Who's worth what ..... ?
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Who's worth what ..... ?
Let's get the ball rolling on who gets what - facts, not rumour - let's hear what ATCOs and pilots round Europe get - then we'll see who the paupers are.
To start it off, welcome the relatively new kids on the block, Ryanair. Who says there's no money in aviation ? 150 new 738s - that'd cost a bob or two !
So here are the terms and conditions from the Irish jury .... taken straight off their website.
-------------------------------------
Why join Ryanair ?
Outstanding earning potential – Current agreement has Captains’ grossed up earnings running from STG£88,700 to in excess of STG£100,000
and First Officer grossed up earnings running from STG£66,000 to in excess of STG£70,620 *2.
Fixed roster pattern - 5 on, 3 off, 5 on, 3 off, fixed days off, no scheduled overnights permitting Pilots to plan their lives with certainty
Unrivalled Career Progression – potential for command within 3 years
Loss of Licence Insurance Cover of €190,000
5 Year Agreement on pay, benefits and share options
Share Option Scheme – which has seen returns of €230,000 in 4 years for existing pilots
Excellent Flight Benefits from day one
------------------------------------------------
So how does that compare to a valid NATS ATCO ?
To start it off, welcome the relatively new kids on the block, Ryanair. Who says there's no money in aviation ? 150 new 738s - that'd cost a bob or two !
So here are the terms and conditions from the Irish jury .... taken straight off their website.
-------------------------------------
Why join Ryanair ?
Outstanding earning potential – Current agreement has Captains’ grossed up earnings running from STG£88,700 to in excess of STG£100,000
and First Officer grossed up earnings running from STG£66,000 to in excess of STG£70,620 *2.Fixed roster pattern - 5 on, 3 off, 5 on, 3 off, fixed days off, no scheduled overnights permitting Pilots to plan their lives with certainty
Unrivalled Career Progression – potential for command within 3 years
Loss of Licence Insurance Cover of €190,000
5 Year Agreement on pay, benefits and share options
Share Option Scheme – which has seen returns of €230,000 in 4 years for existing pilots
Excellent Flight Benefits from day one
------------------------------------------------
So how does that compare to a valid NATS ATCO ?
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Slightly questionable start to the topic, quoting the highest paid airline pilots in the UK. What are you trying to prove? Salary does not equate to worth or UK ATCOs would be the highest paid in Europe.
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OMG here we go again
UK ATCOs would be the highest paid in Europe
Clowns
It's the air of humility that always impresses me when I see any of these posts from my UK Brothers.
...Edited
I had a comment about the whinging that goes on but I will withdraw it and apologise to those who read it. But I think comments like the above .....
UK ATCOs would be the highest paid in Europe
Last edited by TrafficTraffic; 28th May 2002 at 11:11.
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OK. I'm a "top of salary scale" Heathrow controller - ATCOII working grade; nearly 32 years experience. I now work part-time prior to retirement (no night duties!) and my last full salary was in January. My pay chit for Jan said: Base Salary £56042. I also received £122.92 London Weighting, £356 shift pay and £44.60 travel allowance (around 4p per mile). My take home pay out of all that was £3353.29 - somewhat less than the vast majority of commercial airline pilots I suspect. Of course we too have a share "option", which is worth slightly less than the paper it's written on. If I train student controllers I get about an extra 3%, but the procedure to get it is fairly involved.
I believe Spanish controllers earn around £75,000 pa and they retain that as a 100% pension until age 70+. That's what I was told by a senior NATS Manager. If it's wrong then maybe one of our Spanish friends would deny it...
I believe Spanish controllers earn around £75,000 pa and they retain that as a 100% pension until age 70+. That's what I was told by a senior NATS Manager. If it's wrong then maybe one of our Spanish friends would deny it...
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Traffic Traffic,
As you are so quick to knock the UK ATCOs, where do YOU work and what is your breakdown salary wise. We may then be able to judge whether you are worth what you are paid.
We are at a turning point in the ATC world in the UK and what happens in the next few months will determine our conditions of service/salaries for the foreseeable future.
I suspect you work at Maastricht and hence salaries are not really a major issue.
Looking forward to seeing the figures.
As you are so quick to knock the UK ATCOs, where do YOU work and what is your breakdown salary wise. We may then be able to judge whether you are worth what you are paid.
