Orthodox Jews create chaos on El Al flight before leaving New York

[JohnnyRocket]

Flight delayed for hours because of demand to segregate men and women

Orthodox Jews create chaos on El Al flight before leaving New York as they demanded men and women sit seperately for the 11-hour flight to Israel in order to satisfy religious laws | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2770415/Orthodox-Jews-create-chaos-El-Al-flight-leaving-New-York-demanded-men-women-sit-seperately-11-hour-flight-Israel-order-satisfy-religious-laws.html)

Aren't there always Orthodox Jews flying this route? Why was it so much worse this time? Was it because so many were flying back for the High Holidays?

[crewmeal]

Nothing changes. They caused chaos when I was flying back in the 70's.

[Capot]

I was on a flight with Tunisair, from Tunis to London, in the days when there was a large and totally tolerated Jewish community in Tunisia.

In the row behind me, 3 orthodox Jews from this community spent the whole flight loudly chanting and nodding their heads back and forth.

This in-your-face behaviour raised some wry eyebrows among the many Muslims on the flight; my Muslim neighbour just remarked "Ah well, it's what they do."

After about half an hour of it, I turned and asked them to be quieter. I was the only person to protest in any way. They did not pause, and merely turned up the volume. My neighbour murmured "I could have told you that would happen; best leave it".

To be clear, I would have felt and done the same with anyone behaving like that, whether Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, Cargo Cult, Hindus, Mormons or worshippers of any other Gods. The loud chanting was the problem, not their race or religion. But orthodox Jews do seem to be particularly uncaring about behaving outrageously in the name of whatever God they adhere to.

[Private jet]

Golders Green, NW London.
If a gap is too small to park their car in they park at an angle with part of the car sticking out obstructing the traffic. If they can't find a gap at all they just double park in the road. I've seen this multiple occasions, they don't care.

[ATNotts]

Capot

In the row behind me, 3 orthodox Jews from this community spent the whole flight loudly chanting and nodding their heads back and forth.


If similar such (fundamentalist) behavior was demonstrated by orthodox muslims, the flight would be diverted, with full military escort to the nearest airfield and the offenders taken in by the anti terrorist police for interrogation.

Why Jews get away with I simply don't understand. (Well I do, but I'll leave that to the imagination).

[DaveReidUK]

For El Al, it's just an additional cost of doing business in their market ...

[SpringHeeledJack]

Why some enterprising aviation entrepreneur hasn't started a small airline to service the regular (?) travel needs of the very chosen ones is a mystery. The habits, beliefs and expectations of this group don't fit in with 2014, so these events will continue to occur. If even EL AL are stumped with their demands, then a specialist operator could make a killing (no pun intended).

[mikkie4]

Before EL-AL moved from STANSTED to LUTON,(best thing they ever did)they turned a small part of the terminal into the wailing wall . For security reasons they had their own checkin area,own armed seurity staff(landside),flight went from the furthest gate(sat1) after MIDNIGHT/LAST FLIGHT...
the road outside of the terminal was closed of by the police, ALL IN ALL THEY WERE A PAIN IN THE B@M Was glad to see the leave

[onetrack]

This group represents nothing more than the Pharisees of the Bible that Jesus roundly condemned for their outrageous, selfish, arrogant, petty laws behaviour, that angered him greatly.

Jesus and the Pharisees (http://www.lastdays.org.uk/jesus-and-the-pharisees.html)

These people represent nothing more than ignorance, selfishness, a love of petty religious laws and regulations, and regular demands for specialised treatment, based on their own selfish perception of their superior position in the scheme of things.

Any other group that disrupted a flight in this manner would be left standing on the tarmac faster than you could say "Jack Robinson".
Why their disruptive, selfish, arrogant, and abusive behaviour is constantly tolerated, speaks volumes for the imbeciles who let them constantly get away with it.

[parabellum]

Israel recently announced that they were going to start calling these characters up for National Service in the military. Didn't go down too well! Not sure if it passed into law or not. Orthodox Jews are not at all popular with the rest of the Jewish community.

