F/O reports incompetent captain in Emirates

[DU vs UO]

Just heard an Emirates F/O reported a Captain after a flight, for beeing incompetent and so on.
He didn't have the balls to talk to the Captain personally.
I flew with the PIC a few times and he is a great guy and an excellent pilot.

Time to command in EK is about 3 years, good luck to the sad F/O he'll need it during his upgrade.

[QNH1013]

That is really behind the back stuff. I don't know what the procedure is at Emirates but in my airline if you are going to report another crewmember the other pilot would have to be told and sign the report as well. Doesn't mean he agrees to what is reported but just so he knows that an incident involving him is being raised.

[411A]

In 37 years of professional flying, only one time did a co-pilot complain...directly to the fleet manager.
The fleet manager called me in and asked....what about this report? So I mentioned about the co-pilots lack of situational awareness, missed radio calls, improper company required callouts....etc, and well, no surprise really, the guy was sent back to the B737....and there he stayed....for three years. Many of the Captains there would not give him any flying...for a long time.
The necessary requirement of course, is management to back up their Commanders, in these situations.

[Tcas climb]

The necessary requirement of course, is management to back up their Commanders, in these situations.
And if the copilots comments are correct? I think that there is often more than meet's the eye.


Many of the Captains there would not give him any flying...for a long time.
Stupid!:rolleyes:

[411A]

The concerned co-pilot was later dis-missed from the company...it was found out that he was a troublemaker, not uncommon amoungst air crew....especially copilots who think they are command material...but later prove otherwise.

[Iz]

411A, that sounds ridiculous. I'm glad you were on the right end of the stick and that F/O reportedly turned out to be a trouble maker anyway, but what if you were flying with another captain? And the other guy is making a big mess out of it? Which captain is the company supposed to back? The most senior guy? Or the guy who is best friends with the chief pilot?

The latter will most likely happen.

I don't speak for myself but I can imagine that an F/O is afraid of the consequences if he confronts the captain directly.

In our company, there are places where you can drop a complaint anonymously. Say, if someone harrasses you and clearly dislikes you, you can report that without that person knowing. You can do this if you're afraid of what that person will do to you if his (or her) actions will end up getting that person sacked.

Personally, I'll tell the fellow pilot if there's something about his or her actions that's unclear to me (to put it diplomatically) unless he's clearly deranged and psychotic. :)

[Standard_Departure]

I am an ATC, but this situation is too interesting to just monitor.

A couple of things...

#1. No individual, irrespective of seniority, experience, culture, nationality or history is more important than flight safety.

#2. There is a catch 22 in reporting or (not reporting) your flight-deck partner, on the one side, you may be cutting a rod for your own (or their) back, on the other side, their continued (suposed) wrong doing may cause an incident or accident that could lead to the loss of life.

#3. Clearly, if there is a problem, then something needs to be done about it.

#4. Perhaps the solution lies in Confidential Reporting System, where no names are stated, and the information becomes public (internal to the airline crews) record every few months. This way, when Captain X reads the report, he may identify this as being his own behaviour and adjust accordingly. Also, (non involved) Captain Y or F/O Z may become aware of tendencies, and be on the look-out for them.

#5. If sufficient simialar reports are recieved, it may indicate to management a tendency amongst crews, or highlight a shortcomming in the Airline CRM training.

Lastly, any statement that starts with "I heard that ........" should be taken with a pinch of salt, there is always more (or less) than meets the eye (or is passed on as hear-say).

+++ No offense intended to anyone here +++

Dubai ATC'er

[Kaptin M]

Would you say the content of your postings here on PPRuNe have generally shown you to be a tolerant and non-abrasive individual, 411A ?

Again, your statement, "especially copilots who think they are command material... appears to me either extremely naieve, or you have ignored/resisted any CRM training given. In your day, YOU were God in the aircraft with the F/O there to be "seen, but not heard". Correct?

Companies employ First Officers as future Captains, they are there to learn and build experience, to ask advice and to offer an opinion, as well as to MONITOR the safe operation of each flight.
Even YOU made mistakes, 411a - although I'm sure that you're hard pressed to remember any!

Fortunately for the passengers, the airlines, and the insurance companies, there are far fewer Tyrants in the lhs today than there were when you flew professionally. Crews have learnt the value of working as a TEAM, and the DANGER of NOT sharing opinions.

Did YOU ever consider yourself the "square peg in the round hole", 411A? Again, I venture that you would answer "No" to that question.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in EVERY way.

At your late stage in life, 411A here's a little advice from someone with 7 years less in the industry than you - Try talking WITH people, not AT them. ;)

[gengis]

Er, specifically what was the complaint about? Inaccurate flying? Making a balls-up of the landing? Blatant disregard for SOPs/ATC procedures? Flying into TS? Busting limitations/minimums? Flying when drunk? One-man shows? Or just some petty rantings from a juvenile F/O? The exact nature of this case does have a bearing on who's right & who's wrong.

[saker]

Is this PPRUNE member 411a for real?

Do we still have these attitudes?

Does he tell his F/O to just shut-up, look out of the window and say nothing to nobody?

[mjenkinsblackdog]

What nationality was the fo in question.:cool:

[Eff Oh]

Is it just me, or did 411a go to the same charm school as The Govner?? He is sounding more and more like him every day!:rolleyes:
Eff Oh.