We are at a turning point in the ATC world in the UK and what happens in the next few months will determine our conditions of service/salaries for the foreseeable future.
I suspect you work at Maastricht and hence salaries are not really a major issue.
Looking forward to seeing the figures.
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Traffic Traffic
Thanks apology NOT accepted - I did read the original post.
I wonder where you work though - is it actually for NATS or someone else. Either way you don't sound like any NATS ATCO I have ever heard in fact you sound more like you have an axe to grind
and to refer to us as Clowns is pathetic.
If you don't work for NATS then please do not comment on how hard we do or don't work - if it was so good I'm sure you too would be working for the same employer as us - if you are qualified to do so of course.
If you do work for NATS at LATC or LACC then I can only assume you enjoyed your time over the past 20 or so years and are looking forward to a nice retirement while the rest of us face 20 years + of degrading pay and condition deals and a less than secure pension.
Whoever or whatever you really are I (as a NATS ATCO) do not deserve or appreciate your insults and to do so invalidates this useful thread
Incidentally - A Terminal Control ATCO at LATC valid for approx 4.5 years who is valid on multiple sectors (more than required in their terms of employment) and an instructor takes home about £2800 per month - hardly imperssive especially when you have to live 'down south' OH Bye the way -- we have experienced traffic growth this year over a comparative period last year !!
See Ya
Thanks apology NOT accepted - I did read the original post.
I wonder where you work though - is it actually for NATS or someone else. Either way you don't sound like any NATS ATCO I have ever heard in fact you sound more like you have an axe to grind
and to refer to us as Clowns is pathetic.If you don't work for NATS then please do not comment on how hard we do or don't work - if it was so good I'm sure you too would be working for the same employer as us - if you are qualified to do so of course.
If you do work for NATS at LATC or LACC then I can only assume you enjoyed your time over the past 20 or so years and are looking forward to a nice retirement while the rest of us face 20 years + of degrading pay and condition deals and a less than secure pension.
Whoever or whatever you really are I (as a NATS ATCO) do not deserve or appreciate your insults and to do so invalidates this useful thread
Incidentally - A Terminal Control ATCO at LATC valid for approx 4.5 years who is valid on multiple sectors (more than required in their terms of employment) and an instructor takes home about £2800 per month - hardly imperssive especially when you have to live 'down south' OH Bye the way -- we have experienced traffic growth this year over a comparative period last year !!
See Ya
Last edited by fatcontroller; 28th May 2002 at 12:01.
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Well I've seen and worked somewhere else, in fact all over Europe on a daily basis. UK ATCOs are head and shoulders above their european counterparts and are acknowledged as such by myself and most other UK pilots. Despite what buffoons like Traffic Traffic say.
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I don't work for NATS, but we do APR/APC/ADC at a UK regional airfield.
Salary scales are from £30K - £47K all in, we're busy, but not as busy as Heathrow/Gatwick et al by any stretch of the noggin, but we do have the mix of traffic (light to heavy), and the combination of duties that elsewhere would be done individually, you don't get asked if you "want" to do OJT - it's expected of you unless you really throw the teddy out, and this makes our work rate somewhat comparable.
However, it's in a nice area of the country, easily accessible, (less than 20 mins each way), and it's a good place to work with reasonable line management.
Compare that with up £60 - £70K to work as an atco in London or Swanick, outrageous house prices dictating your standard of living, up to 2 hours - maybe more, travelling each way often on choked roads and motorways, and all the baggage which goes with the job these days.
All of a sudden, my side of the fence seems greener.
Salary scales are from £30K - £47K all in, we're busy, but not as busy as Heathrow/Gatwick et al by any stretch of the noggin, but we do have the mix of traffic (light to heavy), and the combination of duties that elsewhere would be done individually, you don't get asked if you "want" to do OJT - it's expected of you unless you really throw the teddy out, and this makes our work rate somewhat comparable.
However, it's in a nice area of the country, easily accessible, (less than 20 mins each way), and it's a good place to work with reasonable line management.
Compare that with up £60 - £70K to work as an atco in London or Swanick, outrageous house prices dictating your standard of living, up to 2 hours - maybe more, travelling each way often on choked roads and motorways, and all the baggage which goes with the job these days.
