Rubbish radio calls.

[Flyingmac]

I'm hearing more and more iffy R/T. Could this be down to the fact that training can now be given at unlicensed airfields? Or is there some other reason?

[ak7274]

Training at unlicensed Airfields shouldn't be an issue. There is are 2 tests to pass, 1 Theory and 1 Practical.
Perhaps Pilots just don't practise RT enough.
Having heard thee on't owd wireless Mac, I do know what tha' means.
;)

[SX983]

Totally agree. Brevity seems to have gone out of the window, as does common sense.


The last thing anyone needs when joining an extremely busy circuit is to have the radio blocked by some lengthy discourse from an aircraft passing 10 miles abeam- all too common now.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The last thing anyone needs when joining an extremely busy circuit is to have the radio blocked by some lengthy discourse from an aircraft passing 10 miles abeam- all too common now.
I'd only call in passing if I thought the radio operator sounded lonely!

[Steve6443]

The last thing anyone needs when joining an extremely busy circuit is to have the radio blocked by some lengthy discourse from an aircraft passing 10 miles abeam- all too common now.

Which sort of makes the case for a (radar supported) FIS over a larger area eliminating the need for aircraft to contact A/G stations when passing by, requesting a basic service....

[Pace]

Thats not the point it was always like that not a recent thing.
A lot has to do with experience and nervousness. you get the PPL who talks very slowly often giving their life story rather than being snappy, precise with only the relevant detail.

Its strange how you can almost tell the experience of a pilot by the radio calls and confidence and may I add authority the caller gives when making those calls.

Too many are in awe of the units they are talking to.

I can remember crossing Birmingham and ATC gave one clearance to one guy who sounded very unsure and convoluted and basically kept him well clear while another was given a clearance through the zone which they then updated to IFR.

You only have to fly IFR through London to see how incredibly busy ATC are and how short and snappy the radio calls are and have to be from professional pilots to realise the huge difference

So be short precise snappy and authoritative in those calls especially if you want to be taken seriously

[2 sheds]

eliminating the need for aircraft to contact A/G stations when passing by, requesting a basic service....
You do not get a Basic Service from an A/G unit - it is not, by definition, an ATS unit.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Too many are in awe of the units they are talking to.

Quite so!

Be brief

Be professional

Do not treat the radio as a primary flight control.

[Flyingmac]

It's the safety aspect of some of the calls which concerns me most.
Primarily in the vicinity of the airfield.


'Downwind', with no reference to which runway or circuit direction.


'Base leg', as opposed to 'Right base 02' or whatever.


Pilots trundling onto a taxyway and announcing that they're 'Backtracking to the hold', when they clearly aren't. Etc.

[Heston]

Its all them ruddy microlighters who don't bother to get a radio licence and haven't a clue what they're doing :)

[piperboy84]

microlighters who don't bother to get a radio licence and haven't a clue what they're doing

Now now Heston, we can't expect them to talk a load of ****e with their mates on the microlight "party chat frequency" about where there going for a pint when they land AND make normal position and transition request calls on those pesky ATC frequencies can we?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

It's the safety aspect of some of the calls which concerns me most.
Primarily in the vicinity of the airfield.


'Downwind', with no reference to which runway or circuit direction.


'Base leg', as opposed to 'Right base 02' or whatever.


? - if unspecified doesn't

"Downwind" mean "for the active runway in the published circuit direction for that runway"

"Base" mean "for the active runway in the published circuit direction for that runway"

If I'm doing something non-standard I'll put in the runway or direction but otherwise why clutter up airtime?

[dagowly]

This^

Try flying at a mil airfield, no nonsense and to the point.

[Jan Olieslagers]

If R/T level of quality has dropped due to the permission for training at non-licensed fields, it cannot have to do with microlighters - they were well clear of that kind of nonsense since day one.

Not that I take all that very serious - weather is poor for flying, at least here, so one must expect the usual lot of fools at the bar. And the associated level of discussion.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I've heard FISOs using atrocious R/T procedures - using pilots names instead of a/c callsigns, clipping transmissions, not using callsigns (e.g. A/c "XXX downwind", FISO "...port final"). At airfields where student pilots are operating, R/T phraseology and procedures should be "by the book".