[SFI145]

This might be a good thread for the newly created CRM forum if only to warn new co-pilots that in spite of the introduction of CRM/MCC training the industry unfortunately still has flight crew members such as 411A.

[ico330]

cant believe this guy reported the Captain directly to management without either discussing the problem post flight
or using the confidential reporting system. Even if they had a disagreement during a flight or not.This is not the way things should be done in a multi cultural environment like Emirates. I hope his skills are commensurate with the high standards he has set.Good luck to the next guy he has to fly with.:mad:(

[411A]

Hmm, well the sad truth usually comes out in the end....and sometimes results in...shortened careers.

[Warlock2000]

Sad day for Emirates flight deck crew.
If you have a problem with someone, sort it out with THAT person, don't drag management into it unless absolutley necessary. Not wearing a jacket and cap do NOT fall into the "ABSOLUTLEY NECESSARY" category.

Seriously BAD career move!
:mad:

Reporting behind someones' back was a right I previously though was reserved for our cabin crew!

[Warlock2000]

Oh, .... I forgot to mention, isn't funny how 411A seems to get attracted to ANY negative EK post like a fly to sh!t ?

[Check 'Six']

Very bad form from the F/O. I do not know what he is trying to achieve, other than the response indicated so far on this forum and the Emirates private forum. Sorry old boy, but know you have to live with this!! And hopefully one day when and if you get your command, maybe someone else, just like you, drops you in the s***!!
A sad day for the South African community in Emirates, who generally are a good bunch to work with. I certainly hope someone has actually spoken to this turkey and advise him on how CRM actually works. Anyway, he now has to go to work and face every scenario. Better not make any minor mistakes my friend. Good Luck to you and the way you went about shaping your own future. I look forward to flying with you.

[Shuttle nine Tango]

I tend to be a reader (lurker) rather than a poster, however after reading 411A's comments the urge to post became awfully strong.
411A
When you were discussing the F/O's shortcomings with management, did you forget to also mention ( as you seem to missed it in your post) what advice and corrective tution you gave this seemingly dreadful F/O.
Its all very well you decrying the UAE F/O for doing what he did, but without guidance given, it seems to me you did exactly what the UAE guy did.

[GULFPILOT76]

I must admit this is a difficult situation and CRM is a tool, not always the solution. Some guys just don't 'click' and it's hard to change that around. A few locals just don't like expats taking their jobs. I sometimes fly with a 48 yr F/O, older than me, who keeps on saying how long he's been in the business. We don't get along and that is a shame because I like a good team and a laugh. I think though that reporting without notice is not done, have the courage to try and settle the problem first and then go to the fleet office if there is no solution.

[DouglasDigby]

Playing devil's advocate here........ what if the FO HAD previously tried the "person to person" approach, or other informal methods, which may not have worked? Without knowing the facts, there's a lot of mud being thrown!

Standard_Departure in particular - the voice of reason and common sense!

[411A]

Shuttle nine Tango--

I did not give any advise to the First Officer, he simply packed his flight kit and walked off the flight at an intermediate stop...the Flight Engineer's only comment at the time was..."wonder what's wrong with this turkey?"Up to this point...he said nothing. It did not help his case that the resulting flight was delayed two hours.
That is why the reaction by the fleet manager was the way it was....a crew member is NOT expected to simply walk off a flight...and expect to keep his job.
Come to think of it...had another copilot "walk off" as well, but this time he told the fleet manager that...."I don't care about company policy, it is my right to smoke on the flight deck". This was in dispatch before the flight commenced. His rather rude comments to the fleet manager resulted in (hardly surprising)... dismissal. If you tweek the tail of the tiger...you get bitten.
Sadly...some guys never learn.:rolleyes:

[holden]

One of the many recurring themes here on pprune...we dont all get on do we?Nothing unusual in that I guess..why should aviation be different to any other profession?However,I dont subscribe to the view that CRM = democracy on the flightdeck,I dont like the way you do things,I am going to tell the CP when I get home.NO!The Commander is the pilot-incommand.The buck stops with him.But a good commander solicits advice and welcomes an eagle-eyed FO.And a good FO knows how to air his concern..ie forecfully and diplomatically.
411a is correct on this one...airlines who dont stand by their Captains invite very bad luck.Its a superstition thing I guess but valid today as it has ever been.
When I was a FO,I flew with some older guys who didnt seem very switched on....but they were.I just couldnt see the poetry they were showing me.95% of the time I was glad I kept my mouth shut and tried to learn something.The other 5% you figure out for yourself as you go along,but such are the joys of flying.
But never take it to the CP unless all else fails.

[toro]

Right..........!!!!!! thats it, I cannot stay quiet/lurking any longer.
411A, who/what are you??? I challenge you as a man (presumably) to reveal yourself as your profile says nothing. Go on justify your experience & vast knowledge. "37 years in aviation blah de blah, I know it all, I have all the answers, etc ,etc."
Why are you not running a multi billion Dollar/Euro/Pound, International airline????
You seem to be from other posts scrabbling around (WHY??) in a 50,s technology 4 engined wonderjet Lockheed Jetstar. Are you serious?? As an apprentice engineer in the early 70,s we had a Jetstar to play with for a short time. What a laugh, I have to admit it was a "double-hard" looking piece of kit; but was antiquated then. No wonder you have to give your Customers (yes!! as a "International jet Captain" they are extremely important to me as well) as much Jack Daniels as they want....


BUT my BIG question is....

