a few years ago launching an inappropriately trained crew into poor weather for a MOB. - That bit wasn't banter btw.

You have stooped to a low I didn't think even you could achieve.

The word pompous however is very apt and I think it suits you very well. Get a grip :ugh:

[John Eacott]

Goodness: all I did was suggest an equal recognition of the joint services contribution to both the use of the Sea King over the past 45 years, and the equal contribution to SAR by the Sea King.

Handbags at dawn: methinks that some here seem determined to be a little bit precious :=

[zorab64]

pompous self-belief etc

Crab, I have long respected many of your views, although you do make a habit of including variances that reduce that overall support! I'm afraid your comment above puts you straight into the League of Arrogant Idiots, frequently afflicting others of your hue. It's a shame when you besmirch the noble deeds and can-do heroism of those in a 1940s service, with the pompous self-belief of some typical Crabs from 40-50 years later.

Those who go down to the sea in ships, particularly those who fly from such platforms, are there as both a main attack system and/or a significant part of the defence shield. That they operate afloat also live by the rules of the sea, foremost, whilst using the tools of the air to make every attempt to save their fellow seafarers, should the need arise. Not being SAR "specialists", as you so pompously imply, should result in more recognition when they really put their lives on the line, rather than attract your criticism - most often, they don't have the luxury of a slow reaction time or risk assessment, as there's no-one mid ocean but them.
There are many more examples of airborne life saving than tragedy, but occasionally it doesn't work out, despite best efforts being made in the traditions of a service that has a significantly longer heritage than some others.

Greater balance, and a little humility, would go a long way to securing appropriate recognition of an airframe, of whatever colour, in whatever place, that was part of my formative aviating career both in peace & war. A more forgiving and dependable machine, despite numerous foibles, would have been difficult to find and those who flew them will remain forever in their debt, I'd suggest? :ok:

[Tourist]

I have tried to write a response to that that won't get moderated.

Can't do it.

[[email protected]]

Let's be clear - I have the greatest respect for anyone suddenly forced into a situation they are not properly or regularly trained for who achieves the aim and there have been many occasions where flying skill and bravery have overcome the odds - that goes for everyone.

However, how many pilots would launch in fog in a single pilot aircraft to search for a MOB (who had no lifejacket or immersion suit) with no appropriate sensors other than the Mk 1 eyeball? And how many commanders would allow their aviation asset to launch in that manner given the probability of detection was zero?

My actual point is that one of the vital things drummed into RAF SAR pilots (and presumably other SAR practitioners) is the recognition of when to say NO to a SAROP, regardless of the red mist, regardless of the pressure (both externally and internally applied).

I have had the 'SAR is a secondary role and anyone can do it' guff rammed down my throat many times on these pages and it is always by those who haven't done much (or any) SAR. If you are not used to balancing the risk/reward elements when presented with an urgent task and that task greatly exceeds your previous experience then caution has to be the watchword.

Good luck with acquiring the Sea King Heli 1, the dual painted one at Falmouth actually looks quite good so that might be the way to go if you get one.

[Tourist]

Crab

The aircraft Captain of the Lynx you mention was a fully trained ex 819 SAR Captain from his Seaking days.

He was also a great bloke and friend of mine from my course Seaking training.

To cherry pick an accident to try to make a point is tw@ttish.

I will resist the temptation to go through fatal yellow Seaking accidents to point out that RAF make mistakes despite their much vaunted SAR training.

[Seaking93]

Just to bring things up to date the Sea King(XV663) that was on show at the Nat Maritime Museum Falmouth and then stored at Gosport as JG found is now on show along with a line up of other FAA SAR airframes in Hall 1 at the Fleet Air Arm Museum, its been a great favourite as it was with the public at Falmouth.
Its currently on loan from the MOD so what it's long term future is I could not say.

