Lowered requirements Emirates

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Word on the street habibis, is the first 380 DECs are on there way. I kid ye not. that will improve everything :ugh::ugh:

SyB :zzz::zzz:

[Slaveaway]

Applied two months ago, still no call. 2500 Total 400 hours in the E175. What are they looking for?

[donpizmeov]

A full 400 hours on the jungle jet and still no call?
That's terrible.

[SOPS]

My God. People apply with 400 hours on jets, their applications are submitted for 16 hours and they are not getting calls, what is going on.:ugh::ugh:

[McQwerty]

For the record it took about a week and a half to hear back. Our experience is vastly different. I only have 6500 hours with 3000 of that being DH8 command. I am not very experienced because I don't have jet time.

[GMC1500]

What do you think we've been doing with cadets since the beginning?

[glofish]

Cadets are whole different story. They get a huge amount of training, it's subsidised by the country. I don't dislike the guys, they are well trained, however very synthetically. I can't trust them the way i do with expat FOs.

You would never be able to convince EK to give so much equivalent training to lower qualified applicants.

There lies my main concern: Training.

They will probably start with a new syllabus for TP and similar newbees, as they might do with non-rated DECs (:mad:). But that means a lot more SIM hours, even more trainers absorbed, even less leave for the line guys, until some supremely witty desk driver will slowly and silently turn back the wheel to where training is today, pretending that experience shows it ample and sufficient for EK. The GCAA will rubber stamp anything anyway. Everything to keep metal flying no matter how. No one shall lose face!

On the line we will be confronted with many new nice colleagues who however need a lot more coaching and have outstanding training holes.
Mind you: Not with trainers who can block one nice flight a month (preferably to my home town, blocking 20 out of 30 days for my bids) and the nice privilege to have assured 5 days off in a row and appended to the next ones on the next roster. (Don't get me wrong, it's not an attack against trainers, it's against unfair privileges).
No, this time it will be with shattered skippers like me, working 90+ hours, through 12 hours of time difference with minimum rest and days off, having an outstanding leave balance of 30 days.

It's simply drilling very tiny new holes into a slice of the cheese. But even tiny ones can add up to the big ones the situation has already drilled into others.

[WB1900]

Hi Guys
I followed your posts quite a bit

What i can see is that there are still People out there how have not the little bit of an idea what TP flying is.

First yes Qantas or South African express is flying in limited areas, still serving on an entriere continent to do not see a lot of different weather.

Ask a guy from Europe or Canada and it will be a lot of a different story.

In Europe and Canada are TP guys available with multiple 1000 hours on both seats. They serve an average of 4 to 6 sectors a day in 5 days patterns. Do you really believe that a big Jet captain on the fat wide body can come even close to that experience if you start looking into flown sectors.

a typical TP commander makes a T/O or LDG decision up to 6 times a day, with all the problems you can expect from it. Yes the airplane is smaller, there are less Pax on board, but the turn times are limited accordingly. So in-fact time to make the decisions on ground is as limited as they are on a bigger airplane. Having said that, these guys do not download FPL or print a ATIS msg. on the center console, and the performance calculations are done old school, mostly without fancy laptops.
Flt Bee, Wideroe, SAS, Croatia and many others are flying all over Europe, mostly small airports with sometimes extremely performance limited runways and sometime really funny weather. If you have time one day open some charts in LIDO and look what kinds of airports are out there and consider a TP guy is flying there in bad weather. And he does it on a daily basis.
the average EK pilot is lucky to do one DE-ICE and 2 low vis appr. a year. sum it up and will what a TP makes in one season.
TP Fly

CAT 2 from 100ft manual.
CAT3a from a 1000ft manual with HGS
in eng fail condition manual up to 1000ft, AP limit

just for the none believers! A Dash 8 400 has the same approach speed like a A330 and with prop anti ice on even 20kts more.
imagine going with that speed to 1800 meter runway, after a 6 degree loc appr.

It climbs with full load up to 6000fpm initial climb(you get up to 4000 maybe 5000ft) ,up to 10000ft with max 3000, a bit more if you squeez it and than with up to 2500fpm to 16000ft. unfortunately from 16000ft the performance of the props start decreasing due to the density.
Impressive number is
25000 in 16 min or 14nm 12000ft on 60000lbs To weight

consider this so expect a TP pilot to well more relaxed on workload provided that this guys have from there skills a way better cockpit scan and workload management.
It is an EK thing that to make it rocket science and it the EK instructors how believe that there is only one way to rom.


