Mobile Phone rules??

[happyone]

I've already posted this on another forum, then found this one...sorry if not appropriate. OK. Returning to LHR on a flight with Air Malta last week, we were taxying after touch-down and had to halt to allow 5 or 6 other aircraft to take off (we were taxying across their runway). During this halt, 4 gentlemen (in the seats next to me)powered up their mobile phones and started 'phoning home'... When we had safely stopped at the sky steps, I informed the gentleman beside me that it was NOT permitted to use mobiles until safely stopped and the engines (aircraft) turned off. Am I correct? What surprised me was, this gentleman said that they HAD asked a crew member whether they could use their mobiles and he told them to go ahead!!! I must say, I'm pretty certain that the announcement at the start of the flight (safety) not to use during take off or landing was not made. Can someone advise on this one? I'm not flight crew, so please excuse the terminology I've used if incorrect.

Thanks

Happyone (but not on this flight)!!!!!:confused:

[Captain Stable]

Happy, different companies have different rules. While the engines are running While the doors are shut While the aircraft is airborne etc.Perhaps it is time for a little standardisation.

[Cathar]

The CAA advice is that operators should implement procedures to ensure that all portable telephones are switched off prior to engine start on departure, and remain switched off until the engines are shut down after arrival. See

http://www.ais.org.uk/uk_aip/pdf/aic/4P196.PDF

Obviously this advice only applies to UK airlines.

[john_tullamarine]

Although outside my areas of engineering expertise, there were several useful editorial articles in Avionics Magazine relating to the problems of cell phones ... both on the ground for the network and the myriad of problems in an aircraft. Email if you would like a scanned copy ..

[TopSwiss 737]

Apparently, the radiation emitted by a mobile phone (depending of course where it is located in the aircraft) can cause the outflow valve to open on the B737... The pressurization controller isn't very well shielded from electromagnetic radiation...

Read some articles about research done on this subject. Seem to remember that they DID find that mobiles can cause severe interference to aircraft systems, but they had trouble to reproduce the effects. Location apparently has a great influence; 30cm more left/right could change the effects completely.

[Cathar]

Further info on the issue at:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Fodc19-01.pdf

[5711N0205W]

Sorry Cathar think your link is now out of date, try this one instead

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FOD200119.pdf

[Cathar]

5711

You're right, sorry about that. The link worked on Sunday and it led to the same document as your link so the CAA must be reorganising their indexing.

:rolleyes:

[flyby_kiwi]

So what sort of implications can be expected in light GA aircraft - I myself have never noticed any.

[TheDrop]

Flybykiwi,

GSMs can interfere with your coms and navs. A GSM phone in your flight bag is not good if you shoot an approach in minimum weather. And in can block your radio so you cannot hear ATC.

[Pandora]

Not related to aviation but definitely related to mobile phones. Mr Pandora did a bit of work for a well known petrol company. They require phones to be switched off on the storage plant and at petrol stations because in the last year or so they have had 3 explosions (didn;t say how big, obviously not big enough to make it to the news) that could only be traced to mobile phone interference.

[Captain Stable]

Kiwi, in Europe and, I suspect, NZ, it is illegal to use a phone whilst airborne. There are, as has been pointed out, many cases of interference which, whilst the case is not proven, provide very convincing circumstantial evidence pointing to interference with aircraft systems, but also there are implications for the integrity of the phone network.

[Pegasus77]

In Germany it is prohibited to use a mobile phone on board at all, even during boarding.

Difficulties arise when passengers, who just came from another (say American) carrier, don't understand this is law in Germany and start making a fuss about it.

Indeed, time to standardize.

P77

[Arcturus]

Use of mobile phones appears to be permitted under certain circumstances in Aus.
For instance, the Comm Failure procedure specified in a Jepp arrival charts for Adelaide, SA, states:
"IF ABLE CONTACT ADELAIDE APPROACH ON TELEPHONE (08)****-****"
How else could one do this except by mobile phone ?

[BlueEagle]

That could be achieved through ACARS, if your aircraft is so equipped.

[BOAC]

Same in the Thales booklet for Geneva.

[Squawk 8888]

Flyby_kiwi, analogue and tri-mode phones could potentially disrupt the DME and ILS in a lightie, not sure what else. It's not only legal to use them in Canada but is recommended for comms failures. I wouldn't us one without an adapter though; there are units avalable that plug into the phone's headset jack and pipe it through the intercom so you can use it hands-free.

[CRUGERA]

Looked at from the mobile phone network aspects.
When on the ground the cellphone will be able to communicate with say 3 or 4 base stations, and will hunt around looking for the best signal.
In the air the phone will be in range of 30? base stations and will still hunt around for the best signal. This may cause extra work on the network control computers, and if lots of people did this at one time the system would overload, and possibly crash?
I am aware of one person who 3 years ago was cautioned by the mobile phone company after tracking the A1 at 100 plus knots for several miles. I think they used the phrase abusing the system.

