Sky Demon and I pad

[Pass your message]

Thinking of buying the iPad mini 3 to use sky demon on for in flight GPS navigation . Appreciate your views on whether to get cellular at £15 a month approx or buying the bolt on Garmin blue tooth gadget .

[BabyBear]

If you buy a cellular with internal GPS there is no need for a contract, in fact it doesn't require a sim card in it to work.

That said some will say the external GPS is more reliable, you could always buy the internal and if it doesn't work then buy an external GPS. You then have the option of contract going forward if you find the need.

BB

[ChickenHouse]

Get the cellular version. If you don't, you'll regret it.

[A and C]

On the whole the skydemon and the iPad work well together but the GPS in the iPad is only just up to the job, for reliable position data you have to get another GPS sorce.

[stevelup]

Indeed, which makes it questionable paying £100 extra for the cellular version. I'd put (just part) of the £100 differential into a decent external GPS.

Yes, it's two things to carry around and charge, but they work much better.

[S-Works]

A and C

Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 5,308
On the whole the skydemon and the iPad work well together but the GPS in the iPad is only just up to the job, for reliable position data you have to get another GPS sorce.


It's more than up to the job. I have used it for thousands of hours in everything from Cessnas to my work turboprops and have never had an issue with the GPS.

[stevelup]

I think different people have different experiences. You know how much of an Apple nut I am, so I wouldn't say this without justification.

I've definitely seen - first hand - GPS dropouts on an iPad where in the same aircraft another (non-cellular) iPad was unaffected with the external GPS.

This was a while ago though (2nd generation), so maybe they're OK now.

[worldpilot]

Get the cellular version. If you don't, you'll regret it.

Why waste extra cash on a cellular version, when you can as well connect your IPad via Bluetooth to a phone device and use the cellular connection there.

You actually don't need cellular connection on the IPad if you simply follow these recommendations:

1- Preflight your IPad at home using Internet connection before going to fly, e.g, full charge the device.

2- Download all current charts and flight information (NOTAMs, etc)

3- Connect your IPad to your external GPS device and complete all the flight planning required.

4- If in-flight charging is possible in your plane, take the necessary cables and adapter with you.

WP

[Manker]

Buy the cellular version for the inbuilt GPS - it works great and saves the hassle of other pieces of equipment that need charging. You do not need to put a SIM card in it, with related monthly cost, unless you really want mobile internet. All downloads can be done in a wifi environment before you go flying. In my humble opinion.

[BackPacker]

You need to separate the two issues here. Only problem is, Apple doesn't allow you to do so.

First, GPS. I have never experienced any outage with any Apple built-in GPS (iPad 2 and iPhone 5), unless I put the iPad in between the seats or under a seat. But if it's on the coaming, or mounted on/near the panel, or lying in the P2 seat, no problem. Both in low wing (R2160, DR400, PA28) and high wing (GA8) aircraft. But you can always get an external GPS, connect to that via BlueTooth and use that if you do experience issues.

Second, cellular data. As others said, SD will download everything it needs once you setup the route - typically at home. So that can be done over Wifi. As far as SD is concerned, there is no need for cellular data while in the air. If you do need a data connection somehow, you can either put a SIM (prepaid or subscription) in the iPad, or use your mobile phone as a Wifi access point ("hotspot"). Or use a dedicated hotspot device.

If you either need or want the internal GPS, or need or want cellular data directly on the iPad, you need to get the 3G/4G version. Simply because Apple combines the GPS chip with the cellular chip, so you can't get one without the other. But it is certainly possible to use SD with a Wifi-only iPad and an external GPS.

My advice is to get the 3G/4G variant. The GPS is used for much more than just flying/SD, and the cellular option (with a prepaid SIM card) is useful to have in a pinch.

[arelix]

........or buy a Nexus 7 (with excellent GPS) and save yourself a load of money :ok:

[stevelup]

That does everything really well except run iOS ;)

[A and C]

I have run both iPad & iPad mini and the reliability of the GPS is somewhat random, one day no problem on a North Atlantic crossing and then a few days later the thing drops of three or four times on the way to the Isle of Man.

All I can say is that Bose-x is very lucky to have such good reliability with his iPad, unfortunately my two devices have not demonstrated any thing near what he discribes in terms of reliability.

in my opinion you should take the task of position location and monitoring away from the iPad and let it do what it does best.........display data, this also seems to be the opinion of Garmin who are now marketing a Bluetooth system to put WAAS GPS data onto devices, in my opinion this is a far better way to go. For those who don't have the Garmin option Bad Elf seem to market some devices that will upgrade the iPads GPS at very reasonable price.