Do you really believe that 16hr straight from one continent to another, whilst sleeping half the time gives you judgment experience.
Lets say it that way. What the wide body pilot does is not more than an enhancement from previous skills.
Fact is also that certification requirements of civil commercial aircraft provides certain things which have always the same impact on weight and size of an airplane and therefore if you have understood the theory and you start anticipating the size, all the aircrafts are the same.
Conclusion - if you give a TP guy a training and the candidate has the right attitude he will be as good as anyone else.
1 PAX one a TP deserves as much safety as 500 do on a 380, responsibility cannot be counted with PAX numbers, each pilot says differently should think about his own attitude.

thanks for your time

[White Knight]

I don't often agree with you Glofish... But I'm with you here.............

[The Outlaw]

Glo has nailed it...this time its gone too far, they have deluded themselves to believing this crap because it fits a perceived solution to the crises....why not just put your wife/girlfriend/dog in the right seat..itll probably come to that soon enough anyway...the dilution of product integrity is the same in all counts.

[dhc8d]

Guys i don't really get it what's the problem with TP pilots???????in some airlines you have F/O's that go from ATR straight to A330 without problems
Because u started your carrer on TP you can't go to heavy jet?

[sluggums]

FFS dch8d, pay attention... It's not the TP guys that are the problem, it's an airline that's suffering from chronic shortages and doesn't have the resources to train said pilots. It's not rocket science, it's merely a lack of facilities to train guys into a system that's falling apart...

Most of us flew TP's and then went onto jets. Mind you, some of the 'I've got 400hrs TP time, applied 12 hrs ago and haven't had a response, what's going on?' rubbish, doesn't exactly inspire confidence...

[seasexsun]

Emirates have already a lot of local cadets that go from the piper 34 with 200 hours total to the RHS A330 or B777, so please, stop bull****ing on turboprops guys with a lot of great experience. having myself started on tp a few years ago then medium jet i can tell you that flying a jet is a lot easier and a lot more boring. Now if emirates crews are modern slaves desesperate to fly 1000 hours of bigbig jet all over the world, based in the desert,mthen that's another matter.

[SOPS]

Read comments above yours SeaSex man. The concern is the training given, not the person.

Glofish, you got it all correct.:ok:

[dhc8d]

What do you mean by the training given?when you do a type rating it´s the same syllabus for everyone no matter your background no?

[SOPS]

No it's not. There are many diffrent training syllabuses, but I will let someone else explain it, if they can be bothered.

If you take the time to read this thread, it is explained.

[Trader]

dhc8d- the issue is not TP pilots. It is low houred TP pilots. If they hire a TP captain with 5-6000 hours he would be the IDEAL candidate- in my opinion. He can fly, he can make decisions and has been flying in the wx, up and down for quite a few years. Again, imo only, I think he is a great candidate and better that the 2500 hour FO off a jet.

But that is NOT what they are looking at. They are looking at TP who barely have an ATPL. That is getting desperate.

The issue is always the LEVEL of experience.

Cadet pilots cannot even be compared because the amount of training and checking they go through is many orders above what the 1500 hour pilot with 200 hours on a TP has been through.

[nakbin330]

I'm old school ... ex military, bush flying (various singles and light piston twins), corporate (small turbo props) and then the 707. Transition to the 707 was a big jump for me but not impossible to overcome in a relatively short period of time. Flew 'heavies' for seven years before landing a 744 position.

The transition to glass was a challenge but again, was overcome with time. 744 > 330 > 777. The 330 transition was another challenge ...

The training environment in which one finds themselves is all important, as is the age of the pilot. The youngsters soak it up but the older one is, the harder it becomes. I've been in that position and seen others in it.

EK training is of a very high standard. There is very little spoon feeding. One has to be 'on it' from the start and the pressure doesn't stop until one is checked out to the line. EK is not an outfit where it pays to rest upon one's laurels either.

Recurrent sim is always just around the corner and many fall foul of the system if their discipline, initiative and perseverance has waned. It's called resilience here, and you'd better bring a lot of it with you.

One is crucified by the workload but at the same time given no slack because of it.

As I mentioned earlier, the training standard is high and one needs to not only ingest information as if distributed by a fire hose, but retain it ... all of it, all the time.

One's experience, language skills, technical aptitude, age and ability to withstand an unpleasantly high level of stress will either hinder or help.

Five sectors a day in a TP, or 15 000 hours on heavy jets, everybody starts here at 'ground zero'. Your previous life means very little. All it will do is help you to cope, or not, as the case may be.