[Oktas8]

In New Zealand it is illegal to use cellphones only during IFR flight. VFR flight? - do whatever you like.

"No person may operate any cellphone or other portable electronic device that is designed to transmit electromagnetic energy, on any aircraft while that aircraft is operating under IFR." - Civil Aviation Rule 91.7

However, as far as I know most regional airliners carry a cellphone in the cockpit for emergency use, eg in the event of comms failure or (worse) total avionics failure. Many flight instructors, including myself, do the same. Phones are switched off in flight of course.

O8 :)

[skeet surfer]

CRUG - unlikely to be much of a problem to the mobile phone network if going up the A1 at 100kts.... bear in mind how many people travel up and down motorways at 80/90mph with their phones continually hunting for the best signal.....

The fact that you would be getting more base stations in range at a higher altitude (and therefore overloading the network) is also not relevant, as the aerials have a noticeable downtilt (not much point in transmitting upwards for a mobile network) so an aircraft above 1000' and under 150kts would definitely not create any problems for the network....

A fast jet at 250' could cause problems if Flt Lt 'jump jet' Jones decides to phone a friend............

[Mount'in Man]

Saw a passenger recently step out of a private turbine, cellphone engaged, brain disengaged and walk across the path of an taxying Brazilia. Don't think he realized what he had done until his crewmember steered him to safety!:eek:

[HugMonster]

Skeet - sorry, not correct about the mobile phone network. It is a problem, airborne phones can seize up the network.

[skeet surfer]

Hug - would have been a problem with the old networks, but not with the new networks....
Having said that (places engineer's head on) I'm talking 'in theory' - I would like to see it tried in practice, although preferably when I don't have an important call to make!!

I'm not totally sure of my facts here, even though I'm working for a mobile company right now (switching engineer), but I do know a man who will be able to enlighten me.....

Will post facts/apologies/told you so's after checking with him.....

[Gunner B12]

The main telephone carrier in Oz does not allow the use of mobile phones in environments like call centres, ie where people are using headsets as they are blamed with causing high pitched tones in the headsets. This has lead to a number of people "losing eardrums" which of course leaves them deaf in one ear.

I stay well away from the things when wearing a headset especially one which covers both ears as when flying.

:( :(

[Standard_Departure]

Hello all, ATC here,

Often working arrivals, we get that TUCK TUCK TUCK TUCK (same as a cell phone next to a car radio) sound on the frequency when some pilots are transmitting, (I think) it is therefore safe to assume that a passenger on that aircraft is using a cell phone...

Do you want ATC to give you a head's up ? can you hear it yourselves ?


SID

[Captain Stable]

We can hear it ourselves. It doesn't mean someone is actually using it - just that someone has left one switched on.

Cue for a PA announcement - "Ladies and Gentlemen, our instruments are telling us blah blah blah..." and cue also for all the crew to doublecheck their phones - often the culprits! ;)

Thanks for the offer! :)

[A310driver]

In the US, the FCC prohibits the use of cellphones in AC because this is a terrestrial based system which depends very heavily on frequency re-use. This requires that all communications are over a short distance...a few miles, typically (controlled by low power and low antennas with short line-of-sight distances). If used in an AC a cellphone has line-of-sight to many cells on the same frequency/channel and can really screw-up the cellsystem. So in addition to the obvious airborne interference issues ther are other regulatory reasons fro prohibiting such use.

[birdofprey]

On a similar topic but slightly off the subject, Airbus has recently performed a detailed study on the effects of using mobiles phones while in flight. The brief was to invetstige effects of mobile phones on a new very large aircraft project but installing receivers in the overhead racks and using a satellite link to connect the call (albeit at VERY expensive service, and only likely to be available to business class and above).

Studies were successful but were rumoured to lead to significant weight increases from the additional shielding required and transmitters.

So, theres hope yet for all you compulsive texters out there ;)

[john_tullamarine]

On another tack ... I can recall paxing some years ago ... the suit next to whom I was seated and I engaged in amiable banter during which I make the fatuous observation that he, no doubt, was looking forward to the day when in-flight calls were a reality.

He turned to me ashen-faced and said words to the effect that the aeroplane was the only place he could get away from rotten telephone calls .....

Perhaps not everyone wants to see the technology offered .... ?

[Charlie32]

I got told off for using my mobile by the bus driver taking us from apron to terminal at BRS.