[llamaman]

Amazing. A fairly innocuous and well-meaning post gets morphed into (yet another) Yellow v Grey willy-waving competition by the usual suspects. Its all going to be history very soon so a bit of mutual respect for those that have tried their best down the years wouldn't go amiss.

[Thomas coupling]

As llamaman said - crab you 've hijacked the thread. I know you well. Have you forgotten that I was an RN SAR pilot? Have you forgotten that I have supervised every single 'yellow' SAR pilot there is/was? Do you not realise that I, uniquely, have been in a position to compare and contrast both worlds?
Only Greg L has that same claim to fame.
The bottom line is that I have seen what 15 (serviceable) cabs, 250 people, 1 Group Captain, 3 wing commanders, dozens of sqaudron leaders, countless admin staff and millions of pounds worth of infrastructure can do well - nationally.
I have also experienced a small percentage of that 'product' - do ten times as much - globally. Mountains, oceans, war zones. 24/7, 365 days a year.
SAR is part of a naval pilots' job description. For the RAF it is an Empire. RAF SAR pilots go home every night of the week, they work 4 o, 4 off. They have bank holidays and summer breaks. They sit around for 80% of the time waiting for the only thing they can do - SAR. RN pilots spend days on end away from home in all climates, doing various flying tasks some of which is SAR. And has it been successful - they still do it and will continue to do it long after the RAF boys have handed their craft over to another competent outfit - civvies. And now, suddenly, SAR no longer seems a black art anymore.
Never was, never will be.

I respect you, you are a very competent pilot but please, please call it a day now "J" time to close that book and look to your future.:ok:

Sorry for stealing the thread.

[[email protected]]

TC - I know I might have overreacted on this thread and I put my hand up to that, what started as banter got a bit out of hand.

However, your simplistic view of the RAF SAR Force is disingenuous and completely ignores how many people from other forces, who have done all that punchy war around the world stuff, there have been in the SARF.

You make it sound like everyone in RAF SAR has only ever known SAR which is patently untrue.

Whilst I know you are proud of your pedigree, you know I am proud of mine.

Generally, every RN pilot I have ever flown with has been a good bloke, but many have a greatly inflated opinion of their own professional capability - partly because they are always told (and tell themselves) how good they are. It's a bit like many F4 drivers were compared to the Lightning jocks, one bunch were very mixed but told you they were awesome, the others were awesome but were far more humble.

Less than a month left for the last RAF SAR flight - I still think it is a sad waste.

[Tourist]

TC - I know I might have overreacted on this thread and I put my hand up to that, what started as banter got a bit out of hand.

I guess we can take that as an apology

...but many have a greatly inflated opinion of their own professional capability - partly because they are always told (and tell themselves) how good they are..


Oh, the irony.

At the end of the day, SAR is just hovering with nobody shooting at you.

[heli1]

Good..now we've got that over with can we get back to saving a Sea King for the museum.Letters of support to The Helicopter Museum at WSM please for forwarding to the appropriate MoD Minister.:ok:

[3D CAM]

Blimey, that got out of hand rather quickly!!:sad:
If the MOD are not forthcoming, how about approaching Bristow for one of their SAR S61s that were parked up at Norwich, the last time I heard?:E

3D

[rugmuncher]

"All that pompous self-belief in the 'everyone has a SAR capability' sadly lost you a crew in the English Channel a few years ago launching an inappropriately trained crew into poor weather for a MOB. - That bit wasn't banter btw."



You really are a **** aren't you.

Comments like that won't help you.

What happened that night was tragic, end of.

[Bravo73]

Good..now we've got that over with can we get back to saving a Sea King for the museum.Letters of support to The Helicopter Museum at WSM please for forwarding to the appropriate MoD Minister.:ok:

Please excuse my naivety but, if you could find an airworthy example, would it be outside the realms of possibility to keep it that way?

I'm thinking charitable donations (a la XH558) to pay for the running costs and I imagine that there might be sufficient ex-Sea King crews and engineers willing to donate their time and experience.