[bia botal]

Look guys it's simple, as an employer you develop a wage package that will on a whole match the terms and conditions that you expect an employee to sign up to, as time goes on naturally the terms and conditions change and so naturally the package has to change with it, if the expected work load for example increases then as an employee one would expect in good faith to see a dollar value to match said increase! Someone who is then considering taking employment with a company can then look at the what he or she can expect in return for there time and experience and decided if they think the package offered is good enough or not!
So what do we see happening now at EK, requirements have been lowered to rock bottom! Why is this? Is it because there are no more suitable jet time candidates out there? The answer to this is clearly no! The reason why EK has throw the net out wider is purely because what they have it offer in return for what you are going to give doesn't balance, all the guys at Ryr and easy etc look at what's on offer, consider time to command and are clearly not impressed! therefore EK are having to chase after people who will accept what is on offer, and I'm sorry to all you TP guys out there but that's it as I see it in a nut shell!
And yes I'm well aware that there is any amount of good TP guys out there!
I like many others have worked for many airlines and we have all seen very good captains and very ordinary captains, very good FO's and very ordinary FO's, and it's no different in Emirates, so sooner or later the dice will roll and a not so good captain will be paired up with a not so good new FO and off into the night they'll go to some ****ty airport in the middle of the monsoon season and the holes "glofish" speaks of, big or small will start to line up! Boy oh boy this forum will light up then!

[rmcdonal]

It climbs with full load up to 7000fpm up to 10000ft and than with up to 4000fpm to 16000ft. unfortunately from 16000ft the performance of the props start decreasing due to the density.
Crap.
Full load up to 7000ftpm? A fully loaded Q400 would be pushing 2000ftpm to 10,000ft on a good day. Even an empty Q400 Doesn't get 7,000ftpm at sea level.

First yes Qantas or South African express is flying in limited areas, still serving on an entriere continent to do not see a lot of different weather. I think you underestimate the weather in either of these countries. Yes they may not spend much time covered in snow or ice, but when was the last time you saw a squall line stretch 800km? Europe has some fun strips, but they are surrounded by full ILS alternates.

I like that you are standing up for the TP guys, but your argument has some stunning holes in it.

[speedbirdd]

Hi...I applied to EK late last month. All I have received after submitting the application was that,they will get back to me within six weeks. If not then they will not cocider me this time. I have an ICAO ATPL and Level 6 ELP,total 2400 Hrs with with 2100 on ATR and safety and audit experience,which is ongoing.

Is some one able to shed some light.

[Payscale]

So? You applied. They told you to wait. After 6 week they will either call you or not. Took me two year to get their attention 14 years ago. Be patient because without it you won't last in the ME

[ibelieveicanfly]

Well said Payscale.

Because there is lower requirements those new guys with not a large experience believe that it is open doors for everyone,that everything is due to them before they have proved anything!and this is valid nit only here but generally speaking

[QCM]

WB1900...quoting..."Do you really believe that 16hr straight from one continent to another, whilst sleeping half the time gives you judgment experience.
Lets say it that way. What the wide body pilot does is not more than an enhancement from previous skills"

Try an engine failure or a smoke around 80°N during 207mn ETOPS in poor winter conditions and then you'll tell me about so called judgement experience!

Each job has its own threats and difficulties for sure,but don't minimize one to greet the other.

[olster]

The current turbo - prop pilot love - in is aviation's version of political correctness. Suddenly, as though a revelation, there is a whole breed of highly proficient tp pilots just waiting in the wings to be whisked into the front seat of a global 777 operation and all will be expert and brilliant. I have no view on tp pilots good and or bad but I will say that flying a tp from Cardiff to Dublin is not the same as operating a wide body halfway around the world. The amazing handling skills of this neglected group notwithstanding, the operation and management of a long haul wide body are more complex and challenging. As from a previous post we hear that a Q400 climbs at F16 rates but this is manifestly nonsense and all part of the talking up of the tp argument designed to fit the agenda. Of course a tp pilot of average ability can fly a 777 but as we all know it is not as straightforward as advertised; certainly a novel approach to training will be required. Interesting times.

[Deep and fast]

Will all sky gods please state how they developed their god like status when slagging off those they see as beneath them!

Try an engine failure or a smoke around 80°N during 207mn ETOPS in poor winter conditions and then you'll tell me about so called judgement experience!