[Flyingmac]

"? - if unspecified doesn't

"Downwind" mean "for the active runway in the published circuit direction for that runway"

"Base" mean "for the active runway in the published circuit direction for that runway"

If I'm doing something non-standard I'll put in the runway or direction but otherwise why clutter up airtime? "

Never flown to or from an airfield with 'Circuits. Variable'?
With no-one manning the radio.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Never flown to or from an airfield with 'Circuits. Variable'?
With no-one manning the radio.
Not that I recall, but in such a case I would realise that there is no concept of "active runway" and no concept of "published direction" and would give more detail. (But not of course "left", as that's the ultimate default circuit direction.)

[fireflybob]

I've heard FISOs using atrocious R/T procedures - using pilots names instead of a/c callsigns, clipping transmissions, not using callsigns (e.g. A/c "XXX downwind", FISO "...port final"). At airfields where student pilots are operating, R/T phraseology and procedures should be "by the book".

HD, I know what you mean and could not agree more!

Also the willy waving which those with TCAS indulge in jamming up the airwaves at an airfield with A/G - I feel like squawking standby and bouncing them to make the point that non transponder a/c won't show on TCAS!

[fireflybob]

"Downwind" mean "for the active runway in the published circuit direction for that runway"

"Base" mean "for the active runway in the published circuit direction for that runway"

If I'm doing something non-standard I'll put in the runway or direction but otherwise why clutter up airtime?

Gertrude am with you all the way there and the last time I checked the CAP on RT does not specify that you have to nominate the runway or circuit direction when making position reports in the circuit.

[fireflybob]

Do not treat the radio as a primary flight control.

Shaggy, am going to pinch that one - thanks!

[Private jet]

In my experience the light GA scene in the UK was always a bit "Tally ho, roger, over & out" Not sure why, maybe watching too much "Dambusters/ 633 squadron" etc. etc....

[flybymike]

be short precise snappy and authoritative in those calls especially if you want to be taken seriously
Authoritarian A/G units are one of my favourite hates.

[The Ancient Geek]

Gertrude am with you all the way there and the last time I checked the CAP on RT does not specify that you have to nominate the runway or circuit direction when making position reports in the circuit.

This is all very well at simple airfields.
I did my training at Lanseria in South Africa in the 1970s.
Until last year they had 2 runways, 06L24R (10,000ft) and 06R24L(3500ft).
All light aircraft used the South circuit, takeoff from 06L then call "Right downwind for 06R" if doing touch&go practice or "Right downwind for 06L" when landing for a full stop. The tower needed to be paying serious attention on days when the military were using the LH circuit and passenger jets were also arriving calling final for 06L from 5 miles out.
Proper radio procedure was essential, especially paying attention to the tower and NEVER turning onto base leg without permission.

[Big Pistons Forever]

On a recent trip after departure tower cleared me to climb and contact terminal. This is how it went ( note it was a not very busy mid week afternoon)

Me: XX terminal Grumman AA1 ABCD

Terminal: Hi (my first name), Yah going to XX

Me: Yup, five point five please

Terminal: BCD cleared to XX at Five thousand Five hundred

:ok:

[swopiv]

Its all them ruddy microlighters who don't bother to get a radio licence and haven't a clue what they're doing

The chaps who are radio shy tend to avoid CAS altogether. In my experience, microlighters who do talk on the radio seem to be generally more concise than some other GA types. The number of times I've been waiting to make a call while some eejit uhms and aahs his way through his life story...:rolleyes: Good thing I fly at 50kts!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

BPF... sounds like a lot of professionalism.....

[Echo Romeo]

On a recent trip after departure tower cleared me to climb and contact terminal. This is how it went ( note it was a not very busy mid week afternoon)

Me: XX terminal Grumman AA1 ABCD

Terminal: Hi (my first name), Yah going to XX

Me: Yup, five point five please

Terminal: BCD cleared to XX at Five thousand Five hundred


Like it.:):ok:. My pet hate is continuous use by atco's of the word, Hectopascal, it is unnecessary and ridiculous. I refuse to say it, Niner Niner six is all anyone will get from me ;)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Remind me never, ever to get in an aeroplane with you.

[Big Pistons Forever]

BPF... sounds like a lot of professionalism.....

I agree ! Got the job done with minimum words, had a nice human touch and finished with a complete and by the book correct clearance to me.

The best part ? It winds up all the stuffed shirts on pprune who revel in discussing the most arcane of radio trivia in a manner that gives pedantry a bad name :E

Final vs Finals, people actually care about that enough to have a whole thread devoted to it ? Really ? :rolleyes:

[Echo Romeo]

Remind me never, ever to get in an aeroplane with you.

