EASA Night Rating

[fireflybob]

Can the night rating training be done alongside the PPL training so that the rating can be applied for at the same time as the PPL?

Thanks for any help.

[Level Attitude]

Yes

But, in my opinion, in general unless student is ready for Test at 35-38 hours not worth doing until after the Skills Test has been passed; which does mean min 50 hours (45 PPL then 5 Night). Will save the Night Rating application fee though.

Reason: I think last few hours of any student's training should be geared towards the test they are about to undergo.

[fireflybob]

Thanks Level Attitude

[BEagle]

Can the night rating training be done alongside the PPL training so that the rating can be applied for at the same time as the PPL?

The answer is now "No" - it was discussed at a recent EASA meeting and the conclusion was that Night Rating training may not be included in the basic PPL course.

Which seems rather daft to me.

[fireflybob]

Beagle, thanks!

[Level Attitude]

Beagle,
What does included in the basic course mean?

For PPL it is 25hours Dual and 10hours Solo - the other 10 hours experience required could include the Night Rating requirements could they not?

[fireflybob]

The answer is now "No" - it was discussed at a recent EASA meeting and the conclusion was that Night Rating training may not be included in the basic PPL course.


So does that mean a student cannot fly solo at night even under the supervision of an FI?

As you say Beagle seems a bit daft.

I can understand that it would not be part of the PPL training but surely the night training can be additional prior to licence application?

[Mach Jump]

What does included in the basic course mean?

I think it just means that you can't include it in the 45 hours minimum. ie. You can't count the same flight time towards both a PPL and a Night Rating.

It was always the case before EASA that you could only count flight time towards one qualifiacation at a time.


MJ:ok:

[fireflybob]

I see the confusion - my bad!

When I said "alongside" I meant the training would be in addition to the PPL training/hours.

It's been a long day.

[mrmum]

Yes, just done it this month with someone.
But as has been said, can't use the hours twice, training hours for night rating needs to be in addition to those for PPL.
Also, it doesn't save the applicant the fee, even if a combined application is submitted, the CAA charge both fees.

[BEagle]

Level Attitude asked: ...the other 10 hours experience required could include the Night Rating requirements could they not?

No, they may not. Night Rating training may not be included in the 'other 10', so we were told.

[nick14]

The latest NPA has the night rating syllabus in it and might answer the questions posed. CRD closes this March for a q3 publication I believe.

[Level Attitude]

It was always the case before EASA that you could only count flight time towards one qualifiacation at a time.Not so:
LASORS 2010 Section C1
Training for a Night Qualification (Aeroplanes) may be completed and included within the 45 hours total flight time required for the JAR-FCL PPL(A), providing the minimum requirements at (a) and (b) have been met

a. 25 hours Dual Instruction on aeroplanes
b. 10 hours Supervised solo flight time on aeroplanes

Neither what has been discussed in a darkened room, nor what is written in an NPA counts. Current Regulations are written, unfortunately not always unambiguously, and neither Part-FCL nor CAP804 state that training for the Night Rating cannot be included in a PPL course - therefore it can, particularly as it always was.

Also, it doesn't save the applicant the fee, even if a combined application is submitted, the CAA charge both feesThat rather surprised me so I rechecked the Scheme of Charges and although it says no charge for an IR applied for at the same time as a Licence it doesn't mention the Night Rating.

[Whopity]

Having read through FCL.210.A PPL(A) — Experience requirements and crediting and FCL.810 Night rating, it is quite clear that the Night Rating Course is a specific course at an ATO of at least 5 hours duration. The PPL experience requirement refers only to: shall have completed at least 45 hours of flight instruction in aeroplanesNo mention of a 45 hour Course. Apart from the specified 25/10 hours there is nothing to prohibit the 5 hours night being included in the remaining 10 hours.

It matters not what the CAA or EASA or committees might think, an ATO is simply required to comply with the Regulation as it is written, nobody can make the requirement more stringent.

[Level Attitude]

Whopity and I seem to be agreeing on something :O

[Mach Jump]

Oops. I should have said 'before JAA'


MJ:ok:

[BEagle]

It matters not what Whopity might think.