Well, vital actions followed by qrh would be a start. Weather, well that should have been determined as suitable IAW your ops manuals and updated as such on route. Location, well if you have the ETOPs approval, risk assessment has been carried out by the manufacturer and the approval bodies concerned. Contingency actions in your operating airspace should be briefed for such flights.If you don't like flying so far north then don't join a long haul company.

By the way, I'm not a TP driver, but I have actually flown to northern Siberia in winter as well as extensively in Russia, Europe and Middle East as well as North Atlantic crossing. So can I be deemed suitable or is my aircraft too light to transition to wide bodies.

But the real issue is.......quite frankly they are not paying enough to attract pilots to join, peoples buckets are full and so are leaving and new aircraft are arriving. An unsustainable situation that the managers are gonna have to face up to or risk having their position terminated when the ruling powers go for scalps.
Jeez how many ryanair guys work there and they only had Europe experience and has that brought the airline to its knees?

Focus people, the problem is money, the problem is rostered hours, the problem is leave and the problem is quality of life. Let the company recruit and train, that's their job not yours!

[glofish]

Let the company recruit and train, that's their job not yours!

Very funny, indeed.

But y'know what? WE have to fly what they recruit and train, not the company. Hence the interest and disrespect for what you just stated. :ugh:

On another note: I do respect your experience, just as much as i do for Ryan Air pilots who do well, so you could be very much suitable for EK, maybe not your attitude though.

Our recurrent syllabus recently provides time for FO enhancement modules, with line orientated scenarios with them running the whole show. Most of them come out of these experiences a little more humble than you seem to be .....

We sky gods may have developed our god like status by experience and training first .... and only then focusing on the problem called money.

[Deep and fast]

But y'know what? WE have to fly what they recruit and train, not the company. Hence the interest and disrespect for what you just stated.


The same in any company mate, I've flown with some high hour utter liabilities! Hours or type doesn't provide any guarantees.

maybe not your attitude though.

What the attitude that understands that if I as a pilot want to set recruitment minimums, that's the tail wagging the dog. If you want to run things your way, start your own airline. A bit like the DEC who brings his old company SOPs with him because he doesn't like the new ones. You have to deal with the realities.

Maybe you have the problem attitude not me. The recruitment world is changing from the past 8 years. It's not a pilot shortage, more a constriction of supply and any company will do what they need to do to keep the schedule running. I remember the days airlines were going to flying clubs and offering to pay for everything to get people in the right seat.

If your in the training dept and don't like the thought of training these guys, resign your training post. If the recruits don't make the grade out on the line then ASR them. If your not captain enough to be the captain, well that's a choice you need to address.

Harsh words maybe, but your a pawn in this game not a King. Take the recruits, swallow the additional workload in the short term and hope for more realistic and tolerable rosters in the long term.

Oh buy the way Glo, what types and which areas did you operate in prior to Emirates? Just asking, I want to be a sky god one day........not!

GloFish® fluorescent fish are born brilliant! oh it seems you had genetic help to be brilliant!

[olster]

Well said Glofish. Reduced requirements for pilot recruitment is a means of opening the pool of potential new-hires and ergo not having to pay more for experienced pilots ( they've dried up anyway). The inevitable sarcastic responses are predictable ('sky gods etc.') but the fact remains that the operational challenges on a global operation are more complex. With maturity some of the contributors to these threads will realise this; having excellent handling skills when landing your dash 8 / ATR etc into Jersey while laudable but are only a small part of the picture. Your anecdote reference complicated, yet realistic LOE / LOS scenarios and subsequently chastened crew members is apposite. As a member of the pc pilot community myself I would never disparage a fellow group of professionals, including the C150 flying instructor but nevertheless one has to be realistic.

[Deep and fast]

Olster, I said

Will all sky gods please state how they developed their god like status when slagging off those they see as beneath them!

I didn't specifically call anyone a skygod but

Glofish said

We sky gods may have developed our god like status by experience and training first .... and only then focusing on the problem called money.
So I guess HE thinks he is.

You said

Reduced requirements for pilot recruitment is a means of opening the pool of potential new-hires and ergo not having to pay more for experienced pilots ( they've dried up anyway

So what is a company supposed to do? Pay more to the existing guys and still be short?

Airlines have always had a training element, Easyjet put 200hrs guys in the seat just as monarch BA etc, I don't like it if there are more qualified applicants although I've not applied myself. The CTC model has taken over in the UK and cadets have always featured in Europe also.

What is important is QOL money and health. The proffesion attitude to flight operations should be a given if you chose this career.

