collision
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collision
bbc reports accident between glider and skydiver...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/...00/2020889.stm[URL=http://]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/...00/2020889.stm[URL=http://]
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Robert Cooper,
Its quite simple really.
Not wishing to pre-judge the AAIB investigation you understand.. But you avoid being hit by a 90kg skydiver by not flying through an active (and notified) parachute drop zone.................
Condolences to all those concerned for what was surely an avoidable accident?
Its quite simple really.
Not wishing to pre-judge the AAIB investigation you understand.. But you avoid being hit by a 90kg skydiver by not flying through an active (and notified) parachute drop zone.................
Condolences to all those concerned for what was surely an avoidable accident?
But if an aerodrome is notified simultaneously as an active gliding site, unlicensed aerodrome and parachuting site - and there isn't even a FISO at that aerodrome, who says who does what when? Is there a gentlemans' agreement - or a law of the jungle?
Without prejudice to any ongoing investigations, to mix parachuting and any other aerial activity at the same place and time does not seem to me to be the cleverest thing to do.
My condolences to the bereaved.
Without prejudice to any ongoing investigations, to mix parachuting and any other aerial activity at the same place and time does not seem to me to be the cleverest thing to do.
My condolences to the bereaved.
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So how much distance should you put between an
active parachuting aerodrome and your flight track
for reasonable safety?
Presumably the parachutists jump from upwind of the
field, but what lateral distance is this typically?
-- Andrew
active parachuting aerodrome and your flight track
for reasonable safety?
Presumably the parachutists jump from upwind of the
field, but what lateral distance is this typically?
-- Andrew
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the two sports should never be done on the same field...
at our airfield we have simultaneous gliding and parachutejumps....however the jumping itself is done 3 miles north of the field, with shuttle bus bringing the jumpers back to the airfield afterwards...
gliders are closely monitored and from the first day it is made clear to all gliders NEVER EVER to head north of the field....monitoring of the gliders is done by somebody appointed as 'gliding supervisor' and he is in constant radiocontact on the gliding frequency....if someone goes too close to the pj-site he/she is warned on the radio....
that's how we do it, and have been accident-free for the last 25 years..........
at our airfield we have simultaneous gliding and parachutejumps....however the jumping itself is done 3 miles north of the field, with shuttle bus bringing the jumpers back to the airfield afterwards...
gliders are closely monitored and from the first day it is made clear to all gliders NEVER EVER to head north of the field....monitoring of the gliders is done by somebody appointed as 'gliding supervisor' and he is in constant radiocontact on the gliding frequency....if someone goes too close to the pj-site he/she is warned on the radio....
that's how we do it, and have been accident-free for the last 25 years..........
I was taking off from one particular aerodrome having made all the appropriate RT calls - the next thing I knew was parachutists landing just off the runway on the grass.....
At the same aerodrome there was an Eastern European operated twin which was used by parachutists. One snag - the pilot did not understand English....or, if he did, no-one could understand him!
On another occasion I actually heard the 'jumpmaster' announcing that parachutists were in the air - and telling a light ac to keep away or he would be 'reported'. The light ac replied that he was inbound to the field, would the jumpmaster please let him know when all jumpers were down. To which the unhelpful reply "This is an active parachuting site" was given....
At the same aerodrome there was an Eastern European operated twin which was used by parachutists. One snag - the pilot did not understand English....or, if he did, no-one could understand him!
On another occasion I actually heard the 'jumpmaster' announcing that parachutists were in the air - and telling a light ac to keep away or he would be 'reported'. The light ac replied that he was inbound to the field, would the jumpmaster please let him know when all jumpers were down. To which the unhelpful reply "This is an active parachuting site" was given....
Not so N, but still FG
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BEagle, might that be a certain aerodrome in Kent with an association with a stripy kind of feline?
What a horrible accident. Ten years ago or so someone I vaguely knew through work died horribly parachuting into a hovering helicopter, but I've heard of no other such incidents, thankfully.
What a horrible accident. Ten years ago or so someone I vaguely knew through work died horribly parachuting into a hovering helicopter, but I've heard of no other such incidents, thankfully.
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B Eagle
I am sure I know the field that you mean in LIncolnshire/ Cambs. I would agree with you that there are complete tossers who run the buisness. However blaming the pilots of the Let is not correct as at least one of the pilots has acceptable english as a pre requisite of flying for the company. _ Unless the company is breaking the contract.
However if peoplpe also checked there pooleys and all other publications they would see that there is approach proceedures for the field. Yes I agree that there are idiots who jump. This is a minority however I have also seen pilots fly through the drop zone again not many.
I am sure I know the field that you mean in LIncolnshire/ Cambs. I would agree with you that there are complete tossers who run the buisness. However blaming the pilots of the Let is not correct as at least one of the pilots has acceptable english as a pre requisite of flying for the company. _ Unless the company is breaking the contract.
However if peoplpe also checked there pooleys and all other publications they would see that there is approach proceedures for the field. Yes I agree that there are idiots who jump. This is a minority however I have also seen pilots fly through the drop zone again not many.
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Very sad, my condolences to the bereaved.
