Monarch in turbulence

[FANS]

It is public that Monarch are requiring investment, and it could be coming in the form of turn-around money.

This is going to mean change, and it's not going to be for the good.

[Landflap]

Decades ago I was attempting to find out who actually owned Monarch (companies House in London-that's how we did it in those days) but drew a blank. Assistant suggested that whenever the company needed money, some Gnome in Switzerland coughed up. Is it still the same ?

[FANS]

The gnome's not coughing now.

[LVL_CHG]

Galley FM has suggested they have pulled out of a EMA for next summer. Can anyone confirm this?

[speedrestriction]

Careful maxed-out, that could be construed as libel.

[JW411]

Well, I hope you all have bloody good lawyers.

[Capt Scribble]

Its a family that lives in Switzerland who has a lot of money and a rather Italian sounding name. Oh, and Monarch has a capital M, which of course stands for Mmmm..onarch!

[JW411]

Watch your back son; you are a marked man.

[tubby linton]

Sergio Mantegazza:
Sergio Mantegazza - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/profile/sergio-mantegazza/)

[brakedwell]

Monarch admits 'all areas' of business under review - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/11024649/Monarch-admits-all-areas-of-business-under-review.html)

[tubby linton]

There was a comparable article in the Sunday Times yesterday which was much more upbeat than the DTs scaremongering but it exists behind a paywall.

[turbine100]

Are the swiss owners looking at exiting or no longer investing their money in the company going forward? Hence looking for outside investment...

[Iver]

Monarch Airlines looking at dramatic overhaul - eTurboNews.com (http://www.eturbonews.com/48962/monarch-airlines-looking-dramatic-overhaul)




LONDON, England - Monarch is looking at a dramatic overhaul of its operations, potentially taking an axe to routes and retreating from bases, as several distressed investors, including Jon Moulton, circle the travel group.

New chairman Sir Roy McNulty and chief executive Andrew Swaffield are scrutinising every part of the company’s operations as part of a sweeping strategic review, which is expected to lead to significant changes in the ownership structure.

The group on Sunday confirmed that it is reviewing “all areas of the business from operations to ownership and financing” after The Sunday Telegraph revealed that a number of distressed and private equity investors, including venture capitalist Jon Moulton’s Better Capital, HIG Europe, Towerbrook and Indigo Capital, are considering injecting cash into the company, which is controlled by the Swiss billionaire Mantegazza family.

Monarch is understood to need as much as £60m of fresh capital, despite the Mantegazzas pumping £120m into the group since 2009.


Dean Street Advisers is leading the search for an external investor but the Mantegazzas have also appointed restructuring specialists from PwC, who are working on a rescue plan in case Monarch is unable to strike a deal to bring in fresh capital.

Monarch said in a statement: “The group confirms it is undergoing a strategic review under the leadership of new non-executive chairman Sir Roy McNulty and chief executive Andrew Swaffield. The review covers all areas of the business from operations to ownership and financing, with the objective of determining the optimum structure to realise the significant opportunity to build on the respected Monarch brand and distinctive offer to its customers in the budget airline market.”

[JB007]

The "Airliner World Readers" forum seem clued up on S15 released programme compared to this year! Look like LBA under threat and reduced MAN operation!

A great British airline, good luck to all!

[Capetonian]

have also appointed restructuring specialists from PwC, who are working on a rescue planCalling in 'consultants' of this type is generally the kiss of death for an airline. I've seen it with several.

I hope Monarch can find a way to survive, a good airline overall but they seem to have crew and/or a/c availability problems a lot of the time, affecting their reliability.

[maxed-out]

Carefull now JB007.

JW411 might get the hump with you too. He might even tell you to watch your back and that you're a marked man!

[TartinTon]

Monarch have had teams of consultants crawling over the airline for the last 3 years. Maybe that's where the money's gone!!

[Skyjob]

Some people in higher management with appropriate knowledge and experience saves a lot of £££/$$$/€€€

Usually appropriate insider knowledge is invaluable in such cases.
Saving can be made using knowledge of where saving are possible, not from a balance sheet seen by an accountant.

[JB007]

Withdrawal from EMA Announced (http://m.travelweekly.co.uk/Article.aspx?cat=news&id=49018)

[speedrestriction]

I can't see Monarch being able to compete with the low cost incumbents. They have neither the economy of scale nor the financial reserves of the two major UK players. I cannot see either of the to major low cost carriers being willing to cede territory or market share to Monarch. It sounds to me like a risky strategy.

[kotakota]

Monarch have had a great run . I wish Dan had had this sort of backing when we needed it . How many airlines in UK have come and gone since 1985 ?

[FANS]

There will be major changes at Monarch, and it won't be for the better for the (excellent) crew.

I wouldn't bet on it still being independent in 5 years time.

[Iver]

Not sure if this aspect of their strategic review was common knowledge yet. Also not sure how this might impact the "terms and endearment" or hiring:

Monarch Airlines to exit charter market in Spring 2015 - ch-aviation.com (http://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/30342-monarch-airlines-to-exit-charter-market-in-spring-2015)

Good luck to all!

[LNIDA]

I think 'going under' is very unlikely, my personal view is that the owners have had enough, i think an equity partner is unlikely and a trade buyer even less so given what are likely to be generous pension & conditions which would have to be respected.

I think a visit from the suits will recommend selling of the engineering arm, for which i suspect there will be a market, maybe also Cosmos,

Comparisons with Flybe's alleged revival don't add up, they are a public company that over stretched themselves with bases and aircraft orders, but operate in a totally different market, the question is what do Monarch have to offer that you can't get from the likes of Jet2, easy, Ryanair, Norwegian? its loyal customer base is old and not web literate

[Rushed Approach]

Yes, but that's where the disposable money is

Pensioner income growth outstrips inflation | The Actuary, official magazine of SIAS and The Actuarial Profession (http://www.theactuary.com/news/2014/07/pensioner-income-growth-outstrips-inflation/)

[LNIDA]

Try telling Granny that outside of London !! in any event they are more likely to book a package holiday rather than a DIY one and Monarch is chasing after the same market as the rest of the bucket & spade brigade

Hopefully the new management know what they are doing, but it beggars believe that they could spend 9 months debating over Boeing/Airbus/C series then announce an order for aircraft they can't finance and two weeks later announce they are closing EMA & possibly LBA to take on Ryanair & EasyJet and according to PPJN have just upped pilots salaries by above inflation increase.:confused::confused:

[Winnerhofer]

The question is why should a tight billionaire octogenerian give a monkey's about a crumbling airline?
Now, let me tell you something: ZB has been sold to F7.
Yes, you see the Swiss connection there?
Voilà!

[Rushed Approach]

LNIDA, you're obviously looking at a different PPJN Monarch page to the one I've just checked then, which still shows the 2013 pay scales. There will be no above RPI rise for pilots this year no matter what PPJN might say. You obviously have no idea about how this airline makes its money - the airline itself doesn't necessarily have to buy the jets!

Winerhofer, because he has done so for the past 46 years and the jets all have his initial on their tails.

[tubby linton]

This company has never made a large profit but then that was never the point. The basic premise has been that the family buy the aircraft and lease them to the airline. The airline operates them and pays a lease back to the owner. This lease amount has been paid continually long after the aircraft have been paid for. You do not become worth $5 bn without some clever business practice. This all worked well before the advent of low cost carriers and a family holiday company would buy the seats on the aircraft to keep them busy.
The company's financial affairs have always been a closely guarded secret but there are only three principal shareholders to answer to which is very unusual in this industry.
The events of recent years including the banking crisis has made financing the aircraft more difficult and the rise of low cost has also made it more difficult to fill the aircraft seats. I cannot imagine that the senior members of the family will allow the company which has made them phenomenally rich to fold but I worry about the younger generations who have always been in a family of billionaires and their commitment to the group. Perhaps they need to be taught the same lesson that Warren Buffet taught his three children when he disinherited them and they will have to earn their own money.