Have I applied, no. There just isn't enough financial incentive yet.

[donpizmeov]

EK hasn't hired experienced guys for ages. There was this same gum gnashing when it dropped to 2000hrs jet, and just as many threads for 2000hr wiz kids swimming in the holding pool wondering when their time would come.

Same same but different?

[glofish]

Deep and fast

You include sarcasm (skygods) in your contribution but have a hard time discerning it in others. Psychiatrists have a term for that.

By the way, you might not know: In most respectable airlines recruitment and training is partly done by active pilots. At EK they are actually fighting the erosion of quality by not letting any self proclaimed "proffesional" pass, and they will have to withstand pressure from the company.
Thus my disdain for your sloppy comment.

Stay where you are, both sides will be better off, because EK will not up the antes to your heights.

[Deep and fast]

Glofish, psychiatrists have many terms. I could say you have egocentrism!

But as always, true dianosis requires evaluation but a clinical professional.

I said
Let the company recruit and train, that's their job not yours!
Which you didn't seem to like much.
And you said
By the way, you might not know: In most respectable airlines recruitment and training is partly done by active pilots. At EK they are actually fighting the erosion of quality by not letting any self proclaimed "proffesional" pass, and they will have to withstand pressure from the company.

So really, what's your problem? Find the guys who are interested and evaluate. As for the evaluators, if you can't take the heat then don't be on the recruitment panel. I have seen nowhere that the actual level of ability is being reduced, only the experience level. Only those able to pass the assessment get in! What the hell do you expect the company to do?
Are the whole BA 777 fleet pilots gonna apply just to help out your crewing issue? No.

So get real, take the best of the available pool of qualified pilots and train the bits that are currently missing from their repertoire.

As for me, maybe I will join, be fun to goad you on a 17 hour Panama :E

[expat400]

It's easy to find posts every year from 2005 and onwards describing EK:s applicants as "being scraped from the bottom of the barrel" or "third world applicants".

Where are they today?

[Deep and fast]

Sitting much further up the barrel?

[nolimitholdem]

I love it when guys like Deep and fast charge into a topic with zero time in a company to tell all the guys who've been there a decade or more, how it is. And then accuse them of egocentrism. Wow.

Thanks Deep and fast, your contributions are very valuable. Please continue to enlighten us, while we wait for EK to raise the remuneration to a level that will "entice" you. Then, at last, we could gain more gems of knowledge from your obviously experienced self, firsthand.

Until then, we wait anxiously with anticipation.

[Deep and fast]

So the pilots determining recruitment policy in Emirates is the way forward? You guys are funny.

Reality, you need bums on seats. I know enough guys working there who tell me so they can have easier rosters and get leave.

It's not just about enticement for me, you want narrow and wide body jet guys? As for me, I have no interest in BSJs, just cash for retirement. And I'm better off where I am at the moment. But the world of work is a fluid situation.

Oh and the ppruners as always don't always prove to be a representative scientific sample group. Some say Harry the cod has Stockholm syndrome. The probable reality is, it seems to work for him and that's the real trick in this industry. Sorry to drag you into the topic skycod.

[cerbus]

It doesn't matter how many suckers, er New Hires come to Emirates the company will only hire enough pilots to allow for us to fly 92 hrs a month with 30 days leave a year.
The reason we are so short now is because of so many pilots that have left the company. Probably approaching 150 pilots this year so the company will only try to hire 200 or so pilots. 150 to make up for the attrition and 50 or so to fill the expansion.
It is very telling that the company can't even hire 200 pilots this year. Hence the lower requir,nets and standards. If Emirates paid us what other airlines make the company probably wouldn't have any problem filling the ranks.
Does anyone think that is gong to happen here? Me neither.

[Capt. Flamingo]

It seems that they are throwing a wider fish net out there.

A380 NTR FO:

ICAO ATPL

ELP 4

AviationJobs.Me Flight Crew: A380 Non Type Rated First Officers Emirates UAE (http://www.aviationjobs.me/2015/09/a380-first-officers-emirates.html)

Link on above website takes you directly to the emirates careers site.

Reminds me of an Eagle's song...

[misd-agin]

Flamingo - the job posting date says Jan. 2014. If that's correct this is hardly timely news.

[Manubada]

What are the age limits for entry as an FO?

Thanks. Manu'

[adolf hucker]

Deep and fast.