To add to the discussion:- I fly from Hinton and Weston on the green. i don`t like the parachutists operating at hinton but have to put up with it. You NEVER fly overhead at Hinton and just keep away till all are on the ground, including the jump aircraft. That`s the theory anyway. At Weston the Gliding operation is subservient to the Parachuting and we are briefed very carefully about where we may, or may not go. Basically, all gliding is downwind of the airfield within the published danger area. If you are intending landing at Weston, you must be in radio contact with the Oxford gliding Club on 130.1 or with Weston DZ, Can`t remember their frequency.
There were two gliders in the Weston DA on Saturday afternoon. Two aircraft were dropping from 12,500 feet at the time. I don`t think the Pilots had seen the gliders until they were pointed out to them by Brize Radar. They may be hearing from the CAA. It depends on whether or not they could make out the registrations through the very powerful, tripod mounted binoculars they have at the DZ.
The last case of infringement I can remember being reported at Oxford Crown Court resulted in a fine of £4000. I cant remember if he kept his Licence. That was Power by the way. Using GPS rather than maps to navigate. Straight line to Oxford Kidlington went overhead Weston.
Mike W
To add to the discussion:- I fly from Hinton and Weston on the green. i don`t like the parachutists operating at hinton but have to put up with it. You NEVER fly overhead at Hinton and just keep away till all are on the ground, including the jump aircraft. That`s the theory anyway. At Weston the Gliding operation is subservient to the Parachuting and we are briefed very carefully about where we may, or may not go. Basically, all gliding is downwind of the airfield within the published danger area. If you are intending landing at Weston, you must be in radio contact with the Oxford gliding Club on 130.1 or with Weston DZ, Can`t remember their frequency.
There were two gliders in the Weston DA on Saturday afternoon. Two aircraft were dropping from 12,500 feet at the time. I don`t think the Pilots had seen the gliders until they were pointed out to them by Brize Radar. They may be hearing from the CAA. It depends on whether or not they could make out the registrations through the very powerful, tripod mounted binoculars they have at the DZ.
The last case of infringement I can remember being reported at Oxford Crown Court resulted in a fine of £4000. I cant remember if he kept his Licence. That was Power by the way. Using GPS rather than maps to navigate. Straight line to Oxford Kidlington went overhead Weston.
Mike W
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As to andrewc's question, I've done a quick calculation, and based on a static line jump from 10,000ft, the parachutist will be in the air for 6.6 minutes. A 10 knot wind will blow them 1.1nm downwind in this time.
If we assume that parachutists don't jump if the wind is much greater than 30-40 knots at height, leaving a lateral distance of 5nm should give a margin of safety under most conditions.
I'm assuming that above 10,000ft, sky-divers will be free falling, so falling at much greater speeds, and will be blown off course much less; so I'd guess 5nm would be good for most situations.
Anyone got any better information?
If we assume that parachutists don't jump if the wind is much greater than 30-40 knots at height, leaving a lateral distance of 5nm should give a margin of safety under most conditions.
I'm assuming that above 10,000ft, sky-divers will be free falling, so falling at much greater speeds, and will be blown off course much less; so I'd guess 5nm would be good for most situations.
Anyone got any better information?
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I've never read such un-informed bollox in my life.........In addition to all the useless drivel about the L39 accident in another thread. Are there any real pilots among you?
Beagle, I always thought your posts were quite well written and informed.....maybe I was wrong.
At last, an incentive to stop reading this BB.......
Beagle, I always thought your posts were quite well written and informed.....maybe I was wrong.
At last, an incentive to stop reading this BB.......
Goodbye, Zlin526...
I am somewhat at a loss regarding your post. Yes - I commented that a certain aerodrome I have enountered mixed light ac, gliding and parachuting on the same aerodrome simultaneously, but without any positive control over each activity. Hence activities were something of a free-for-all; this was hardly the safest way to run recreational aviation, in my personal view.
If you find something unacceptable about that, then pray tell...
I am somewhat at a loss regarding your post. Yes - I commented that a certain aerodrome I have enountered mixed light ac, gliding and parachuting on the same aerodrome simultaneously, but without any positive control over each activity. Hence activities were something of a free-for-all; this was hardly the safest way to run recreational aviation, in my personal view.
If you find something unacceptable about that, then pray tell...
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Zlin526
It would be more impressive if you raised a single fact,
argument or even stated what you objected too about
the previous thread contents...obviously by your definition
you think you must be a real pilot but the impression
you've left behind does you little credit.
-- Andrew
It would be more impressive if you raised a single fact,
argument or even stated what you objected too about
the previous thread contents...obviously by your definition
you think you must be a real pilot but the impression
you've left behind does you little credit.
-- Andrew
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ZLIN 526,
pls give us the definition of a "real pilot" and we'll let you know if we are or not....
but.....checking on the history of your postings I doubt it if you could tell us what a real pilot is.......for you are definitely not one...
( ps : as for myself, I know who I am and what I am, and therefor will never ever say I'm a real pilot....)
Matter closed now.
pls give us the definition of a "real pilot" and we'll let you know if we are or not....
but.....checking on the history of your postings I doubt it if you could tell us what a real pilot is.......for you are definitely not one...
