Nice One Tayside

[The Old Fat One]

Well done Tayside Aviation

BBC News - Tayside Aviation awarded £1.5m deal to train RAF cadets (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-29142985)

[A and C]

Well they can forget that if the vote is " yes".

[xrayalpha]

Why?

The RAF already spends lots of money in foreign countries.

(and I am being serious, looking at Canada, USA, Germany - not being lighthearted and meaning the Sandpit)

[mad_jock]

All part of NATO.

And its an extension of a contract they have had for years.

Politically I think there is no chance of UKr money being paid to an independent Scotland entity on a UK government contract.


Even if the RAF wanted it to happen the MP's that are left will stop it.

[A and C]

It's all about politics and perception, most people south of the boarder regard the Scotish independence vote as a regrettable platform and career enhancer of the SNP leader and would rather see Scotland as part of the union.

However if the decision of the Scotish people is to go their own way, so be it, but don't expect govenment money from down south to prop up the Scotish economy, there are plenty of flying schools in south of the boarder who would like to get their hands on this contract and I don't see it being renewed to support a foreign economy.

Remember independence means just that, the scots are going to be independent of the whole of the system south of the boarder............ They can't cherry pick the bits of independence that they want.

[xrayalpha]

No problem with trying to go it on our own - to me, that is what independence is all about.

Regards contracts. If in the EU, then (while I know there are some special rules on defence matters) there is a question of EU competition.

If not in the EU (ie if Scotland not allowed back in, or UKIP brings the UK/rUK out) then maybe there are EFTA or EEA rules? I don't know.

At the end of the day, any government should be seeking value for money. Hopefully Scotland will continue to provide that.

[gasax]

Defence contracts and value for money?

Nope. Singapore could turn out aircraft carriers at a third of the cost we are currently paying. The French could turn them out for maybe three quarters of our costs - because they are in practice at doing it (and now have a new one spare thanks to the sanctions).

No, defence contracts are all about politics and awarding contracts to countries that have just 'given you the finger' is something no politician would risk.

[mad_jock]

xray face facts Scotland ain't going to be in the EU for a period. And more than likely the Uk will be out by the time they get back in if ever if the can't get a national bank sorted out.

[maxred]

It's all about politics and perception, most people south of the boarder regard the Scotish independence vote as a regrettable platform and career enhancer of the SNP leader and would rather see Scotland as part of the union.

No, defence contracts are all about politics and awarding contracts to countries that have just 'given you the finger' is something no politician would risk.

It astonishes me the utter ignorance people have of the circumstances surrouding this referendum. it aligns with the total nonsense spouted by so called businessmen, and legacy politicians.:rolleyes:

Tayside get this because they have an impeccable track record on delivery and price. This will continue, whatever the result on the 18th.

[mad_jock]

Its hardly an impeccable record.

But far be it for politics to follow any logic or for that matter value for money

[maxred]

Well MJ, they get it year, on year. Must be doing something right.

Anyway, why would the small issue of an international border, stop them getting it in the future. Bit like us using the £, non?

[KayKay]

According to the news Tayside Aviation have won a 5 year contract. I expect MOD won't be able to pull out of the contract if Scotland votes yes (which would be bad news for us Scots for hundreds of reasons). I would not expect MOD to invite tenders from non-rUK companies when it comes up for renewal in 5 years time. As has been said already, the rUK politicians would not allow it. I hope Scotland votes no. If its yes the negotiations to separate out all the rules, regulations and administration in every walk of life will take 20 years not 18 months as SNP suggest. I've only just got my EASA license. I hope I won't have to apply for a Scottish PPL next year.

[gasax]

I'm sure it is very reassuring to imagine that independence means picking and choosing the 'bits you want'.

Unfortunately independence is much more like pregnancy - you cannot be a 'little bit pregnant'.

So independence means you are 'foreign' and all obligations cease - apart perhaps for overseas aid.

[maxred]

KayKay, please tell me you are not 68, as your moniker suggests, because if you are, what happened?

In an independent Scotland, in five years time, Tayside will be getting SDF contracts, and if they can manage, will expand to run other, foreign, contracts. Prey tell, what has made everyone so frightened of a Bright, fairer, and richer independant Scotland.

[piperboy84]

Bright, fairer, and richer independant Scotland.

Perhaps, but I just keep getting a vision of the future with Frau Merkel slapping Eck around the lugs then handing him the list of next years mandatory taxation, interest rate and new "hate" speech law directives. Then telling him to get his ass back to "Edinburg" to implement them immediately with a strict admonishment to keep his puss shut and quit ankle biting the real rulers of Scotland, with nods of approval all round from Hollande, Barroso and Von Rumpay & Co.

Doesn't sound like much freedom or independence too me.

I know, wrong forum. Won't happen again.

Edit to add: I was in Tayside Aviation Friday night, the place was hoching with RAF cadets and busy instructors, well done Tayside, it's all good.

[mad_jock]

why would the small issue of an international border, stop them getting it in the future. Bit like us using the £, non?

Because basically after the turmoil of the split the remaining voters just won't stomach it.

This idea that everything will carry on as normal post split is very far of the mark.

To be honest it doesn't matter what way it goes things are going to changed for the worse for many years.

[KayKay]

Maxred – As Piperboy says this is the wrong forum for this. We are getting a long way off the aviation theme. It’s partly my fault because I widened it out. However I’ll respond as briefly as I can. “Bright, fairer and richer”. Bright ? …..even Alex can’t control the weather. Fairer ? – I don’t feel like a victim of unfairness. Going by Jim Sillars’ comments yesterday about punishing companies who speak against “Yes” I don’t think fairness would come into it, in the brave new world of an independent Scotland. Richer ? We are just starting to pull out of the financial crash of 2008. A yes vote would set us back again for years. The turmoil of extracting Scotland from the UK would take several years. Maybe, just maybe, after 20 years Scotland might be back to the level of prosperity it has now. However I’ll be 88 by then and probably won’t care, if I’m around at all. UK is one of the most stable, secure democracies in the Western world. It has some significant flaws but it is a tolerant society and a pleasant place to live, standing comparison with any other country. I’ve yet to hear a good reason why we should destroy it.
I said I would be brief ……….I promise I’ll stick to aviation in future.

[maxred]

Ahhhhh, just love the debate. Sorry, obviously I was winding things up slightly.

Yes, please back to aviation.

Tayside at Dundee has grown into a decent organisation under the JW stewardship.

The place is busy and thriving with cadets, and long may it continue. Regardless which way our big squabble goes, they deserve to keep and develop all contracts in flight training.

[KayKay]

They used to say that to create a general aviation business worth £1million you had to start by putting £5million into it and wait a few years ! That there are flying clubs and training organisations thriving at all is great. All power to the elbow of JW and his team at TAL and anyone else who can help keep light aircraft in the air.

[xrayalpha]

Hear, hear!

Well done to all at Tayside does need to be shouted from the rooftops.

[mad_jock]

Come on Tayside have had that contract since I was in Short trousers.

This is just an extension from the previous contracts from LF's days.

They still have airframes that my mates went solo in when doing their Flying Scholarships 25 years ago. And they still don't fly in a straight line.

[abgd]

fwiw my reading of why Tayside works so well is that they can send cadets solo with several fewer hours than anywhere else due to the geography of the place. No need to teach people pfls, efatos etc... Just ditching instructions and a RIB on standby.

[mad_jock]

abgd they do exactly with them what CFS want done with them.

They get a bloke with a huge moustache in every so often who flys with the cadets and listens into briefings etc.

And every instructor gets a flight/ground briefing with said CFS dude to make sure they are teaching the RAF prescribed methods.

The standardisation and product is exactly how the RAF want it. You cant really point any blame at Tayside for course content with what gets delivered.

[abgd]

I'm not criticising them. A few years back I spent a while chatting to some of the cadets there, and the impression I got was that - at least for that class - they were trying to get them all to go solo within a very limited space of time. They weren't trying to get them through their PPL.

