Rt pratical exam help

[luda171]

Hi guys,

so ive got my RT pratical exam soon, so ive been brushing up on everything and have a question about diversions.

If i was working a LARS and the weather deteorated at my destination aerodrome and wanted to divert to my alternate how i would i express this?

Would i ask to transfer to my initial destinations freq and tell them i am going to divert or will the LARS do that for me?
Also when i change to the diversion aerodrome they wont know im coming on 1st call so in rt speak how do i ask to land with them?

Thanks in advance

[Genghis the Engineer]

For the sake of argument, let's say it's Farnborough RADAR, and you're aiming to Popham, but there's a load of crap viz come in from the south, best diversion Odiham.

(You) Farnborough radar, G-CD
(Fbro) G-CD pass your message
(You) G-CD, my visibility en-route is deteriorating and I will shortly be unable to maintain VMC. Request diversion Odiham.
(Fbro) G-CD, roger, standby

(expect a short pause whilst they talk on the landline)

(Fbro) G-CD, I've spoken to Odiham and they can accept you. For Odiham squawk NNNN.
(You) G-CD Squawk NNNN
(Fbro) G-CD, contact Odiham on 119.225, they have your details.
(You) G-CD, Odiham 119.225, thanks for your help.

From there, it's fairly straightforward. As a rule, military airfields like Odiham will just vector you on radar all the way in (making them great safety diversions, apart from the fact that they often don't have AVGAS), whilst civil airfields are more likely to just treat it like a normal arrival.


If you're unsure however, just use plain English, speak clearly, and if necessary route clear of poor conditions first, just stay out of controlled airspace without clearance.

If things are going totally pear-shaped, don't be afraid to ask for a suitable diversion - although in that case many services may transfer you to 121.5 as they have both better locating equipment, and a better database of every tiny landing strip in the UK.

G

[luda171]

Ok thanks very much

[116i]

Shouldnt the first point of contact be:

(You) Farnborough Radar, G-ABCD

As this is the first contact made?

Then it can be abbreviated to G-CD??

[dagowly]

It should only be abreviated once the controller has abbreviated it as they may have a similar call sign on frequency and may chose not to.

With regards to your exam, make sure you've got relaying an emergency message and getting a training fix up to scratch. They seem to be pretty popular.

[piperboy84]

And if vis is diminishing or weather is moving in on you faster than you can get the diversion organised just circle while you figure out your next move

[Genghis the Engineer]

Shouldnt the first point of contact be:

(You) Farnborough Radar, G-ABCD

As this is the first contact made?

Then it can be abbreviated to G-CD??

My assumption was that the OP were already in contact and they'd already given that - but if this was first contact, you'd be absolutely correct.

G

[Fly-by-Wife]

Shouldnt the first point of contact be:

(You) Farnborough Radar, G-ABCD

As this is the first contact made?

Then it can be abbreviated to G-CD??

I suggest that you re-read the original question:

If i was working a LARS

So GtE is quite correct.

FBW

[fujii]

(You) Farnborough radar, G-CD
(Fbro) G-CD pass your message
(You) G-CD, my visibility en-route is deteriorating and I will shortly be unable to maintain VMC. Request diversion Odiham.
(Fbro) G-CD, roger, standby

(expect a short pause whilst they talk on the landline)

(Fbro) G-CD, I've spoken to Odiham and they can accept you. For Odiham squawk NNNN.
(You) G-CD Squawk NNNN
(Fbro) G-CD, contact Odiham on 119.225, they have your details.
(You) G-CD, Odiham 119.225, thanks for your help.


Living in the Southern Hemisphere with an ATC background, the phraseology seems a bit quaint and non standard. I am not criticising, I am just curious about differences. Here it would be more like the following.


(You) Farnborough radar, G-CD
(Fbro) G-CD Go ahead.
(You) G-CD, due weather, request diversion to Odiham.
(Fbro) G-CD, standby

(expect a short pause whilst they talk on the landline)

(Fbro) G-CD, squawk NNNN.
(You) Squawk NNNN G-CD
(Fbro) G-CD, contact Odiham on 119.225, they have your details.
(You) Odiham 119.225 G-CD. (Thanks, non standard but nice.)

[piperboy84]

I'd imagine the "go ahead" is the big no-no here and in most parts of the world, it could be mistaken for some kind of instruction or acceptance

[fujii]

PB you're right. Eight months retired and things change. I just checked our AIP and it states that the only reply needed I'd the aircraft callsign followed by yours.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Wow. How to make something pretty simple, complicated :rolleyes:

Another example of two peoples separated by a common language......

[Heston]

Rubbish. Fuji's "ssouthern hemisphere" phraseology would work perfectly well in the UK. What are you guys on about?