While what you say is undoubtedly accurate, I don't think you'll have much luck convincing the incumbent egos in EK of the reality of the situation. To point out that company is quite capable of finding suitable candidates by lowering some of the arbitrary thresholds somehow diminishes their fragile self-esteem and the status of their position.

Unfortunately, a lot of the established captains in EK are some way removed from having their feet on the ground probably as a result of living the Dubai dream and having successfully navigated their way through a pedantic regime into the LHS. Humility is often not the product of those 2 factors. Add in the fact that many are trapped by the cash, fed up with the roster and in denial about their health and it's no surprise that they don't like being told that they are not universally revered after all.

[donpizmeov]

I see that chip on the shoulder didn't reduce after you left Adolf. I hope you find an airline that suits eventually.

[Dropp the Pilot]

...is the song the "The Last Resort"? That HAS been rolling around in my head the last few months. "I don't know why".....

[Deep and fast]

The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.

:ok:

[nolimitholdem]

And the tool just keeps going, offering cheap platitudes as a substitute for experience.

[Deep and fast]

Feel free to pick up on each and everyone of my statements re Emirates and put forwards an intelligent and reasoned arguement to back up your point of view because at the moment I only hear gum knashing as another poster said.

[CaptainProp]

Air Berlin apparently looking to get rid of "up to 200" flight deck positions. More cannon fodder for the carriers in the Middle East.

CP

[ExDubai]

Air Berlin apparently looking to get rid of "up to 200" flight deck positions. More cannon fodder for the carriers in the Middle East.

Let's see how many of them will move to their largest shareholder in AUH

[harry the cod]

Deep and Fast

Pilots who are part of the recruitment team do not determine the policy. That's done by HR. What they do determine, however, is the quality and standard of the candidate who makes it through to interview. It's a combined effort from actual line guys, long term sick pilots who've been assessed for their suitability for recruitment and TRE's who play an integral part in the simulator assessment. Experience levels for applicants has indeed been reduced but the standards, we are led to believe, will remain the same.

From my own involvement with the recruitment team, I have no reason to believe that goal is not being achieved, despite the increasing pressure from above. The pilots and examiners know only too well that the consequences of not retaining those minimum standards would impact on all throughout the training process and also on the line. It would be a false economy if an increasing number of people were failing after joining.

Personally, I'm not disagreeing with a lot of the points you make, just the way you make them.

Harry

[Deep and fast]

Great and constructive response HTC

What gets me is the constant denigration of pilots that don't meet the historic profile of Emirates recruited pilots. There really are some very good guys out there.

Recruiting minimums have always been fluid but some find it difficult to accept. I'm glad to hear that standards are being upheld.

Americans and Canadians have a different aviation industry and a greater GA community and have some guys who think you should be 10000 hours and 50 years old before a command, totally different in Europe. It's all about perspective.

Not dissing North Americans before someone takes offence!

[TangoUniform]

So tell us Harry. How is it now that during the sim evaluation the standard is, is this candidate trainable not whether or not he performed the manuveur correctly? If that is not lowering standards, I don't know what is. A major change in the evaluation of candidates. :confused:

[ExDubai]

... is this candidate trainable...
It would be interesting to get to know what is their definition of "trainable". At the end of the day it all comes down to training, training, training and more training. And there are my doubts if EK is able to handle this.

[harry the cod]

TU

Nothing really changed from simulator assessments 15 years ago. Departure, handling, circuit or two and engine failure. Check that the candidate has the basic flying skills and uses CRM management tools. Not looking for a polished performance, just one that improves throughout the 30-40 minute session. Many have failed the sim which is why it's done early on in the interview process. There is a minimum criteria for passing......and it's not just if they have a heart beat and don't crash!

Some recent feedback from our own 'handling' sims proves that you don't need to be Chuck Yeager to work here!

Harry

[TangoUniform]

No argument there Harry. But you are probably aware that the assessment has changed officially. Maybe, in some ways more realistic, but the requirements in assessing are being changed and being "lowered".

[jack schidt]

Personally, I would like to think that any "professional" pilot would have the natural or learnt capability to fly a basic sim detail in any commercial cockpit. I know that people do not understand the aircraft that they are completing the sim ride/test/assessment on BUT it is the eye - scan rate - brain processing procedure - hand to control input - desired outcome that matters. No matter what aircraft one has flown as a "professional" pilot, manipulating any aircrafts controls to achieve a safe and desired output should be the basic fundamentals of any pilot.

An engine failure in any twin requires the same procedure of hand eye coordination. Scan rates and VOR tracking is the same in any aircraft. Circuits would need to be briefed and understood I would agree as jets fly wider patterns than props, but being flexible and adapting to changes is part of a pilots specialised abilities.

I had never flown any of the EK fleet types before I did the EK sim assessment and yet it just required concentration and adaptation of known skills to achieve success. To me, I for one am glad that recruiting standards are not lowered as it should be expected that any pilot flying a commercial aircraft today should be able to perform these manoeuvres. Emirates is not training "new pilots", it wants to train commercial pilots to fly a new type and I believe that if a pilot displays "minimum acceptable commercial piloting skills" then they have a chance to further develop those onto other aircraft types.

Good luck to those who make it through, to those who didn't sorry but in fairness it was in your hands and no one else's.

Jack

[WB1900]

With you totally
The point I like to bring up
Of course the q400 does not fly like a f16
I am sorry for that because the post was not meant to be out at that time

What I like to say is only these guys diserve a fair chance to continue in their career and should not be turned for reasons like
Aircraft not big enough, not fast enough , not heavy enough etc.
They do their job as professional as all the big jet flyers, and yes they usually have more options in alternates around
Yes at N83 the clocks are ticking a little different, totally agree but these are things everybody with the right attitude can easily learn. That is just adopting to the environment.
And disagree to say it needs much more, it only needs a different point to start handling the issue. Which everybody can learn, but you can't learn it if you are humiliated because your career as a pilot started as TP pilot, done by pilots who simple had luck to bypass TP flying

Conclusion is that everybody started somewhere to build his experience, and a pilot is not better or worse just because he started on a different side of it
Thanks

[CamelRustler]

That's just it. EK used to be a job you finally achieved after putting in your time in puddle jumping, then regional then narrow body. EK is now no longer a place pilots seek as their career goal but more for a stepping stone to a better place. The SIM is proof of this. 25 minutes performing turns and climbs VS the 2 hour full monty at Korean. EK is no longer interested in attracting the best just attracting someone who can legally fill the seat.


CR

[glofish]

What I like to say is only these guys diserve a fair chance to continue in their career and should not be turned for reasons like
Aircraft not big enough, not fast enough , not heavy enough

I agree. If you would read thoroughly what has been said (my rant about reading comprehension ....), then you would understand that we do not disagree with you in principle.

What bothers us, is what CR states:

25 minutes performing turns and climbs (new EK sim ass session) VS the 2 hour full monty at Korean

It shows that "deserving a fair chance" can have two faces:
Assessing the right guys irrespective of provenience vs. having to fill seats quickly.

It sort of raises doubts about the reassurance from the training department that they do not lower standards. Two faces again:
Giving the required higher amount of training vs. having to fill the seats quickly and cheaply.

[framer]

EK is no longer interested in attracting the best just attracting someone who can legally fill the seat.
If that is true there will be a very large price to pay. With the number of flights EK flies they won't be able to avoid having their recruitment standards tested in the real world.

[dieana]

Does anybody know when will start to call to DEC 777 in Emirates? Type rated or Not Type rated.


Thanks

[tom330]

Lowered requirements.. and the so called claims made here on "pilot shortage".. and yet 2 of my ex colleagues got turned down for the interview and assessment, both from the United States. :rolleyes:

[Ldggrup]

Incidents like fire etc cant be blamed to the crew.. Infact they were real professional pilots.. But in indigo there is lot of back door entry and many incidents which usually don't make to headlines cuz of the kind of money and connections they have..for example

On 11 January 2011, Flight 333, piloted by Captain Parminder Kaur Gulati, landed nose-first at Goa International Airport, damaging the landing gear and putting the aircraft at risk of disintegration. Prior to the landing, the captain had caused the aircraft to descend too steeply, against the recommendations of aircraft manufacturer Airbus.[43] It was later discovered that the captain used forged papers to obtain an air transport pilot license (ATPL), after failing the test as many as seven times.[citation needed] She had also flown the return flight back to New Delhi when the aircraft's systems showed problems with the landing gear.[44]



Let's not compare your US standards right now. That's because you've got so many people which is why there is a long waiting time; as a result your higher requirements.

People touch Dash 8, A320, B737, B757s right seat as low as 250 hours and not even one accident till date in the last seven years since the boom happened. Thus with right training, SOP procedures and experience, such matters can be served well.

We have captains who are as young as 24 flying left seat A320 ( Indigo Airlines has got over a 100 airplanes, Along with many other carriers ) that fly almost over 10 million passengers in a year in this country and around the world.