[Phil Histine]

I bought the Bad Elf to go with my IPad mini 3, used it a coup,e of times, and then left it in my bag because the iPad GPS seemed so reliable. But I would never buy an aviation tablet without cellular data, simply because it's invaluable to be able to get weather, notams and file flight plans when there's no wifi - not to mention downloading plates, taxi numbers and finally the guardian while I hang around.

[India Four Two]

I have a Garmin GLO external GPS, which I use to provide a signal to my iPad mini.

I initially placed it on the glareshield, but I didn't like the idea of a loose object floating around the cabin in turbulence, so now I place it in my shirt pocket. It works perfectly.

[sharpend]

I have a problem with my external GPS. If I am stationary for any length of time it goes into sleep mode. I'm going to buy a Mini with built in GPS.

Don't place the iPad close to your magnetic compress. Try it and see the hdg error.

[S-Works]

with his iPad, unfortunately my two devices have not demonstrated any thing near what he discribes in terms of reliability.

I am running three iPads and don't have a problem. I had more issues with the external GPS going flat and losing connection than I have ever seen with any if the iPads. I have had every generation of iPad and am now on an Air 2 with no issues.

The extra utility from having the 3G version with Gos outweighs the minimal extra cost and improves the functionality no end.

Think outside just using it for aviation. Mine gets used for all sorts of stuff that uses the GPS. Having to cart around a seperate GPS would just be a pain in the ass. And at the end of the day if you are as unlucky as A and C seems to be you can always uses an external one as well...... ;)

[cessnapete]

I Pad mini, non GPS version, SkyDemon, with Bad Elf GPS which slots into the Lightning connector and therefore is integral with I Pad when in use.
No signal problems in 6 months. On longer flight can be charged from USB plug in cig lighter through the Bad Elf, while still navigating.
Magic.

[150 Driver]

Confession first, I'm an iSheep so am biased.

I use an iPad with Runway HD. I have an external GPS, and use it, although always felt that the iPad GPS should probably be enough.

However, over Norfolk one day close to the Class D boundary the GPS dropped out. Started to blame the satellite as surely both systems couldn't fail ? Then found that yes, they can for different reasons. Battery discharged on the GPS and the iPad GPS dropping out.

As an aside, having the iPad and GPS rather than a panel mounted GPS does build in redundancy. If electrical power is lost you still have something electrical that works. I have experienced electrical system failure and a DI breaking on the same flight.

Back to OP, personally I'd go for a Sim iPad but not for other reasons completely unrelated to GPS or airborne purposes

[A and C]

Following the comments above about the total reliability of the Skydemon app on an iPad running on the internal GPS I decided to look in the in the log of the skydemon to check exactly what the reliability was.

In my last two flights this is what happened, midlands to Oxford area the position lost four times, Oxford area to LeTouquet position lost five times.

While I am sure that the performance of this app would be much improved by use of a dedicated GPS system ( preferably with an external antenna ) I have yet to see the cast iron reliability that some above report.

The reliability contrasts spectacularly with the King KLN89b that was fitted into one of my aircraft, this only lost the plot twice in fifteen years.

It is my belief that the week point of the skydemon/iPad combination is the GPS receiver in the iPad and not the skydemon app.

In my opinion the streaming (via Bluetooth) of GPS data from an IFR approved GPS sorce will solve all these issues and bring the skydemon reliability up to the levels reported above, Garmin now have a device to do this but just how long it will take EASA ( the condom on the prick of safety) to get around to certifying such a useful device is anybody's guess !

[ChickenHouse]

@A and C: I have to comment ;-). I used Skydemon with internal and external GPS sources for quite some time now. In the beginning (up to iOS6) I had almost no GPS dropouts whatsoever, independent of external or internal GPS. Starting with iOS7 and much more prominent in iOS8, there are a lot more dropouts in the Skydemon tracks, BUT this is not related to the GPS source - as neither BadElf nor Garmin GLO nor GNS2000 nor connection to certified GPS via AIRconnect show a different result. These outages appear to occur from the way multitasking was implemented in iOS and they are in other navigational apps like ANP as well. With an app disabling the multitasking there are no dropouts, still.

[ShyTorque]

In my last two flights this is what happened, midlands to Oxford area the position lost four times, Oxford area to LeTouquet position lost five times.

A&C, which aircraft are you flying? Does it have a high wing? I'm wondering if you might have suffered from GPS receiver masking from the wing above.

[Cusco]

My problem in the summer ,using SD on an iPad with integral GPS was complete shutdown due to overheating on four occasions.

This has made me reluctant to bank on SD/iPad combo anymore and I have other GPS running now.

The overheating is sorted easily by shoving iPad by footwell fresh air vent but doesn't instil confidence

Cusco

[ChickenHouse]

If your iPad overheats in summer, you should make sure two things - first, get it out of direct sunlight (advantage highwings) and second, switch OFF cellular data, as the constant scanning for mobile connection towers draws a lot of heat.