I hadn't realised that they need an automatic nav system to get back to the terminal

[Crossedcontrols]

It is not just interference to comms and nav systems, the dreaded GSM is a great generator of “Spiney Normans”, a technical term for electrical spikes, which are the kiss of death to any digital system. I’m told that one worry is the false triggering automatic systems such as fire extinguishers etc.

Regarding the interference with the network. I’d be inclined to agree with skeet surfer, most of the cell sites have down tilt and there is little coverage when airborne (I’ve tried it a few times at 1500 ft in a Cub (not known for much in the way of RF shielding) with no service. But I may have a cr@p phone on a cr@p network.

A few years ago there were tales of some guy who got a huge bill because his phone kept a zillion cells busy when he used his mobile when airborne. Not true, the phone only has one transmitter, and will only talk to one cell at a time. It is true that the frequencies are repeated, but there is a method of frequency hopping to try and even out the good, bad and ugly traffic channels.

Even if this tale was from the days of Analogue ETACS had a way of dealing with calls on the same Control Channel frequency.

Anyway the phone should be treated like fags (sorry cigarettes for our US friends). It is possibly hazardous to stand next to someone using one, especially in a metal tube with reasonable RF screening as the mobile will turn up the wick and transmit at max power rather than the usual minimum, when in a good service are.
The jury is still out on the effect of 900/1800MHz of RF in the bonce, but who knows.

The above is only my opinion based on some experience but I'd be pleased to hear any other experiences or theories.

Regards to all

CC

[newswatcher]

From the BBC(20/8):

"A passenger who repeatedly refused to switch off his mobile after requests from cabin crew who feared it could interfere with flight frequencies, has been warned he faces jail. Businessman Faiz Chopdat, 23, from Blackburn, has been convicted of recklessly endangering the safety of an aircraft.

At Manchester Crown Court on Monday he was told he faced up to two years in jail for the offence which took place last September. Chopdat, of Rominey Walk, had denied the charge.

The jury was told Chopdat had been seen pressing buttons on the phone on board the Boeing 747 jet flying from Luxor in Egypt to Manchester, on 10 September.

Earlier, passengers had been told to switch off their mobile for the duration of the flight.

Prosecutor Steven Johnson told how, about an hour from Manchester, a passenger and then a flight attendant noticed Chopdat's phone was on and the screen illuminated.

A female member of the cabin crew asked him to turn it off but 15 minutes later it was noticed it was on again.

Chopdat was approached again to switch off the phone, the court heard.

"He waved the phone aggressively and said 'It's off, it's off, get out of my face'," said Mr Johnson.

"He was warned on at least two occasions.

"One passenger thought the phone was on because he heard a beep.

"When he asked the defendant to switch it off Chopdat shouted 'Shut up or you'll get a slap'," Mr Johnson told the court.

Staff on the Air 2000 flight were so concerned they radioed ahead and Chopdat was arrested on touch-down at Manchester.

Judge Timothy Mort told him: "'There is a distinct possibility I will have to pass a custodial sentence - as much as anything as a deterrent element."

Sentencing was adjourned until September so the judge can study reports on the dangers of using mobile phones on aircraft."

[Captain Airclues]

Mobile phones can play havoc with flight simulators. We always check that they are all off before we go into the 'box'.

Airclues

[Liquid Lunch]

*

[john_tullamarine]

My knowledge of matters electronic is less than miniscule .. on a good day ....

However, in Australia, the high flying mobile seems to work very well .... I have had a number of calls over the years from corporate jets travelling hither and thither .....

[flyby_kiwi]

Cheers Octas 8 and others - I did neglect to mention I was referring to VFR flights.

As Octas 8 and possibly others in NZ would prob. agree mobile phones are often the only way to communicate with each other while travelling in convoy through the southern alps.

Good to see I havnt been doing anything wrong all this time (VFR)

:D

[Captain Stable]

Kiwi (and others) you need to note that it is not simply a question of airlines' rules here.

In the UK (and most of Europe as far as I'm aware) and the USA, and probably elsewhere, it is actually illegal to have a mobile phone switched on whilst airborne.

[Crossedcontrols]

To reply to Liquid Lunch's comment about the phone hunting for another Control Channel, This is perfectly correct, but the phone does not transmit during this time, only when it finds a channel it is happy with will it transmit a burst of info, effectively loggin on.

Regarding the calls made in the past. These were probably on the analogue network AMPS in OZ, ETACS in Europe. You got greater distances for similar power with analogue. Digital (GSM etc) has had to come up with lots of clever DSP tricks to get even close. Also you could get 3 Watt phone for some analogue systems.

CC

[DistantRumble]

Regarding the speeds > 100kt it is worthwhile mentioning that several trainsets (uk) routinely travel faster than this ....

GNER is one that springs to mind and the network copes quite happily - and if you think about that it could be several hundred people all jumping cell....