NDB DME Approach Procedure

[bucks_raj]

As absurd as it sounds ... Its a fact

https://www.flickr.com/photos/14887399@N05/15532556846/


The approach is based on an NDB and a DME arc!!


Any one have any other examples for such an approach

[FlyingStone]

1. This is not an NDB/DME approach.

2. Is there any difference if DME arc takes you to ILS or NDB approach? Many airports in the world have same layout for all types of approaches for the same runway (FAF = FAP).

[deefer dog]

The OP did not state that it was an NDB/DME approach!

He pointed out that it was based on an NDB and a DME arc. This is pretty indisputable.

At a quick glance I would guess that it is a VOR NDB DME approach as all three of those are required ground aids.

[Agent86]

There are quite a number of NDB/DME Approaches in Australia. Flown this one a number of times. What with coastal effect, night effect, a big CB parked 5 miles away and a 20 kt crosswind it was always fun.
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/dap/BRMNB01-139.pdf

GPS approaches make it all seem easy now.

[BOAC]

The approach is based on an NDB and a DME arc!! - I'd go with that. What an amazing approach for a busy international airport - a 'glancing blow' off the VOR and the far end NDB, but don't miss the 'International Museum of Toilets' in town. Says it all!:)

One would (hope) there is something better for the main runways. Luckily I have not come across any similar............

[Amadis of Gaul]

I'd declare an emergency.

[Background Noise]

The OP did not state that it was an NDB/DME approach!

..apart from the title 'NDB DME Approach Procedure'?

[RetiredF4]

What is difficult anout that approach?

[Capn Bloggs]

That does look odd, and would be a bit tricky if you didnt have the VOR working to help you track the arc.

Agent 86, your approach is different (and easier); the NDB and the DME are (vitrually) in the same spot, so orientation would be much easier than the Flickr approach.

At a quick glance I would guess that it is a VOR NDB DME approach as all three of those are required ground aids.
Doesn't say VOR is required although obviously, for the arrival at least, you'd need it...

[galaxy flyer]

There was an approach to Wallops Island where the final leg was a DME arc with the FAF and MAP being radials on the arc.

[clivewatson]

[QUOTE][/That does look odd, and would be a bit tricky if you didnt have the VOR working to help you track the arc.QUOTE]

Forgive me, but if it is a VOR NDB DME approach one would not be allowed to shoot it without the VOR!

[Capn Bloggs]

Forgive me, but if it is a VOR NDB DME approach

It's not a VOR NDB DME approach. The thread title is NDB DME, and it doesn't say anywhere on the chart that VOR is required. It does say that for the DME. Pity the graphic doesn't show the chart title. That would solve it once and for all.

It's pretty logical that it wouldn't "require" the VOR, otherwise there would be no need for the convoluted use of the NDB.

There was an approach to Wallops Island where the final leg was a DME arc with the FAF and MAP being radials on the arc.
Sounds fun. 5 DME arc? "Stable Capn...apart for the minor heading changes to stay lined up on final!".

[galaxy flyer]

Bloggs,

I just looked, the VOR/DME RWY 10 at KWAL Wallops Island, VA is still published. Pity I can't, actually don't know how, to post it. The final course is the 24.1 DME arc with a IAF at the 218R, the FAF at the 201R and MAP at the 189R. The miss is a left turn it intercept the arc back to MAGGO, the IAF. It's all off the SBY VOR.

[Capn Bloggs]

24.1 DME arc not so bad! :)

http://s26.postimg.org/b6n100amh/Wallops.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

That's a pretty interesting approach because the normal arc tracking tolerances would be way too big there. Say you were .5nm off, there's no way you'd get in from the MDA on the straight-in.

[OK465]

24.1 DME arc not so bad!

A little thread drift, but it might interest GF and possibly Bloggs, that in the early 70s, Toledo Express Airport, like Wallops, had a TACAN arc as the final segment for RWY 25 that the Guard F-100s used routinely.

I believe it was a 10 or so DME arc :eek:, don't remember the minima. Flew it once coming over from Columbus.

The chart is long gone. It was cancelled after the Toledo Guard crashed one on the approach.

If you look at Hutchinson, KS, there are VOR, ILS and LOC approaches with DME arcs to final, but the NDB is a simple PT, no other requirement than ADF capability. End of an era. If you're flying NDB over here these days it's probably only because you can't afford much else for your puddle-jumper. :}

edit: BTW at the time the TOL Tacan wasn't at the field or the approach was off of Waterville.

[hikoushi]

There are a few in Micronesia. There is an NDB/DME - A to Kosrae (TTK) Airport. Has a DME facility colocated with an NDB, no VOR to be found. NDB final approach guidance with DME identified fixes, and an arc transition (you just use your RMI with the ADF needle displayed and track the arc distance off the DME the same way you would use an RMI during a VOR/DME arc. Easy money). Will upload a picture of the chart later.

[Gryphon]

EGBB NDB/DME RWY 33/15.... If ILS U/S

[aterpster]

Jeppesen breaks it down into two charts:

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/aterpster/VIDPJepp16-1_zps4be0bf70.jpg

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/aterpster/VIDPJepp16-1A_zps912bdfef.jpg

[Capn Bloggs]

Original:

http://s26.postimg.org/c19km1ih5/NDBDME.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

[OK465]

Yes, I can see pulling that chart out at night in the wx for the in-range check and approach brief and having no confusion potential at all. :}

(BTW single-seat Cat E dive-and-drive on a DME arc final segment is truly a Darwinian instrument flight experience.)