Why have YOU had two F/O,s walk off the flight deck under your command??? Yes, yes we all know already that your response will be total innocence & they were guilty at & fault. But maybe once in your life, take some advice and look at the way you deal respond to others(I am talking from my own F**k-ups and exp here); maybe their actions were wrong but what broke in your relationship at the time to precipitate their response? Maybe? between the two of you, he got so "jacked-off" (can I say that?) that the result was inappropiate.

Jeez, sorry I think I am going to cry :( :(

Aren`t we all big enough to normally see a bit a "situation" developing and call time out for a real or metaphorical beer??

Still I agree with a lot of the posts that a flight deck is not a democracy & no one should go snivelling to management if there is any other way to resolve a problem. (we in a previously "popular" airline have had the same situation) Go talk to your Rep/tame Skipper/mates, before using "the last card".

AAAAAAhhhhhhhhh that feels better.

Adios Toro..

[Good ROC]

Everybody talks about CRM. Where is the CRM in this tread. A lot of you get defensive. Thats not an attitude that works well with CRM. Sorry couldnt help it. I am "just" a co-pilot or F/O or what ever. Does that mean that I cant recognise when the teamspirit goes down the drain or when a situation turn sour. I had some serious problems with a captain in the company. My problems came as a result of this captains lack of basic skills, knowing procedures as well as bad personality (in my opinion) I had some should I call it "arguments" where he among other things told me that "I wasnt fun to fly with. I made him nervous" But I really tried good CRM and not to mention ALL his misups(during flight) things like forgetting to put on/off the landing lights consequently (yes I know we all forget BUT NOT 6 OUT OF 8 TIMES). Switching on/of the wrong buttons and heeps of other stuff that I dont even want to mention. I really shall consider what and how I say it not to affend him.

I tried to talk with this guy as some of you have mentioned would be only natural but he refused to take notice of it and claimed that I was just a pain in the a.. After a few days of thinking I consulted one of our senior captain and he gave me some advise. I was not the only one having problem with this guy. I had recently flown with him again and I must say that I see the situation quit different now. I more like feel sorry for him and try to help him. But he still pi.... me of badly and I do not hesitate to tell him that.

morale: dont be afraid to speak up and confront your coleaques if they p.. you of.
;)

[Iz]

Check 'Six' -- JEEZ!! A bad day for the South-African community??
Hmm was this person maybe also a Hetero-Sexual MALE? Shouldn't this be a bad day for all hetero sexual male pilots then? .....

[Lizzie]

411, you sound just like the sort of captain that is hard work to fly with. Hope I never have the pleasure!

[amos2]

Oh Boy! oh boy! oh boy!...toro and big rock,hot rock or whatever you call yourself...you are both complete A..holes! And don't think that any captains reading your nonsence would think otherwise! But , hey ,what would I and other long time captains know ! You and all the other apprentices out there know it all don't you?...don't you? :cool:

[Good ROC]

Sorry if I stepped on somebody´s something. I was too naive I asumed that my little situation could help some of our coleagues who were afraid to speak up and kept there anger to them self.

The guys that really needs the CRM-course doesnt really understand them anyway.

Co-pilot OR captain, if something is wrong you MUST speak up.

[toro]

Amos2....Please re-read my albeit heated message, I was an apprentice in the 70,s, since then 22 years of commercial flying time and 18 in command(including 6 years in your neck of the woods). I agreed with 411a et al in many ways, eg pax being very important, communication, crm etc. I even admitted through my own experience of f**k-ups. within flight deck personality misunderstandings. What I want to get across is that we all jump to conclusions (like you have now) without establishing all of the facts and generally start from our own entrenched positions. Which if may suggest within civil aviation could and has had catastrophic repercussions........Toro.

Good ROC...sorry that you amongst many others has experienced what this thread is about, your response seems correct and a mature response. The only thing I would suggest is to modify the word "confront" maybe "dialogue" ????

A very wise Captain said to me years ago "remember 50% of the a**e h***s sit in the left hand seat" ergo they are not Capt,s or F/o,s specifically. :cool: :cool:

[start sequence 312]

411A,
It’s a pleasure to read your messages because you are always unafraid to express your opinion and invariably you go direct to the main point with a good sense of humor.
However, I’m not sure you’re correct using your personal experience as a general rule concerning initiatives from crew members of any kind. Without changing perceptions and an old-fashioned aviation culture - as we can see in many major airlines everywhere -, every investment in safety, Team Resource Management, etc., will be a waste of time and money. Different ways to improve communication among employees must be encouraged and a professional attitude must be in the first place, there’s no space for complacency, and absolutely, it’s not a stimulus for a tough dispute among informers of bad character because we can find them even today. Many accidents could be avoided and several lives preserved if an improper behavior from many pilots have been detected in advanced. We can read a lot of accident reports stating: "…The captain was described by his colleagues as rude and had a poor skill in communicating with crew members, etc., etc…" , but usually there weren’t any formal reports.
Captains, seniors or not, must always use their leadership trying to keep a good attitude from anyone involved in the operation but they can’t use their position to prevail upon a person of lower rank or use it as a form of oppression or revenge.
Regards.

[hughorgen]

Typical of 411A and his ilk !

Immediately blame the FO as the Atlantic Baron in the Left seat must never be questioned EH ???

Obviously CRM broke down for some reason and at least somebody had the balls to do something about it instead of stewing. The Management has the responsibility to sort out the wheat from the chaff !!!