[RexBanner]

That's a myth. Buffet will be handing down plenty of money to his kids, just not the whole lot. He's said he wants them to have enough money that they feel they can do anything but not too much that they will do nothing. They're not going to starve and compared to us they will still be fabulously wealthy. Anyway back to the topic....

[Winnerhofer]

Monarch airline axes 1,000 jobs in attempt to lure saviour
MONARCH AIRLINES is to cut more than 1,000 jobs — about one-third of its staff — as part of a drastic overhaul to cut losses and woo new investors.
All charter and long-haul flights will be axed, and the aircraft fleet shrunk from 42 to 30.
The drastic plan has been drawn up by new chief executive Andrew Swaffield in an effort to restore the airline to profitability. Internal projections show the carrier is likely to lose about £60m this year.
The specialist American aviation advisory firm Seabury Capital is leading the hunt for new investors, with about a dozen financial players — private equity and other investment funds — in the frame.
One obstacle is Monarch’s pension black hole. A defined benefit scheme, closed to new members more than a decade ago, it still has a deficit of £158m. Talks have begun with trustees and the pensions regulator about a solution.
The 47-year-old airline is a stalwart of the British holiday scene, carrying 6m passengers a year to destinations in the Mediterranean.
It is headquartered at Luton airport and with its aircraft maintenance division and Cosmos tour-operator arm has 3,300 employees.
It is owned by Switzerland’s billionaire Mantegazza family.
The Mantegazzas, who have regularly injected cash in recent years to make good losses, have accountant PwC standing by to take charge if a new investor is not found. Swaffield was recruited from British Airways’ parent company IAG to run the airline in April.
He was promoted to chief executive of Monarch Group in July after the abrupt departure of executive chairman Iain Rawlinson.
Monarch declined to comment yesterday, but potential investors have been given an outline of Swaffield’s plan.
He will ditch Monarch’s historic “hybrid” model, which saw it mix charter flying — one-off flights for tour operators — with scheduled services.
Charter flights will end and the company will become a budget carrier operating only scheduled flights.
Large cost cuts, to bring the airline’s overheads in line with those of big rival easyJet, are to be announced in the next few months.
Last week the airline said it would shut its base at East Midlands airport, and the base at Leeds/Bradford is also under review.
Swaffield and chairman Sir Roy McNulty — the Northern Irish businessman who has chaired the Civil Aviation Authority — hope to find new investors by Christmas.
It is understood the Mantegazzas would be prepared to relinquish control if the right deal can be found.
The management are pursuing a “solvent” sale — they do not want to put the company into administration to ditch legacy costs, including the pension scheme.
Dean Street, a City investment banking boutique, is helping in the hunt for new funds, and KPMG, the accountant, has prepared an information pack for investors.
Industry experts say that, while the cost cuts are promising, Monarch will still struggle to compete against easyJet and Ryanair, the two titans of the low-cost airline world.

[RexBanner]

Good luck to everyone at Monarch. Went through something similar at Flybe last year and it's not pleasant.

[Winnerhofer]

There'll be an LCC cull.
EK,EY and QR are waiting in the wings and EY has already stolen the march.

[speedrestriction]

AlexanderDeMeerkat - you should have ended your post after the first sentence. Thinly disguised easyjet banner waving is not appropriate in the context of people losing their jobs - shame on you. I hope you never face redundancy in a job which your family depends upon the income - it is not a nice place to be and certainly isn't an issue to point score on. Perhaps you would consider editing your post to remove your glib dig and replace it with something more thoughtful and mature.

[macdo]

Whilst Meerkats comments lack tact, his observation is correct. I have witnessed several colleagues do the same, for all the right reasoning, over the last 24 months. What seemed a golden opportunity then is beginning to look like a poison chalice. Good luck to those at the bottom of the seniority list.

[Rushed Approach]

The vast majority of pilots that move to Monarch from easy are FlexiCrew F/Os. To my knowledge only a handful of pilots (if that) has ever moved from Monarch to easyJet.

The conclusion must surely be that, other than for FlexiCrew, each respective group within the two companies on permanent contracts must be reasonably happy with their lot? They are both good companies to work for.

By the way, despite the press continually getting this wrong, Monarch has been a mostly scheduled carrier for the last 10+ years and is simply completing the transition to fully scheduled flying. During that period it has competed very successfully with easy and Ryan on its core routes, and there is absolutely no reason why it cannot continue to do so in the future, particularly with the order for 30 new aircraft.

[captainbirdseye]

ADM, you just went down in my opinion. To -1.

[Facelookbovvered]

You imply in your response to LNIDA that the M family have made huge amounts of money by leasing aircraft to Monarch and thereby transferring profits from an operating airline in the UK to a leasing company in Switzerland, all perfectly legally, but surely the problem with that is you lose sight of what the business is about in much the same way that bmi became a slot sitter at LHR for Bishop's exit plan,rather than a focused airline.

Ditto the engineering at MAEL in exactly the same way that bmi used bmi engineering, in good times its a good way of moving money around, but in lean times incestuous relationships breed poor business decisions.

Given the time and money this can be turnaround, moving to a one size fleet is a good start and dumping long haul makes sense, they need to make the likes of BHX/LTN/MAN their home turf

[Rushed Approach]

I don't disagree with most of that, although would add LGW as the obvious omission from your list, albeit that competition there is, as ever, challenging.

[Yellow Sun]

but surely the problem with that is you lose sight of what the business is about in much the same way that bmi became a slot sitter at LHR for Bishop's exit plan,rather than a focused airline.

FLB, British Midland was always about Sir Michael's exit plan. Quite simply it was his train set and the strategy was to facilitate him going out the door with the largest amount possible. In that sense it was a very focussed airline!

[Facelookbovvered]

Yes add LGW but as you say with both easyJet & Norwegian there it will become increasingly difficult for them.

Yellow Sun

Agree 100% but alas bmi is history & a lot of jobs went down the drain, the irony is not lost on me that the new boss at Monarch is ex BA

[Cliff Secord]

Awful news for the Monarch staff. I hope it turns over for them. A great name in the industry. It does make you wonder where their model fits. Competing directly with the low cost monsters to similar pairs starting on a lower peg costs wise. Flybe have done very well to embrace their unique selling point and corner a little market in the UK. Monarch don't have that. I really do hope they can pull it off, I'd rather fly with them than certain other airlines. All the best for all at the company.

[Coffin Corner]

AdM, then maybe you should look closer to home as to why these pilots felt they had to leave in the first place. Your hindsight is second to none.

[WHYEYEMAN]

To be fair to AdM, he has been warning of the foolishness of leaving a large successful organisation for a smaller operator with less secure financials ever since some pilots first threatened to jump ship several years ago. Many cadet pilots felt hard done by and wanted to stick two fingers up at the orange flexi-crew machine. This was at a time when the flexi crew situation had become particularly dire and now things have thankfully improved. Clearly no one is delighting in other's misfortune but on this occasion, he is entitled to a gentle 'I told you so'.

[JStone]

Here it is..

BBC News - Monarch airlines plans to slash workforce by up to 30% (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28833343)

[Callsign Kilo]

ADM isn't entitled to display the wonderful benefit of hindsight. The guys who left EZY did so because their terms were shocking. ADM sits from the comfortable position of a left seat training job where it's easy to scoff at those getting shafted by his own airline. MON offered guys good terms on permanent contracts as they did to a number of ex BMI Baby guys who also witnessed their jobs go down the toilet pan.