I appreciate that a Sea King doesn't have quite the same allure as a Vulcan but surely it would be welcomed on the airshow circuit?

[Bucaneer Bill]

Current maintenance and upkeep of Yellow Sea Kings and Grey Sea Kings at Gannet SAR is carried out by AgustaWestland under the provisions of the SKIOS contract. SKIOS is Mil 145 accredited. Please read this link:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/348191/RA1006_Initial_Issue.pdf

Since the Haddon-Cave enquiry and the formation of the MAA things have changed considerably with respect to regulations concerning aircraft maintenance and many other things. I am not quite sure in my own mind how you would be able to comply and then continue to comply with current regulations for a flying an acquired Sea King without attracting considerable expense and diving through a helluva lot of fiery hoops.
It's a lovely idea but I think you would need an awful lot of money to make and continue to make it happen.

[Bravo73]

It's a lovely idea but I think you would need an awful lot of money to make and continue to make it happen.

No doubt it would be very tricky and expensive. I imagine that it would require some sort of sponsorship or partnership with Agusta Westland. Do they have a Westland museum at Yeovil?

[[email protected]]

What happened that night was tragic, end of.
yes it was and if you don't ask yourself why, the lessons will never be learned.

At the end of the day, SAR is just hovering with nobody shooting at you. the just reiterates everything I have said.

[rugmuncher]

[email protected]
Quote:
What happened that night was tragic, end of.


yes it was and if you don't ask yourself why, the lessons will never be learned.


Oh trust me, im fully aware of why and what happened that night.

You just didn't need to reference it such an ass-hole manner !
:ugh:

[heli1]

Short answers to the above....
Bravo 73... The museum couldn't justify flying a Sea King unless it had a duplicate and in any case the engines are likely to be removed by MoD due to their spares value. Knowing the challenge faced by others to get an ex military Wessex past the CAA,I hate to think what the reaction and costs would be to get a Sea King authorised,even with AW backing.
3D Cam....the museum did approach Bristow but the U.S. Owners decided they were too valuable .I believe the last ones are now in the USA.

[Bucaneer Bill]

The Helicopter Museum. (http://helicoptermuseum.co.uk/westland.htm)

[[email protected]]

There is a SAR Whirlwind flying - don't know if that is anything to do with you Heli 1 - and when it was at Chivenor there was talk of doing the same with a Wessex. Having all 3 airworthy would be awesome.

[Clever Richard]

Tourist, You stated, 'I will resist the temptation to go through fatal yellow Seaking accidents to point out that RAF make mistakes despite their much vaunted SAR training.'


I didn't know there had been any fatal RAF Sea King helicopter crashes. Please elaborate.

[heli1]

For the record Bucaneer Bill it is not the Westland museum but an independent charity with a lot more than just Westland products....Donations I'm sure will be welcome...a fiver for each time someone slags off either the RAF or the FAA ?!

[Lush69]

I have it on good authority that the Fleet Air Arm are going to retain a 771 Sqn Mk5 Sea King to mount as a gate guardian at Culdrose to mark it's service to the local community and RN SAR.

Maybe the RAF could have crab@SAAvn stuffed and mounted by the gate of RMB Chivenor to mark his own contributions to RAF SAR and these forums!!
:)

[Tourist]

Didn't say crashes, I said accidents, Dick.

I do, however remember a non-fatal crash. (that's the secret with banter, keep it fun:))

XZ599 on 16 August 2001 is hardly a shining example of great training considering the job of SAR is just hovering........

[[email protected]]

Oh, I thought we had finished this derail.

Didn't say crashes, I said accidents, Dick. so crashes aren't accidents then?

If you want to start listing who has crashed more (non-fatally to keep it funnnnn) or had more accidents in Sea Kings, I think you will definitely find the RN at the top of that list.