In that context, the idea of training 17 and 18 year olds to ditch if needed seems a very good one - something the average low-hours pilot is much more likely to pull off successfully than a forced landing pattern. If they carry on in aviation, there's time for fanstops later. If they don't, they've achieved a solo flight which is something to remain proud of.

My impressions of the place were generally positive, and the cadets seemed nice, well balanced kids. The RAF certainly seems to recruit well.

[The Old Fat One]

Read some of the comments on here with a wry smile...social media hey...people sure do like to spraff it up.

Few corrections for you all (and trust me, I know)

Public sector contracts do not get habitually "extended" (It's against the law). Most public sector contracts (and this one is no different) have to be competed every two to three years. Tayside has it because they win it. Period.

Most cadets (about 95%) solo within the allocated 12 hours because

a. They are exceptional.
b. More importantly, the vast majority have passed their gliding scholarship by going solo in a glider. Exceptions are rare (2 or 3 a year).

The course is operated under standard CAA (or whatever it is now) guidelines IAW the PPL rules and regs for PPL training...100%. The MOD throws an extra level of supervision over it because:

c. They are paying.
d. Tayside are flying Air Cadets.

The Elementary Standards Unit of the RAF Central Flying School do not occasionally pitch up, they come every six weeks or so throughout the main flying period. Their job is to

e. Audit the output, by flying with students who have soloed
f. Authorise the civilian instructors to instruct cadets(and on what type)

Tayside also have contracts to deliver the same or similar scholarships to:

GAPAN UK
GAPAN Hong Kong
The Air League
The John Cunningham Foundation
The MOD UK Graduate Engineer Programme

Its an outstanding series of scholarships, delivered by an outstanding flying school, doing an outstanding job for aviation in Scotland.

And no, I don't work there. But I do know a great deal about the Air Cadets and military aviation In Scotland...and I am a huge fan and advocate of both.

[mad_jock]

I would disagree with that.

They solo in the 12 hours just like any other kid that age that puts the effort in.

They aren't exceptional by any stretch of the imagination. The gliding does help.

they come every six weeks or so throughout the main flying period

That's occasionally pitch up in my book.


But I do know a great deal about the Air Cadets and military aviation In Scotland

And some of us have actually taught the little buggers.

The way MOD contracts are won is by being the cheapest.

[gasax]

Why don't you just add a banner and logo? Tayside have had the air cadet contract since before I learnt to fly - I got my licence at the end of 1985 there, having fought, that summer, to actually get hold of an aircraft and instructor which I had to book.

At the age of 31, I went solo at 8.5 hrs so solo at 12 hrs from younger, more focussed kids is hardly exceptional - especially when they have also had gliding experience.

Tayside have run a successful training machine for cadets for over 30 years. Well done, but it does not make them a particularly good place to learn to fly. When I learnt, they were better than the infamous Peter Forbes at Aberdeen - but that just means they actually had honest accounting!

So fine, Tayside continue with ATC cadet training. But if you want to learn to fly and you are using your own money, visit before you commit

[The Old Fat One]

The way MOD contracts are won is by being the cheapest.

and some of us have written public sector contracts (from both sides of the fence).

I suspect you are intelligent enough to know this is wrong, so why type it? Public sector contracts are subjected to a range of measures of which price is one. A significant one as it should be (for the tax payer), but a whole host of other measures come in to play on all public sector contracts.

For example, all companies bidding for public sector contracts are financially stress tested...again it is the law.

I could go on, but clearly some members here are a tad jealous and as I said, I've nothing to do with the place.

I freely admit I am biased about the Air Cadet cadre; I have met thousands, flown with hundreds, and trained many of the top grade cadets (many of whom have scholarships) at flying training schools. The vast majority of the ones who have managed to accumulate all the scholarships on offer are exceptional human beings who go on to achieve a great deal in life. Not necessarily in the military or in aviation.

And on that note, I'll leave you to your little nips.