All of a sudden, my side of the fence seems greener.
Last edited by niknak; 29th May 2002 at 22:12.
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Niknak
I agree with you. In fact we are pretty well expected to train as well.
Must point out however that an ATCO 2 does not actually earn more than £60k a year it's more like £56K basic pay I know it's being picky but otherwise everyone will think an ATCO earns £70K.
See Ya
I agree with you. In fact we are pretty well expected to train as well.
Must point out however that an ATCO 2 does not actually earn more than £60k a year it's more like £56K basic pay I know it's being picky but otherwise everyone will think an ATCO earns £70K.
See Ya
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Having had dealings before, I can confirm that Total To$$er is an Aussie controller sitting happy on the Maastricht fence.
Seems that no-one else wants to disclose their fares outside the UK, which is unfortunate as it could really help the UK teams in negotiations
Would also like to know how well other students are paid. NATS start at around 15K at college, moving upto 22K when they graduate. Top scale trainees get a maximum of 30K.
Seems that no-one else wants to disclose their fares outside the UK, which is unfortunate as it could really help the UK teams in negotiations
Would also like to know how well other students are paid. NATS start at around 15K at college, moving upto 22K when they graduate. Top scale trainees get a maximum of 30K.
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Include me in the list of those who couldn't give a '4X' what a certain individual has to say.
Perhaps the question should be not what the others (Non NATS) are on, but what we (in NATS) think we're worth. Lets face it, within NATS we in effect have varying scales depending upon where you work geographically, (London/SE allowance), so to try and broaden this to encompass most of western Europe is a bit tricky to say the least.
Perhaps when, (not 'if'), we join the big € bandwagon it'll be easier to compare and contrast. But 'til then, I'll just put my X in the 'No' box and see what happens.
rgds
T3
Perhaps the question should be not what the others (Non NATS) are on, but what we (in NATS) think we're worth. Lets face it, within NATS we in effect have varying scales depending upon where you work geographically, (London/SE allowance), so to try and broaden this to encompass most of western Europe is a bit tricky to say the least.
Perhaps when, (not 'if'), we join the big € bandwagon it'll be easier to compare and contrast. But 'til then, I'll just put my X in the 'No' box and see what happens.
rgds
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5miles;
I've posted our entire pay process on another thread and also posted our pay scales a while back... The web sites that I provided in the other thread will give you everything that you want on the US ( FAA ) pay side...
regards
I've posted our entire pay process on another thread and also posted our pay scales a while back... The web sites that I provided in the other thread will give you everything that you want on the US ( FAA ) pay side...
regards
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TT - Pop Quiz
Do you:
a) Drink
b) Smoke
c) Drink more
d) Still want a trip around our lovely centres?
Score: Yes - 1 point No - 0 point
If you get at least 3 points then I could be tempted to try and arrange what I can, and try and at least stop playing slanging tennis every time you post.
Humour aside, my e-mail should work if you want to come to the sunny side of the UK, and then at least we can have a go at quashing some of the wittiness that tends to wind me and several collegues off the scale
Do you:
a) Drink
b) Smoke
c) Drink more
d) Still want a trip around our lovely centres?
Score: Yes - 1 point No - 0 point
If you get at least 3 points then I could be tempted to try and arrange what I can, and try and at least stop playing slanging tennis every time you post.
Humour aside, my e-mail should work if you want to come to the sunny side of the UK, and then at least we can have a go at quashing some of the wittiness that tends to wind me and several collegues off the scale
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TT - Pop Quiz
5Miles
The answer I think important is that of D) Yes, of course I do.
Let me get back to you in a few lines.
Meanwhile
250kts
-thanks for the suggestion of helping me find out my self worth - but I am quite happy with my current valuation.
fatcontroller
-Now before you give yourself a panic attack - I removed the post and apologised for doing exactly what you went and did - being prejudice.
I have changed my employer once already - to gain further experience and to improve my working conditions. I had no particular problem with my previous employer but wanted to broaden my horizons. I keep posting and winding you guys up because you do it to yourselves - you keep looking over the fence at what the guy next door has.....this has to bad for morale when you see the guy out polishing his Porsche and swimming in his pool - rather than looking over the fence, look inside your own house and work out what you think is fair. I agree its nice to have an idea about others.