[ExXB]

Why some enterprising aviation entrepreneur hasn't started a small airline to service the regular (?) travel needs of the very chosen ones is a mystery. The habits, beliefs and expectations of this group don't fit in with 2014, so these events will continue to occur. If even EL AL are stumped with their demands, then a specialist operator could make a killing (no pun intended). SHJ


Hey, great idea. And if the flew Fri/Sat they would fill the holes in LY's schedules.

[joy ride]

I am endlessly amazed that people with strong religious convictions expect the modern world to revolve around their "rules", but where exactly in their religion does it grant them the liberty to use aeroplanes, cars, trains, radios, TV, Computers etc.?!

[Businesstraveller]

From speaking with colleagues who travel to Tel Aviv, this sounds like the fun and games they have to put up with. Evidently many such passengers flatly refuse to heed or act upon clear directions from female crew - this occurs on the Easyjet flights as well.
The non-orthodox Israeli nationals evidently act perfectly reasonably.

[Stanwell]

An Israeli friend of mine once described them as "Barnacles on the @rse of our society".

[farci]

Here's another example I saw recently
'Women, walk wherever you want' posters taken down in Stamford Hill following 'unacceptable' signs separating men and women - Home News - UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-walk-wherever-you-want-posters-taken-down-in-stamford-hill-following-unacceptable-signs-separating-men-and-women-9752728.html)

[RVF750]

Please remember these people are not Orthodox Jews. I'm an Orthodox Jew. You get orthodox and Liberals generally. We look like normal people and talk act like normal people, hell, we are normal people! Tolerant and polite, the main difference is in Synagogue, where orthodox sit separately and conduct services in Hebrew.


Liberals are more your happy clappy lot in comparison, but outside of Synagogue they/we get on, mix and generally fit in with society and share various political and social views with others. Just normal people and you could kind of make the comparison with CoE and Catholics for the differences there are. Simplified, granted, but there you go.


Now, your ULTRA ORTHODOX JEWS, are the folk you are complaining about. The Frummers are a weird sect and frankly as different from normal Jewish folk as you can get. I just don't get them at all. The equivalent of Wahabists and those smilly Christian fundamentalist groups you get. Religion dominates their lives to the exclusion of all else.


Now as you know, Jews are famous for a rich sense of humour. I reckon the Frummers are just Jews who have none.


Each to their own, but like every religion's extremes, as long as they keep to themselves it's not so bad. They don't though.....

[TightSlot]

Echo that Turkish :)

[mixture]

Turkish Delight,

So are the Jews I know who eat bacon known as ultra liberal jews then ?

Jesting aside, nice summary !

[joy ride]

Wise words Turkish Delight!

In my area we have hundreds of African, West Indian and other foreign churches, plus all manner of small/cult/whackdoodle religions. Most occupy commercial properties but do not pay Business Rates because they worship an invisible friend, even though many of them also run commercial book shops, sweat shops, clubs and all manner of profit making business

We who do not worship invisible friends have to pay not only full whack, but presumably extra to top the council's falling income.

[Heathrow Harry]

same as help the Aged, the Red Cross and other charities that run shops in the high street

[PAXboy]

People power might help??

Israeli airline facing calls to stop 'bullying' of female passengers by ultra-Orthodox Jews - Middle East - World - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israeli-airline-facing-calls-to-stop-bullying-of-female-passengers-by-ultraorthodox-jews-9766617.html)

[Espada III]

About time. Like Turkish I am an orthodox Jew who finds the actions of my extremist co-religionists unacceptable, especially when they operate outside their ghettos (self imposed). There is this mentality that their personal religious requirements take absolute precedence over anything else. So sitting next to a women causes them to react this way even though strictly there is no religious imperative not to do so. Just like Muslim women wearing a burka - the koran does not require it.

