Sky Demon and I pad

[Pass your message]

Thinking of buying the iPad mini 3 to use sky demon on for in flight GPS navigation . Appreciate your views on whether to get cellular at £15 a month approx or buying the bolt on Garmin blue tooth gadget .

[BabyBear]

If you buy a cellular with internal GPS there is no need for a contract, in fact it doesn't require a sim card in it to work.

That said some will say the external GPS is more reliable, you could always buy the internal and if it doesn't work then buy an external GPS. You then have the option of contract going forward if you find the need.

BB

[ChickenHouse]

Get the cellular version. If you don't, you'll regret it.

[A and C]

On the whole the skydemon and the iPad work well together but the GPS in the iPad is only just up to the job, for reliable position data you have to get another GPS sorce.

[stevelup]

Indeed, which makes it questionable paying £100 extra for the cellular version. I'd put (just part) of the £100 differential into a decent external GPS.

Yes, it's two things to carry around and charge, but they work much better.

[S-Works]

A and C

Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 5,308
On the whole the skydemon and the iPad work well together but the GPS in the iPad is only just up to the job, for reliable position data you have to get another GPS sorce.

It's more than up to the job. I have used it for thousands of hours in everything from Cessnas to my work turboprops and have never had an issue with the GPS.

[stevelup]

I think different people have different experiences. You know how much of an Apple nut I am, so I wouldn't say this without justification.

I've definitely seen - first hand - GPS dropouts on an iPad where in the same aircraft another (non-cellular) iPad was unaffected with the external GPS.

This was a while ago though (2nd generation), so maybe they're OK now.

[worldpilot]

Get the cellular version. If you don't, you'll regret it.

Why waste extra cash on a cellular version, when you can as well connect your IPad via Bluetooth to a phone device and use the cellular connection there.

You actually don't need cellular connection on the IPad if you simply follow these recommendations:

1- Preflight your IPad at home using Internet connection before going to fly, e.g, full charge the device.

2- Download all current charts and flight information (NOTAMs, etc)

3- Connect your IPad to your external GPS device and complete all the flight planning required.

4- If in-flight charging is possible in your plane, take the necessary cables and adapter with you.

WP

[Manker]

Buy the cellular version for the inbuilt GPS - it works great and saves the hassle of other pieces of equipment that need charging. You do not need to put a SIM card in it, with related monthly cost, unless you really want mobile internet. All downloads can be done in a wifi environment before you go flying. In my humble opinion.

[BackPacker]

You need to separate the two issues here. Only problem is, Apple doesn't allow you to do so.

First, GPS. I have never experienced any outage with any Apple built-in GPS (iPad 2 and iPhone 5), unless I put the iPad in between the seats or under a seat. But if it's on the coaming, or mounted on/near the panel, or lying in the P2 seat, no problem. Both in low wing (R2160, DR400, PA28) and high wing (GA8) aircraft. But you can always get an external GPS, connect to that via BlueTooth and use that if you do experience issues.

Second, cellular data. As others said, SD will download everything it needs once you setup the route - typically at home. So that can be done over Wifi. As far as SD is concerned, there is no need for cellular data while in the air. If you do need a data connection somehow, you can either put a SIM (prepaid or subscription) in the iPad, or use your mobile phone as a Wifi access point ("hotspot"). Or use a dedicated hotspot device.

If you either need or want the internal GPS, or need or want cellular data directly on the iPad, you need to get the 3G/4G version. Simply because Apple combines the GPS chip with the cellular chip, so you can't get one without the other. But it is certainly possible to use SD with a Wifi-only iPad and an external GPS.

My advice is to get the 3G/4G variant. The GPS is used for much more than just flying/SD, and the cellular option (with a prepaid SIM card) is useful to have in a pinch.

[arelix]

........or buy a Nexus 7 (with excellent GPS) and save yourself a load of money

[stevelup]

That does everything really well except run iOS

[A and C]

Bose-x

I have run both iPad & iPad mini and the reliability of the GPS is somewhat random, one day no problem on a North Atlantic crossing and then a few days later the thing drops of three or four times on the way to the Isle of Man.