I can probably get an ASIMS DASOR digest of them if you really want but a cat 5 at Yeovilton, in the recent past, demonstrating advanced single engine techniques is one that sticks in my mind.

And that one wasn't dynamic rollover, unlike the one by 2 students on a mutual solo during the OCU which is what you refer to in 2001 I presume.

[Tourist]

Crab

Dick asked me to elaborate.

I did.
Please keep up.

Incidentally, of course the RN has had more accidents in Seakings.

Do I really have to explain?

Ok, here goes.

1. We had orders of magnitude more of them.
2. We did real proper tricky flying in them including going to war. (have you heard of that? It's the thing other military pilots do. Falklands, Iraq, Afghanistan etc)
Some of it involves not just hovering while not being shot at......

You must also remember that the training is necessarily somewhat more challenging since they have a real role to carry out as well as SAR, which, as you know is just a secondary role...

Incidentally, nice try on the "2 students"

Remind me what job one of those "students" was going to?:ok:

[drugsdontwork]

This thread is plumbing the depths. Competitive willy waving using the context of fatal accidents is a disgrace. Many if not all of us have faced circumstances that could have ended just as badly, irrespective of the robustness of machine, supervision, ability or weather. Military flying carries risk, as does SAR. Do either for long enough and you will find yourself in some sticky situation or other. You may use your superior skills to dig yourself out of it or you may just be lucky. Either way gloating that your system is superior to someone else's because you have less accidents, and most particularly identifying a specific fatal as evidence is crass and insensitive as well as statistically naive.

It's wrapping up now. There are lot of SAR bases closing, lots of sadness from crews and public alike. It's not a time to dwell on crashes, accidents, incidents or whatever. We should all be reflecting on the achievements and success of generations of military crews, not highlighting each other's blackest moments.

[[email protected]]

Dick asked me to elaborate.

I did.
Please keep up.
No you didn't

The rest of your post is more trumpet solo

[DX Wombat]

As a member of the public who would like to see one preserved (and one whose father served in the RAF) can I just say that had I been in need of rescue I would not have cared less which service provided the helicopter and crew as long as one appeared in time and succeeded in rescuing me.
Now for a somewhat frivolous suggestion - why not save one, paint it bright pink/orange/purple/whatever service non-specific colour you fancy and provide plenty of visual information on the subject for visitors to the museum? Oh, and make up a number to paint on it so it can't be traced back to a particular service. :)

[Gwyn_ap_Nudd]

A couple of on-topic observations.

Aircraft which have been taken out of service have a cash value to the taxpayer and HM Treasury's rules - not MoD's - make it very hard to justify giving them away. However sympathetic MoD staff might be to the idea of preserving Sea Kings there are limits to the help they can give. Some will certainly be preserved - a yellow one is going to the RAF Museum, a Mk4 to the FAA Museum and there may be a Mk5 gate guardian at Culdrose (but keep your fingers crossed on that one). Others may well be preserved privately - all it needs is the money to buy them.

The multi-coloured Sea King previously mentioned in this thread ironically isn't actually a SAR aircraft - it's a HAS Mk6 (yes, OK, it will have had a secondary SAR role but that wasn't its primary purpose).

[Fareastdriver]

a yellow one is going to the RAF Museum
a Mk4 to the FAA Museum
Mk5 gate guardian at Culdrose
The multi-coloured Sea King
There is also an ex RAF Sea King in the north east of Scotland.

That's five; why do you need to Save a Sea King!

[Bravo73]

That's five; why do you need to "Save a Sea King!"

Er, because they are a museum of, er, helicopters? :ok:

[John R81]

So - radical thought here - can you not simply buy one? How much?

[cyclic]

Support Our Sea King | morayvia.org.uk (http://www.morayvia.org.uk/?q=node/4)

[Seaking93]

FAAM at Yeovilton also have a pinger currently in store XZ574

[heli1]

John R81. Keep up...the Heli Museum has already said its willing to buy one ..just wants equal treatment to Morayvia for a direct sale and not to have to buy from a middle man adding his slice of profit.