You're hardly likely to :ok:

[dont overfil]

Couldn't care less whether it's final or finals.
Just don't use "turning final" at a civvie airfield. It confuses the hell out of the military visitors.

[Big Pistons Forever]

My .0001 pounds sterling on how to use the radio

1) Don't drop the airplane to fly the radio. Fly the airplane first even if that involves a delay to make a radio call or respond to one

2) The purpose of aviation radio calls is to convey information. Better is the enemy of good enough. Getting all worried about saying exactly the right thing ( whatever that is given the range of opinions on what constitutes the "right" thing to say :rolleyes:) is self defeating. If you don't know the exact format say what you want or what you are doing in plane errrrrr plain English.

3) The main type of use of radio failures I see is pushing the mike button then trying to think about what to say. This results in a transmission that starts with a long UMMMMMMMM or ERRRRRRRR and then a mad jumble of words. Engage the brain before the PTT !

4) If you get stuck mid way through the transmission get off the mike rather than using up airtime trying to remember what to say

5) All radio calls have the same format.

-Who: You are transmitting to
-Who: You are ( ie your call sign)
-Where: You are
-What: You want or what you are going to do.

[chevvron]

Hectopascals: Nobody likes saying it echo romeo, but while the CAA insist on it I'm afraid pilots, controllers, FISOs and A/G operators have to, however I understand an abbreviation is being considered.
Final: for a military pilot is the point where they commence their final turn before lining up with the runway; this can be at the end of the downwind leg for fast jets.(called a Standard NATO pattern circuit).

[fireflybob]

however I understand an abbreviation is being considered.

Like millibars?

[Flyingmac]

I'm using hectobars. I've yet to have the readback corrected.:hmm:


Just wondering why I'm still being allowed to use Bar for my tyres, dive cylinders, etc. Why pick on pilots?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Effective RT: Maximum information in minimum words. Done well, it's an art form. Not everyone is an artist.

[Gingerbread Man]

5) All radio calls have the same format.

-Who: You are transmitting to
-Who: You are ( ie your call sign)
-Where: You are
-What: You want or what you are going to do.

I don't want to turn this into Jurassic Park: Rise of the Pendantosaurus, but that's not always correct either. People just need to read The Adventures of G-ABCD and BigJet 123, and wonder no longer.

[BEagle]

Echo Romeo wrote: My pet hate is continuous use by ATCOs of the word, Hectopascal. It is unnecessary and ridiculous. I refuse to say it, Niner Niner six is all anyone will get from me.

Back in 1976 I was at RAF Honington and was surprised, one dark, wet night, by the noise of a low-flying KC-135 on its way into Mildenhall.

It turned out he'd been passed 'niner eight seven' as the QNH, which he took to mean 29.87 inHg, the US standard. In fact the QNH was 987 mb, so he was about 700 ft lower than he thought he was......:(

Simple, concise RT is fine. But 'wannabe DJs' are not. "Yo bud, I'm at five point five and inbound ya field...". Is that 5500 ft or 5.5 DME?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

BEagle Well said, sir. I have heard the inches/millibars (in my day) confusion with American crews many times.

[Cusco]

Lakenheath are pretty good at transmitting hPa or inches Hg when transmitting to GA or mil: they give both readouts in full always now:

Tx to mil comes over VHF as well but we don't hear replies.

Must've had an incident at Honington in the past that scared them.:rolleyes:

Cusco

[Big Pistons Forever]

BEagle Well said, sir. I have heard the inches/millibars (in my day) confusion with American crews many times.

There would be no confusion if everybody used inches....

hat, coat, door.....

[Ampage]

Totally agree. Brevity seems to have gone out of the window, as does common sense.


The last thing anyone needs when joining an extremely busy circuit is to have the radio blocked by some lengthy discourse from an aircraft passing 10 miles abeam- all too common now. I'm late to this party - but recently most of my flying is done from Sywell. I've never heard such muppetry by passing aircraft on the radio as I have there.

People constantly stepping on eachother/talking utter nonsense. I appreciate some of these must be students but their instructors need to nip that in the bud. If they're at the point where they are navigating then they've probably got about 20 hours or so at least. Enough to know not to step on people. Or maybe I'm being too hard I don't know.

[Crash one]

Quote:
Originally Posted by HEATHROW DIRECTOR
BEagle Well said, sir. I have heard the inches/millibars (in my day) confusion with American crews many times.
There would be no confusion if everybody used inches....

hat, coat, door.....

In an industry where confusion can and is a killer of vast numbers of people, I am utterly boggle smoggled that there are so many variables. We have, litres, US gallons, Imp gallons, pounds, kilogrammes, knots, miles, kilometres, feet, metres, millibars/hectothingies, inches hg, and we wonder why things go wrong now and again.

[Basil]

confusion can and is a killer
Yup. Heard at Cambridge many years ago, as US reg a/c pops out of cloud a long way off and very low, something along the lines of:
"Cambridge confirm altimeter 29.92 inches."
"Negative, it is 992 mb."

[fireflybob]

In an industry where confusion can and is a killer of vast numbers of people, I am utterly boggle smoggled that there are so many variables. We have, litres, US gallons, Imp gallons, pounds, kilogrammes, knots, miles, kilometres, feet, metres, millibars/hectothingies, inches hg, and we wonder why things go wrong now and again.

Crash one, I could not agree more - if only more countries would come into line with the UK..........

[cumulusrider]

Glider pilots manage both extremes in the use of radio.
Our club managed 78 aerotows (224 movements) and 87 winch launches (174 movements) last saturday all controlled by one chap on the ground with a handheld radio.
However if you listen on 130.4 on a good soaring day ?!?

[Talkdownman]

Our club managed 78 aerotows (224 movements)
An aerotow departure is two movements? But they are tied together with string...

[cumulusrider]

Aerotow:-
glider and tug taking off together = 1 movement
Tug landing = 1 movement
glider landing = 1 movement

[Mach Jump]

- if only more countries would come into line with the UK..........

I'm with you there, Bob! ;)


MJ:ok:

[Background Noise]

Like it.:):ok:. My pet hate is continuous use by atco's of the word, Hectopascal, it is unnecessary and ridiculous. I refuse to say it, Niner Niner six is all anyone will get from me ;)

That about sums it up - I'll comment on poor RT by stating that I refuse to use the correct terminology.

[ChickenHouse]

Like it.. My pet hate is continuous use by atco's of the word, Hectopascal, it is unnecessary and ridiculous. I refuse to say it, Niner Niner six is all anyone will get from me

What for is the first Niner good? Niner Six does it all.

[Heebicka]

- if only more countries would come into line with the UK..........
negative, keep that rubbish away :) you shoud switch to decimals and metrics..




coeexistence of all these different gallons and miles is clear example how it doesn't work. :)

Braincells needed for remembering 1 inch is 12 foods which is 36 yards and one mile is 1760 yards or whatever can be used for something much more useful :) :)

[PA28181]

As an example of how different units can confuse, anyone remember the "Gimli glider" Canadian Flight 143?

As for the repeated word "Hectopascals" by some ATSU's I would also appreciate the current viscosity in Pascal seconds if available just to confirm the density and drag around the ATZ

[Crash one]

coeexistence of all these different gallons and miles is clear example how it doesn't work.

Braincells needed for remembering 1 inch is 12 foods which is 36 yards and one mile is 1760 yards or whatever can be used for something much more useful

The language of aviation RT is English.:ugh::ugh:

[Talkdownman]

Aerotow:-
glider and tug taking off together = 1 movement
Tug landing = 1 movement
glider landing = 1 movement
Ah, so the glider actually gets back then...

[Pace]

Ah, so the glider actually gets back then...

It has to come back to earth in some fashion :E I suppose you would call that a movement :ok: What goes up has to come down

Pace

[Heebicka]

[QUOTE]
The language of aviation RT is English.:ugh::ugh:
[\QUOTE]


so what? :) this doesn't imply units must be from UK.
or US? consumtion numbers in plane I fly are in US gallons because it is US plane. I am glad I didn't need to refuel it in UK using UK gallons....


see the point? it is pretty cool we are using same language, so it makes a sense to use same units too. (and metrics system conversion is multiply or divide by 10, 7years old can do it with no brain usage, you can't say this for miles and feets...)

[Basil]

What for is the first Niner good? Niner Six does it all.
Unfortunately, that is the sort of abbreviation which led to the Cambridge misunderstanding.
In the US, Altimeter 29.96 inches was abbreviated to 996. Works fine - so long as we all use inches. Guy comes to Europe and hears 996 - must be 29.96 - obvious innit?

[Basil]

Another gotcha: "Climb to 2000 feet . . "
Yes, of course it would be expressed as FL220 (even in the US with the TA at 18000) but that's why ATC SHOULD say "Climb 2000 feet . . "

[chevvron]

Or better still, 'climb to altitude 2000ft'.

[piperboy84]

The language of aviation RT is English.

Yes Crash but with a full blown Paddy accent for some words, I hear the local ATC lady saying "QFE one zero one TRREEE" the first part with a Scottish accent, the "3" part like she's just got off the boat from Donegal. Interestingly they seemed to have dropped using "niner" for 9.

In the end it's all good with no confusion or problem being understood.

[Basil]

chevvron & LookingForAJob, Absolutely :ok:

Bas - also ex ATCO RAF

[Crash one]

Yes Crash but with a full blown Paddy accent for some words, I hear the local ATC lady saying "QFE one zero one TRREEE" the first part with a Scottish accent, the "3" part like she's just got off the boat from Donegal. Interestingly they seemed to have dropped using "niner" for 9.

Absolutely Piperboy, but this is what I was referring to:confused:

Braincells needed for remembering 1 inch is 12 foods which is 36 yards and one mile is 1760 yards or whatever can be used for something much more useful

"Fife radio runway two fife, wun zero zero fife?"

[BEagle]

UK metric system:

1 furlong = 10 chains
1 acre = 1 furlong x 1 chain

I remember when we finally got rid of the rod, pole and perch - which were 1/4 of a chain! So a furlong was 40 chains or 220 yards.

At RAFC Cranwell, our USAF War Studies instructor gave us the speed of the SR-71 in British Units...furlongs per fortnight....:\

In the MKS system, fuel consumption should technically be cubic metres per metre - i.e. square metres. The continentals use litres per 100 km as even they would find square metres rather odd.

Back to RT - I always described 'to' and 'for' (or were they 'two' and 'four') as the 'Dangerous Dative'. The US-style clearance 'climb / maintain four thousand' was better than 'climb four thousand' as it was unambiguous.

Oh - and the UK 'cran'? That was defined as 37.5 gallons of fresh herring!

[Crash one]

What the firkin cubit is that about:ok:?

[Maoraigh1]

I thought a cran was four baskets, each which had to have a ministry brand.
At school, I had no problems with poundals, pounds force, pounds, slugs, etc. After 25+ years on SI units, I bought a bargain textbook on fishing boat stability, using Imperial units. I quickly gave up.

[Crash one]

While we are on the subject and surrounded by experts. Serious question, what is the difference/conversion factor, Horse power to Brake horse power. I think we now only use Brake horse power but the "brake" part seems to be omitted.?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

In the MKS system, fuel consumption should technically be cubic metres per metre - i.e. square metres.
Or you could express fuel consumption in Standard Wire Gauge.

Which makes sense - think of the vehicle moving along slurping up a cylinder of that thickness of fuel.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I was lucky enough to score a type rating on a L 29 Delphin jet trainer. I described the max chat low level fuel burn by saying the airplane drank a North American standard beer glass filled with Jet A every second

:ooh::{

[India Four Two]

BPF,

I didn't get a type-rating but enough time in a Vampire to appreciate the wallet-emptying fuel consumption.

In English beer-drinking units, we are talking 1/2 pint per second or 30 pints per minute. :eek:

The Vampire's owner said the DH Goblin was aptly named, as it gobbled fuel!

[The_Pink_Panther]

"negative, keep that rubbish away :) you shoud switch to decimals and metrics.."

Surely Hectopascals is metric?

[Basil]

The Vampire's owner said the DH Goblin was aptly named, as it gobbled fuel!
Recently watched 'Jet!' on BBC4.
Ex Lightning jock nodded towards parked English Electric Fizzgo and remarked: "I could empty that in fifteen minutes."

One of my life regrets is not taking up the standing invitation to go over to Colt for a ride in the two-seater :{

[TheOddOne]

Surely Hectopascals is metric?

Almost, but not quite. It's based on a scale of 10.1325 Pa. The early scientists (including Blaise Pascal, who developed an early barometer) did pretty well in determining the 'standard atmosphere' but got it a bit wrong. No-one has seen fit to change it since.

I think the 'inches of Mercury' approach is just as valid, the big danger is having 2 systems so open to confusion in common use.

TOO