[dagowly]

It works once you pass your exam however it should be 'pass your message'

[2 sheds]

luda171


Particularly as you are discussing the EXAM, my two-penn'th about the example proffered above:




Your READBACKS (of SSR code and frequency change) should END with your callsign, not start with it; and
Forget garbage such as "thanks for your help" - you are supposed to be demonstrating accurate communication.

2 s

[Whopity]

If i was working a LARS and the weather deteorated at my destination aerodrome and wanted to divert to my alternate how i would i express this?G-CD diverting to Odiham

You don't call him Farnborough, he knows who he is and you have already established communication. He will probably tell you to contact Odiham.
Would i ask to transfer to my initial destinations freq and tell them i am going to divert or will the LARS do that for me?
If you are not talking to them, how would they know you are coming?
Also when i change to the diversion aerodrome they wont know im coming on 1st call so in rt speak how do i ask to land with them?
When you call them you commence your call with your request. G-ABCD request weather diversion to Odiham. From that they will know you want to land there.

Sounds like you need some instruction before going anywhere near an RT Test.

[Mach Jump]

Hi Luda.

Just for my own interest, could I ask whereabouts you are in the flying training?


MJ:ok:

[Johnm]

Whopity pretty much has it. You can call your original destination once safely on the ground. If you are uneasy about weather your workload will be increasing so you want the minimum activity on the radio to get you what you want.

[Howto communicate]

My understanding of the word 'contact' from an ATC perspective means that the flight has been coordinated between the present unit, and the next, hence the next unit will have full flight details. The initial call to the next unit would be 'Odiham G-ABCD' (reg c/s phonetically, of course).

The antithesis of 'Contact' is 'Freecall'. Full flight info, in this case passed by the pilot, to the next unit. Practically speaking, the initial Freecall would wisely be transmitted 'Odiham G-ABCD'. The controller may then ask for your details by return, or after a short period of standby, when they are ready to accept your details. Even in these circumstances, a reply with the full PHACER treatment might not be welcomed, and the controller, particularly in a radar environment will ask for your flight details they need at that tactical point in time. Eg quite often a squawk would be issued negating the need for the pilot to pass position info over the RTF. Area FISOs, eg London Information, may also selectively request info, but generally anticipate the full PHACER message.

However, controllers who are dealing with such a scenario as described so far in this thread, may use the word 'Contact' along with the phrase, 'they have your details', and this is simply to prevent the full PHACER treatment to the next unit, which may well be a very busy Area FISO, or radar controller.

Sorry this is a bit long winded, but stems from several decades of my own private flying, and working in operational ATC units at Centres and Aerodromes in the UK.

I just hope this helps!!! If not, errrm, thanks for your time!!!

In all aviation training I have received, and given, the phrase 'go ahead' must not pass your lips.:= ALWAYS 'Pass your message'.:ok:

Question from me, if an individual needs RTF Phraseology coaching/brush up on the ground are there any particular rules about who can give that training? I had an AOPA ground instructor certificate, and for several years gave RTF training under the supervision of the FTO RTF Examiner. That was a few years ago now. Can anybody enlighten about any current regs about this?

Thanks.:)

[dagowly]

Contact means a full radar handover has been completed between the 2 agencies. Continue means your details have been prenoted not including your type of service. Freecall means no details have been passed.

[Howto communicate]

...is phraseology that can be used via any ATCO at an air traffic agency to indicate 'your details have been passed', not just radar 2 radar.

Some helpful controllers/FISOs to pilots who fly relatively infrequently, will add 'they have your details'. IMO these controllers are helping such pilots as the thread starter, and their fellow ATC colleagues, of whatever their location/unit or piloting experience.

Adding notions of 'prenote' are pure ATC issues, which, of course I fully understand, and help the thread starter, not a jot.

My previous post was in the name of providing some guidance to an individual, who is obviously conscientious, and keen to learn, and took the trouble to ASK.:ok:

Notions of 'prenote' are pure ATC issues, and have other forums on PPRUNE, and elsewhere for discussion.:)

[Maoraigh1]

I ve either learned something new or re-learned something I'd forgotten, as regards contact, continue, and freecall
A very useful group of responses. (2000+ hours solo, 30+ in 2015)

[Westley]

I e just done my practical RT,
And I asked the aerodrome before my destination if they could give me a weather report for my destination, basically they said conditions were ok,
So I changed frequency and radio ahead, went through the normal stuff, they replied "report final" But when I thought it was all going well and nearly finished after reporting final, they said there was a aircraft on the runway with a collapsed nose gear, (crafty buggers) so I had to do a bit of quick thinking and reroute to the previous aerodrome.

Be prepared!
But I wouldn't worry too much, it's very easy if you have a basic understanding of the radio.

[Genghis the Engineer]

My recollection of doing the RT practical (I probably took it in the first 3 years after it first came in in the early 90s mind you, so much may have changed) was that so long as you were clear and didn't foul up the mayday call, the examiner would be pretty forgiving.

G

[Background Noise]

The OP wants to pass an RT test. He needs to know the correct current phraseology from the CAP - currently amendment 5 to Edition 21 (effective 28 May 15) - not advice based on personal experience.

[2 sheds]

My recollection of doing the RT practical (I probably took it in the first 3 years after it first came in in the early 90s mind you, so much may have changed) was that so long as you were clear and didn't foul up the mayday call, the examiner would be pretty forgiving.

Clearly!:)

"First came in in the early 90s..."?

2 s

[Talkdownman]

it first came in in the early 90s
I question that, because I did mine in 1968…!

[Whopity]

the initial Freecall would wisely be transmitted 'Odiham G-ABCD'. The controller may then ask for your details by returnNot according to CAP413,Initial Call – VFR Flight
3.28 Normally, the initial call to an ATS unit should only include the minimum
information needed to establish:
1. The service that an enroute flight requires; or
2. The clearance/information that a joining or departing flight requires.
Westbury Approach, G-ABCD,
Request (type of service)

Westbury Tower, G-ABCD,
Request join

Odiham G-ABCD
Request diversion to Odiham

[Howto communicate]

I did mine in 1983.

The practical exam did change slightly around 1989/90 to get rid of airways joining and leaving RTF procedures after some lobbying from the PPL schools that a PPL without an IR could not legally fly in airways.

Since then JAA and EASA have gone and come, so whether the thread starter may now need to learn the above procedures, I do not know.

[Howto communicate]

Hi Whopity.

At the time of my initial UK RTF practical exam, and for a number of years thereafter the only 'Shall' with regards to a request at initial contact was 'Request MATZ penetration'.

Given the aviation regulatory hegemonies' coming, going, coming, "Waiting for Godot" stylee, does 'Normally' now mean 'Advised' or 'Shall'?

IMO, unless there is a specific requirement for phraseology at a particular juncture, then any RTF Examiner who marks down a candidate for an initial call that contains Unit c/s, followed by Flight c/s only is being churlish and pedantic.

Dear thread starter, thanks for taking the trouble to ASK.:ok:

[Pull what]

Well Luda are you suitably confused?

First comment is please do not think all RT examiners have mastered CAP 413, they havnt!

You may want to consider

Student flights
2.33 On initial contact, student pilots who are flying solo shall use the callsign
prefix ‘STUDENT’.

Flying instructors should be well aware of this call, especially those who claim to understand duty of care!!

As 99% of people I examine have not got a PPL(which I would imagine you havnt) I expect them to use the above. It also proves they have read CAP 413 which clearly some of tbe respondents to your post havnt!!

If you treat the test as a practical exercise why would you just request a diversion to Odiham because of weather? Your first call in fact would surely be a request for the weather at your chosen destination, little point diverting to an airfield where the weather conditions may be worse than your original destination. Using the controllers knowledge and information is also an important part of CRM. The controller will most likely have a much better idea of suitable alternatives weather wise than you will.

You should also really know how to temporarily leave the frequency and obtain weather from the FIR frequency(not part of the RT test)

If you are receiving a LARS service your diversion call would need to include the word 'request' if you were inside controlled airspace but is technically not required if you are in Class G airspace but it would be advisable to check with the controller before making large heading changes.

How would your alternate know you were coming on first call?

Your first call should make that clear

3.28 Normally, the initial call to an ATS unit should only include the minimum
information needed to establish:
1. The service that an enroute flight requires; or
2. The clearance/information that a joining or departing flight requires.

But the exact detail of that call would be dependent of what type of airspace you were going to have to transit/penetrate to get to the alternate.

"Request join" may be suitable at Popham but might not go down so well at Manchester International!

Every possible call is not contained within CAP413 so some common sense is needed too, unfortunately that can be difficult to find on the internet sometimes.

Forget garbage such as "thanks for your help" - you are supposed to be demonstrating accurate communication. Quite correct and instructors, especially, should not be encouraging this sort of RT

You should also read this before your test

https://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20130121SSL08.pdf although some of it is out of date

I should also add that a weather diversion isnt necessarily an emergency, it could be just that the crosswind was out of limits. Select a diversion that is appropriate to your situation, a busy military airfield may not be best pleased to see you as a result of a non emergency diversion.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Regarding "thanks for your help", etc.

Yes, don't do it in an exam.

Out there in the real world, if the RT bandwidth is quiet, the occasional pleasantry does no harm.

If the bandwidth is busy, use absolutely minimum number of words.

G