Who's worth what ..... ?

[Captain Mayday]

Let's get the ball rolling on who gets what - facts, not rumour - let's hear what ATCOs and pilots round Europe get - then we'll see who the paupers are.

To start it off, welcome the relatively new kids on the block, Ryanair. Who says there's no money in aviation ? 150 new 738s - that'd cost a bob or two !

So here are the terms and conditions from the Irish jury .... taken straight off their website.
-------------------------------------
Why join Ryanair ?

Outstanding earning potential – Current agreement has Captains’ grossed up earnings running from STG£88,700 to in excess of STG£100,000 :cool: and First Officer grossed up earnings running from STG£66,000 to in excess of STG£70,620 *2.

Fixed roster pattern - 5 on, 3 off, 5 on, 3 off, fixed days off, no scheduled overnights permitting Pilots to plan their lives with certainty

Unrivalled Career Progression – potential for command within 3 years

Loss of Licence Insurance Cover of €190,000 :cool:

5 Year Agreement on pay, benefits and share options

Share Option Scheme – which has seen returns of €230,000 in 4 years for existing pilots :cool:

Excellent Flight Benefits from day one
------------------------------------------------

So how does that compare to a valid NATS ATCO ? ;)

[Hand Solo]

Slightly questionable start to the topic, quoting the highest paid airline pilots in the UK. What are you trying to prove? Salary does not equate to worth or UK ATCOs would be the highest paid in Europe.

[TrafficTraffic]

UK ATCOs would be the highest paid in Europe

Highest paid what?

Clowns ;)

It's the air of humility that always impresses me when I see any of these posts from my UK Brothers.

...Edited

I had a comment about the whinging that goes on but I will withdraw it and apologise to those who read it. But I think comments like the above ..... UK ATCOs would be the highest paid in Europe cannot be made by anybody who has not seen or worked somewhere else.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

OK. I'm a "top of salary scale" Heathrow controller - ATCOII working grade; nearly 32 years experience. I now work part-time prior to retirement (no night duties!) and my last full salary was in January. My pay chit for Jan said: Base Salary £56042. I also received £122.92 London Weighting, £356 shift pay and £44.60 travel allowance (around 4p per mile). My take home pay out of all that was £3353.29 - somewhat less than the vast majority of commercial airline pilots I suspect. Of course we too have a share "option", which is worth slightly less than the paper it's written on. If I train student controllers I get about an extra 3%, but the procedure to get it is fairly involved.

I believe Spanish controllers earn around £75,000 pa and they retain that as a 100% pension until age 70+. That's what I was told by a senior NATS Manager. If it's wrong then maybe one of our Spanish friends would deny it...

[stopp the climb]

At the other end of the rainbow a top of the scale ATCO 3 (all NATS contract airfields except EGLL/KK/CC/GW) with 30 years experience takes home £2600

[250 kts]

Traffic Traffic,

As you are so quick to knock the UK ATCOs, where do YOU work and what is your breakdown salary wise. We may then be able to judge whether you are worth what you are paid.

We are at a turning point in the ATC world in the UK and what happens in the next few months will determine our conditions of service/salaries for the foreseeable future.

I suspect you work at Maastricht and hence salaries are not really a major issue.

Looking forward to seeing the figures.

[fatcontroller]

Traffic Traffic

Thanks apology NOT accepted - I did read the original post.
I wonder where you work though - is it actually for NATS or someone else. Either way you don't sound like any NATS ATCO I have ever heard in fact you sound more like you have an axe to grind :rolleyes: and to refer to us as Clowns is pathetic.

If you don't work for NATS then please do not comment on how hard we do or don't work - if it was so good I'm sure you too would be working for the same employer as us - if you are qualified to do so of course.
If you do work for NATS at LATC or LACC then I can only assume you enjoyed your time over the past 20 or so years and are looking forward to a nice retirement while the rest of us face 20 years + of degrading pay and condition deals and a less than secure pension.

Whoever or whatever you really are I (as a NATS ATCO) do not deserve or appreciate your insults and to do so invalidates this useful thread


Incidentally - A Terminal Control ATCO at LATC valid for approx 4.5 years who is valid on multiple sectors (more than required in their terms of employment) and an instructor takes home about £2800 per month - hardly imperssive especially when you have to live 'down south' OH Bye the way -- we have experienced traffic growth this year over a comparative period last year !! :p


See Ya :mad:

[Hand Solo]

Well I've seen and worked somewhere else, in fact all over Europe on a daily basis. UK ATCOs are head and shoulders above their european counterparts and are acknowledged as such by myself and most other UK pilots. Despite what buffoons like Traffic Traffic say.

[1261]

I think (based on previous posts) that TT is an Aussie working at Maastricht UAC....

[niknak]

I don't work for NATS, but we do APR/APC/ADC at a UK regional airfield.
Salary scales are from £30K - £47K all in, we're busy, but not as busy as Heathrow/Gatwick et al by any stretch of the noggin, but we do have the mix of traffic (light to heavy), and the combination of duties that elsewhere would be done individually, you don't get asked if you "want" to do OJT - it's expected of you unless you really throw the teddy out, and this makes our work rate somewhat comparable.
However, it's in a nice area of the country, easily accessible, (less than 20 mins each way), and it's a good place to work with reasonable line management.

Compare that with up £60 - £70K to work as an atco in London or Swanick, outrageous house prices dictating your standard of living, up to 2 hours - maybe more, travelling each way often on choked roads and motorways, and all the baggage which goes with the job these days.

All of a sudden, my side of the fence seems greener.;)

[fatcontroller]

Niknak

I agree with you. In fact we are pretty well expected to train as well.
Must point out however that an ATCO 2 does not actually earn more than £60k a year it's more like £56K basic pay I know it's being picky but otherwise everyone will think an ATCO earns £70K.

See Ya

:D

[5milesbaby]

Having had dealings before, I can confirm that Total To$$er is an Aussie controller sitting happy on the Maastricht fence.

Seems that no-one else wants to disclose their fares outside the UK, which is unfortunate as it could really help the UK teams in negotiations ;)

Would also like to know how well other students are paid. NATS start at around 15K at college, moving upto 22K when they graduate. Top scale trainees get a maximum of 30K.

[tug3]

Include me in the list of those who couldn't give a '4X' what a certain individual has to say.

Perhaps the question should be not what the others (Non NATS) are on, but what we (in NATS) think we're worth. Lets face it, within NATS we in effect have varying scales depending upon where you work geographically, (London/SE allowance), so to try and broaden this to encompass most of western Europe is a bit tricky to say the least.

Perhaps when, (not 'if'), we join the big € bandwagon it'll be easier to compare and contrast. But 'til then, I'll just put my X in the 'No' box and see what happens.

rgds

T3

[Scott Voigt]

5miles;

I've posted our entire pay process on another thread and also posted our pay scales a while back... The web sites that I provided in the other thread will give you everything that you want on the US ( FAA ) pay side...

regards

[5milesbaby]

TT - Pop Quiz

Do you:

a) Drink
b) Smoke
c) Drink more
d) Still want a trip around our lovely centres?

Score: Yes - 1 point No - 0 point

If you get at least 3 points then I could be tempted to try and arrange what I can, and try and at least stop playing slanging tennis every time you post. ;)

Humour aside, my e-mail should work if you want to come to the sunny side of the UK, and then at least we can have a go at quashing some of the wittiness that tends to wind me and several collegues off the scale :D

[5milesbaby]

Thanks Scott, saw that a while back. Will get searching....... :)

[TrafficTraffic]

5Miles
The answer I think important is that of D) Yes, of course I do.
Let me get back to you in a few lines.

Meanwhile

250kts
-thanks for the suggestion of helping me find out my self worth - but I am quite happy with my current valuation.

fatcontroller
-Now before you give yourself a panic attack - I removed the post and apologised for doing exactly what you went and did - being prejudice. if it was so good I'm sure you too would be working for the same employer as us - if you are qualified to do so of course. I have changed my employer once already - to gain further experience and to improve my working conditions. I had no particular problem with my previous employer but wanted to broaden my horizons. I keep posting and winding you guys up because you do it to yourselves - you keep looking over the fence at what the guy next door has.....this has to bad for morale when you see the guy out polishing his Porsche and swimming in his pool - rather than looking over the fence, look inside your own house and work out what you think is fair. I agree its nice to have an idea about others.
Lets assume I am an Australian working in Maastricht (Next you'll be telling me there are Irish working in Germany ;) ) I think that I am relatively well paid - but it has its downside I am 18800kms from home, my grip on foreign languages is almost as bad as Atherton playing Warne's googly and to top it off it rains here 367* days of the year (*give or take a little) - but this is my choice.
I have been rated for 12 years - enroute, procedural, radar, tower, approach, oceanic and instructing - every part of it I have enjoyed - every part of it I knew exactly what I would be paid and roughly what each job entailed. If you can honestly tell that when you signed up no-one showed you how much you would be paid - or how promotions or your salary would increase then I really do apologise and think this is wrong. Since you joined I have no doubt that things have changed but that is what your union is for - to protect your rights and conditions. But come on we are all professionals - like the line from the movie "they bought there tickets they knew what they were getting into"
Ohh yeah I wonder what is worse a Clown or a Buffoon (check with Handsolo for me will you?).


Sorry I digress

5mb - you bet I will be there with bells on and will make the trip before the end of the year - I may have to leave my cape and cowl on though and I dont want any "you should have been here an hour ago" stories either.

:)

[Short Approach?]

As a Danish ATCO student,you start out with the equivalent of 16000£ p.a. It stays that way untill you finish your education and checks out as a controller. Then I believe we start out around 32000£ p.a.
BUT! then we have to deal with the outrageous taxes here in Denmark... not much to take home then :) :mad:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Traffictraffic. Aha.. now we know. 12 years rated!!!!! You're just some kid. Get your knees brown a bit and come back in 20 years when you've got a bit of experience behind you!! But still come and say hello if you visit LTCC - I'm the grey-haired old git on Heathrow.

[250 kts]

Thanks for the reply TT-and your take home pay is?????????--why don't you just answer the bloody question or is it so much that you are embarassed.

There are lots of NATS staff who would readily come to Maastricht but there is an agreement between the 2 employers about poaching staff.

One of the two who did the move a couple of years ago described the workload as no more than moderate with no "finger nail biting" sessions to worry about. He's more than happy with his life.

It has always been a question that I have asked- that the en-route charges go into a pot but Maastricht appear to take out the biggest share-why is that ??

Looking forward to straight answer TT.

[NoWay]

Ok, to give you an idea what controllers pay is at Maastricht I'll give you an example, my example.

I've been qualified for four years and my take home pay last month at todays exchange rate was...... 3,600 quid. That includes shift allowance, expatriation allowance and OJTI pay.

Now does that help? Please discuss,

Cheers

[fatcontroller]

TT thanks for the reply - I agree with 250 KTs though - can we have a straight answer. and your previous employer - was that or has it ever been NATS -


Thanks no way - that equates roughly to ATCO 1 pay in NATS.- Not bad for 4.5 years valid is it !!!

So summarize then ;

An ATCO 2 in UK with roughly the same qualifications and responcibilities as NO Way in Maastricht earns £800 - £1000 per month less
and - No way earns slightly more than the average ATCO 1 pay in the UK :mad:

Where do I apply ? :D:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Few years ago a buddy of mine - BA 747 skipper - went for a visit to Maastricht. When he came back he said: "I don't believe it; those guys earn more than me!"

[TrafficTraffic]

Few years ago a buddy of mine - BA 747 skipper - went for a visit to Maastricht. When he came back he said: "I don't believe it; those guys earn more than me!"

- Pilots are just failed Air Traffic Controllers who can only look after one aircraft ;) ;) ;) .....

No offence to our Brothers in the air :)

[Justin Time]

- fatcontroller, that 800 - 1000 pounds extra a month would have to account for the extra 'finger nail' biting caused on the other side of the fence every time Swanwick goes tits up !!!!!

- 250 kts, not too sure about the gentlemen's agreement any more, from what I've heard its pretty much every organisation for itself out there at the moment. Perhaps everyone in the world would be better informed about pay if there were more movement of controllers around the traps. And then if there were an exodus from NATS then maybe those in the ivory towers would come and play with more money....after all it can't be all that bad if everyone stays, given the numerous opportunities in your immediate neighbourhood!!!!! My other point would be how do you figure out whether anybody is WORTH what they get paid??????

- Hand Shandy , you wouldn't be a VIRTUAL PILOT would you????
"UK ATCOs head and shoulders above their european counterparts" What a load of toss!!!

- TT, whew !!! glad to see you back on the ball,

"Pilots are just failed Air Traffic Controllers who can only look after one aircraft ..... "

everyone might think you may be going soft !!!!

Back onto the subject of who's getting what. I have a distrustful suspicion that not everyone out there is being completley honest about the FULL pay ( including each and every benefit) that they are receiving. When I thought that all the cards had been dealt then I may show my hand as well :) :) :)

[professor yaffle]

I think there was a Gents Agreement ages ago, but I would have thought that post privatisation that it would no longer apply.Crack open the Grolsch!

[Scott Voigt]

Hey;

I posted ALL of our pay <G>...

[fish food]

NoWay: Thanks for your post! My own example:

I've been qualified for four years and my NATS take home pay last month was approx .....2600 quid. That includes shift allowance and OJTI pay.

Seems you're approx 1K in your hand better off per month than me! Any vacancies????

;)

[Hand Solo]

Justin you really need to get on the receiving end of ATC sometime. Why not try flying around the Roma TMA to see what bad ATC is about!

[Justin Time]

Ahhh Hand Shandy,

I see where I have gone wrong now. Roma TMA, that would be ALL of NATS european counterparts then!!!!

No wonder its such a problem for some to figure out whether Stockholm is north of Dusseldorf.

What a quality education!!!!!

[Hand Solo]

Thanks for that Justin. You know sarcasm is the lowest form of wit? Why not get yourself an ATPL and fly round Europe for a bit, then you can judge for yourself who does a bad job, who does a good job and who does an impeccable job. Meanwhile I'll just be off to Madrid to reduce speed and expedite descent!?:confused:

[TrafficTraffic]

Meanwhile I'll just be off to Madrid to reduce speed and expedite descent!?

That would be because you are the only aircraft in the sky wouldnt it - oh and also because you never make mistakes - oh and because the flight in front of you realy did adhere to the speed they were given ....... dont go mentioning places or names after all...

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.,
;)

[YWG ATC]

Canadian ATC's (enroute in a Centre) earn (in Canadian $s):

$65,876 1st year controller
$90,582 10th year (and highest increment) controller. There is one increment higher pay each year for 10 years.

While in training, no pay at the Nav Canada training institute, and after graduating there, $46,558 on site training pay. If you qualify you move to 1st year controller pay. We are in contract talks now, so these pay rates may, hopefully, will change.

http://atsrecruitment.navcanada.ca/Salary_en.html

[Justin Time]

"You know sarcasm is the lowest form of wit?"

Thanks for noticing Shandy, After your brilliant demonstration of european geography and clear understanding of ATC I wasn't sure that you would get it !!!;) ;) ;)

And such a well thought out and considered response, I am surprised that you didn't consider the more reasoned "f**k off" instead. Goes to show that you weren't as ignorant as I'd first thought, ohh silly me. Won't go for the lowest common denominator next time.........just the next one up.

Oh and while you're at it, would love to know who does an "impeccable job"!!

[Lon More]

This is getting predictable, ain't it?
Lent is over so can we stop the, "We are worthy/not worthy/more worthy than you," sackcloth and ashes routine?

I guess the highest paid controller here must be Heathrow Director , "...pay chit for january said £56042...", This equates to £672,504 per annum!! Perhaps a typo? :rolleyes: If not, junior controllers are definitely being overpaid - come back when your testicles have descended.:D

Smiles Baby You accuse TT of, ".... sitting on the Maastricht Fence." Please elucidate; I think he made his point very clearly.
"... it could really help the UK teams in negotiations." Why, after being told that we are rubbish because we don't work in the UK, should we raise a a finger to help you. Remember, the best thing to come out of the neighbourhood of Swanwick was, "Howard's Way," and that was cr@p.

250 knots the gentleman's agreement, long since disappeared as there is little honour amongst thieves, was always pretty much a one way street. any one applying from Maastricht was told that their ratings were not acceptable and that they could endure the complete course at the College of Knowledge.
Prof. Yaffle For info, EC has decided to concentrate on ab-initio training for the foreseeable future as theperformance of conversion trainees has been unacceptable recently. Many of them going RTU as they were unable/unwilling to validate. This unfortunately included one of the nicest and certainly bravest blokes I have ever met who was a FAC in Bosnia but could not adjust to the traffic here. Dfferent strokes for different blokes...

Nice to see that the old Route User Charges chestnut is still alive and well. The facts are that the contracting states determine the rate; Eurocontrol collects it, making a charge for the service and for the provision of CFMU and IFPS where applicable Due to economies of scale, this is cheaper than doing it on an individual basis. Until recently the U.K. was the most expensive, now overtaken by Belgium. Maastricht UAC is funded by the so called Four States group (The Benelux and Germany) and is accountable to them. Definitely not a bottomless pot! I'm sure the charges are available on the web site.


Scott "I posted <all>> our pay." Thank God for one honest man!:)

To Hand Shandy sorry Hand Solo and others, "Salary does not equate with worth or UK ATCOs would be the highest paid in Europe" (My personal opinion- only after going back to school and getting an O level in Geography. Copenhagen is NORTH of Frankfurt, muppet.)and The Fat Controller's , ".... degrading pay and conditions." Your lives are in your own hands. Instead of making more noise than an Israeli A.F. C97 departing EGKK with full JATO assistance, wake up and visit the real world. You will not get something for nothing. As correctly pointed out by Wide Body in another thread,, "... it never ceases to amaze methat in every pay negotiation .... you roll over and play puppy." When push comes to shove your Union Reps will only do what you tell them to, why should they stick their necks out when you are not prepared to help yourselves. Many years ago, before even I joined ATC, the powers that be at the Min.of Aggravation as it then was wanted to lump Controllers together with railway signalmen for salary basis, fortunately there were real men then. Who cares if the Spanish get 100% pensions or a junior controller at Maastricht receives the same as an ATCO 1, why should this mean you receive the same? Instead of complaining about the high salaries paid to expats. go abroad yourselves, or is the reason, as I suspect:
1) I don't like the food.
2) I can't speak the language and they don't understand English.
3) It's full of foreigners.

For many years various controllers associations actively campaigned against the very existance of Maastricht UAC. We are still here and as you suspect, well rewarded for our work. But we have done this without one day being lost to strikes and always with a minimal effect on our customers, the airlines..The difference between us is that we were united in our actions; the most effective was a ban on training for a period of a few weeks.
The only place you will find Sympathy is somewhere between **** and Syphilis in the dictionary.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I apologize if I have left out anyone else who feels that I should have insutled them - I'll get around to it sometime and as a reward for reading this somewhat dijointed missive here is my salary from last year.

pause for drum roll

Top of the grade, i.e. B1 Step 8, Supervisor; 53 years old;32 years with Euro; 2 with the CAA; divorced and no dependent kids any more; expat. allowance.

drum roll gets louder.........

166.233,26 EUR Salary
2.657,34 EUR Employers contribution to Medical Insurance

168.890,60 EUR Total
-75.627, 49 EUR Tax Paid

93.163,11 EUR left for Beer and Pizza


CYMBAL CRASH .... Elvis leaves the building

Of course no body will read this bit; Allowed tax deductions 0: Medical Insurance covers Max of 80% of actual cost

[The Fat Controller]

Please do not attribute "fatcontroller's" post to me.

"The Fat Controller" lives in sunny Scotland and has not posted in this thread until today, so here I go................
After the last couple of days of restrictions at LACC, I think that ScACC and MACC are worth the same pay as those residing at Swanwick-on-Sea, after all, it seems that most of the UK domestic traffic these days is worked by these 2 units, along with those well paid TC types.
Time for Prospect to put in a claim on our behalf I think.

[Lon More]

Apologies to The Fat Controller and all in Scottish and Manchester.I had noticed that almost 100% of the whining came from down Sout..

Swanwick on Sea, another argument for complete independence

[Warped Factor]

May (or may not) be relevant when it comes to discussing who might be worth what, just thought I'd throw it in.

Gathered from respective company web-sites, year 2000 data.....

LATCC 1.9m

Maastricht UAC 1.2m

Scottish 483k

Manch 192k

Scott, where would these movement rates put us on your performance based scales? Not at the top I suspect :)

WF.

[Lon More]

Warped factor,

Therproblem here is comparing like with like: Scottish and London are true ACCs; Manchester is a sort of super Approach unit: Maastricht is FL245+
Do you have the numbers for control staff at these units?

[Warped Factor]

Terminal Control is around the 230 mark.

Don't know about about anywhere else.

We don't have split movement figures yet for LACC/LTCC that I'm aware of.

WF.

[Bigears]

May I suggest that the total traffic figure is irrelevent when deciding whos worth what- complexity and individual sector 'busyness' should be a more worthwhile measure.

[Scott Voigt]

Warped Factor;

Well we use a lot of other factors besides just traffic count to figure out our scales... However from having been to most of these facilities <G>, I would hazard a guess that NERC would probably be on the high end of an ATC 11 ( we are a 12 ), and Maastricht would probably be around a 10. The folks in Scotland would probably be between a 9 or 10 depending on a few things. Manchester would probably be in the ATC 7 range...

regards

[250 kts]

The Fat Controller,

Not sure how restrictions at LACC increase the amount of traffic handled at ScACC. Either the traffic was overflying Scottish FIR or it wasn't. As for MaCC there is no doubt that S29 is picking up some of the domestic traffic but don't forget that every sector has a Target Sector Flow above which the traffic should not go.

The staff shortages which we have at LACC ( which were easily predicted years ago) means that restrictions are applied to ensure that sectors don't split and hence underlying sectors pick up some of the LACC traffic. However I note that neither ScACC or MaCC have the need to put on any significant restrictions. Is this because there is a certain bravado not to put on the rates or because the traffic is not really there on a continuous basis-the latter I would suspect!!

[5milesbaby]

Lon More - if I knew how to elucidate then I would, sorry to show my lack of education, but who needs English???????

As for why I won't move abroad,
a) wife
b) family
c) don't want to.

I've just found my P60 (end of year pay details etc. for financial year)

Area Radar Controller, valid for 2 years, £45000 income (including 10 months London Weighting, now deceased. Unsociable hours pay. Home to duty allowance. Extras INCLUDED: bonus for Nerc opening, another previously agreed in year before negotiations, and loss of London weighting compensation (3 years worth).
Of that, £12000 paid in Tax, and not sure if that includes National Insurance (£200 per month approx.) On top of that, about £2500 goes into the failing single funded pension scheme.

[The Fat Controller]

Sorry to nit-pick, I didn't actually say that ScACC worked any MORE, just that we worked it, when, without LACC restrictions it would have been up and away OVER MACC S29 airspace.
Just ask the workers on Dean Cross sector at ScACC and S29 at MACC how lovely it is to work all that traffic at FL270........
One more day shift, then 3 weeks in the sun, so no more annoying posts from me for a while............then it's the real summer traffic........anyone fancy FL190 until French airspace going to Ibiza ?

[Vercingetorix]

Maxing out their contracts with whingeing & sick leave is an Ozzie characteristic

[divingduck]

vercingetorix.....and you base that allegation on what exactly?????

How does one "max out" a contract?

Just wondering, cause, being an Aussie, I'd of course like to do it too...

As our UK friends would describe you....prat.