Imagine the incidents and accidents that would never have occured had the FO said or done something instead of worrying about the Grumpy old dear on his left feeling threatened ???

Proactive move ! Safety First !!!

Stop whining about an FO who did something !!!
:rolleyes:

[411A]

Hmmm, some of the comments here from the "junior" gallery indicate...maybe the best policy for Commanders just might be...gear up and shut up.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[PPRuNe Hound]

Obviously a sensitive topic.

Does anyone know whether the F/O tried talking to the Captain first?

No.

Does anyone know if this Captain is a serious problem with other F/O's and this F/O stood up for those who should have in the past?

No.

Does anyone know why the F/O "dobbed" to the company?

No.

The idea of making broad sweeping statements is bloody odd then, but standard for PPRuNe.

If my F/O dobbed on me I'd be mortified, but it happened, and the consequences were resounding for both of us.

I had a good look in the mirror and changed a few things, whilst the F/O languishes in the mists of obscurity that goes with egotistical assumptions of greatness, hidden behind a cloak of cowardice.

The dobbing doesn't always work, but this EK business may not have been that clear cut; only EK management know.

Thanks to my boss then, and I imagine that EK being a world class operator will respond appropriately in this instance.

[Willit Run]

Very few captains were born into the left seat, although I know a few think they should have been. All but a few captains had to do time in the right seat for a while.

Many airlines have F/O's that have 3 times the experience that the captains do, including command time. but because of hiring, they are in the right seat.
With that said, does the Captain have any more pull with the company than the F/O? This should never become a pissing match! I don't like everyone I fly with, and god knows I hate to admit it, but I'm sure some folks don't like the idea of being paired with me, but we are supposedly pro's and we deal with it! we get along and get the job done.

Now, with a captain who could have had my fat butt violated 9 times in two weeks, something has to be done. Were talking about missing crossing restrictions, flagrant speed violations, turning the opposite direction, not turning on an airway when he should have,but 25 miles later. I finally had to go to the chief pilot, and found that the hardest thing I've ever had to do. 4 months later when all the other F'O's had enough of the same stuff, they too had a chat with the chief pilot.

Way back when, when a lot of folks who sat in the right seat were warm bodies, I might be able to see the captain being god, but not today! We all get the Violation letter from the FAA or CAA or whatever branch you have. I am not going to sit still and let some egotistical butthead get me killed or violated!!!!!!

Now, with the likes of the captains who think they are God, what were they, when they were in the right seat???
Many nations have the F/O's do the same simrides that the captains do, are they not as qualified as the captain?? are they all just stupid warm bodies in the right seat? I think not!!

I would not want to fly with a F/O who said nothing, as much as I would not want to fly with a captain who can't admit he may be wrong!!

Remember, Don't become the pilot who you once hated to fly with!
Sorry about the rant!!

[uaecamel]

Well said Willit Run. I still remind myself that its not long ago that I was in the "right" seat, thinking I somtimes could do a better job. Now I am in the "left" seat, I also somtimes find I am with a much more experienced F/O, who does a better job than me. The problems start when you stop learning, whichever seat you are in!

[Cerberus]

The Captain is a pleasure to fly with, very laid back and safe. I have flown with him on several occasions and have always enjoyed his company, not hard work at all. If you are sitting in the right seat and believe that you are in some way better than him (Lots of hours on Airbus before EK) then I think his laid back attitude could prove annoying. (The old have not syndrome) The bottom line is that he maintains the big picture and gets the job done effectively without obsessing trivia.

Hound in answers to your questions, the F/O dobbed for what I consider totally trivial matters. However in his mind he thinks they are clearly extremely important, probably because the SOPs don't cover them. This is not the place to get into specifics.

Sorry folks, this isn't about CRM. (By the way CRM is 'Crew Resource Management' not 'Courtesy, Respect and Manners' as some of the previous posters seem to suggest) It isn't about safety, it is about 2 individuals on a flight deck not getting along. I know both of the parties involved well. The Captain can be too laid back and amenable for his own good at times which some F/Os might find frustrating but he is safe! The F/O can be too self important. It is also the clash of 2 different cultures and mentalities, 'laisser-faire' and 'a glass of wine with lunch' versus 'protein pills'.

Right lets get back into the 411a slagging......Lead to Number 2 in Vietnam. '2 you can say 3 things otherwise stay on cold mike! Twoop, Bingo and leads on fire!' Now those were the days when CRM was a mere glint in the eye of...


Cerberus

[reset_the_master_warning]

Good post Cerberus
The fact here is that Captains at EK have been reported before and it has generally been kept "in house". Simply because, like most, we realise that the Captain is not infallible and there are sometimes instances where a report may be justified. This particular instance has made the news because all that know the two individuals, know that the F/O is out to lunch and is likely to regret his decision in the fullness of time.

[Lunar at home]

I have just sat here and read every post regarding the F/O's complaint about a captain at EK. I would like to add that, although you guys and gals are sticking your point of views in, others, for example, myself, are learning. Learning what the 'real' world of aviation is, but i still have the positive things lurking around in my head. It is interesting, and I have never realised, that this whole airline pilot business is not easy going. Infact, it is pretty darn hard, and some of the situations you deal with, referring to crew not emergencies with the aircraft, are pretty serious in my opinion~which in question,COULD jeapordise the aircraft safety as some have mentioned.

Im only 17, with PPL, and i am out to Canada this year to get lots more hours as i am striving to be a pilot for X airline, and i will make it, but anyway, can I ask a few questions regarding this topic, as i am intersted to see what responses will be given. Perhaps others will too?