[A and C]

First flight C152, second flight PA28..............not much better in a DR400 or SR20 but I don't have the data for those aircraft.

[ShyTorque]

A&C, Probably not wing masking then!

[A and C]

I don't think it is a wing masking issue, some above have indicated that it might be an issue with the iPad multi tasking.

I think the next move is to shut the iPad down before I use the skydemon and only open the skydemon app.

The other thing I need to look as is the skydemon reliability compared to the Jepp FD, I will run one on the iPad and the other on the iPad mini, if it is a GPS signal issue they shoud both have the same problems.

[chalmondleigh]

I bought my 3G iPad2 and installed SkyDemon on it a couple of months before flying my new Cabri G2 helicopter back to the UK from the factory at Aix les Milles. Approx 600 nm with no position drops during the journey.

Previously I have used the Skymap IIIC which was generally reliable but did on one occasion near Reims indicate that I was flying to the left of an Autoroute when I was in fact on the right.

On two occasions, out and return, in Belgium I did pass through a GPS dead spot where both the Skymap and Garmin GNC 250 dropped out. Both came back online a few minutes later.

Helicopters do have a very good view of the sky which may contribute to GPS performance.

On the odd occasion where I needed a little assistance I have found SkyDemon support very helpful.

It works for me.

[thing]

I've tried both iPad and iPad mini with a GNS 2000. I have had drop outs on several occassions, I fly a mixture of high and low wing aircraft. The worst problem to me though was getting the GNS and iPad to talk to each other in the first place. Other people at the club I fly from have had the same problem. It could take ten minutes or so sometimes using various switching on procedures to get the thing linked up. It's not a problem with Skydemon or the 2000, it seems to be an iPad thing.

I then about a year ago just for the sake of it tried my iPhone 5 suckered to the perspex so that in line of sight it's just to the left of the left most instrument on the panel. It works a treat. I've never had any problems with it at all. It's convenient, doesn't hang on the yoke with builders scaffolding and I just unclip it and shove it in my pocket at the end of the flight. I know it's a smaller screen but once the newness of faffing around with SD on the iPad wears off you find out that 99% of the time you just need it for the magenta line. It's plenty big enough to read the geo ref plates that come with the Pooleys subscription for when you are taxiing around at an unfamiliar airfield. I haven't used anything else since. You can of course charge it in flight as well for the longer trips.

[BackPacker]

Previously I have used the Skymap IIIC which was generally reliable but did on one occasion near Reims indicate that I was flying to the left of an Autoroute when I was in fact on the right.

You will find this with any solution that uses vector-generated maps, including SkyDemon. There is simply no room on your device to store the exact lay of every major and minor road, to the nearest cm. If you're lucky they'll store major roads, and build it up based on position fixes every km or so. Inbetween these position fixes the map will be off, and that may well mean that the device indicates you're flying on the left, while you are really flying on the right of the road.

[Bobby Hart]

Working for SkyDemon, I see the split of guys who use "Wifi-only iPad + Bluetooth GPS" and "Cellular iPad + internal GPS" as being roughly equal.

Having a data SIM installed is not essential for the internal GPS to work, but you might find it nice to have if you need to get a quick briefing but are away from a wifi hotspot. Also, when you are in the air you will notice that SkyDemon can occasionally pick-up updated METARS and similar small data items when it gets a sniff of 3G coverage.

[ChickenHouse]

The issue with SIM vs no-Sim in a cellular iPad is not only about connectivity. An installed SIM allows the GPS to launch the assisted, A, Part of the A-GPS and gives a much quicker first fix. This is even more pronounced when dropouts appear - if there is a SIM installed and you are in an area with mobile coverage, the position recovery is much quicker. Many times I only see the dropouts on my iPad cell only in retrospective, because recovery was so fast I did not noticed them in flight (BTW: this is another point towards internal GPS, as I think the external GPS boxes are non-A-GPS).

[horizon flyer]

One advantage of an external are the dual units, that receive both the US & Russian GPS signals. Maybe in the future we will see an all system unit for the 5 GPS systems. I think the latest Ipads use the Russian Glasnoss system as Nokia's do, does anyone know. Actualy more accurate at high northern latitudes than US Navstar.

[dirkdj]

I use a Nexus7 with internal GPS and now a GNS2000 Bluetooth external GPS. The precision and reliability of signal is like day and night. GNS2000 is WAAS and GLONASS as well as US GPS so more satellites are available at any time. I think the GNS2000 was about 73€. It is smaller than a calling card and fits easily in a shirt pocket.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

It's more than up to the job. I have used it for thousands of hours in everything from Cessnas to my work turboprops and have never had an issue with the GPS.

I've been using SkyDemon on both iPad Mini and iPhone5 and no problems whatsoever to date.