Allegiant air incidents

[Sailvi767]

It's funny no one has commented on all the issues allegiant airlines in the US is having. They appear to be on the same path as valuejet and worse then some of the budget Far East carriers talked about so much here. Their latest incident last weekend had their VP of flight ops flying a passenger flt to a airport that had been notam'd closed months in advance without enough fuel to divert to a airport 70 miles away. This VP is said to be highly critical of crews who are involved in the slightest incident including firing a Captain in June because he initiated a ground evacuation after both flight attendants and airport fire fighters reported smoke in the aircraft.

[Sailvi767]

Relevant ATC tape. Since the airport was closed for airshows very little tower chatter. Go to 12:40 on the tape. At that point they switch from enroute ATC trying to get permission to land. At the very end there is a short communication where tower clears them to land but advises a trailer is past the hold short line.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kfar/KFAR-Twr-Jul-23-2015-1730Z.mp3

[ATC Watcher]

To the Capt discharge : reading relevant NOTAMs today becomes a challenge , and mising something among the garbage is easy.

Yesterday I made a VFR flight plan from Germany to Holland and the automatic NOTAM briefing I received for that route was 9 pages long that included all the security advices for Khartoum, Damascus , Baghdad FIR plus the Yemeni airspace situation, plus TACAN bearings unlocks ( whatever that is) in various military airbases I was not even flying close to ,and dozens of Crane erections with their relevant GPS coordinates.

Is it the same in the USA ? NOTAM everything to cover yourself ?

On that issue it is difficult to understand an IFR flight being cleared by ATC to a closed airfield, or are ATC in the USA also not getting briefings on NOTAMS ?

[Sailvi767]

Notams can in fact be difficult based on the numbers at major airports. Fargo ND only had 8 Notams in effect and this would have been the first one.


FDC 5/5699 ZMP ND..AIRSPACE FARGO, ND..TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTION. DUE TO THE U.S. NAVY BLUE ANGELS, THE U.S. NAVY LEAPFROGS, THE USMC HARRIER AND VARIOUS OTHER AERIAL DEMONSTRATIONS, EFFECTIVE 1507231700 UNTIL 1507232200, 1507241700 UNTIL 1507242200, 1507251600 UNTIL 1507252200, AND 1507261600 UNTIL 1507262200. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 91.145, MANAGEMENT OF AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS IN THE VICINITY OF AERIAL DEMONSTRATIONS AND MAJOR SPORTING EVENTS, AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN A 5 NM RADIUS OF 465430N0964859W OR THE FARGO /FAR/ VORTAC 360 DEGREE RADIAL AT 9.4 NM, SFC-16000FT UNLESS AUTHORIZED BY ATC. MARK RINGHAM, PHONE 701-866-9078, IS THE POINT OF CONTACT. THE FARGO /FAR/ ATCT, PHONE 701-235-8894, IS THE COORDINATION FACILITY. 1507231700-1507262200EST

The more relevant issue however is Allegiant's policy of flight planning with the absolute minimum fuel. The flight was notified by enroute control the airfield would be closed and did not have enough fuel to divert to a airfield 70 miles away or just hold for 20 minutes and land at Fargo.

[ATC Watcher]

The more relevant issue however is Allegiant's policy of flight planning with the absolute minimum fuel
That I agree fully. We have had some of those involving one low cost operator here in Europe too a few years back.

[skyship007]

I thought all airlines in the US were required to have a qualified dispatcher check the notams, so the dispatcher involved will be in trouble, not the captain. Unless he failed to read the printout!

Surprised it did not show up as a TFR on the Nav display.

When you buy a ticket with a bottom end budget airline, they should allow you to pay more for items like extra fuel and a fully sober or awake captain!

Glide approaches should be in every sim or base check.

[mustangsally]

There is another person involved in the planning. The dispatcher is equally responsible for proper flight planning.

[Sailvi767]

Dispatchers are required to do that and there was a TFR. TFR's do not show up on any airline nav displays I am aware of. That high tech stuff is reserved for private pilots and light aircraft.

[MrDuck]

Heard the tape on the local news this morning a couple of times.

Pilot clearly says he doesn't have fuel for the 70 mile diversion to GFK, can't wait the 20+ minutes until landing, but then manages to wait just fine and lands after the end of the airshow practice.

In other words, it sure looks like the flight crew got caught in a lie.

So what would be the outcome?
ATC can be heard on the tape getting quite cranky, in their position many I think would meet the flight at the gate with a large piece of pipe.

Or is this common, in which case I ask how ATC can tell a real emergency from an exaggerated one?

[Airbubba]

To the Capt discharge : reading relevant NOTAMs today becomes a challenge , and mising something among the garbage is easy.

Yesterday I made a VFR flight plan from Germany to Holland and the automatic NOTAM briefing I received for that route was 9 pages long that included all the security advices for Khartoum, Damascus , Baghdad FIR plus the Yemeni airspace situation, plus TACAN bearings unlocks ( whatever that is) in various military airbases I was not even flying close to ,and dozens of Crane erections with their relevant GPS coordinates.

Is it the same in the USA ? NOTAM everything to cover yourself ?


Yep, in the U.S. there is page after page of obscure NOTAMs written in cryptic 1930's teleprinter format. I've certainly been dispatched to an international airport that was notamed closed at my ETA. Or, should I say, the airport was open, maybe for helos and such, but there was no suitable runway open for landing a widebody. I had a sharp coworker, she took another look at the 40 plus pages of paperwork enroute and flagged the error which I had hours earlier signed off on.

It was a real gotcha in my opinion. A long term closure for construction on one of the two suitable runways coupled with an oddly worded paragraph about a two hour closure for rubber removal on alternate Thursdays on the other suitable runway. The two notices were separated by the customary many paragraphs of cranes, nonstandard signs and unusable navaid radials. Don't know how I missed it. ;)

We were able to bump up the cruise speed and maintain high speed below 10,000 and things worked out with seconds to spare. As I took the aircraft and turned off the runway I could see the maintenance crew coming on at the other end.

I thought all airlines in the US were required to have a qualified dispatcher check the notams, so the dispatcher involved will be in trouble, not the captain. Unless he failed to read the printout!

Believe me, it's always the captain's fault as well. And I've learned not to write things up to try to prevent a reoccurrence.

The company turns the event report over to the feds and you might get a letter and maybe some 'non-punitive' extra training. And in at least one case I am familiar with, an ASAP safety report doesn't protect you because since you signed the flight plan, it was a willful violation. Maybe I'm getting paranoid and cynical but as time goes on, I put less and less into writing while at work.

Their latest incident last weekend had their VP of flight ops flying a passenger flt to a airport that had been notam'd closed months in advance without enough fuel to divert to a airport 70 miles away. This VP is said to be highly critical of crews who are involved in the slightest incident including firing a Captain in June because he initiated a ground evacuation after both flight attendants and airport fire fighters reported smoke in the aircraft.

Hopefully, the fired evac pilot will eventually get his job back, I think the Allegiant pilots are in that infamous thug union, the IBT. Since 1952, every Teamster president has been indicted on federal felony charges except the current leader, James Hoffa.

Hey, youse gotta problem wit dat? :ouch:

[MrDuck]

Quote:
Their latest incident last weekend had their VP of flight ops flying a passenger flt to a airport that had been notam'd closed months in advance without enough fuel to divert to a airport 70 miles away. This VP is said to be highly critical of crews who are involved in the slightest incident including firing a Captain in June because he initiated a ground evacuation after both flight attendants and airport fire fighters reported smoke in the aircraft.


I didn't pick up on the corporate rank of the pilot, but I still have a math problem with the above.

1. He was offered a diversion to GFK, 70 miles away. Declined due to stated lack of fuel.
2. He was told there was 20+ minutes before he could land at FGO, said he couldn't wait that long, he was bingo in 3-4 minutes, as I recall.
3. He was told he'd have to declare an emergency to land at FGO and some info on the closure NOTAM. Suddenly the pilot on the radio replies basically "never mind" and waits the 20 minutes to land.

So, is it possible he didn't have the fuel for GFK?

What would you have done?

[misd-agin]

It would not take 20 minutes to divert to a field 70 nm away. So the guy tried to bully his way into the airport by saying 'emergency' when no emergency existed.


But he shouldn't worry. Our airline had a pilot manager get violated by the FAA. No problem, he didn't miss a day of work.


Chief Pilot in the left seat, director of Safety flying as FO. There should have been a NOTAM for that!

[NVpilot]

At a real airline, dispatch control would have been all over this and the crew would have been aware of the pending closure, crews at Allegiant often arrive at the aircraft 45 minutes or less prior to scheduled departure and are expected to read all the pages of notams and push on time?

I put the blame on the Allegiant's management. :cool:

[ironbutt57]

that Capt IS Allegiant management...VP felt ops...the very person who is quite happy to terminates pilots for errors..

[P6 Driver]

Content removed

[RobertS975]

As we all know, there have been disasters where one of the root causes was a failure to declare an emergency... Avianca B707 on Long Island comes to mind... ran out of fuel after holding for JFK.

[misd-agin]

Robert - agreed. But with more than an hour of fuel, and a nearby alternate, this is more of an example of 'gethomeitis' trying to overcome piss poor planning.

[ironbutt57]

Allegiant Air execs at controls of flight that landed with low fuel | Las Vegas Review-Journal (http://m.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/allegiant-air-execs-controls-flight-landed-low-fuel)

[DownIn3Green]

Sailvi767...Do you or have you ever flown for a 121 carrier? If yes, then you are just stirring the pot. If no, then you don't have a clue and shouldn't be commenting...

The 45 minutes reserve is for this exact situation. And when you eat into that, and when you are over a suitable airport, you land.

Doesn't matter who is at the controls...

[Sailvi767]

20,000 hours for a part 121 carrier. They arrived at a closed field with a easy divert 70 miles away. This is just one in a long ugly string of problems at this airline. They need some changes.

[ironbutt57]

the point is...the field was NOTAM'ed to be closed, they did have fuel to divert when they arrived over the destination...they chose to hold and "bargain" shall we say with ATC to try and hide the fact they took off and headed there in the first place...something the both of them would have hung out to dry any of their line pilots for doing....

[Didacts and Narpets]

The FAA has known about the problems for a long time but looked the other way.
After National shutdown the Vegas FSDO had a major coup getting AAY from the FAT FSDO. The issues have been apparent from day one. MG has long history in the airline biz and everyone knows his time at Valu. I do not blame any of the crews but AAY should have been shutdown years ago. There are no excuses by management or the FAA why this CONTINUES to happen.

It does seem an accident with loss of life is almost imminent. The lawsuits will be huge. How will they explain there way out of it. If anyone flies on AAY you must be crazy.:ugh:

[obgraham]

I've flown on AAY a lot -- they go where I need to go.

But I'm not surprised that their disorganized systems and total disregard for customer service at their gate functions, and nonexistent telephone customer service, has migrated to airside "issues".

Until recently, their cabin and flight crews were a refreshing relief from the majors. However, eventually their business model will catch up with them. I hope it does not require a serious incident.

[Sky Slug]

I'm familiar with the area.

GFK is 15-20 minutes from FAR at 3000 feet on an MD-80. They could've set up for a sweet 79 mile final. At worst they could've gone to Bemidji, which is around 50 miles away different runway headings, or to MSP.

This is ValuJet all over again, with the same dolts who ran that company.

[JammedStab]

FAA scolds Allegiant for having to make emergency landing with low fuel

The Federal Aviation Administration has scolded Allegiant Air for an emergency landing at a closed airport in Fargo, N.D., in a ruling that appears to contradict the airline's statements about the flight. The FAA issued a reprimand called a "letter of correction" to the Las Vegas-based airline saying the July 23 flight from Las Vegas to Fargo "did not appear to have adequate fuel" for such a trip, according to information released this week.

FAA scolds Allegiant for having to make emergency landing with low fuel - The Las Vegas Sun - Discussion on Topix (http://www.topix.com/forum/business/transportation/TFE252IP6BVTHUB2S)