The worst cases are usually on aeroplanes. However unlike in this case another orthodox but less extreme passenger can usually sort the situation out. But these people have no, and I mean no respect for women especially gentile or jewish unobservant women, so female flight attendants have no chance of having their requests complied with. I fly to Israel a lot and if the flight has a problem its usually caused by those you expect it to be caused by. Remove them and the trip goes swimmingly.

[SpringHeeledJack]

Mr Espada, could you perhaps explain for those of us outside the faith how these ultra orthodox adherents manage in this modern world ? If one observes the Amish people and the Hutterites for example, they live a very insular life with no influence from modern facilities, and to edicts from a time long gone, but they live amongst themselves and all is well. The ultra orthodox jews seem to be similar, BUT also seem to have use of modern life as it were. How does this work ? How do they earn money, invest etc ? I still think that if the numbers were sufficient a regular charter or sub-section of EL AL with male only crew would serve this minority admirably.

[Espada III]

Its a good question. Unlike the Amish, who are an individual sect with no 'supporters' on the outside, Orthodox Judaism is a spectrum of observancy from those who just about go to the synagogue once a year, to those who try to perform or observe every ordinance in the good book (and a few more besides) in the belief that doing so brings them closer to God.

We also practice the religion under the gaze of rabbis. Each rabbi has his own take on the rules and regulations of the religion and the Torah commands us to 'find yourself a rabbi'. So some rabbis are more lenient on particular issues than others, and some are significantly stricter. Various ultra orthodox Hasidic Jews belong to sects where the rabbinical leader of the sect has far more sway with his followers than the Pope does over the Catholics.

Judaism, also does not shun the modern world, it simply accepts it, but limits the interaction and those limits are determined by the sect leaders or the community rabbis. Hence, some communities will have no internet in the home, no TV, only basic cellphones (so no smart phones). However they are happy for other people to use them and to use them for their benefit. So a travel agent can use all the technology necessary to book a ticket for an non-internet using Jew. These Jews will frequently work within the community as teachers or even in regular jobs but within Jewish owned businesses. They will have bank accounts and own investments. In fact many orthodox Jews are big property investors mainly because it does not take all day to manage your property and the time saved is spent on charitable work or in the pursuit of further religious study.

The ultimate goal of ultra orthodox Jews is to spend as much time as possible in the study of religious texts. The morning prayers say that a person will get a great reward in the next world for things like supporting widows and orphans, helping a bride get married, encouraging attendance at synagogues three times a day, making peace between neighbours etc etc, but the greatest reward is simply for the study of the Torah and its commentaries.

With this concept in mind you can see how their personal religious requirements are paramount and nothing will get in their way of observing all the minutiae of the religion even if it means upsetting other people. They have lost sight of the bigger picture to be a Jew - We are meant to be a Light unto the Nations, and few of us achieve that, although I try to be the person 'who does the right thing'.

You will frequently find that the people who caused the fuss on the El Al flight would rarely do it so vigorously if there were more non-Jews present. They do have this tendency to assume that because you don't wear their garb you are obviously a non-believer, even if you have your head covered (like me). I wear jeans, T-shirt and yarmulke. When these people want something doing in my line of business I get the call, even if the Sabbath is about to start. They don't care that I also want to stop work and celebrate - as long as they have it off their desk.

At the end of the day, my circle call them the Fundamentalists and the Taliban, because although they are not blood thirsty murderers, their basic worldview is little different to those who are currently causing mayhem in the Middle and Near East. All I can do is behave in such a way so as to present a far better view of Jews to non-Jews than the Ultra-Orthodox and hope that because of me, people like Cabin Crew etc don't think that the EasyJet MAN- TLV flight is not the worst flight to work on.

PS - if you are cabin crew on the flight on Monday - come and find me!

[S.o.S.]

Thank you Espada III for taking the trouble to set out a cultural situation that most of us cannot readily grasp.