[BOAC]

Interesting - no mention of CTL on the Jepp and quite different procedure altitudes. Anyone know what "LR-101" is on the Indi chart?

[Capn Bloggs]

quite different procedure altitudes
They're same = 2250.

[BOAC]

Well - never come across 'LR' before in all my years. My point about proc alts was that it is extremely difficult to know when to descend to 2250 on the 'native' chart ie is it when established from the arc or when passing the 101??
Like OK I would not like to try and brief from that chart - and I think I'd hold 2600 until established.

[galaxy flyer]

BOAC

Lead radials are fairly common here, esp at military fields.

OK465

What's missing in the DEL chart is about 20 planes with 20 different languages and a very busy controller all at high volume trying to get clearances for that mess.

WRT TOL, doing a 10 DME arc in a C-model must have been fun, at least it was over in hurry. Darwinian, indeed.

[aterpster]

g.f.:

WRT TOL, doing a 10 DME arc in a C-model must have been fun, at least it was over in hurry. Darwinian, indeed.

180 KIAS?

Had to be the later C with the VOR/ILS/TACAN. The early version only had an ADF ("birddog" in USAF-speak)

I don't think there was an auto-pilot until the D model (?)

[galaxy flyer]

aterpster,

I only flew Ds and in the ANG we had ILS, but the Cs did get upgraded at some point. Yes, 180-ish, maybe 185. If the D had an autopilot it was hidden from me.

Did you fly the Hun?

[OK465]

Actually in the early 70s I believe neither the C or D had ILS, only TACAN & ADF, ADF of course used primarily for music.

In fact IIRC the Fs at TUS were upgraded with ILS first....you could do an ILS on your instrument check before going back to your TACAN/ADF only single-seater. Ds ILS came later, not sure about the Cs, although Niagara & Des Moines had Cs for a long time.

The only thing I remember in the C/D/F was a yaw damper, don't recall an auto-pilot, but it's been a looonnnggg time ago. :)

edit: BTW they put the ILS in the Guard C(?), D & Fs because most of the ANG units were at civvy airfields with ILS.

[BOAC]

Lead radials are fairly common here - yes, I'm quite happy with them it is just I have never seen 'LR' on a chart - maybe I'm too sheltered, Mil, Aerad and Jepps:)

[aterpster]

g.f.:

No. I was USAF enlisted right out of high school when there still was a draft.

I was trained as a radar gun sight tech on the F-86F, then the same equipment went into the F-100. The last year I was on active I got transferred to the F-100C simulator (the early version). I had my private ticket by that time so the OIC let me fly it every morning to "preflight" it. We also had a couple of C-11 trainers with all the nav gear the later C had. I few those a lot too. Really helped with the instrument rating a couple of years later after I got out and went to college.

[Capn Bloggs]

just I have never seen 'LR' on a chart - maybe I'm too sheltered, Mil, Aerad and Jepps
Sheltered indeed! Been on our AIP charts for a couple of decades here.

Even more shocking... there's an "LB" on that chart Agent 86 linked to in post 4! :}

Then again, we've had Distance/Altitude profiles on our charts for about the same time, with the rest of you only now catching up. :E

[BOAC]

Again Captain B, another notation I have not seen on charts in my sheltered life. I've only been aware of the Jepp style info. Out of interest, which AIP are you referring to? PM if you wish.

[Capn Bloggs]

Out of interest, which AIP are you referring to? PM if you wish.
See post 4. Jepp charts here have the lead bearing/radial depicted but not the letters "LB" or "LR".

[BOAC]

Out of interest, which AIP are you referring to? PM if you wish. Been on our AIP charts for a couple of decades here ++ padding

[turbine100]

lydd airport, EGMD in UK has dme arc for the NDB and ILS. Also offset. Quite interesting with the power station and the VOR close by, is not used by the airport.

[mad_jock]

BOAC the UK AIP has lead radials in its native charts as well.

They call them though Aerodrome Influencing of traffic patterns for a procedural aerodrome or of landmark value.

[BOAC]

I'm afraid I did not undertsand your second paragraph, but in (1) you are saying that the UK AIP annotates the letters "LR" on the charts, I understand?

[mad_jock]

No it gives the radial and a slash across the dme arc just like the others with the radial.

It just has the long winded rubbish that I gave, to describe what it is in the chart symbol key.

ie the point at which you can then turn for the intercept.

I have heard it been called numerous things over the years.

release point, lead radial, intercept point, lead bearing... but the UK AIP has definitely come up with the most unintelligible description by a long shot.

[Capn Bloggs]

The Lead Bearings are the QDMs on this chart:

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-0350E825EFDCDCE3552027740D306FAC/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/AD/AIRAC/EG_AD_2_EGMD_8-2_en_2013-06-27.pdf

[mad_jock]

They are the same on them all now as the EU plates have been all standardised in the AIP's and centrally kept.

You just get that perpendicular tick across the arc.

[aterpster]

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/aterpster/LYDDILSDMERwy21_zps79132e48.jpg