India of course is your biggest market now which is why the ME3 is also investing and wants to invest in shares in the airlines out here. EK also highly respects the Training Standards of Indigo Airlines per se.

It's amazing how the dynamics have changed.

[STEXUP]

..and if I ever go to India..I'll use trains rest assured.

[1975]

Hello there.

Have any tp guys been hired to Emirates, 5000 hours right seat Fokker 50, EASA ATPL english L6, wondering if it is a waste og time to apply?

[fatbus]

If you think it's a waste of time , don't apply There is always someone to take your place.

[Commuter0815]

@camelruster

Korean, really? That's the company you choose as a airline for top pilots? I just heard horror stories about this :mad:. And it is not because of their high flying standards(they proofed otherwise already in real flying).

Korean....:oh:


@1975

I would suggest that you go for it. You are fulfilling the requirements. L6 is as well no disadvantage.

[1975]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, I am asking if they are or are planning to hire tp guys, or if it is just a game. Is the demand so high for new pilots that it is necessary?

[ExDubai]

You'll still have to pass the sim and interview, that has not changed and the standards are the same (well done the recruiters for not buckling under the pressure from COO to get arses on seats if they have a licence!!)
According to the jungle drums this is something what will change in the foreseeable future.

As you wrote, they are desperate....

[Commuter0815]

@1975

Sorry to disappoint you.


Well, fill out that form(as all of us did), invest 1 hour of your life and you will see if they put you in the holding pool. I went in there within 48 hrs, some widebody command on a old widebody, rest lots of command on medium jet. Plus 3000 FO medium jet. With that eperience I was for a while unsuitable to be a FO with EK, now it went down and I tried.

So, give it a shot. If not, then maybe anyway this company might be the wrong thing for you(never met someone who bothered filling out a application).


Regarding the EK interview. Well, I did it early 2000 already once(and yes, I did pass) but then decided to stick with my good old european airline. Unfortunately a bit later they folded(spare me the irony) and I had to start a very unpleasant journey through different airlines/operators. Eventually I ended up with QR which was probably the worst what could happen to me and I left them after a bit.

Comparing the old EK interview with QR there was not much of a difference, QR looked a bit less in CRM group plays. Sim in both was easy, most likely the easiest point in both interviews. The old EK (andQR) interview was not very hard, point.

I am curious if I will make it again if called in, it seems it changed a lot and requires actually some kind of preparation(as most interviews need nowadays).

I understand the need of the old guys to point out that their interview was much harder(it's just a human thing to show off to that newbees, right?) and that the new guys should just consider themself lucky that the requirements have been lowered that much over the past few years.

Well, no.

I did a lot of interviews and of course times change, so do the requirements. Sometimes there is a pilot shortage, sometimes the market was flooded with recruits. My first company changed their requirements all the time(as EK is doing it right now and over the past few years), sometimes you just needed to be able to piss in a straight line to join, then again they wanted university qualification, later that dropped again. A lot of other airlines did the same, it called adapting to the market. Of course, with that strategy, you have pilots with very different skill levels within the company.

I can understand that someone doing the same thing for 14 years(post, previous page) is tired of it. I am tired of my current employer doing a thing for a while now and we got tons(!!) of applications, at least that's what we hear on every official meeting with HR. See, it is everywhere the same. Take it or leave it(which seems as well the motto of my current employer). The market will regulate it(but unfortunately we got already to many of this P2Fly kids around everywhere).

[AviatoR21]

I applied and within 2 hours went from short listed to an interview date.

[GoreTex]

at one stage EK has to come up with overseas bases, they can't lower the requirements further to fill the cockpit, as soon as one of the other ME carriers does it they are screwed

[Commuter0815]

@GoreTex

This discussion exists since the early 2000's(maybe even before).

The problem with introducing overseas bases(Europe/US/Asia) is that most likely EVERY pilot want'S to have one of this bases and you create war within the company.

The old guys insist on "grandfather rights" to have this new opened bases, the new joiners would only join if such a base is guaranteed....

Over all, I don't think that would work and the ME carriers know about that.

Unfortunately the bloody pilot bunch(us :)) is a very strange group of professionals. Very greedy, always want to have the better deal, then still complain about it and looking for even greener places to go.
Simply nobody really can please the majority of us - that's my experience of nearly 30 years of airline business and somehow I even slowly understand some management point of view about our workgroup(the pilot "haters").

[1975]

Thanks for the reply and advice