#1) How common is it that a crew will not get on? Obviously, many many airliners are flying at any one time, and for me, representing passengers generally, it could be quite discomforting to know that alot of the crews up there are arguing about things.

#2) Is it common, as an individual, to bring personal problems to the flight deck? Should you not, or are you not allowed, to say that you would like to not carry out the flight due to problems which you feel may affect the safety of the aircraft?

#3) Is CRM a course? If so, how much is it practise in a room with strangers during this course...because at the moment, i dont want to be rude by saying it doens't get taught alot?? :(

#4) Did any of you realise that people like myself are reading these and beginning to see the 'real' life some pilots have to live in?

#5) As a member of the flight deck crew, would you be happy in people talking about your actions publically?

You guys set the examples here...

Smooth skies,

Dan :)

[Check 'Six']

Welcome to the Real World. Generally speaking most flights are conducted with the required professionalism. However, two individuals at any given time will have a disagreement. Once again, professionalism is one of the answers to this conflict. That is why there is a commander on board. Complex stuff? Yes!! Aviation is still the way to travel.

Good luck with your career.

[amos2]

LaH...you're getting ahead of yourself...get your licences first and then talk to us! Let's face it, you might be selling used cars in 12 mths time!

Cerberus...spot on!
Who likes a "dobber", I don't! Could see no need for them when I was an F/O, can see no need for them now! Anybody out there who disagrees...you're in the wrong business! Get out of aviation and get into politics,law,finance or some other scumbag existence...but get out of aviation...believe me, you're not wanted...you're bad news!! ;)

[Lunar at home]

I am disgusted at your response and attitude towards me. So much for you being a captain. This is my point. With your 'whatever' attitude towards me, who knows what your like towards F/Os.

And as for selling cars, you ar**hole. That is so rude, and if you think you have a point, think again. Ive wanted this all my life, and pi** offs like you aint gonna dampen my commitment to the job. Hope you're retired by the time i start flying...


Dan... :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Capt PPRuNe]

The next person who finds themselves unable to discuss the topic and delves into personal abuse will find themselves banned and all their previous posts deleted. If you can't respond to the argument then don't bother posting anything because resorting to immature insults is not acceptable. Grow up! :mad:

[Captain Stable]

Lunar, CRM is "Cockpit (or Crew) Resource Management".

It has nothing to do with whether an FO justifiably or otherwise has a word with management about a Captain.

It is nothing to do with everyone on a flight deck having a nice, warm feeling about the person sitting next to them.

It is use of all resources available to you to complete a flight safely, legally and expeditiously.

Yes, it is taught. There is an initial course and then you are required to have annual refresher training.

As far as personality differences on the flight deck are concerned, it happens, as it happens in all other walks of life. Professionalism, however, dictates that you don't let that get in the way of a safe flight. You save arguments until you're on the ground. Thereafter, if you and a skipper want to go round the back of the building and resolve your differences, do so.

Similarly, personal problems can weigh heavily on a pilot's mind. A new baby, or divorce, or bereavement, or money troubles can all distract. Whilst these would not usually result in a pilot being unfit to fly, it is wise to give the other guy a "heads up" to let him know you may be a little distracted and to keep an eye on you. I did this with FO's I flew with just after my mother died. It's not a big deal. If it is, then there is nothing to stop a pilot requesting a bit of leave. If they know the circumstances, most Fleet Managers would be completely happy to grant it.

And finally, as far as discussing pilots' actions publicly, there is a fine line to be drawn. There's only one person who knows where it should be drawn, and he forgot. There's an old adage - "Learn from others' mistakes, because you won't have time to make them all yourself". Aviation works very much by sharing information, learning from other incidents and putting in place systems to prevent an incident that occurred in another airline recurring in yours. It's called being proactive. However, "publicly" is taking it a little far. Nobody within aviation that I know, for example, would be happy about CVR or Cockpit Video recordings of incidents being played on public radio or TV stations. The public have a right to know how an accident happened. They do not have the right to hear all the gruesome details of a pilot's last few minutes of life, nor do they have the right to those tapes to use in any lawsuit against his relatives and estate. Nor, further, should they be used in any criminal action against flightcrew.

Hope this all answers your questions.

[Lunar at home]

Well, thanks Captain Stable. I got the answers i seeked after three posts from others. I cannot believe myself that i had to be rude to another member. Captain PPRuNe, you have a point, but must not get annoyed and say what you said if it wasn't for people being rude to young wannabe's asking simple questions. I am very strong minded, and he was completely out of order. Should a simple answer be to complicated? I will say no more.

Smooth skies,

Dan...:rolleyes:

[holden]

Now that we have a few broad strokes on the personalities involved,courtesy of Cerebrus,the picture becomes clearer.
Pedantic book-worms dont mix well with the archetypal airmanship-oriented airline pilot.These pedants are usually unsure of their own abilities and seek refuge in the minutiae of the SOP manual as a defence mechanism.
Give me a pilot who knows his aircraft and who can extricate himself from a seemingly impossible situation using airmanship and improvisation(an often underrrated attribute for pilots).You can usually spot them.They might have a worn copy of the maintenance manual in their flight bag or they might spend twenty minutes in the hangar when the aircraft goes through a C check.Cognitive decision-making comes through experience and broad-based knowledge and understanding of the equipment you're operating.SOP rats excel through rote and very little imagination.Are SOP's important?Absolutely...but they have their place.Naturally,the two are not mutually-exclusive but one requires a cursory acknowledgement,the other is all-encompassing and saves lives.

[amos2]

Some clarification please, holden.
Are you saying that SOPS require only "cursory acknowledgment?" :confused:

[reset_the_master_warning]

Lunar
I think your CRM may need just a slight touch up!

[Chimbu chuckles]

Once upon a time at an airline I worked at we had a Captain who was old school without being old enough to have been around then.

He was an advanced alcoholic,
He was a known problem child...had been when he was an F/O and had been the bane of many an F/O since gaining his command.

The airline had always been a 'Captain's Airline' ie F/O's are seen and not heard. The older Captains, many of whom had NEVER been F/Os themselves actually referred to us as 'Dogs'.

Many years before when the airline sent it's first batch of crews to an early version of CRM this Captain was actually punched out at the bar the night before the course began...the puncher was sacked but the management pilots regretted not terminating the punchee ever after.

As an F/O I had joined this airline with 7000 hours within the small 3rd world country that it operated in...ie I knew the place like the back of my hand.

I was always a relaxed chap who never worried too much about the minutae and was always more interested in an enjoyable day spent doing 35 minute sectors around the mountains and coasts of this beautiful country in our company F28s. My attitude was stay close to SOPs, don't try and frighten/kill me, give me my fair share of sectors and I'll do my very best to be the best F/O you've ever flown with. My attitude then is as now(that I occupy the RHS generally only when conducting Checking/Training) the only effort worth anything is the team effort..If you are having a bad day it is my duty to make up the difference, when I'm having a bad day it is your duty to do the same. There are no such words in the cockpit as 'you' or 'me' only 'us' and 'we'.

Other F/Os had mentioned to me that among most of the Captains I was deemed very good at my job and pleasant to share a cockpit with...to my mind the ultimate professional compliment.

At some stage it became obvious to me that I was flying with this drunken idiot a lot more than 'rostering chance' would dictate...talking to the other F/os it became obvious that they were going sick rather than fly with him !

One of his worst habits was loading up his F/Os with extra work, like getting weather reports for other crews that would be coming on frequency soon (and going to different destos to us etc...my reply was "if you think they want us doing their job for them fill your boots...I'm busy"

On various occasions over a relatively short period of time, about 6 or 8 months probably, he tried,

* To descend below MSA in IMC at 6 or 7000'/min.

I ordered him, yes 411A 'ordered', to climb NOW!

* To change the temp/wind I gave the traffic officers to get more load in when the conditions hadn't changed...his reason? "Gotta get the job done for the company" Off a one way highland runway with a tailwind and ISA + 20:eek:

* To descended down a gorge with the IVSI pegged and the steeply sloping terrain less than 1000' below us. His response to my repeated deviation calls was of a similar tone to that we see here from 411A.

He actually tried to take a sector off the me once because

"The weather is forecast bad where we're going and I might have to bust the minimas to get in".

My response was "At the minima I will call MINIMA...you try and go below and my next call will be TAKING OVER"...the tone of my voice told him all he needed to know...I kept the sector, the weather was fine and we completed the day uneventfully.

And on and on through various scenarios.

Despite NUMEROUS conversations with him on my part, and MANY others over time, to try and change him....no joy!

Finally while crewing with a senior checkie I quietly voiced my concerns...his reaction?..."Ohh not him AGAIN!!!...If you're prepared to sign your name then go into print and I'll promise that we'll look into it"

Despite numerous warnings from other Captains that nothing would be done and stories of F/O's being reamed for doing the same over the years I went into print...nothing emotional just the facts...and the final paragraph was;

Quote:
If I am witness to any similar departures from SOPS in future I will be terminating my participation in the flight immediately, if on the ground or, if airborne, at the completion of the Parking Checklist.
End Quote:

I handed the letter to the Fleet Captain personally...he had heard what was going on and WAS NOT HAPPY about having to deal with the situation....luckily he liked/ respected me.

I said to him "N..do nothing if you want...it doesn't worry me, but be advised that one day you WILL get a phone call from me from an outport somewhere saying send another F/O cause I'm not budging...and I will NOT be talked into bringing the aircraft back!"

His reply was "You're one of the easiest F/Os we have to get along with...he will be dealt with!"

What I didn't learn until later was 6 other F/Os went into print after they heard I was.

They were going to demote him but another Captain said "No give him to me and I'll retrain him"...after 2 months that Captain, at his wits end, put him up for a check..which he passed..he was back in the LHS with the warning that the very next complaint from an F/O would cause instant demotion with no discussion whatsoever....he last 2 months! He resigned rather than be demoted and is now drinking himself to death...literally!

What's is really sad is that he was quite a good stick and rudder pilot and on the ground away from aircraft a very generous man.

In an aircraft he was a disaster...particularly as the day wore on and the booze wore off!

Do I pity him or feel sorry for him...of course...but we did the right thing.

Chuck.

[[email protected]]

Chimbu, right up until I read your (very good) post, I was going to suggest that some of the airlines should instigate a 'Happy Hour' for their crews, a la military, as the bar is a very good place to get together and sort minor problems and personality clashes out before they become major problems in the air.
However, this might not have helped the guy in your story as he probably would have either started a fight or drunk himself unconscious at every opportunity.
For the rest of us the CRM issue never goes away and as you get older, despite how great you were when you were young, you make mistakes; maybe only little errors at first, but unless you recognise your fallibility and learn to use the rest of the crew wisely you are committing the worst of sins in aviation - allowing arrogance and self importance to get in the way of Flight Safety.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Crabetc,

We had a 'happy hour' setup...most of us were based offshore and when doing our 4 or 5 days a week on duty in country were housed in the same hotel.

The Hotel, undoubtedly wanting to keep us away from other guests, had given us a large room complete with full size pool table, huge carved wooden bar, big glass fronted bar fridge, TV with cable and sufficient low tables and soft lounge chairs. They sold us booze at cost and room 217:D was administered by myself and two other F/os....after the Captain in question was banned by the company from being anywhere near it and had been forced to attend counciling for his problem in Australia...where we were all nominally based. Banning him didn't work as he just drank himself into oblivion alone in his room...and after a few months when things 'quitened down' he started frequenting the bar again...having a few beers and then taking a sh!tload back to his room for later.

It was as good as any RAF/RAAF Officers Mess setup I've ever heard of and the drinking and parties were something to behold:D

The airline in question also had a VERY good CRM course which had been put together by a senior airbus captain....which was essentially wasted on captains like this guy and a few others but which prepared us younger blokes as well as could be expected...it even had a pretend section labeled by the head CRM bloke specially for this captain and named after him....as I said, he'd been a well known problem... for about 15 years!

Yes he was an extreme example...and there were a couple of less extreme examples we also had to deal with on a daily basis...but that's life in the big bad world!

Chuck.

[morto]

Whoa everyone, keep chillin'!
Regarding the rights and wrongs of going behind someone's back, well many people just don't deal well with confrontation. Captains often say that they would expect the F/O to raise any issues with them first, but not everyone is cut out for that and often that in itself can lead to tension. Also, it's fine for the small stuff but when we get to be talking about SOP's and standards, well, that often becomes the job of someone else higher up the food chain from the F/O. At work we could discreetly bid to avoid flying with a particular captain that we had a problem with. Nobody but the computer got involved until a flying block couldn't be built around him. The system worked great for all those little personality clashes, and eventually showed firm evidence of a problem. Just some thoughts of mine......Bye the way I think those comments about there being no "You" or "Me" just "Us" and "We" were spot on. Remember, if the Captain has wound up high and fast there is a good chance that the F/O's support has been lacking. Also, I think those comments about the company not backing up the Captain are the opposite of spot on. I actually had a guy say the same thing to me one day. He had lots of no fly bids against him I understand....................

[Wayne Jenkins]

Flightlevel Collegues.......

All crews these days don't spend their time in the Flight Levels......or have their command seat on the left side...??

Helicopter crews spend their day in the weather, not above it........however Human Factors is just as big an issue down low.

I find that a few minutes [even seconds] dedicated to a debrief of all flights between the players, always seems to allow the potential of conflict to be rationalised. To date, this has always allowed all parties the necessary forum to air their viewpoints........

[PPRuNe Towers]

Wayne's final paragraph touches on one of the most important directions state of the art CRM programmes are moving towards.

It's going to be a long and rocky road seeing it happen but the debrief, even one taking a minute, is going to prove itself a vital tool for safety. It's difficult biting our tongues and holding back 18 months on from seeing the initial and utterly extraordinary results of the safety/CRM survey from Lufthansa which, I believe, will change many companies views on the subjects discussed on this forum.

Rob

[SLF3]

Complaints are like performance reviews: they tell you as much about the reviewer as the person being reviewed.

Recognising this, in a well run organisation, people will not be scared of making a justified complaint: they will think hard about whether the complaint is justified, but not about whether they should complain. Further, they will be confident that if their complaint is justified 'something will be done', and they will not suffer for coming forward.

Managers in such organisations will know their people well enough to be able to make value judgements about the people involved, and if they can't to find people who can. They will recognise genuine complaints that have merit, and will act on them.

I have a lot of people working for me. A few are serial complainers, recognised as such, and are periodically told to go away and grow up. Some will come with what they think is a serious issue, but I don't. I'll tell them why they are wrong, and expect them to respect my decision. (Sometimes, I will be wrong, but that's life.) Every now and again someone will come and tell me something that I need to know, and could not have identified for myself. Almost always, I will hear it from several places at once. Occasionally, I'll have to be patient, or find a way to verify it for myself. No-one is going to get crucified on one persons whim. But for the overall health of the organisation individuals who are underperforming need to be identified, and the company (and public) needs to be protected from them. Sometimes (alcoholics) they need to be protected from themselves.

Once the door of the cockpit closes there is very little a management can do to check on what goes on. One of the depressing things about Pprune, particularly in the context of something as important as flying commercial aircraft, is that it seems that pilots are prepared to fly with conspicuous underachievers, or people with serious personal problems, and do nothing about it. Is this because airline managments are all serially bad, or out of a misplaced sense of loyalty to the pilot community?

If Emirates are half the airline people claim, and the incidents were as trivial as people are saying, the captain should know he has nothing to fear. The F/O should have been told to grow up, in terms appropriate to the nature of his problem, and might have learnt one of life's lessons. Pilots in the bar, sipping iced tea, (as I'm sure they always do), would have commented 'silly sod', (if they ever heard about it) and left it at that.

And 411A would have had nothing to comment on. Utopia at last!

[Airbusser]

Guys,

It seems to me that; despite all the crm courses given all over the world, some people just do not want to accept the use of it.

I totally agree, when two (or more) people work as a crew on board of an aircraft, nobody should file a rapport behind the other ones their backs....

Arent we being told that we should talk to eachother in order to solve the problem? Only if this does not work a rapport is in place, but with the knowledge of the one concerned! And even than a rapport is a really bad way to solve the situation.

I do have to admit thouigh that it is very unfortunately that in some companies it is not generally accepted that a copilot files a rapport! The consequences than are " no more flying, bullying by the capt,.......
These actions are really devostating for the fligfht safety and I think that should be our major concern!

We are all supposed to be grown ups.....well than, act as one! Captains, dont misuse your power. Try to be a little understanding and talk it out with your F/O. Most probably he will have misunderstood something you said or misinterpreted an action you did!
Copilots, dont be childish and talk to your skipper! He might just appreciate your comment as this should be part of your airmanship required for your possible upgrade!

Remember: it takes two to fly our modern airplanes. And this does not mean just being in the cockpit, no, your brain has to be there aswell in order to function as a team!

To end Ill post a poem (:cool: ) I found out of in the beginning of my carreer as a pilot! It has been accopnanying me since than on all my trips, just to remind me of how it used to be! ENJOY!

THE COPILOT

I'm the copilot, I sit on the right,
Its up to me to be quick and bright.
I never talk back for I have regrets,
I have to remember what the captain forgets.
I make up the flight plan and study the weather,
Pull up the gear and stand by to feather.
Make out the forms and do the reporting,
and fly the old crate while the captain is courting.

I take the readings and adjust the power,
Put on the heaters when we're in a shower.
I give him his bearings in the darkest of nights,
And do all the bookwotrk without any lights.
I call for my captain and give him a Coke,
And I always laugh at his corniest joke.
And once in a while, when his landings are rusty,
I always come by with: " By gosh, but it's gusty!"

So all in all, I am a general stooge.
As I sit on the right of the man I call "scrooge"
I suppose you think thats past understanding,
But maybe some day he'll give me a landing!


Nice atmosphere, isnt it?

[HugMonster]

Some excellent points, Airbusser. Sadly, there are people in this industry who lack the ideal level of professionalism that most of us aspire to.

For example, I know of an experienced pilot, TRE/IRE and "entrepreneur" who frequently refers to his FOs as "secretaries". I know of another, now, thankfully, retired from a job as Fleet Manager at a second-line airline who has slapped the hands of an FO who reached over to change a frequency on the RT, and said in the hearing of several that an FO of his would touch the controls "over my dead body".

As you say, CRM has a long way to go.

Incidentally, I found it slightly confusing reading your post. I appreciate that English is not your first language, so am not intending to criticise, just to explain, but just for future reference, "rapport" means much the same in English as in French - an understanding, a good working relationship, co-operation. I think you meant to use "report" which, in the context of your post, is a document filed with management on how the flight went, performance of the crew, etc. A couple of times in reading your post, I was not sure whether we were talking about the relationship between the two pilots, or what one says to management about the other! :)

SLF, you also make some very good points. I wish that all my managers had been like you! ;) As for your question about why pilots don't complain more, yes, to a certain extent it might be the closed nature of the profession. However, a more significant reason, I might suggest, could be that, particularly when complaining about a relatively senior Captain, he will probably have known for some time (and therefore be good friends with) the management pilots to whom the complaint is made. Aviation is a very small world, everyone knows everyone, and most people don't want to get a reputation, or to upset people above them. If they want to move on a couple of years from now, it may well be the Captain about whom they registered a complaint who is asked for a reference...

[Airbusser]

Thanks for the tips Hugmonster. I was not quit sure myself but now I know...It should have been report than I guess...

Thanks;)

[richie-rich]

amos2.......while the guys at this thread have been implying the necessity of CRM, u come out of the blue and ask a guy of 17 to finish his training and then 'talk to us.'

i, for once, didnt notice a tone of anger or short-sightedness in his voice. he merely asked the people here few questions regarding the friendship\relationship between a captain and a first officer. now, this wannabe has so many questions in his mind which he looks forward to being answered.

if such is your tone, then i advise u to work on it. not gonna take u anywhere in life. not sure about your age though.

i myself, like the canadian 17 year old guy, am learning a lot from pilots around the world surfing this site. dont come out with brash tone and knock us down.

chill amos2......chill!
richie-rich

:D

[purr]

maybe some communities are looked down upon:o what they say is not registered.

[G.Khan]

Purr - care to expand on that?

[purr]

the f\o was very wrong in not maintaining decorum.By which I mean when an airline trains pilots and entrusts responsibility to the aircrew they are in effect entrusting the lives of so many
people and the rep of the airline .Both the Capt and the F/O
now have accepted the responsibility .A Captain being the more senior (mature) has now to conduct the flight in an approriate manner by setting the correct pace with all concerned, sometimes the cabin crew come in upset about something a captain should talk to them make them relax until he is sure that they are in tune with him and apart from other briefing the way he would like to conduct the flight.The same applies to the F/O .Sometimes the F/O has some history which the Capt knows about his past maybe .The Capt in this case should make a resolution BEFORE
the flight as to how he is to approach the F/O and make him a
team player.
Some Captains get along very well with certain types, if he is from his hometown all the better.
The other end of the curve are these two unfortunate souls.

this is not the first time this has happened in aviation nor is it going to be the last
:cool: