Comments on this landing welcomed

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Apologies if this is in the wrong forum, but I am seeking the opinions of airline pilots.

I don't know if this video has been discussed here before, but it's led to a bit of 'difference of opinion', so the views of the experts on here would be welcome:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-NPkZRAS9Y

One point of view is that it should have been a go-around as the touchdown is very late so obviously too fast at threshold.

Another POV is that the extra speed was inevitable due the terrain and subsequent approach pattern, and holding off and 'floating' to bleed off the speed before touchdown was good airmanship.

What do Prooners think?

[Doors to Automatic]

It was a very late landing, but to be fair to the pilots the runway is ill equipped with touchdown or distance-to-go markers making a judgement far more difficult.

[cheesycol]

Press-on-itis. That was a horrendous float, and looks like they used up well over half of the LDA whilst airborne. Can only imagine how quickly the end of the runway was appearing in the windshield. Bleed off speed on the ground, not by holding off.

[SMOC]

Should have been a GA, however if you've got no fuel perhaps stop at all costs was the aim.

Two straight from the Boeing FCTM.

Floating above the runway before touchdown must be avoided because it uses a large portion of the available runway. The airplane should be landed as near the normal touchdown point as possible. Deceleration rate on the runway is approximately three times greater than in the air.

[TyroPicard]

Floating is not good airmanship.. airliners only stop with the wheels on the ground and the brakes applied.
No need to be fair to the pilots.. they should have gone around. They were very very lucky to get away with it.

[kcockayne]

Well, at least they all walked away from it !

Seriously, my admiration to the pilot. Maybe he should have gone round, but he got it down safely at what is an extremely difficult airport. Hats off to him !

[Capn Bloggs]

Bubbers 44 will have something to say about that! :eek:

[sleeper]

NO. Not hats of to him. Especially in difficult airports with short runways, you land in the touchdown zone or go around.
They stopped using maximum braking on a dry runway with nothing to spare.
So instead of hats of, I would say shame on them.

[PT6Driver]

Agreed, no hat's off.
Once if became obvious that they had floated past the touchdown zone they should have gone around.
They reached the end of the runway still at some speed and were extremely lucky to be able to turn off. Any number of variables, if different, could have caused an excursion.
A difficult approach should be managed correctly so as to achieve a touchdown at the correct point on the runway. It should not be used as an excuse!

[Smudger]

No admiration for the pilots, reckless press-on-itis.... go-around was the only option.... would like to have known how hot the brakes became afterwards

[G0ULI]

Very sporty!

Had a landing like that downhill, learning to fly. Fortunately I had the CFI in the seat next to me insisting that I hold the stick fully back and brake firmly only after the nose wheel dropped. Stopped with a hundred yards to spare, but left to my own devices, would have gone through a row of parked aircraft and a hedge.

I learned that day just how quick you could stop once all three wheels were on the ground and the wing was fully stalled and how long you would float if you tried to follow the ground downhill.

[foxmoth]

GOULI - sounds like the instructor should have initiated a go around.
As for the post in question - Hats Off yes ...... As he is marched into the chief pilots office for a bollocking!

[_Phoenix_]

GA style, came in too fast. They simply blow it.

Hats off for the guys in video below. This is a routinely job:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x36oAfY6anM

[DaveReidUK]

02 at Tegucigalpa is one runway you definitely don't want to overrun:

http://www.cargolaw.com/images/Disaster2008.TACA8.jpg

[parkfell]

They should show this during type & recurrency training.

Then ask why did the crew continue even though they knew it was risky and becoming more and more unsafe.
An interesting discussion should then begin.....

Learn from other people's mistakes, as you will not live long enough to make them all yourself.

[donpizmeov]

That should buff out.

[G0ULI]

Foxmoth

A go around would have been much more risky with very low airspeed and trying to outclimb rising ground and a row of pylons. I learned a lot that day. Don't get yourself in that situation in the first place but if you do, deal with the situation calmly and logically. Make the right control inputs and let the plane do its stuff. The CFI was ex WW2 RAF, so when he gave instructions, I listened.

[mcdhu]

Facts: LDA RW02 1664m/5459ft, elev 3306ft, PAPI 5.3 degrees, slight downslope.
Briefing: TEM?

[Sop_Monkey]

Who needs runway markings?? You either put the thing down ASAP after crossing the R/W threshold or you go around, period. That pilot burnt up far too much concrete, before touch down. If he was carrying the extra speed for the bank, there was plenty of time to get the excess speed bled off, between leveling the wings and before the touch down.

[PSF2J]

I entirely agree with SOP monkey. That is quite atrocious.

[skyhighfallguy]

so, here is a landing, off a circling approach with virtually no straight in time to stabilize, at an odd airport.

i have a feeling he could have planted it very near the 1000' mark but held off for a smoother touchdown.

i also have a feeling that few on this forum could handle this landing as well as the actual pilot (and gee that plane sure looks familiar , distinctive paint job).

It is better of course to touchdown nicely on that 1000' marker, on speed, everything nice, but reality is this> The plane looks like it can be used again without major repairs so this qualifies as a "GREAT LANDING" as opposed to a ''good landing'' in which you can only walk away.

So, a lot of monday morning quarterbacking, but few willing to play ball.

[grounded27]

Should have been a G/A, looked reckless to me. Looked like there was a much larger AA aircraft at the gate. It was hard to tell from the video, other than clearly being an unstable approach it appeared the final turn was short and extreme. Really lucky that this laps of judgment and failure to acknowledged it as they floated down the RWY was not disastrous.

[skyhighfallguy]

dear john smith



hope you enjoy the PM I sent you.

grounded 27: laps of judgement? did you mean lapse?


And gentlemen of the forum, of course stable approaches, landing in touchdown zones are the meat and potatoes of our profession. But this is one landing and the pilot doesn't kill anyone. I know people who have crashed off a stable approach.

What this video shows is FLYING THE PLANE and not just pushing the buttons.

[Sop_Monkey]

skyhigh

Yes he is certainly flying the plane but could have done better.

If that r/w was wet the outcome could have been really interesting.

[TowerDog]

Bad decision making, they should have gone around.
Have flown in to that airport hundreds of times, mandatory go around if you don't in the touch down zone, which is clearly defined. :sad:

[con-pilot]

They should have gone around. No discussion.

I as well have landed there in a 727 many times, you touch down in the touchdown zone or go around.

Again, no discussion.

[Mach Jump]

No kudos to either of these pilots.

The situation was entirely of their own making.

The circling approach was too tight and badly flown.

Even as the aircraft passed the camera it should have been obvious that to continue the approach was a very high risk proposition.

The only justification for continuing the approach beyond this point, would be an inability to go around, due to, for instance, lack of fuel.

i also have a feeling that few on this forum could handle this landing as well as the actual pilot (and gee that plane sure looks familiar , distinctive paint job).

Not you, by any chance, Sky? ;)

[skyhighfallguy]

Gentlemen, as I have just sent another PM to the kindly john smith, I challenge any of you to put up or shut up.

Right now, if you are so aghast at this less than perfect landing, REPORT the pilot/plane/airline to the authority which governs this area.

Anyone reporting should indicate this on their next post.

Any of you ever land a little long? Are any of you capable of "cowboying it up" in an emergency when you don't have time to do a stable apch? (no , this guy wasn' t on fire).

have fun, and a good pilot can talk about decision making while watching a youtube , but it takes a real pilot to FLY.

[Sop_Monkey]

Of course we have all screwed up, without exception. However we were invited to comment on the landing by the thread author. This to my knowledge has been done.

It is an education. As mentioned previously, "learn from others mistakes as we wont live long enough to make them all ourselves". That landing is an excellent illustration how not to do it. I would have thought the Captain and F/O would have learn't from that experience. If they didn't, then they are in real trouble along with their poor passengers.

[skyhighfallguy]

being an american I don't know what a "WALT" is?

the airbus, also known as a plane with permanent training wheels makes up for a robust ability to fly.

I wonder how many could have done what the pilot in this video has done?

Certainly it is not the best way to fly, it is non standard and open to problems, but I do think that the button pushers who have lost the "touch'' to make things happen are talking way too much here.


I am reminded of EK Gann's book, in which he has a bonafide emergency and elects to spiral down through a hole in the clouds rather than do the published approached (in a C54).

No stable approach, circling below minimums and to top it off he taxis the burning plane to a parking spot on top of a fuel tank. I'm sure you remember this if you read the book.


He had the chops to back up what he had to do. I am saying that the video shows someone with chops and guts. Maybe no sense, but chops and guts.


And way in a different league than some on this forum.

And no one has gone on to report the pilot in the video. Talk is cheap, and some are downright poverty stricken.

Hope you all have the chops and never need to use them. I have a feeling the only chops some have is with chips


I want to add this, I tried to stir things up to get some heartfelt self examination. Are your flying "chops" as ready as they should be? Are you only capable of doing things ONE way?

I was always taught to not "TALK DOWN" to others, giving them the benefit of the doubt of intelligence as capable as anyone else.

Yet few "GOT IT".

But fortunately for me, Johnsmith has promised not to bother with me anymore and I look forward to that. (his pm indicated this along with his abilities to name call) let's see if he is a man of his word.

;-)

[TowerDog]

Wow. This is the new CRM.
If you don't report some you-tube screw-up to the Authorities, you can not say anything and the Captain on the jet floating half way down the runway is a good pilot because he did not kill anybody. :sad:

Not sure what planet this is from, but I don't want to be there :sad:

[AerocatS2A]

Skyhighfallguy, I don't fly a push button aeroplane, the autopilot on mine is pretty crap and needs to be carefully managed. Visual hand flown approaches are the flavour of the day. So my hand flying skills are in no way rusty. However, if I had been the pilot who landed the aircraft in the op, I certainly wouldn't be holding it up as an example of good flying. It's the complete opposite, it is poor flying, and I hope that if I ever do a landing like that I'll be self aware enough to recognize it for the complete cock up it was and consider it a learning experience.

I want to add this, I tried to stir things up to get some heartfelt self examination.
That's called "trolling" and generally isn't appreciated in forums populated by adults.

[rog747]

i don't know the airfield apart from the various youtubes of app's and lndgs

this guy was lucky and if it had been wet (as mentioned) or the wind turned then the outcome would likely have been different

is that a taxiway/turnoff left he took there off the end of the runway or did he cross the dirt??
i thought it was a backtrack to the terminal?

thanks...

[AerocatS2A]

Taxiway at the end.

[AerocatS2A]

skyhighfallguy might like to check this video which shows what real flying is. Hopefully he can detect the difference between the two crews.

http://youtu.be/36g83GkG1eU

[olster]

spot on aerobat ; the 2 examples perfectly outline the difference between professionalism, sound decision making and good, appropriate handling. The first example is a classic demonstration of the complete opposite.

[Doors to Automatic]

I asked the question a few months back about the viability of a FBW enhancement which slowly deploys the spoilers in situations such as this to "help" the plane onto the ground.

I was dismissed out of hand and I am sure my sanity was called into doubt in private!

Imagine my surprise when, a couple of weeks later, I read of exactly this technique being deployed (contrary to SOP I should add) on a floating landing like this into Grand Cayman. Aircraft was a 737-300. It was calculated that the captain's actions saved an overrun!

[skyhighfallguy]

dear doors to automatic

you have been on this forum long enough to know you will get shot down if you offer anything different than the tea and crumpets served as usual.

paraphrase from "stick and rudder": someday you will fly the plane right above the runway, pull a handle marked speed brake and just settle to the ground, all done flying.

allow me lattitude in the paraphrase, but you can look it up for yourself and it was written before we were born.

[TowerDog]

Sure you can use spoilers to get "down" if you are floating, just like a turbo prop can pull reverse or beta, but floating is usually caused by lousy speak control and easy to avoid: Stay on speed during short final..:cool:

[Capn Bloggs]

Doors to Automatic, sorry, but that's ridiculous. Pulling the spoilers out in flight (I find it very hard t believe you could do that in a 737 anyway, unless you are referring to the speedbrakes...) is not the way to make yourself land on the spot.

Go around and do the approach again, properly!

[skyhighfallguy]

doors to automatic. I find it hard to believe that people don't understand what you are getting at. you are offering a new way of controlling the aircraft in the final stages of approach/touchdown.

I understand it perfectly and someday, someone aviation designers will use your advice. As I mentioned, the idea is well over 70 years old.

Some people have trouble understanding the use of speedbrakes as a term instead of spoilers. The idea is the same, deflection angles and other items are different, but the idea is there.


For the purpose of this discussion, let us stipulate to the idea that speed brakes and spoilers can be used interchangeably. OF COURSE some will point out that some spoilers are used for roll control, some are used only as ground spoilers. BUT LET US GET OVER IT>

[TowerDog]

Spoilers on touchdown, speed brakes in flight...

[skyhighfallguy]

tower dog

ok, you want to get precise, then you are missing roll spoilers used in flight.

PLEASE, for the purpose of this discussion, let us use the terms interchangeably

[Capn Bloggs]

It won't actually worry me coz if I pull out the spoilers/speedbrakes/big metal panels on the wings with landing flap bitching betty screeches "Speedbrakes!". :cool:

[skyhighfallguy]

bloggs

there are other planes out there besides your type. bittchin betty-ha

[Capn Bloggs]

Aware of that, SHFG. Anybody who uses the wing-speedbrakes in a jet to get the thing on the ground is an idiot.

[skyhighfallguy]

bloggs


but someday, say again SOMEDAY, a plane may be designed, and built that allows the use of speedbrakes to PLOP her right on.

WE are discussing the future, not the today.