[redsnail]

I second SoS, thank you Espada III. :D

[SpringHeeledJack]

A third thank you mr espada. We're an an unusual bunch we humans, all so different and yet all so similar some how. I don't know how often such occurrences happen as in the article in the OP's post, but why exactly are such transgressions allowed/tolerated in this overly sensitive modern world ? When anyone becomes rowdy due to drink/drugs/medication then it's not unusual for the captain to divert to have the passengers offloaded with real consequences. Would an instance of this happening temper the attitude of the UO brethren towards the modern world (with all it's good and bad aspects ?).

[PAXboy]

I suspect the tolerance is due to religion being deeply woven into human society. Whether it is Western (essentially Christian) Middle Eastern (Judaism, Mohammedism) Sub-Continent (Sikh, Hindu) Oriental (Buddishm and related) African and South American (animism and many other related and not) and so forth ....

This is not a good or bad thing but religions have always been portrayed as responsible and they have come to be effortlessly respected. When a minister of religion appears in their official robes - people automatically afford them respect as that is what we have been brought up to do. [a bit like airline uniforms :p]

That has been building up for as long as humans have been around - only now is there any kind of concerted reaction to this (as opposed to local revolts against religion in previous centuries). So it will take a time for this to change ...

[Espada III]

Part of the issue surrounding religious extremism is that pace of life in the modern world and the speed and distance technology has advanced has left religion behind. The ultra orthodox Jews of 100 years ago would have barely been much different to 'normal' people because no one had phones, everyone wore a hat and there was a deeper level of religious observance throughout society. So its not that the Jews have moved but society has moved and sometimes their reaction to that can be a bit extreme. The Muslim groups currently murdering their way around Syria and Iraq etc clearly feel that the influence of western society on their flock is destroying their way of life and take an even more extreme line in how to combat it. The ultra orthodox simply ignore some aspects of modern life in their own homes and within their communities and sects. Hence heavily Jewish ghettos (particularly as we do not drive on the Sabbath so we need to all live within walking distance of synagogues).

There are other issues within Jewish society which has lead to changes in the way life is lead (not always for the better in my opinion), but these will have limited impact on the wider world. However the situation which occurred on the El Al flight is not a reflection of the religion, but their interpretation of customs which have grown up within the sects.

Men and women do separate for prayer but there are few other occasions when separation of the sexes in public is necessary; and an aeroplane is not one of them. I know many rabbis who simply get on a plane, sit down and act like any normal passenger. In fact some prefer that inpromptu prayer sessions on board did not happen, but that is a discussion for another thread. ...

[cavortingcheetah]

Just start a lively discussion group centered on the fact, or hypothesis, that orthodox Jewry is opposed to a Zionist state.
That should get the yamulkas wigging.

[Espada III]

If you really want to delay a plane, how about a non-orthodox woman suggesting to a Hasid that she is going to talk to sit next to him and talk about how marvelous the city of Tel Aviv is for promoting Gay Pride.....

Seriously though it is a very small minority (less than 0.1% of Jews - all members of one discredited sect who are shunned by absolutely every other Jew) who actively work against Israel and then there are some Hasidic sects who would prefer that Israel was much more 'Jewish' - read observant (like Saudi Arabia) - but will still in some shape or form be part of the spectrum of citizens.

It is interesting that during the summer, when Israel was being attacked by rockets from Gaza, there was a significant bond between all sectors of Israeli society making sure that soldiers were suitable fed, clothed, rested & spiritually cared for. This included Druze families from the north (who serve in the IDF), Hasids from Jerusalem and even the Peace Now secularists who usually decry any Israeli Army action as terrorism even if it is to save their own hides. Being attacked makes you concentrate on what is important in life and if that means working together with people you would not normally associate with, then so be it. It's a pity El Al can't use that method on its planes.........

[Basil]

It's a pity El Al can't use that method on its planes.........
(Captain) Dammit! If you lot don't play nicely together I'm going to crash this plane and kill the lot o' youse!
"Ah, of course I don't mind sitting next to your wife, Moshe. Nothing could give me greater pleasure." ;)
Bas - grew up in sectarian Christian place.