All I can say is that Bose-x is very lucky to have such good reliability with his iPad, unfortunately my two devices have not demonstrated any thing near what he discribes in terms of reliability.

in my opinion you should take the task of position location and monitoring away from the iPad and let it do what it does best.........display data, this also seems to be the opinion of Garmin who are now marketing a Bluetooth system to put WAAS GPS data onto devices, in my opinion this is a far better way to go. For those who don't have the Garmin option Bad Elf seem to market some devices that will upgrade the iPads GPS at very reasonable price.

[Phil Histine]

I bought the Bad Elf to go with my IPad mini 3, used it a coup,e of times, and then left it in my bag because the iPad GPS seemed so reliable. But I would never buy an aviation tablet without cellular data, simply because it's invaluable to be able to get weather, notams and file flight plans when there's no wifi - not to mention downloading plates, taxi numbers and finally the guardian while I hang around.

[India Four Two]

I have a Garmin GLO external GPS, which I use to provide a signal to my iPad mini.

I initially placed it on the glareshield, but I didn't like the idea of a loose object floating around the cabin in turbulence, so now I place it in my shirt pocket. It works perfectly.

[sharpend]

I have a problem with my external GPS. If I am stationary for any length of time it goes into sleep mode. I'm going to buy a Mini with built in GPS.

Don't place the iPad close to your magnetic compress. Try it and see the hdg error.

[S-Works]

with his iPad, unfortunately my two devices have not demonstrated any thing near what he discribes in terms of reliability.

I am running three iPads and don't have a problem. I had more issues with the external GPS going flat and losing connection than I have ever seen with any if the iPads. I have had every generation of iPad and am now on an Air 2 with no issues.

The extra utility from having the 3G version with Gos outweighs the minimal extra cost and improves the functionality no end.

Think outside just using it for aviation. Mine gets used for all sorts of stuff that uses the GPS. Having to cart around a seperate GPS would just be a pain in the ass. And at the end of the day if you are as unlucky as A and C seems to be you can always uses an external one as well......

[cessnapete]

I Pad mini, non GPS version, SkyDemon, with Bad Elf GPS which slots into the Lightning connector and therefore is integral with I Pad when in use.
No signal problems in 6 months. On longer flight can be charged from USB plug in cig lighter through the Bad Elf, while still navigating.
Magic.

[150 Driver]

Confession first, I'm an iSheep so am biased.

I use an iPad with Runway HD. I have an external GPS, and use it, although always felt that the iPad GPS should probably be enough.

However, over Norfolk one day close to the Class D boundary the GPS dropped out. Started to blame the satellite as surely both systems couldn't fail ? Then found that yes, they can for different reasons. Battery discharged on the GPS and the iPad GPS dropping out.

As an aside, having the iPad and GPS rather than a panel mounted GPS does build in redundancy. If electrical power is lost you still have something electrical that works. I have experienced electrical system failure and a DI breaking on the same flight.

Back to OP, personally I'd go for a Sim iPad but not for other reasons completely unrelated to GPS or airborne purposes

[A and C]

The real data

Following the comments above about the total reliability of the Skydemon app on an iPad running on the internal GPS I decided to look in the in the log of the skydemon to check exactly what the reliability was.

In my last two flights this is what happened, midlands to Oxford area the position lost four times, Oxford area to LeTouquet position lost five times.

While I am sure that the performance of this app would be much improved by use of a dedicated GPS system ( preferably with an external antenna ) I have yet to see the cast iron reliability that some above report.

The reliability contrasts spectacularly with the King KLN89b that was fitted into one of my aircraft, this only lost the plot twice in fifteen years.

It is my belief that the week point of the skydemon/iPad combination is the GPS receiver in the iPad and not the skydemon app.

In my opinion the streaming (via Bluetooth) of GPS data from an IFR approved GPS sorce will solve all these issues and bring the skydemon reliability up to the levels reported above, Garmin now have a device to do this but just how long it will take EASA ( the condom on the prick of safety) to get around to certifying such a useful device is anybody's guess !