His former employers are adamant that training for the night rating may not be included in the PPL course.

The 45 hours of training may only be PPL training, i.e. for the course of training for the PPL. The night rating is not part of this course of training, hence may not be included.

I tried to argue against this, but the CAA were adamant.

[S-Works]

They are adamant about a number of things these days that often result in a back track.......

[BEagle]

bose-x, I fear that there's little chance of that, given that all the other NAAs at the meeting agreed with this frankly ridiculous decision.

[Whopity]

It matters not what Whopity might think.If they refuse you go for a Regulation 6 Appeal and then you have the option of a Judicial Review which should see compliance with the regulation no matter how adamant they are.

[BillieBob]

Often the mere threat of a Reg 6 appeal will cause an immediate capitulation. The CAA's success rate at Reg 6 hearings approximates Saudia Arabia's performance in Olympic bobsleigh. Consequently, judicial review is hardly ever necessary. The problem is that most potential appellants are, quite justifiably, fearful of the vindictive retaliation that inevitably follows a successful appeal.

[Level Attitude]

It matters not what Whopity might think.I agree.

It also doesn't matter what has been discussed in various meeting rooms, nor what the CAA have told Beagle.

What does count is what the regulations state, along with any official guidance material - and nowhere is it currently written that a Night Rating can not be completed within a PPL course of instruction. Therefore any refusal to issue a Licence/Night Rating in such circunstances would be overturned on appeal.

Now it may be that Part-FCL wording is planned to be changed from "shall have completed at least 45 hours of flight instruction in aeroplanes" to "shall have completed at least 45 hours of flight instruction in aeroplanes by day" or similar - but it has not happened yet.

The CAA have promised not to Gold Plate any EASA Regulations so, the least they can do, should they wish to interpret the rules in a more stringent way is to issue an IN informing all in the aviation community of their interpretation and hence requirement.

If they expect the rules to be changed in the future (due to the current discussions mentioned by Beagle) then they should also issue an IN warning of impending change so that Instructors/Students can take that in to account.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Personally I do see the point of this discussion. You have to be IMO, an exceptional student to be fully competent at the PPL level with just the bare minimum 45 hrs. Diluting that with training towards the night rating is not a good idea.

Also there is a significant amount of unique to night flying pilot decision making training required in a properly done night rating. All of builds on the PPL fundamentals which need to get taught first.

[Level Attitude]

BPF,
There is certainly a discussion to be had on the wisdom of conducting training for the Night Rating at the same time as for a PPL and, if you look at Post 2, you will see that I probably agree with your sentiments.

However, I believe, this discussion has been about Aviation Authorities writing and promulgating Laws, Rules, Regulations and Guidance Materials for the aviation community but then deciding not to abide by these themselves, without even informing anyone - not a way any organisation should be operating.

[172510]

Before:

JAR–FCL 1.125 (…)
(c) Night qualification. If the privileges of the licence are to be exercised at night, at least five additional hours flight time ....

The word additional was construed, at least in France (I don't know about other JAR countries), as meaning that the total training had to be 45 + 5 = 50 hours.

Now:

FCL.810 Night rating (...)
(1) If the privileges of an LAPL or a PPL for aeroplanes, TMGs or airships are to be exercised in VFR conditions at night, applicants shall have completed a training course at an ATO.

There are 45 hours in the PPL course, I don't think that anything forbids you to train your student at night for part (maybe all?) of the 45 hours.

Nevertheless, I understand a training course as meaning another course than the PPL course, from which I conclude that the total training should be 45 + 5 = 50 hours.

[BEagle]

Level Attitude, the CAA didn't 'tell' me anything.

This was a formal EASA meeting attended by NAAs, EASA and Industry members.

The topic was raised by Austria and the conclusion was that night rating training may not be included in the core PPL course.

But hey, you barrack room lawyers with your Reg 6 and judicial review nonsense, please feel free to know better, should you so wish....:rolleyes:

[Whopity]

There are 45 hours in the PPL courseThere are indeed but thats not what the regulation says! The regulation states with reference to a PPL (A) shall have completed at least 45 hours of flight instruction in aeroplanes It then goes no to specify a minimum of 25 hours dual instruction and 10 hours solo, leaving a further 10 hours of unspecified instruction or even solo. The 5 hours of night training can be additional to the 35 hours of specified PPL training and still fall within the requirement of 45 hours of flight instruction.

It matters not how the French or anyone care to interpret it, in legal terms it can be done and should be upheld by a court if an Authority fails to comply with the regulation.

[Level Attitude]

Level Attitude, the CAA didn't 'tell' me anything.BEagle, that is a rather disingenuous statement given what you have previously Posted in this Thread:"Night Rating training may not be included in the 'other 10', so we were told."

"His former employers are adamant that training for the night rating may not be included in the PPL course."

"I tried to argue against this, but the CAA were adamant."The topic was raised by Austria and the conclusion was that night rating training may not be included in the core PPL course.So, a question was asked and a discussion was had - just like on PPRuNE.

Unlike on PPRuNE a decision was made, BUT that decision has no force unless, and until, those affected by it (ATOs, Examiners, Instructors, Students) are informed of it via official means (preferably unambiguously and in writing).

[BEagle]

The CAA's GA Unit is currently drafting an IN to confirm the position stated at the meeting.

[Level Attitude]

The CAA's GA Unit is currently drafting an IN to confirm the position stated at the meetingAt which point us mere mortals will become aware of the requirements and will (hopefully) then be able to abide by them.

[Mickey Kaye]

Does this still mean you will be allowed to use a night rating as part of the 10 hours nppl/lapl to ppl course?

[fireflybob]

Have just heard of one person doing all the 5 hours of "training" in one night!

Surprised this is allowed.

[TheOddOne]

I had a cunning plan to fly to a 24-hour airfield, takeoff from base just before twilight to do the 'transition from day to night' exercise, dual circuits, land, brief and solo circuits (total 3.5 hours flyong). Night stop, then take off again at sunrise -2 hours for the night navex, fly back to base and land after the end of official night (we've no lights). All seems perfectly legal, with 8 hours sleep between flights can't see the problem. Yet to achieve it, though.

TOO

[fireflybob]

I had a cunning plan to fly to a 24-hour airfield, takeoff from base just before twilight to do the 'transition from day to night' exercise, dual circuits, land, brief and solo circuits (total 3.5 hours flyong). Night stop, then take off again at sunrise -2 hours for the night navex, fly back to base and land after the end of official night (we've no lights). All seems perfectly legal, with 8 hours sleep between flights can't see the problem. Yet to achieve it, though.

I like your style, TOO!

Just wondered where you'd be fitting in any of the ground briefing?

[mrmum]

Why would you be surprised that completing in a single night was allowed?

There's no limit on daily flying hours for the PPL course and associated ratings that I'm aware of, or is there?
It depends on the individual and what you're trying to teach them, but I find that 2 or 3 hours a day is an achievable amount for most trainees. That's probably plenty for circuits, but if someone's doing their "QXC" (if I can still call it that), with a dual checkout beforehand, then you can easily be up at 4 hours.

We've done a few single night NRs, works quite well if you prepare for it, get some sleep. Also I think it's best to try and get the 5 solo circuits done as early as you can, then finish off with the dual nav. Pretty much as TOO said. You can get the bulk of the briefings done beforehand.

[fireflybob]

What is "legal" isn't necessarily best practice.

Do you want a quick (night) pilot or a good (night) pilot?

Why all the rush?

5 solo circuits

You mean "5 solo take-offs and 5 solo full-stop landings" I presume?

[mrmum]

Indeed not, I don't disagree.

Quick and good aren't always mutually exclusive though, sometimes an "intensive" course is the best solution for the individual concerned.

There's not usually a rush, we do more NRs in the traditional, hour or two a night manner. However, the customer might find it easier to be available for a single whole night, rather than several part nights. A couple of times we've had someone heading for a CPL need it done in a hurry in Summer.

You presume correctly.

[Ex Oggie]

I had a cunning plan to fly to a 24-hour airfield, takeoff from base just before twilight to do the 'transition from day to night' exercise, dual circuits, land, brief and solo circuits (total 3.5 hours flyong). Night stop, then take off again at sunrise -2 hours for the night navex, fly back to base and land after the end of official night (we've no lights). All seems perfectly legal, with 8 hours sleep between flights can't see the problem. Yet to achieve it, though.

I assume you would take off at Little Snoring and land at Sleap? :E

XO

[BigEndBob]

Sorry to revise an old topic, but any new guidance on this subject regarding allowance of NF training within the 45 hours and also if it can be started before/after the 10 hours of solo.

[GipsyMagpie]

Booker are still advertising it as optional part of PPL course but interestingly night flying is not included in the syllabus for PPL(A) in the AMC/GM to PART-FCL. But wierdly it is for PPL(H)!

[selfin]

Notice of Proposed Amendment 2020-14
RMT.0678—Simpler, lighter and better Part-FCL requirements for general aviation (Subtask 2)
https://hub.easa.europa.eu/crt/docs

—GM1 FCL.210.A(a) PPL(A) — Experience requirements and
crediting

FLIGHT-TIME PREREQUISITE FOR THE ISSUE OF A PPL(A)

The introductory sentence of point FCL.210.A(a) requires applicants for a PPL(A) to have completed in
total 45 hours of flight time in aeroplanes. This means that, in addition to the PPL(A) training as
specified in point FCL.210.A(a)(1) and (2), these 45 hours of flight time in aeroplanes may include the
flight time of the night rating training course specified in point FCL.810(a)(1)(ii) as well as the flight
time of the skill test for the PPL(A).

[Whopity]

Common sense finally prevails but if the UK lock-in the rules as at 1st of Jan it will take a parliamentary change to reflect any future EASA amendments.

[BEagle]

This is as the result of the proposal I presented at EASA on behalf of IAOPA (Europe) 2 years ago. If the NPA is received favourably, the timeline for this change means that it is likely to come into effect in EASA Member States in Q4/2022.

The UK should be able to incorporate this change rather sooner!

I also proposed the same thing for the Part-FCL LAPL(A), but for some inexplicable reason EASA has decided not to include it.....

There are other changes proposed in NPA 2020-14; another is the acceptance of part completed LAPL training towards a PPL. Delegates agreed to this at an EASA meeting in 2013, so it will have taken 9 years before it comes into effect!

[BigEndBob]

Can they drop the six month rule, very few night ratings i have done, been done in one season. I have one guy who has done 4 hours over 18 months.
Our field only does one night a week night flying. Lucky to get 3 evenings over the winter.

[Whopity]

The CAA could easily have dropped the rather ridiculous 6 month rule, but the way they have gone about it means we will be stuck with it and any changes will require a change to UK law. The powers that be will resist that rather than admit they got it wrong by trying to micromange FCL through Statutary Instruments.

[Arewerunning]

Have just heard of one person doing all the 5 hours of "training" in one night!

Surprised this is allowed.
why should it be:

a) not allowed?

b) regulated?

[Fl1ingfrog]

Of course the night rating can be done in one night especially when it is after the licence issue: endurance may not be such an issue. The night rating adds to the pilots already developed knowledge of VFR perception and illusions, the situational awareness skills introduce some new rules to follow. It is a simple extension of visual flying.

States cannot make up their minds whether flight at night should be VFR or IFR and differ in views. The French incidentally have got themselves into a right pickle: whether, if and when a flight plan should be filed for flight at night, whilst at the same time accepting it is flight subject to VFR. EASA have criticised the DGAC, of confusion in its rulemaking following the latest EASA audit. To be more entangled in thinking and rulemaking than EASA takes some doing.

[Classic]

Is there anything to stop much of the PPL syllabus instruction taking place at night? e.g. Radio nav, visual nav, ccts etc?
If it's in both syllabuses, written in the training record as being flown as part of each syllabus, then it should count for both qualifications.

Nowhere is it expressly forbidden.

[BEagle]

Which is why my response to the NPA specifies that the 25+10 training for the PPL must be by day!