( ps : as for myself, I know who I am and what I am, and therefor will never ever say I'm a real pilot....)
Matter closed now.
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As someone who works and flies at a grass airfield on which powered flying and parachuting takes place, situated on the borders of Cambs, Leics, Lincs and Northants, may I respectfully add the following (by the way, we call it Sibson - why does no-one have the courage to name places round here?):
Here the powered flying and parachuting have used the airfield together for over 30 years - we get on well and even share the bar! A number of the skydivers have learnt to fly with us and some of us have even been known to have a go at parachuting... These people are not the enemy, they just use the air in a different way to us - it would be a boring world if we all did the same thing!
The Drop Zone is over half a mile to the NW of the runways and we have no overhead join or deadside with all the circuits to the S or E. The Peterborough Parachute Centre is extremely safety concious and very strictly run.
The parachute centre's Let 410 is crewed by Ukranians who speak and understand English. It drops up to 16 skydivers from 13,000 ft. Solo skydivers can fall at up to 200mph and pull at about 2500ft, tandems pull higher at about 5000ft. They can operate as long as they are in sight of the surface and with surface wind speeds of up to 20kts. If the spot is accurate then they may exit the aircraft a couple of miles up wind. Skydivers can be a miute in freefall and up to five minutes under canopy.
Students (static line) drop from 3500ft and also use steerable square canopies these days. A Cessna 206 is used for this and occasionally high lifts as well.
We frequently have aircraft (powered and gliders) overflying the DZ/airfield at a height which puts them in the ATZ (and Wittering's ATZ just up the road). On Saturday there were 4 or 5 aircraft that flew through the overhead - I saw a Robin DR400 fly through at about 1500ft 2 minutes after the parachutists had landed - without calling up on the Sibson A/G. (We try to keep the A/G manned as much as possible, although this isn't a legal requirement).
If our skydivers get a registration they normally try and track down the pilot and have a word in their ear about safety. Most take it in the manner it is intended and are thankful for the chat, others get stroppy and try and blame everyone else. The worst of these end up getting letters from the CAA.
The scariest calls are from students on a nav ex wanting to turn overhead - what sort of instructor tells a student to plan a cross country using an active DZ as a turning point?! Cabair from Cranfield used to be the favourites at that.
Plan your flight to go around all DZs - a couple of extra minutes on your flight time is all it will take (unless you are landing there - and we love to see visitors at Sibbo - as long as the simple joining procedures are followed, as published in the Air Pilot, AFE VFR Guide, Pooley's etc).
I apoligise for the long post but this is literally a matter of life and death. Tell your friends - spread the word, let's all enjoy the airspace in whatever form we want, be it powered, gliding or skydiving - there's plenty for everyone.
Jerry
Here the powered flying and parachuting have used the airfield together for over 30 years - we get on well and even share the bar! A number of the skydivers have learnt to fly with us and some of us have even been known to have a go at parachuting... These people are not the enemy, they just use the air in a different way to us - it would be a boring world if we all did the same thing!
The Drop Zone is over half a mile to the NW of the runways and we have no overhead join or deadside with all the circuits to the S or E. The Peterborough Parachute Centre is extremely safety concious and very strictly run.
The parachute centre's Let 410 is crewed by Ukranians who speak and understand English. It drops up to 16 skydivers from 13,000 ft. Solo skydivers can fall at up to 200mph and pull at about 2500ft, tandems pull higher at about 5000ft. They can operate as long as they are in sight of the surface and with surface wind speeds of up to 20kts. If the spot is accurate then they may exit the aircraft a couple of miles up wind. Skydivers can be a miute in freefall and up to five minutes under canopy.
Students (static line) drop from 3500ft and also use steerable square canopies these days. A Cessna 206 is used for this and occasionally high lifts as well.
We frequently have aircraft (powered and gliders) overflying the DZ/airfield at a height which puts them in the ATZ (and Wittering's ATZ just up the road). On Saturday there were 4 or 5 aircraft that flew through the overhead - I saw a Robin DR400 fly through at about 1500ft 2 minutes after the parachutists had landed - without calling up on the Sibson A/G. (We try to keep the A/G manned as much as possible, although this isn't a legal requirement).
If our skydivers get a registration they normally try and track down the pilot and have a word in their ear about safety. Most take it in the manner it is intended and are thankful for the chat, others get stroppy and try and blame everyone else. The worst of these end up getting letters from the CAA.
The scariest calls are from students on a nav ex wanting to turn overhead - what sort of instructor tells a student to plan a cross country using an active DZ as a turning point?! Cabair from Cranfield used to be the favourites at that.
Plan your flight to go around all DZs - a couple of extra minutes on your flight time is all it will take (unless you are landing there - and we love to see visitors at Sibbo - as long as the simple joining procedures are followed, as published in the Air Pilot, AFE VFR Guide, Pooley's etc).
I apoligise for the long post but this is literally a matter of life and death. Tell your friends - spread the word, let's all enjoy the airspace in whatever form we want, be it powered, gliding or skydiving - there's plenty for everyone.
Jerry