Lets assume I am an Australian working in Maastricht (Next you'll be telling me there are Irish working in Germany ) I think that I am relatively well paid - but it has its downside I am 18800kms from home, my grip on foreign languages is almost as bad as Atherton playing Warne's googly and to top it off it rains here 367* days of the year (*give or take a little) - but this is my choice.
I have been rated for 12 years - enroute, procedural, radar, tower, approach, oceanic and instructing - every part of it I have enjoyed - every part of it I knew exactly what I would be paid and roughly what each job entailed. If you can honestly tell that when you signed up no-one showed you how much you would be paid - or how promotions or your salary would increase then I really do apologise and think this is wrong. Since you joined I have no doubt that things have changed but that is what your union is for - to protect your rights and conditions. But come on we are all professionals - like the line from the movie "they bought there tickets they knew what they were getting into"
Ohh yeah I wonder what is worse a Clown or a Buffoon (check with Handsolo for me will you?).
Sorry I digress
5mb - you bet I will be there with bells on and will make the trip before the end of the year - I may have to leave my cape and cowl on though and I dont want any "you should have been here an hour ago" stories either.
The answer I think important is that of D) Yes, of course I do.
Let me get back to you in a few lines.
Meanwhile
250kts
-thanks for the suggestion of helping me find out my self worth - but I am quite happy with my current valuation.
fatcontroller
-Now before you give yourself a panic attack - I removed the post and apologised for doing exactly what you went and did - being prejudice.
if it was so good I'm sure you too would be working for the same employer as us - if you are qualified to do so of course.
Lets assume I am an Australian working in Maastricht (Next you'll be telling me there are Irish working in Germany
) I think that I am relatively well paid - but it has its downside I am 18800kms from home, my grip on foreign languages is almost as bad as Atherton playing Warne's googly and to top it off it rains here 367* days of the year (*give or take a little) - but this is my choice. I have been rated for 12 years - enroute, procedural, radar, tower, approach, oceanic and instructing - every part of it I have enjoyed - every part of it I knew exactly what I would be paid and roughly what each job entailed. If you can honestly tell that when you signed up no-one showed you how much you would be paid - or how promotions or your salary would increase then I really do apologise and think this is wrong. Since you joined I have no doubt that things have changed but that is what your union is for - to protect your rights and conditions. But come on we are all professionals - like the line from the movie "they bought there tickets they knew what they were getting into"
Ohh yeah I wonder what is worse a Clown or a Buffoon (check with Handsolo for me will you?).
Sorry I digress
5mb - you bet I will be there with bells on and will make the trip before the end of the year - I may have to leave my cape and cowl on though and I dont want any "you should have been here an hour ago" stories either.
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As a Danish ATCO student,you start out with the equivalent of 16000£ p.a. It stays that way untill you finish your education and checks out as a controller. Then I believe we start out around 32000£ p.a.
BUT! then we have to deal with the outrageous taxes here in Denmark... not much to take home then
BUT! then we have to deal with the outrageous taxes here in Denmark... not much to take home then
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Traffictraffic. Aha.. now we know. 12 years rated!!!!! You're just some kid. Get your knees brown a bit and come back in 20 years when you've got a bit of experience behind you!! But still come and say hello if you visit LTCC - I'm the grey-haired old git on Heathrow.
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Thanks for the reply TT-and your take home pay is?????????--why don't you just answer the bloody question or is it so much that you are embarassed.
There are lots of NATS staff who would readily come to Maastricht but there is an agreement between the 2 employers about poaching staff.
One of the two who did the move a couple of years ago described the workload as no more than moderate with no "finger nail biting" sessions to worry about. He's more than happy with his life.
It has always been a question that I have asked- that the en-route charges go into a pot but Maastricht appear to take out the biggest share-why is that ??
Looking forward to straight answer TT.
There are lots of NATS staff who would readily come to Maastricht but there is an agreement between the 2 employers about poaching staff.
One of the two who did the move a couple of years ago described the workload as no more than moderate with no "finger nail biting" sessions to worry about. He's more than happy with his life.
It has always been a question that I have asked- that the en-route charges go into a pot but Maastricht appear to take out the biggest share-why is that ??
Looking forward to straight answer TT.