[John R81]

I have kept up.


What is the cash difference, and look to the public to raise the difference.


That would be a useful application of time / effort rather than the "spinning wheels" event this thread has become.




A couple of years back I had the opportunity to get a complete Wessex. Posted on here to ask who would want one / what would they do with it, with the intention of then donating the machine. The thread turned into....... exactly what we have here. I gave up and let the Wessex go.


So. Do we carry on with the this theatre or try to do something constructive?


FAoD: I was not offering to fund the difference this time.

[QTG]

Personally, I'm glad to see the back of the old dog, and its amusing habit (OK it happened twice to the Mk 1, and the first one was mine) of breaking its own rotor blades - the result of which you can see below.

I can honestly say that in the ensuing 40-odd years and 16,000-ish hours flying helicopters, I have never again experienced the sense of foreboding which existed when sitting in a 40ft hover, somewhere over a freezing North Atlantic in the middle of the night, waiting for the next hilarious joke to be played by the autopilot/transmission/fuel computers etc.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj225/ec135t2/scan0001.jpg

[[email protected]]

They do say never fly the Mk1 of anything! Perhaps that is why we didn't take it on until the Mk 3:) However a VRS failure was still very exciting at night in the hover!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

This thread is plumbing the depths. Competitive willy waving using the context of fatal accidents is a disgrace. Many if not all of us have faced circumstances that could have ended just as badly, irrespective of the robustness of machine, supervision, ability or weather. Military flying carries risk, as does SAR. Do either for long enough and you will find yourself in some sticky situation or other. You may use your superior skills to dig yourself out of it or you may just be lucky. Either way gloating that your system is superior to someone else's because you have less accidents, and most particularly identifying a specific fatal as evidence is crass and insensitive as well as statistically naive.

It's wrapping up now. There are lot of SAR bases closing, lots of sadness from crews and public alike. It's not a time to dwell on crashes, accidents, incidents or whatever. We should all be reflecting on the achievements and success of generations of military crews, not highlighting each other's blackest moments.


Hear hear. Amongst the most sensible words you have ever uttered DDW ;)

[[email protected]]

I think the thread has moved on.

[heli1]

The thread may have moved on but the Sea King help hasn't.
Sounds like all are going to be sold off to a commercial agent who will now doubtless want his commission and add to the transport costs.
Anyone at Chivenor who could fly via Weston and accidentally go u/s before retirement end of this month?!

[[email protected]]

The aircraft was out on a shout at 05:50 this morning so it's probably u/s already!!

[Fareastdriver]

sold off to a commercial agent

Possibly to be used as spares by other countries that have been conned into buying the Westland version. They are no use to S61 operators; S61 components were built to be bolted together, not assembled with a hammer and jemmy.

[Self loading bear]

Possibly to be used as spares by other countries that have been conned into buying the Westland version

Not so many left and considerable supply of spares from other replacements:
Germany: to be replaced with NH90??
Norway: to be replaced by AH101
Australia: already sold all?
Belgium: to be replaced by NH 90
Egypt: max 6 left
Pakistan max 6 left
India: max 29 left
But ofcourse as this will be fairly free market, everything according demand and supply

SLB

[Bucaneer Bill]

Trevor Smith 01869 256827
DSA MST2,
Room 8,
Building 9, H Site
JSC Services
Bicester,
Lower Arncott
OX25 2LD

Email – [email protected]

And you had better get a wiggle on cos the Nogs are now buying two Mk3As

[heli1]

Bucaneer Bill...Already in contact but he won't sell one direct to the museum......says we will have to go through their agent..Withams I believe. Naturally we object to paying more just to line their pockets!

[Bucaneer Bill]

There are two things you can do then - one sees you with a Sea King and the other doesn't.

[heli1]

BB...Thanks for the sympathetic support!!!:ugh: