collision

[9gmax]

bbc reports accident between glider and skydiver...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_2020000/2020889.stm[URL=http://]

[Robert Cooper]

A sad tale. How on earth do you avoid someone falling from above?
Gives a whole new meaning to "these crowded skies".

:(

BC

[Zlin526]

Robert Cooper,

Its quite simple really.

Not wishing to pre-judge the AAIB investigation you understand.. But you avoid being hit by a 90kg skydiver by not flying through an active (and notified) parachute drop zone.................

Condolences to all those concerned for what was surely an avoidable accident?

[djk]

I only just read about that one :(

[poetpilot]

I know people who glide at Hinton. I don't want you to post names here, just point me to any public domain site if you see names mentioned. Thanks very much.

[BEagle]

But if an aerodrome is notified simultaneously as an active gliding site, unlicensed aerodrome and parachuting site - and there isn't even a FISO at that aerodrome, who says who does what when? Is there a gentlemans' agreement - or a law of the jungle?

Without prejudice to any ongoing investigations, to mix parachuting and any other aerial activity at the same place and time does not seem to me to be the cleverest thing to do.

My condolences to the bereaved.

[andrewc]

So how much distance should you put between an
active parachuting aerodrome and your flight track
for reasonable safety?

Presumably the parachutists jump from upwind of the
field, but what lateral distance is this typically?

-- Andrew

[9gmax]

the two sports should never be done on the same field...

at our airfield we have simultaneous gliding and parachutejumps....however the jumping itself is done 3 miles north of the field, with shuttle bus bringing the jumpers back to the airfield afterwards...
gliders are closely monitored and from the first day it is made clear to all gliders NEVER EVER to head north of the field....monitoring of the gliders is done by somebody appointed as 'gliding supervisor' and he is in constant radiocontact on the gliding frequency....if someone goes too close to the pj-site he/she is warned on the radio....
that's how we do it, and have been accident-free for the last 25 years..........

[BEagle]

I was taking off from one particular aerodrome having made all the appropriate RT calls - the next thing I knew was parachutists landing just off the runway on the grass.....

At the same aerodrome there was an Eastern European operated twin which was used by parachutists. One snag - the pilot did not understand English....or, if he did, no-one could understand him!

On another occasion I actually heard the 'jumpmaster' announcing that parachutists were in the air - and telling a light ac to keep away or he would be 'reported'. The light ac replied that he was inbound to the field, would the jumpmaster please let him know when all jumpers were down. To which the unhelpful reply "This is an active parachuting site" was given....

[FNG]

BEagle, might that be a certain aerodrome in Kent with an association with a stripy kind of feline?

What a horrible accident. Ten years ago or so someone I vaguely knew through work died horribly parachuting into a hovering helicopter, but I've heard of no other such incidents, thankfully.

[BEagle]

No. You mean that there's more than one place like that.....

[trolleydollylover]

B Eagle

I am sure I know the field that you mean in LIncolnshire/ Cambs. I would agree with you that there are complete tossers who run the buisness. However blaming the pilots of the Let is not correct as at least one of the pilots has acceptable english as a pre requisite of flying for the company. _ Unless the company is breaking the contract.

However if peoplpe also checked there pooleys and all other publications they would see that there is approach proceedures for the field. Yes I agree that there are idiots who jump. This is a minority however I have also seen pilots fly through the drop zone again not many.

[Skylark4]

Very sad, my condolences to the bereaved.

To add to the discussion:- I fly from Hinton and Weston on the green. i don`t like the parachutists operating at hinton but have to put up with it. You NEVER fly overhead at Hinton and just keep away till all are on the ground, including the jump aircraft. That`s the theory anyway. At Weston the Gliding operation is subservient to the Parachuting and we are briefed very carefully about where we may, or may not go. Basically, all gliding is downwind of the airfield within the published danger area. If you are intending landing at Weston, you must be in radio contact with the Oxford gliding Club on 130.1 or with Weston DZ, Can`t remember their frequency.
There were two gliders in the Weston DA on Saturday afternoon. Two aircraft were dropping from 12,500 feet at the time. I don`t think the Pilots had seen the gliders until they were pointed out to them by Brize Radar. They may be hearing from the CAA. It depends on whether or not they could make out the registrations through the very powerful, tripod mounted binoculars they have at the DZ.
The last case of infringement I can remember being reported at Oxford Crown Court resulted in a fine of £4000. I cant remember if he kept his Licence. That was Power by the way. Using GPS rather than maps to navigate. Straight line to Oxford Kidlington went overhead Weston.

Mike W

[BEagle]

'I am sure I know the field that you mean in Lincolnshire/ Cambs'.

That makes 3.........

[tacpot]

As to andrewc's question, I've done a quick calculation, and based on a static line jump from 10,000ft, the parachutist will be in the air for 6.6 minutes. A 10 knot wind will blow them 1.1nm downwind in this time.

If we assume that parachutists don't jump if the wind is much greater than 30-40 knots at height, leaving a lateral distance of 5nm should give a margin of safety under most conditions.

I'm assuming that above 10,000ft, sky-divers will be free falling, so falling at much greater speeds, and will be blown off course much less; so I'd guess 5nm would be good for most situations.

Anyone got any better information?

[Zlin526]

I've never read such un-informed bollox in my life.........In addition to all the useless drivel about the L39 accident in another thread. Are there any real pilots among you?

Beagle, I always thought your posts were quite well written and informed.....maybe I was wrong.

At last, an incentive to stop reading this BB.......:mad:

[BEagle]

Goodbye, Zlin526...

I am somewhat at a loss regarding your post. Yes - I commented that a certain aerodrome I have enountered mixed light ac, gliding and parachuting on the same aerodrome simultaneously, but without any positive control over each activity. Hence activities were something of a free-for-all; this was hardly the safest way to run recreational aviation, in my personal view.

If you find something unacceptable about that, then pray tell...

[andrewc]

Zlin526

It would be more impressive if you raised a single fact,
argument or even stated what you objected too about
the previous thread contents...obviously by your definition
you think you must be a real pilot but the impression
you've left behind does you little credit.

-- Andrew

[9gmax]

ZLIN 526,
pls give us the definition of a "real pilot" and we'll let you know if we are or not....
but.....checking on the history of your postings I doubt it if you could tell us what a real pilot is.......for you are definitely not one...
( ps : as for myself, I know who I am and what I am, and therefor will never ever say I'm a real pilot....)
Matter closed now.

[smarthawke]

As someone who works and flies at a grass airfield on which powered flying and parachuting takes place, situated on the borders of Cambs, Leics, Lincs and Northants, may I respectfully add the following (by the way, we call it Sibson - why does no-one have the courage to name places round here?):

Here the powered flying and parachuting have used the airfield together for over 30 years - we get on well and even share the bar! A number of the skydivers have learnt to fly with us and some of us have even been known to have a go at parachuting... These people are not the enemy, they just use the air in a different way to us - it would be a boring world if we all did the same thing!

The Drop Zone is over half a mile to the NW of the runways and we have no overhead join or deadside with all the circuits to the S or E. The Peterborough Parachute Centre is extremely safety concious and very strictly run.

The parachute centre's Let 410 is crewed by Ukranians who speak and understand English. It drops up to 16 skydivers from 13,000 ft. Solo skydivers can fall at up to 200mph and pull at about 2500ft, tandems pull higher at about 5000ft. They can operate as long as they are in sight of the surface and with surface wind speeds of up to 20kts. If the spot is accurate then they may exit the aircraft a couple of miles up wind. Skydivers can be a miute in freefall and up to five minutes under canopy.

Students (static line) drop from 3500ft and also use steerable square canopies these days. A Cessna 206 is used for this and occasionally high lifts as well.

We frequently have aircraft (powered and gliders) overflying the DZ/airfield at a height which puts them in the ATZ (and Wittering's ATZ just up the road). On Saturday there were 4 or 5 aircraft that flew through the overhead - I saw a Robin DR400 fly through at about 1500ft 2 minutes after the parachutists had landed - without calling up on the Sibson A/G. (We try to keep the A/G manned as much as possible, although this isn't a legal requirement).

If our skydivers get a registration they normally try and track down the pilot and have a word in their ear about safety. Most take it in the manner it is intended and are thankful for the chat, others get stroppy and try and blame everyone else. The worst of these end up getting letters from the CAA.

The scariest calls are from students on a nav ex wanting to turn overhead - what sort of instructor tells a student to plan a cross country using an active DZ as a turning point?! Cabair from Cranfield used to be the favourites at that.

Plan your flight to go around all DZs - a couple of extra minutes on your flight time is all it will take (unless you are landing there - and we love to see visitors at Sibbo - as long as the simple joining procedures are followed, as published in the Air Pilot, AFE VFR Guide, Pooley's etc).

I apoligise for the long post but this is literally a matter of life and death. Tell your friends - spread the word, let's all enjoy the airspace in whatever form we want, be it powered, gliding or skydiving - there's plenty for everyone.

Jerry

[BEagle]

Incidentally, Sibson was NOT the aerodrome to which I was referring.

[Keef]

I was taught *never* to fly overhead a parachuting site, never to do an overhead join at an airfield with a parachuting symbol, and to give them a wide berth at all other times. I'm horrified that people bimble about in the sky without checking for parachuting (and other activities, too).

But I have had "bad experience" of parachuting sites. On a jolly last year with another PPL friend, we called a parachuting site in the Cambs/Leics/Lincs/Northants area to ask if they were active. We were given a right royal telling-off on the radio for even thinking of going near. Since we were VFR on top of an 8/8 overcast at the time, that made me very uneasy. We flew 10nm South of them to avoid any risk of hitting any IMC parachutists.

It wasn't Sibson. I phoned the place when we landed, and got more abuse. Not "polite warning" - but downright abuse. My buddy was tempted to complain to the CAA, but in the end didn't bother.

[Final 3 Greens]

I know the airfield in Kent that FNG mentions; once had a a similar experience to BEagle there, except that 5 landed to the north of the runway and an errant sixth to the south.

Pretty alarming!

[greyglider]

:( :( The same type of sad event happened in 97 in south of france the UK glider pilots were lucky and lived the jumper did not
they were I belive charged with manslaughter.

[trolleydollylover]

Dear Jerry
I didnt know that you frequented these pages...
However the parachute centre management certainly isnt professional. Although the staff are and work like troopers to keep the business going. I dont often believe that this is known by the afformentioned.
I do agree that the airfield does run extremely well and I enjoy the atmosphere greatly. I must question the ability of the 206 pilot, (who looks like honey monster) has he passed is ATPL exams? or his PPL for that matter?
Hope all is well down at sins knob...

One two three one:p

PS can aircrew mechs count higher than this?:confused:

[D 129]

Tragic.

I have flown for a long time out of Weston on the Green (D 129)and Kidlington.

Gliders and parachutists can mix - albeit on the ground at Weston we sometimes felt we played second fiddle - losing out on a launch slots etc - but always "better safe".

Pre flight briefing for Weston gliders always includes - do not go in the DZ which today is here ... infringements were occasional, most often by "strangers".

Rookie parachutists can be a hazard, landing well outside the intended area - but since they are on are static released at 2,000 or thereabouts, they are typically low and visible. The accident mentioned sounds like someone was in free fall - I wonder how high they were when they collided & presumably the glider pilot did not get a chance to jump ?. (Most glider pilots wear parachutes - unlike their powered bretheren - but getting out of a glider at high 'g' is not straightforward ...).

Basic advice is obviously - power pilots stay far away from any DZ - or only enter it when the parachutists give clearance. (Do the frequencies need to be displayed more clearly ?. Nav warning bulletins ?).

At Kidlington they are well used to Weston being active and pilots rejoining from anywhere east are quite often advised to come in via Westcott - passing well to the south of Weston.

D 129

[floppyjock]

Tacpot

I dont know where you got your information from, but in this country we dont do static line jumps from 10,000ft.

Most DZs also use Ram Air parachutes with forward speeds of up to 20 Knots. There are only 2 DZs that I know off that still use the old round parachutes for training.

There is no limit reguarding the upper wind limits, we are only restricted by the ground winds so dont assume anything, we will jump in it if you can fly in it.

Lets take the worst case where a jumper has a premature opening at an exit height of say 10,000ft with an upper of wind of 40knots and a 6.6 mins in the air which you suggest and facing down wind because he/she is disorientated. Not forgetting to add on a canopy speed of 20 knots making a ground speed of 60 knots. That makes a distance of 6.6 Naut miles if my whiz wheel is correct. But like I say, this is worst case.

In this country static line RamAir is done from 3500ft and free fall from up to 15,000 ft and are open by 2200ft. The 5NM you suggest is a good distance as a minimum, any closer you could be asking for trouble. Not only from jumpers but from jump aircraft in the decent.

You can also check with the DZ as most DZs use the common freq of 129.9 in the UK.

If anyone is flying in the east Fife area dont be afraid to give me a call when you passing the DZ at St Andrews I dont bite.

Floppy

[Volume]

The ´97 accident in france is not only a sad day for pilots, but even more for justice. The skydivers jumped through a closed cloud layer and hit the twinseater glider flying about 500 ft below the clouds, so there were about 2 seconds between the skydiver falling out of the clouds and the collision. Nearly impossible for a pilot to react, even if he would have known that there are skydivers.
The parachutist was killed and both pilots survived. They were charged, mainly because they were closer to the cloud base as allowed (500 instead of 1000 ft). Nothing said about jumping through 8/8 AC might be illegal by the skydiver. Strange court there in france, especially for non french.

I am flying frequently at a (french) airfield with very mixed traffic (gliders, mororgliders, planes, microlight, models and parachutists) and it´s working pretty well. The parachutist´s plane announces the jumps 5 and 1 Minutes before and reports the moment when the skydivers are out. So if you listen to your radio, you are aware of the parachutists and there are no problems. If you are below 1500 ft on the 5 Minute anouncement, you are either allready on the ground or still well below opening altitude of the parachutes, if you are above you can easily leave the drop zone for a few minutes.

[BLW Skylark 4]

Like my namesake earlier in this thread, I too fly at WOTG or D129 as it is probably better known to most GA pilots.

As stated, the operation works well at WOTG most of the time, (albeit it can be frustrating at times!) provided that the pilots, the DZ controller and equally the parachutists are briefed about what is going on and who goes where! You would not believe the number of times you see parachutists land or walk across the winch cables though, usually to the frustration of both the DZ controller and the pilot who is waiting for a launch!

When RAFSPA is operating, every launch is cleared via the DZ controller (133.65 if anyone wants to maintain a listening watch) and the two activities are kept pretty much apart.

One query from this unfortunate incident though:-

Q. The inversion on Saturday was about 3,500 AGL - presumably the K8 was local soaring, so if the para was in free-fall at this point, isnt this a bit low or was he/she under canopy when the collision happened?

The biggest danger to all of us is complacency, how often do you see powered aircraft landing short with canopies in the air etc?:cool:

[floppyjock]

Skylark

Parachutists must have their main parachutes open by 2000ft.

Floppy

[jayemm]

I am a PPL with just over 150 hours, so not very experienced.

On my first trip to Lashenden/Headcorn about two years ago, I phoned beforehand for the usual permission and information. They didn't say anything about parachuting, but were very friendly.

I joined downwind, and when on final was astonished to see parachutists descending off to the right of the threshold at what seemed like a hundred metres (but was probably more).

I took a double-check and called final a second time just to check I hadn't misheard and could proceed.

I felt concerned that a gust could easily blow a parachutist (they looked like trainees) towards the runway, but then assumed that the operators know what they're doing, and that everything was under control. Or is it up to me and my discretion as the guy flying the plane to go round/not land? Who has control in these circumstances?

Confused of Reading.

[full opposite rudder]

Parachute drop sites are a real problem for every airspace user. The circles on the map do not constitute the extent of the drop zone. Consider Weston for instance, there are occaisons there when they could be dropping outside the DA. At Sibson or Hinton I should imagine they regularly drop outside the circle; I would appreciate a comment from a more knowledgable party.

The other big problem is that there are many drop sites that are dispalyed on the 1/2 mill. map that only operate on a 28 day basis, ie. thereby not requiring planning permission. So some of the so-called zones shown on the map are not active for most of the time. how is a GA pilot, glider, micro, ballon or whatever supposed to know?

Wouldn't it be a better system if these part-time zones were activated by notam, in the same way as PJE's are notified when not associated with a designated drop site? I think the maps should also dispaly drop zones in red and not in blue.

[Legalapproach]

I regularly jump from Sibson and from my experience it would be very unusual to exit outside the circle shown on the charts.

Normal exit from the Let is 13 - 13.5K. Freefall is down to between 5k (AFF students/tandems) and 2.5k for experienced jumpers. Normally we wouldn't jump with a wind groundspeed much above 20k. As we effectively drop through a tunnel over or close to our intended landing point a normal 60 second freefall would result in the following drift:

At 60nm wind speed 1 nautical mile

At 50nm wind speed .83 of a nautical mile

At 40nm wind speed .66 of a nautical mile

At 30nm wind speed .5 of a nautical mile

As the circle around a dropzone has a diameter of 5nm it is extremely unlikely that you would encounter a freefalling jumper outside the zone. On the other hand occasionaly the jump master will get the spot wrong so keep well clear. Its also worth noting that jumpers don't all exit the aircraft at the same time so there will be something of a spread although all would be expected pretty much to be within the dropzone shown on the ICAO charts.

TDL
Who exactly do you define as the management of the centre? I hope you do not include the Chief instructor in your critcisms. I agree with your comments about the staff but have found the
whole operation to be professional and Sibson has the best safety record of any drop zone in the UK.

Smarthawke,
I didn't notice the Robin on Saturday but watched two microlights in lose formation do an overhead join exactly over the landing pit.

Full opposite rudder
As not every pilot studies the notams before every flight isn't it better that every dropzone be considered constantly active. As a glider pilot for 27 years and a power pilot for 23 years I can't say that a 2.5 nm deviation from track is a major inconvenience to anyone.

[SteveR]

jayemm
I took a double-check and called final a second time just to check I hadn't misheard and could proceed.
Headcorn is an A/G 'drome - you can call final as often as you like, it's down to you to decide what to do ;-)
I felt concerned that a gust could easily blow a parachutist (they looked like trainees) towards the runway, but then assumed that the operators know what they're doing, and that everything was under control. Or is it up to me and my discretion as the guy flying the plane to go round/not land? Who has control in these circumstances? I think you know the answer - you and only you.

It can indeed be interesting at Headcorn. I did my 3rd hour of solo down there, 6 or 7 circuits, with an Extra doing aeros practice *inside* the circuit - ie, halfway between the runway and the downwind leg. S/he was above me, then below me, then above me again, but always out there on my left. Eventually I got tired, and a bit rattled, and did a full stop.

[Final 3 Greens]

Steve R

No such thing as Headcorn A/G.

Try Lashenden Radio! ;)

[bookworm]

full opposite rudder said
Parachute drop sites are a real problem for every airspace user. The circles on the map do not constitute the extent of the drop zone.

and Legalapproach replied
As the circle around a dropzone has a diameter of 5nm it is extremely unlikely that you would encounter a freefalling jumper outside the zone.

Unfortunately you seem to be talking about different circles. The circles around FFPSs on the UK half-mil charts are just 3 nm in diameter, not 5 nm.

I disagree that constantly avoiding FFPSs isn't a major inconvenience. If I look at a flight from Cambridge to Bristol for example, there are 6 FFPSs (and at least 4 gliding sites) that are potential issues. Throw in a little weather avoidance and it's a nightmare.

Considering that FFPSs are 'hot' for only a tiny fraction of the time, the burden on other airspace users is, IMHO, a greater burden than most controlled airspace, taking into account the utility that the primary users of the airspace get.

The best thing that happened to this interaction was the arrangement described in AIC 28/1999 (http://www.ais.org.uk/Uk_aip/pdf/aic/4Y323.PDF ) and the requirement for DZ operators to inform a local ATSU of the activity of the DZ. Now, by talking to Luton and Brize, which I probably would have done anyway, I can be assured that I will be able to find out the activity status easily.

[Legalapproach]

Bookworm,
Erm yes you are quite right although when I measured it against a map a couple of days ago it appeared to be be 5 nm. Don't know where that came from although it may have been the vodka sent by brother approach who is with th EEC delegation in Moscow. Having said that why is it a great problem as the jumpers will still be within the circle on the map. As to obstacles, on virtually any cross country there will be plenty of areas to avoid so again what is the problem? If the circle is only 3.5nm its an even smaller deviation.

If you find that avoiding such areas is a nightmare then I am afraid that may say more about your concerns as a pilot than the preponderance of avoidance areas. I suspect that what you are really complaining about is the inconvenience of having to plan around such areas rather than actually encountering them as they cannot amount to more than a minor inconvenience to most pilots. I don't mean to appear personal but from persoanl experience I am sure that we have all experienced minor navigational inconveniences but deal with them.

If I fly from East Anglia to Bristol I experience a number of deviations but c'est la vie I w't really describe them as a nightmare.

[bookworm]

Legalapproach

I take your point. "Nightmare" is too strong a word. But I have a perception that many accidents are workload-related. It's never the case that avoidance of a particular hazard itself gets the pilot into trouble, but rather it's the straw that breaks the camel's back.

It's all very well to talk about the 'inconvenience of having to plan around', but most plans have to be dynamic. Weather and ATC conspire against a pilot to ensure that even the best battle plans never survive first contact with the enemy. If you can manage to fly IFR from East Anglia to Bristol out of ground contact on a convective day with serious weather around, and be 100% confident that you can give all the hazards along the way due consideration, then I'll happily admit that you're a better pilot than me.

I fully support the cause of all airspace users, and I firmly believe that we need to learn to coexist. There does however, need to be a balance between the rights and responsibilities of the various parties. The DZ notification arrangement in place for the last few years has done a great deal for that balance.

[sunnysideup]

As a regular visitor to Hinton (almost weekly), I read this thread with interest.

Heres a story......

On a quick hop from Turweston on the day before the accident, I immediately switched to Hintons Frequency which, incidently, the parachuting people use all the time, and listened to a general broadcast announcing a drop (as they always seem to do when I'm just about to join!). I kept my distance (I prefer about 4nm to be safe) and waited for the announcement that everyone was down). Turning onto final, I was cut up not once, but twice, by a motor glider who made no radio announcements (and obviously wasn't on a listening watch, if he even had a radio). I then watched him taxi for another departure during the next drop!

Ive never been gliding, so I don't even know if gliders normally have radios. But it seems to me that with the good, friendly advise and information from the people at Hinton, a glider pilot, or any other for that matter, should have a radio and use it.

Communication - I know many aging pilots who think that a Radio interferes with the freedom of flying. God knows how they got so aged............