Good luck to Monarch and all those within it. A far superior airline than the likes of Easyjet will ever be.

[INeedTheFull90]

I don't see them as being any worse mor superior compared to ezy. Here both ULCCs. They both have a basic service. The onboard experience is almost identical. And MON charge you for using online check in (ie they make you choose a seat at £6.50). With easyJet it is free and straight into my iphone ready to go. It's never that easy with MON. Legroom ain't great on either, nut at least with EZY I'm not subjected to the pleather seating. Cabin crew good and bad with both. But one event sticks out with MON. I'll fly them if they're the cheapest as they don't have a USP to attract me and that's your problem. People see the MON/U2/FR product as the same and they'll buy a ticket on the cheapest flight. MON does not have the cost base of U2/FR and that is another problem. Their fares will always need to be higher than the others to generate a profit.

Good luck to all at MON. It can't be a nice experience to go through.

[Bernoulli]

90, do you have big fat fingers and were you typing on your iPhone?

Good luck to Monarch. I'd pay extra just to avoid O'Leary's aggressive organisation. Same goes for the Orange behemoth too.

[FANS]

And so, the PR bandwagon has started with talk of 1,000 job losses that will be whittled down, and make the employees ever so grateful it wasn't actually 1,000.

If the Board do not disclose further information to their employees, I suggest you ask for a copy of the Information Memorandum that has been sent out to potential investors.

[Laarbruch72]

A far superior airline than the likes of Easyjet will ever be.

I have to ask, what criteria are you basing that on? I work for a competitor airline to Monarch and easyJet, I'm always back and forth to the likes of Turkey to work, often using one of these carriers. From a passenger's point of view I genuinely can't see one category in which Monarch are "far superior". I can't even fit in the seats on the Monarch 757 (and I'm only 6 foot). EasyJet get an awful lot right, I honestly can't say I've seen anything approaching the same quality and consistency of product from Monarch.

[Nightstop]

Monarch's presentation of it's service is stuck in the '70's era of air travel. I recently flew on a scheduled service of theirs to a Spanish destination. Despite maybe 50% of the passengers being Spanish not a single announcement either at the UK Gate or on board was made in Spanish. When I enquired as to why, the answer was that it was company policy to only make announcements in English. Not good enough.
I agree the payment of a fee to check in online is a cheek, MON should be offering a discount to do this as it reduces their costs.
The major problem for employees past & present is their underfunded pension fund, good luck with that.

[INeedTheFull90]

Certainly on U2/FR languages are made in English and the main language of the destination being flown to.

The two airlines also have a much more comprehensive route network and better frequencies than MON. Can anyone actually tell me what makes Monarch so special?

U2/FR have been running as viable, efficient and profitable airlines for many years now. Monarch has not, in the full knowledge that if the going gets tough the M family will just write a blank cheque. The party is now well and truly over and they're up the creek without a paddle if they don't get investors in.

I've heard it said a good few times that Monarch will never go under because of their M family ties. Without the M family to bail them out, who knows what the future holds. But good luck to all.

[Three Lions]

It is awful to see the rise of the low cost operators and the demise of decent companies.

Even those in the "blue and orange bubble" surely have the basic intelligence to see the damaging effect their companies are having on the industry as a whole

Good luck to the Monarch guys and gals affected by this dreadful news.

[INeedTheFull90]

With respect Monarch have been in business for a lot longer than FR and U2. They also had access to funding and could have got any fleet they wanted. They lacked the vision of the big 2, saw how successful they were and did very little about it. Now almost 20 years on they've decided they want a piece of the action.

The big two provide lots of reasonably secure jobs for which many are grateful for. Those who've ploughed £100,000 in to training certainly do. Out of work with £1000 a month loan repayments in one scary place to be in I should imagine.

[quartic]

Monarch was the airline of choice for many years for those pilots looking for a full career with a balanced life, fair renumeration and of course the excellent pension. The standards within the airline were equal to any and better than most. The news that they may be in a bit of bother will come as a hammer blow, whether still working within the airline or retired. Of course they can continue but for most junior captains and below there can now be only one sensible choice, and as difficult as it is they must seek alternative employment if they wish a career. A shrinking airline is no place to be; ask the ex MyTravel/Thomas Cook pilots caught in the same position.

Monarch sell a lot of seats to small travel companies, many of which are struggling: they operate from expensive but poor quality airports (although they have sensibly got rid of the worst): as they shrink they will offer less route choices and they do not have the established schedule customer base of the likes of ezy. But most telling, they have ordered the wrong aircraft. I do not know anybody who prefers Ryan to Ezy. The passengers may not know which aircraft they are flying in but they do know which is most comfortable with wider seats, easier overhead stowage and better ambience. To order an aircraft with a fuselage designed not long after the end of the Second World War seems foolish. Airbus now even consider the A320 is becoming too narrow for modern day figures! The737 will be the MD80 of the twenty twenties, loved but no longer wanted. (Although come to think of it the 737 would be great configured like the MD - 3/2!)

Anyway, drastic action may hopefully see Monarch continue as a niche airline but the days of the pilots choice must be gone. The great shame is that in their day they did treat pilots decently and were rewarded with highly professional and competent crews who got the job done. They deserve better.

[Callsign Kilo]

Laarbruch72

I base my assertion relating to the section of pprune that this thread was started - Terms & Endearment. It's not from a SLF perspective.

Monarch is one of the few airlines in the UK worthy of the title of 'career airline.' It has always presented itself as an organisation that looks after it's employees. Unfortunately it appears that many may indeed fall fowl of the sword and invariably, in the long term, Monarch's envied terms and conditions may be a thing of the past as it trims back in order to become profitable. We are already seeing this with British Airways, an already profitable entity within IAG.

[FlyingTinCans]

quartic, Monarch have ordered the 737 MAX, which will have the 'sky interior' (the same as the 787, which has proven to be a success with PAX). Even 737NG's have the option of having the sky interior installed, RYR just don't buy that option.
Maybe you should book a ticket on a Norwegian or Thomson 737 and have a look for yourself before you accuse Monarch management of ordering the wrong airplane, based on your perceived views of its Cabin.

they do know which is most comfortable with wider seats, easier overhead stowage and better ambience

Seat width between the two types is almost identical, the overhead bins on the 'sky interior' are bigger, easier to use and create a wider cabin to stand up in, and mood lighting comes as standard.

Back on topic,
Monarch was a career airline 10 years ago, its recent history has shown nothing but poor results despite continued investment. Its latest expansion was a 'go big or go home' move, and many pilots recognised that and didn't apply for that very reason.
It seems the gamble they took is not going to pay off, Monarch is actively positioning itself as a small scheduled airline, and that model has proven time and time again not to work in modern aviation. I wish everyone at Monarch all the best, it was an airline I always wanted to fly for, it may continue to plod along for another 5 years however I think the best outcome now will be a merger. But realistically that is also unlikely.

[FANS]

Monarch will be a tough place going forwards.

It's management have gone to a "don't let a good crisis go to waste" training school.

Talk of shedding 1/3 of jobs is extreme, even if just a game.

Competing with the loco's - Tesco tried this recently....

[brakedwell]

I feel very sorry for all the loyal staff at Monarch, who are entering the "shall I hang on and hope or jump now before the market is swamped with unemployed colleagues" phase. At least the demise of Air Europe was unexpected and sudden.

[INeedTheFull90]

There aren't many places to go, unless they go off to the Middle East.

[ManUtd1999]

Did MON not increase their fleet size a couple of years back to increase economies of scale? What's changed now to make fewer aircraft the way forward?

Looking at it from the outside it's hard to see a market for them though. EZY/FR have the low cost market sown up. Jet2 are dominant in the north with a package holiday/low cost airline combi, TOM/TCX have a large presence in the charter business. At some of their main bases, MON face huge competition:

EZY/Norweigian/BA from LGW
EZY from LTN
EZY/Jet2 from MAN
Jet2 from LBA (if they stay there)

Only BHX offers some sort of chance, with no low cost carrier based there (yet). It's hard to see a clear differentiation and while most people would probably instinctively prefer to travel MON v EZY/FR, the actual product isn't any better and doesn't justify higher prices.

Good luck to everyone involved with the company

[FANS]

Monarch does not have a future that's attractive, and its airline business will ultimately be bought for a song or there'll be a form of pre-pack.

It's tried quite a bit recently, but the question is where do you go?

[LNIDA]

Cabin interior

I recently flew back into LGW after we landed an Easyjet Capt came on to the flight deck to say he thought the sky interior fitted to our 737 was a huge improvement over the interior on the easyjet airbus, having said that he pointed out that the flight deck was from the ark !!:sad::sad:

Pensions will be problematic, even if the (non UK) owners offer to underwrite the deficit the regulator will not allow them to do post sale and will require the money to be paid into the PPF scheme, in most cases this means an haircut for those who have yet to draw their pensions, blame one Gordon Brown for the destruction of the final salary pension scheme.

[Ethiopia]

Monarch Airlines to cut workforce (http://aviationtribune.com/airlines/europe/item/1393-monarch-airlines-to-cut-workforce)

[Mr Angry from Purley]

MON has a good fan base and one suspects a lot of good slots so anyone think an offer might come?:\:\

[waco]

Tea - 1- Go airlines ?

[BARKINGMAD]

"Norn lron Businessman" and ex IAG man at the top?!

My heart sank on reading that!

[Skyjob]

ManUtd1999
Only BHX offers some sort of chance, with no low cost carrier based there (yet).
Ryanair has had a 4 aircraft BHX base since 2008...
If the airport cooperated the idea was (is?) a large Midlands base there. As we all know after this date Ryanair stopped taking deliveries of new aircraft, but these are set to resume imminently.
With Monarch possibly in trouble, maybe this is an added incentive for them, they already fly to several Monarch destinations from BHX: ALC, BCN, FAO, FUE, LPA, IBZ, ACE, PMI, AGP & TFS. Further more MON destinations within the existing Ryanair network are not (yet) flown from BHX...

[Facelookbovvered]

I would imagine that BHX would not been keen on having the bulk of their holiday traffic in the hands of one airline, especially Ryanair, it may come to that of course, i think Jet2 would be very cautious about moves into BHX for fear of route dilution, in much the way that bmibaby was.

I would have thought it was more up easyJet's street and Norwegian have shown no signs of basing or route interest North of LGW beyond some Manchester/Edinburgh services from Scandinavia

I think we are for now approaching the point of too many seats chasing too few bums or bums with not enough money to take the number of holidays they perhaps did a few years back?

[Skyjob]

Thomas Cook and Thomson are presented in the airport as well...
Hardly like Ryanair would be the only operator there catering for the needs of holiday traffic.

Further more:
easyJet flies to BHX from Belfast.
Germanwings from Hamburg and Tegel.
Turkish also comes in daily and advertises a lot inside the terminal.
None of the above cater for any holiday traffic at present in significant numbers.

If it would be up easyJet's street, would they not already have expanded into BHX in recent years when Ryanair operates full flights from there?
Rumours about Norwegian are always around.

[halfofrho]

easyJet flies to BHX from Belfast.

We also fly a seasonal winter route to GNB, and I think the Swiss guys do a route from GVA although I'm not sure if that's seasonal as well.

[LNIDA]

Norwegian

I have not heard BHX mentioned for/by Norwegian either as a base or routes, in fact there has been no serious new base chatter at all, i think the last new base chatter was around 12 months ago about the now opened BCN/MAD bases.

Some on/off mutterings about Berlin/Rome, i think the latter is now very unlikely with the Easy/FR/Vueling bun fight

If you view EMA & BHX as one airport, at least from a customer perspective then it seems most needs are covered

[SCINHead]

Since this is a rumour network; plenty of peeps on the ground at MAN today who were under the impression that EZY could be weighing up MON as an acquisition. Now that would be interesting.

[Bail out]

Wishful thinking I would think ...

[Rushed Approach]

On the face of it EZY taking over MON would make sense. easy are on pretty much all of Mons scheduled routes so would immediately increase their market share and take all their slots, and gain an instant big presence in BHX. From next summer Mon fleet is only A320/A321 so no issues with crew compatibility/retraining.

The Mon DB pension scheme liability would be an issue for easy. However, if the Mon turnaround works and Mon maintains/increases market share then easy would have to engage in a price war to squash Mon which together with the lost extra profit from the extra market share from buying in now may cost more than the scheme contributions (drip fed over many years) would. If Mon is later floated for a big investor profit easy may regret not buying in cheap now. Of course, if the turnaround doesn't work they'll pick off the remains for free, but with competition from other airlines that won't be as big a piece of the pie.

So I guess it comes down to how likely easy think the Mon turnaround will work.

[Superpilot]

How about NAS? Perfectly poised to take on EZY if they did. Though taking on a unionised airline would not be one of Kjos's favourite past times!

[LNIDA]

An interesting concept and of course Easy did this with GO a few years back, but there would still be a lot of redundancies in back & front office staff, management and the pension problem, could any of the players be interested?

Ryanair, very unlikely, wrong fleet and adding 6-8m pax is small beer for them

Easyjet, as you say possible, same fleet,previous form, capitalise on LGW position

Norwegian, wrong timing, fleet wouldn't be an issue with both Airbus and Max on order and would at a stroke establish them as a serious player in the UK, could they afford it?

Vueing IAG funded, so money not a problem, same fleet

Jet2, would be a huge leap and MAEL could transform their maintenance, probably too big for them management wise

The pension problem is the same for all, but that can be sorted by the owners, but the regulator will not allow a drip feed from a non UK company and will force the fund into the PPF

Turn around is of course possible, but dealing with the level of reduction reported in the press* will take serious management time and the loss of staff morale would come at a time when they are trying to improve the customer experience.

Having twice faced this situation i would not wish it on anybody and a swift easyJet takeover would be best for most of Monarch's employee's

[Brigantee]

A fair bit of EZY base maintenance is carried out by monarch and they were in discussion for this to be extended to line maintenance so perhaps the engineering side is of interest to them

[ManUtd1999]

Any takeover is unlikely IMO but EZY would be clear favourites. Vueling is an interesting shout. It'd get them established in the UK and there's fleet commonality. They are much more low-cost though and IAG haven't shown much interest in making changes at Vueling. They seem happy enough to let them get on with it whilst IAG focus on IB/BA.

[Bail out]

Purchasing Monarch is nothing like buying GO. Go was a serious threat to the easyjet brand and so eventually it's market share. On paper the opportunity was probably to good to miss especially given who was funding the whole thing.

If the M's have decided not to invest another sum of money again like they have done twice in the last 7 years then why would they fill the massive pension deficit of £140 - £150 million estimate if even to get a free sale?

With regards to IAG who owns Vueling with a lower cost base than Easyjet, why would they even bother far easy to jump into the hole that's left behind.

There are easier and far cheaper options.

[Rushed Approach]

easy wouldn't need to fill the pension deficit as a one off. They would simply carry on paying the contributions, just like IAG did and are doing with the BA DB scheme which also has a (much bigger) deficit. They are small beer for easy compared to the potential profits from the increased market shares from 4 or 5 major UK airports.

[Rushed Approach]

In reply to a now deleted post that asked "Who would pay off the deficit then?":

Whoever buys Mon potentially would, unless the Pension Regulator approves a Regulated Apportionment Agreement as per BMI/Lufthansa and the scheme gets dumped into the PPF.

DB Pension "deficits" are theoretical numbers that are almost never actually paid, unless a scheme is wound up and the benefits are bought in the open market. They are required to be shown in company accounts but in reality can be repaid over decades, and if gilt yields and inflation increase they are reduced hugely or eliminated. The bigger the size of the entity buying, the less this is an issue (as per BA/IAG) as the debt can be paid off gradually.

Interestingly the UK government doesn't have to abide by such trivial accounting rules and put money aside for the state pension scheme which is effectively its own DB scheme (i.e. a guaranteed amount uplifted by inflation with no dependence on investment returns) - it simply pays the money out of tax/NI received. :hmm:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If you said ezy was looking at buying Aer Lingus I would be greatly surprised.

If you said Monarch I'd look askance, hide the knives and change the subject.

[Rushed Approach]

Nobody has suggested easy are looking to buy Aer Lingus have they?

What do you mean by "hide the knives"?

I'm not aware of any animosity between the two airlines. I would have thought it was more like mutual respect.

[INeedTheFull90]

The problem is if any bases were over crewed then those displaced would cause base transfer lists to be frozen and will be given priority on regional bases when some of have been waiting years to get home will be stuck away for a long time to come. For purely selfish reasons I hope we do not get involved with MON. Besides it would be odd to see those who left us for the green grass of MON return to the big easy.

I could see some people unhappy about the pension situation if they had a FSP when the rest of us have a pretty crappy deal but those would be in the minority. If any widespread animosity occurred it would be if the share price were damaged by it. With the shares people are worryingly short sighted. They would not see the long term potential benefits of a merger and they will only see the headlines and the initial share price drop which they will not forget.

[Yellow Sun]

Rushed Approach

If you said Monarch I'd look askance, hide the knives and change the subject.

"What the captain really means (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-206962.html)" is that he has realised that he in the company of someone who is quite likely given to irrational acts:E

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I'd hide the knives because I'd suspect mental instability.

With over £600m in cash in the bank and a 70% owned outright fleet there's always speculation about easyJet taking over small loss-making airlines like Lingus and Monarch.

It never happens. It will never happen.

Its an expensive and complicated way of doing something it can do cheaply and simply.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Well, you say it never happens, and then you look at TEA Switz and Go, and in RYR's case Buzz and now Cypriate. It does happen if the bosses want it to, and seemingly regardless of the logic. Buying a company for hundreds of millions when you could wait a little longer and buy it for a dollar seems odd, but we mere mortals are rarely privvy to the details discussed behind locked, and often padded, doors.

I'm really hoping that things turn around quickly. Mon always appeared to be a company that had an amount of respect for its crew, at least it looks that way from the outside. It'd be a shame if it's only the gutter airlines that thrive.

[Rushed Approach]

WWW, you may well be correct, but please indulge me as to how it can be done "cheaply and simply"?

Mon could transform most elements of its cost base into easy's (or into less than easy's) very quickly, at the flick of a switch in the current situation. Other elements might take a bit longer, but while Mon remains easy are losing the profits on the market share of the routes it retains, which means that any delay is in effect costing easy money.

[Jet A1]

They did buy GB Airways though...Similar, albeit smaller, deal than MON.

[Rushed Approach]

Same aircraft types exactly though as with GB - and easy having to use extra capacity this summer on B757s - a few A321s could easily be used initially (as per GB) and then phased out as their existing 319/320 orders catch up.

[INeedTheFull90]

Well the simplest and cheapest way would be to let them go under and mop up the aftermath with very little of the costs. Buy the jets, hire some of staff on EZ contracts and operate the new routes or increase frequencies on the current routes. There's no way they can morph into a ULCC like EZ or FR with a lower cost base as the crew costs are much higher, they don't have the economies of scale and haven't quite achieved critical mass and they don't have the brand awareness. They can transform into an ULCC but the cost base will never be as low as EZ/FR.

[pitotheat]

Notwithstanding the stress and concern this uncertainty is causing Monarch employees I fail to see what the advantages would be for easy. The slots they would pick up at LGW are OK but after acquiring Flybe slots a year ago and the pressure on yields at the moment is it what the company need? As for market share at regional airports that can be acquired without the complication of a takeover. The only plus point is there is an awful lot of money sloshing around hangar 89 and the CEO hasn't ticked the corporate M&A box on her CV.
Lastly all has been very quiet from Stelios over the last couple of years. He is getting a nice check every year and the company have elected a cautious approach to expansion. In return he has remained quiet and the markets are looking at us as a proper grown up company. If we toss a few hundred million away to takeover M what do you think his reactions will be?

[Rushed Approach]

I would suggest that Mon can transform into anything it wants to in the current situation, and can easily compete even more successfully with easy than it does now, with lower crew costs than easy if required.

You say that market share can be acquired at regional? airports (i.e. at MAN, LGW, LTN and BHX in Mon's case) without the complications of a takeover but exactly how is that achieved with the competitor still there and without a price war that will cost?

As I say easy might rue the day it didn't take the opportunity. Of course if easy's policy is simply to be "grown up" and to consolidate then there is even more chance the Mon turnaround will succeed I suppose? I see that easy still has the same 200 aircraft it had three years ago so maybe the "consolidation" view is correct?

You pays your money and takes your choice ....

[Coupled_To_Me]

taking over small loss-making airlines like Lingus and Monarch.


Off topic, but EI has been profitable for the past few years. Operating profit of 61.1 million in 2013 and forecast to at least match that in 2014. Gross cash of 897.4 million. These figures are helped by the relatively large number of regional UK passengers being routed through DUB to connect to North American services. Not something that would complement easyJet.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Rushed Approach WWW, you may well be correct, but please indulge me as to how it can be done "cheaply and simply"?

Mon could transform most elements of its cost base into easy's (or into less than easy's) very quickly, at the flick of a switch in the current situation. Other elements might take a bit longer, but while Mon remains easy are losing the profits on the market share of the routes it retains, which means that any delay is in effect costing easy money.


Easy. Ring ring, hello Airbus, tack ten more aeroplanes onto our massive order of buy one get one free.


Airbus. OK.


Easy. Ring Ring, hello CTC or OATS can i have twenty new first officers please delivered on Wednesday?

The School : yes here's ten dozen to choose from.



Cheap. Simple.

[brizzol]

One thing is for sure, the Monarch pension fund is doomed. Look at BMI.... one multi billion dollar business (Lufty) can sell a small(ish) airline (BMI) to another multi billion dollar business (IAG) and dump the pension fund into the PPF in the process.... then surely the same could ( will, in my opinion ) happen to Monarch.
All those long serving Monarch pilots who are expecting final salary pensions of 50/60/70+k will be most affected by the cap of 36k (ish. I can't remember the actual figure.)
I'm not trying to worry you guys, but it is a real possibility.
Am I bitter about the BMI situation? Yes. Very.

[Xulu]

Rushed Approach -

No Monarch cannot easily transform into an ULCC.

And no they are clearly not already successfully competing with easyJet, hence the massive downsizing and restructuring.

And no easyJet does not have the same 200 aircraft it had 3 years ago.

Rather than buy the whole thing out, warts and all, I suspect easyJet will cherry pick the best slots/routes that become available in a controlled manner. They will use the very cheap A320 on order, and a ready supply of flexi cadets both of which can be tailored to specific numbers.

I cannot see an advantage to taking on all those expensive crew and ageing aircraft all at once - it's just a giant headache. What would easyJet do with all your management, ops, hr etc? Go through an expensive redundancy programme?

Amidst worries of overcapacity in the market, it is a good thing for easyJet to see it reduced so they can increase yields rather than retaining that extra capacity for the sake of it. Especially as Monarch shares most it's routes with easyJet.


Talk is of Wizz Uk!

[Brenoch]

I'd like to pause all speculation for a moment and thank all my former co-workers at Monarch Airlines for what was quite possibly "the time of my life". Best of luck and thanks for everything. (I left in 2004)

[INeedTheFull90]

The office staff will just be taken on and given fancy new titles with the Monarch office block becoming Hangar 89A. Office staff never suffer at EZY. Cuts only hit the front liners so the Luton HQ will become even more bloated with bonus chasers, career boys and girls and MBAs.

[LNIDA]

FR are an ULCC

EZ are an LCC

Monarch will struggle to reduce its cost base, old habits, not thinking the unthinkable and all that, I'm told Monarch are great to work for, excellent T&C'S all manner of additional payments for doing what many in Easy/Ryan/Norge do for free, what do you mean i have work Tuesdays??

So yes great for staff, customers is another matter, dispatch performance is shocking at LGW, uncomfortable seats, next to no leg room depending on fleet and some very sour faced cabin crew, no wonder they are all being sent for customer facing retraining.

I personally doubt you'll ever see a new Boeing in Monarch colours, their biggest problems is their owners who move at about the same speed as a Swiss glacier and most of those are retreating

[FANS]

I think debate on the DB pension scheme is far fetched at this stage.

EZY might be interested for £1 + taking on the liabilities. That said, it's a huge amount of hassle especially if T&Cs are above market.

[mad_jock]

Monarch pilot jobs, payscales and entry requirements. (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Monarch)

easyJet (UK Contract pilot jobs, payscales and entry requirements. (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/easyJet_(UK_Contract))


Combining those 2 T&C's is going to be fun.

And if the stuff posted in the wannbies is correct they have 30-40 year 1-3 cadets one loan repayment deals as well.

[spottilludrop]

Amazing the tosh posted here, Where on earth is there any evidence in the real world EZY are remotely interested in MON

[macdo]

to use 'management speak' where are the synergies?

Non-existent to my educated eye.

I wish the staff the very best of luck.

[Captain Spam Can]

Your right mad jock, monarch skippers up to year 13 are going to have a pay rise on the easy scale, that's basic without yearly loyalty bonus pay of 15% after that I think it's much of a likeness. The only t's and c's I can see which is better at MON is the pension which is double contributions. But I guess throw in the fact your not waiting over 10years for a command bumps up the overall package at easy. I think the only place to be in the UK (in terms of good employer and safe job) is easy or BA, and if you have the seniority TOM looks good.

Back to topic, I can't see easy buying MON, there just isn't the threat with a fleet of 30 aircraft to take the slots, after all easy just bought lots of LGW slots from flybe.

Sad to see what is happening to Monarch, it looked like a good employer and the fact were seeing so many airlines merging isn't great, I used to watching all the different charters etc flying in as a kid. Best of luck to the staff:ok:

[JB007]

Some industry press news, nothing new but doesn't mention easyJet as a potential!


Monarch Airlines (ZB, London Luton) is set to cut over 1'000 jobs while parking twelve of its 42 aircraft as further details of CEO Andrew Swaffield's radical restructuring plan are revealed.

Following on from last week's announcement that the airline will abandon its East Midlandsoperations effective April next year, Monarch has now alluded to ditching long-haul charter flights to India, the United States and the Caribbean in favour of a more regionally-oriented, budget carrier-esque business model. In tandem with its transformation from a charter carrier into a scheduled operator, Monarch will also renew its fleet of Airbus Industrie (AIB, Toulouse Blagnac) aircraft with a pending order for thirty B737 MAX 8s with Boeing (BOE, Chicago O'Hare).

Management is also in talks with the airline's pension fund trustees concerning a GBP158million (USD263.79million) deficit.

Britain's Sunday Times paper reports Monarch's billionaire owner, Sergio Mantegazza, has expressed a desire to offload a controlling stake under the right conditions and for the right price. US airline turnaround specialists, Seabury, are leading the hunt for new investors with Better Capital, HIG Europe, Towerbrook and Indigo LLC currently being courted. Monarch's board has reportedly approached Mantegazza for a GBP60million (USD102.2million) cash injection linked to the carrier's latest fleet renewal plan.

Overall, Monarch hopes the restructuring programme will render the airline appealing enough to land an investor before the end of the year.

Competitor Ryanair (FR, Dublin Int'l) has meanwhile announced to fill one of the gaps left by Monarch at East Midlands by launching a new twice weekly B737-800 service from the airport to Malta from summer 2015 and by adding additional frequencies to existing routes on which it is competing with Monarch now from the airport.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Overall, Monarch hopes the restructuring programme will render the airline appealing enough to land an investor before the end of the year.


I struggle to see why or how.

I want MON to succeed. Its rampant recruitment of EZY FO's a few years ago helped enormously in securing a better contract for EZY New Entrant FO's. A monoculture of Legacy and/or LCC's does no commercial pilot any long term good.

If they had gone the other way, ordered Dreamliners or 350XWB's and said they were going to be a niche player operating maverick routes and ad hoc charters then I'd buy that. Being just another white goods supplier of tickets to Alicante on $3 margins just seems dumb.

No offense intended. Just an honest opinion.

[FANS]

Monarch going head to head with the loco's is delaying the inevitable.

There is no way that will succeed. Is the former Tesco CEO advising Monarch?!

Monarch should sell to trade now, whilst it still has time.

[Skyjob]

I would agree with FANS, the market for LOCO's is rather saturated.
There is a niche market available for operators like Monarch, but the LOCO route is not viable longterm.

[Superpilot]

Anyone have any ideas what drove Monarch's decision to abandon the charter market altogether? Are they struggling to compete with the array of cheap European charter carriers now operating out of the UK?

[Nearly Man]

It was the mighty Jet2.com that did it :}

[Bail out]

Apparently 205 pilots redundancies.

Sad times.

[LNIDA]

Spot on WWW

With a planned fleet of just 30 aircraft in 2018-2022 there is no economy of scale in terms of doing airport deals/handling or aircraft orders.

They offer no unique selling point, simply not being Ryanair isn't enough anymore.

A quick look at Skytrax airline quality feed back shows they still have a lot of work to do on the delay side of things and redundancies won't help the customer experience

[Iver]

Bail Out,


Where did you get that 205 number? How soon? What article?


No doubt the Gulf carriers will be holding special interviews in the UK soon.

[Bail out]

Horses mouth.

Had a few mates on the phone discussing options this evening.

205 pilots.

400 cabin crew

and some engineers.

Gutted for lots of great friends and professionals.

[StopStart]

Sad news if that's the case. Have heard mutterings that Jet2 might be looking to take some of them on though.

[JB007]

205 pilots/400 cabin crew doesn't equate to 12 aircraft! I hope an internal deal can be done and the management starting figure is just T&C negotiation.

Such a shame...good luck guys.

[Facelookbovvered]

205 might be right, long haul will have a far higher crew ratio than short haul, will be interesting to see if the long haul pilots get retrained due seniority or will their place of work be made redundant, the latter is probably legal

[no sponsor]

Awful news. Truly sorry to hear of the massive number of potential redundancies. I've been there myself. Unfortunately, for experienced F/Os there is very little hope of work in the UK - experience in the RHS means nothing these days.

[go around flaps15]

I can also confirm what previous posters have said regarding imminent redundancies. I've had a few mates at Monarch on the phone over the last few days. Not good news.

Very very sad.

[More lookout]

Very sad news for all, been there got the t shirt and it's not great. I hope those affected end up ok.

As an aside it will be of significance to all as to how the criteria for redundancy is set. In particular if seniority is bypassed for type and base.

Safe flying Monarch crews.

[Old King Coal]

This news about Monarch seemingly has many of the same elements that I witnessed (from within) just prior to the demise of Air Europe (UK) in March 1991.

If I was working at Monarch today, and they offered me a full redundancy / severance package, I'd take it. Much better that than to get $0.02's worth of f'all later on, i.e. when they go bust (all as happened at AE).

See also: Air Europe - Causes of it's collapse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Europe#Causes_of_collapse)

[Brian Fantana]

The LH crew don't just do LH flying they do mixed fleet flying, they are current on 320/1/330 no need for retraining.

[Facelookbovvered]

Thats good news then! what about the 757 pilots?

[SCANDIC]

I would think that they either go to a320 or a321 or find another airline that operates 757's. They'll be missed a lot when they go. I hope Fed Ex have bought them but i have a feeling they might get chopped up.

[brakedwell]

They are type rated for Jet 2.

[Iver]

Isn't Thomson also hiring 757 rated pilots?

[kick the tires]

Flightglobal Jobs (http://view.e.flightglobal.com/?j=fec61d717460037e&m=fe961271716505797d&ls=fe4f1d797c670779761c&l=ff5f1d7577&s=fe5e10797760007b7114&jb=ffcb10&ju=fe501677766c0c747613&&r=0)

[Abacus]

Really sad news, especially for an airline that has remained independent for over 45 years. I do hope they can find a way to weather this particular storm.
Just a thought, with so many pilots who have retired over the years, how do they stand re their pensions if the company either cease flying or are taken over?

[kaikohe76]

I still think, possibly thru rose tinted specs, that, maintaining a level of service be it only slightly above the other low cost operators, may attract the pax numbers Monarch could do with. I do think, a bare knuckle slog out with Easy, Ryan Air etc, is going to be very difficult indeed at best. Monarch always had & I think, still has a reputation, for that level of service which is above many other similar airlines & surely that should count for something.
Yes I have some interest in Monarch, it certainly had in my day, extremely proud, loyal & highly professional staff in all departments & this lead to very many happy & satisfied pax & other clients. Times do move on & it,s not easy out there, but with the right, honest, direct & honourable approach, I contend, Monarch will still be here in years to come.

[jetglo]

Unfortunately, it seems to be on a par with the demise of GB. A good product, good service, well liked and well sold, but the power of the perceived 'low cost' airlines deprives the customers of real choice with inevitable consequences.
Having been in the same situation, I wish the crews and staff well.

[ETOPS]

Just seen a copy of the new terms to be imposed on the remaining flight crew. Shockingly severe reductions in terms and conditions...

And no I'm not going to post them as it's technically none of my business and no doubt a serving pilot will if they feel justified.

[INeedTheFull90]

Shockingly severe reductions in terms of the current Ts and Cs or compared to the rest of the industry? Are they below the market averages?

[FANS]

Change of T&Cs to existing workforce is serious, and should help demotivate.

But if you're going to compete with the loco's you've got to.

[esscee]

What did people expect when one of the IAG hatchet men was put in post.
Mon have had too many changes at the top over the last 4 1/2 years.
Shame for the workers who have had to suffer, "lions led by donkeys".

[kaikohe76]

I have just seen a rather flashy TV advert for 'Virgin Holidays' (I assume IT) to Florida. If they can continue to offer this service, as Monarch did with considerable success for quite a number of years, could Monarch not keep at least a toe hold here? I am not a business expert by any means, but surely, there are already, more than enough ultra lot cost operators, all slugging it out between themselves.

[Artie Fufkin]

Just seen a copy of the new terms to be imposed on the remaining flight crew. Shockingly severe reductions in terms and conditions...

As sad and unpalatable as this is, management obviously have to knock the business into some sort of shape appealing to a potential buyer, the "contingency plan" with PWC doesn't bear thinking about.

[LNIDA]

Looks like they are not going to waste anytime in making changes, a friend who works for Monarch informs me that the consultancy period will be just 45day, so by mid October redundancy notices will be going out just in time for xmas

Of course this is neither deliberate or personal, more a factor of taking cost out before winter, but it hurst just the same.

If nothing else at least it shows they are serious about adjusting the cost base, i bet with the reduced conditions they will end up short for next summer, just at the time everyone else is hovering up pilots, what a bloody industry :sad::sad:

[Mr Angry from Purley]

LNIDA
Believe some of the guys at the top (Not Flt Ops) have gone already

[Old King Coal]

If MON make it through the winter of 2014 / 2015, I, for one, will be amazed !

All it'll take is a slight increase in fuel price and / or a downturn in passenger numbers and / or a hiccup in the world economy and / or a war a bit too close to home (go figure?!), and they'll be history (imho).

What we're seeing here is almost exactly the same scenario as happened to Air Europe (AEU) in 1990 / 1991. I.e. with pretty much all of the aforementioned items occurring, in a desperate attempt to stave off costs through the forthcoming winter, AEU, in the autumn of 1990 initiated staff layoffs and swathing cuts in the flying program. They then managed to keep going up 'til the 8th March 1991, at which point the Receiver was called in, much as a result of the collapse of AEU's parent company (ILG).. and, ok, yes, there's a bit more to it than all that, but that's basically the gist of it.

Imho, unless MON has incredibly deep cash reserves and / or access to a very generous line of credit, I rather suspect that this is going to be history repeating itself, I'm sad to say. :(

[LNIDA]

I really hope your off the mark in your predictions

I did read in one of the paper that administration was not an option for the private owners.

I do however think your right that cash will pour out off the business this winter and with a planned? much smaller operation for next Summer then the opportunity to replenish will be diminished.

The thing i just can't get my head round is why they announced an order for 30 new aircraft just week before this broke, i know its only an MOI but there must have been an awful lot of work put into evaluating the various suitors vying for their business...what changed in a matter of weeks?

[FANS]

Monarch have had the support of a shareholder with deep pockets. If he is now not willing to keep plugging the gap, it's a very difficult situation.

If their game plan is to rival the loco s, I can't see it lasting long term.

Time will tell but airlines in a difficult spot soon find hedging, leasing and bonding a nightmare.

[Artie Fufkin]

what changed in a matter of weeks?

The owner said no after 45 years of saying yes.

[TartinTon]

More specifically, the Chairman, who had been bullsh*tting the owner, got found out...

[Egon Maybach]

Just a shame people who were calling this guy and his colleagues out several years ago got shouted down by those assuming billionaire owners meant job for life regardless of bums on seats or revenue generated. The rot started with Brown and sadly many people who have dealt with the senior management over the years have predicted just such an outcome as we see today. This is not an "I told you so" I really feel for those excellent staff who have been shafted. Highest paid director in the last accounts was £1m+ - go figure.

[Gordomac]

It is looking grim. I agree with Old King Coal . I was at AE for 12 years and packing my US clothes for the first MD11 course. Instead I wound up on the New Joiners Course for Dole & Income Support. Many of us, like OKC will be reminded of our own experiences. Eagle, Court, Laker, Channel , Oh and glorious Invicta. I was the first candidate for their sponsored pilot training programme and told to wait three months for developments. They went bust and I carried on loading bags at LGW for BUA. Look, sad, sickening experiences and all of us wish better times for our Monarch colleagues. It is not the fall but the getting up that will see you all re-establishing yourselves quickly.

A painful reminder that as Commercial Pilots, we are licensed by our Regulatory Authorities to operate for hire/reward. Stay loyal to the licensing Authority and not to what is painted on the side of an aircraft.

[FANS]

This is a serious situation that will rapidly deteriorate if new owners and their cash are not announced in due course.

Rest assured the staff will find out last what's really going on.

[Chidken Sangwich]

Anyone have any ideas what drove Monarch's decision to abandon the charter market altogether? Are they struggling to compete with the array of cheap European charter carriers now operating out of the UK?

As already mentioned by Egon, the rot started a good few years ago when the Charter Department was moved over 80 miles away from the Head Office.

It really does beggar belief that mis-management and personal ego's have allowed THE charter Airline of the UK to slip into this mess. Claiming that there is no money in the charter model, and failing to maintain old relationships or move in the correct circles to secure new business is the real failure here.

Its obvious to see given the carriers operating in Monarch's back yard (a yard that they should have been controlling) that there is sound business still available in the UK which hasn't been exploited.

Charter / ACMI contracts currently in UK/Eire (excludes the 2 Air Contractors pax aircraft):

Norwegian 738 x 2 - Thomson
Germania 737 - Thomson
Germania A319 x 2 - mixed
Privilege 757 - Jet 2
A320 (YL- registered) - Cooks
TVS/Sunwing 738 - Cooks
Fly Dubai 738 x 3 - Ryanair
Air Explore 734 x 2 - Ryanair
Estonian E170 - mixed
Small Planet A320 - mixed
Titan A320 - EZY
Titan 757 - EZY

There 17 contracts above, 12 Aircraft to leave the fleet... surely someone should have been securing some of the above?

It sadens me that its come to this and wish all those that are being sold down the river the very best. I've heard the revised T&C's are severe to say the very least.

[Rushed Approach]

Usual upbeat message being trotted out by PPRuNe then! The doom-mongers hard at work as usual.

The fact is that Monarch has needed an unencumbered makeover to bring it properly into the 21st century for years. Seabury are in and see huge potential, as do several serious investors.

Come November, the changes will start. Come next May, the airline will be transformed.

[JB007]

At the expense of how many jobs though RA?!

People are in receipt of "at risk" letters now, I'm afraid redundancies will happen!

[Rushed Approach]

Change sometimes has to be painful. But there are many jobs out there and Monarch will do all it can with all of its excellent links within the industry to secure these opportunities for those pilots that must unfortunately leave for now, with an open door to come back with seniority if they wish in years to come.

[mesh]

Rushed approach, nice thought but unfortunately unlikely. We have had a lot of info that anybody could find in 10 mins in the Internet regarding jobs. Unlike TC and contacts/jobs with EK, we have a couple of email addresses at various airlines to send a cv.....as for returning on seniority that's not quite the reality. We may be able to come back, seniority hasn't been mentioned and to be honest whont really matter as we are about to have our T's and C's put in the bin....

[EMB-145LR]

Which email addresses have Monarch provided their excellent team with? One would hope that BA, easyJet, Jet2, DHL and Thomas Cook would all be able to find positions for the unlucky ones who will be seeking employment.

[FANS]

Seabury probably see huge potential for fees for themselves, as they are advisers rather than investors.

Monarch appear to have chosen to be become a smaller loco . The culture change required alone will be too much.

[Egon Maybach]

RA - you yourself couldn't see this coming

This is simply press speculation from a newspaper that really ought to know better (it's that time of year). Swiss billionaires aren't in the habit of throwing good money after bad - that's why they remain Swiss billionaires that have increased their wealth over recent years, despite the "recession".

In reality, they are playing a long game and will back loans to companies in their portfolio that have served them well and will do so again in the future.

An airline's profit is but one element in the big picture. The shareholders buy and then lease aircraft that they own to the Company and are thus having their aircraft bought from the lease costs. Once these aircraft are paid for (after say 10 years) they make a substantial profit for the shareholder (not the company) for another 10 or more years, analogous to buying a buy-to-let house and having the tenants buy it for you in 10 years via their rent and therefter you enjoy another 10 years with no mortgage payments. Unfortunately aircraft tend to last not much longer than 20 or so years, unlike houses.

The point is that Monarch does not need to make money to be of value to the shareholders - why do you think it has NEVER made a substantial profit of more than £10m, despite a £700+m turnover in recent years, in over 40 years of trading?

[Three Lions]

Just as an interesting aside...

The recent, and surprising to most, decision to go with the b737 order.... Is this order still in place.

If so it may give some insight into the future of Monarch.

Also is it possible the change of commercial direction was known before the aircraft order was made?

[mark_eisner]

An order was never made. "Preferred bidder" was as far as it went.

[Bail out]

Financial rhetoric ... Backfired slightly.

[Rushed Approach]

We'll see.

[Three Lions]

On the surface the plan to compete with the locos seems suicide.

Have the plans to order the b737s actually been shelved? Seems suspicious in the least to look to procure a different fleet, then shortly afterwards announce a business direction change.

Maybe I am just far too suspicious for my own good sometimes.

[Skyjob]

Unless the 737's were part of the loco plan already in advance...

[FANS]

Just as management are asking you to take the downside pain, presumably they re offering equity to share in the upside....

[mesh]

Nope, they are screwing us...

[RHINO]

All Monarch peeps are touching their toes at the moment and they won't be coming up anytime soon...

[Three Lions]

Suppose it depends whether its Norwegian or RYR

[Bail out]

Redundancies yet they sign a new sponsorship deal with the Northampton Saints?

News | Aviva Premiership Rugby | Official Website (http://www.premiershiprugby.com/mobile/news/32905.php)

[Thadius]

Looks like easy are going for the jugular , planning to move two units from Liverpool to Manchester over the winter !

[Rushed Approach]

Or they're following Monarch's lead in deciding that the regionals have no future.

[SCANDIC]

One if the 75's has been bought by jet2

[SCANDIC]

They are actually looking at ones the 330's too.

[mad_jock]

does it hell.

It will be a cold day in hell if any company takes on a fleet aircraft and crew.

[kick the tires]

Looks like easy are going for the jugular , planning to move two units from Liverpool to Manchester over the winter !

That plan was put in place at least 12 months ago! There is another airframe coming to MAN in 2015 too - thought I'd mention that before all the conspirators jump on that one too!!

[Iver]

25 737max spread out over several years is just too few airframes to compete.

[JB007]

BA bought BMI! Bit different when you buy the whole company as opposed to a single retired aircraft unit from a company! Apologies if it sounded sarcastic...

[horsebox]

Jet2 recruiting for 757 as we speak. Regardless of how and when airframes are bought and sold, crew are always free to change employers.

http://www.jet2careers.com/career-search?id=731933

[largegeorgejones]

Well the rumour I heard is that easyjet are investing / absorbing! All for the slots nothing else! Anyone in easy heard anything about a big announcement in October?

[INeedTheFull90]

On god, another 'big announcement' coming. Like the many other big announcement days I've heard rumoured in my time at the big easy, the day will come and go and nothing will be said.

I can't see them absorbing an airline just to get a few extra slots. From a business point of view it would be much easier to just wait and if the worst were to happen, then the slots would be easiy to come by picking up the ashes. It's a lot cheaper and simpler.

[WHYEYEMAN]

If things don't turn out well for Monarch, which I sincerely hope does not come to pass, then one thing is for certain. Easyjet will not want to see any of Monarch's LGW slots end up in the hands of the competition. Would they consider another take-over a la GB Airways? Highly unlikely on the face of it with the current flexible fleet expansion plans. But LGW is Easyjet's cash cow so if it kept the competition out, then who knows.

[A and C]

Mmmmmmm free LGW slots, I guess Norewgian will be more than happy to fill those slots.

[speedrestriction]

I would forsee a lot of interest from the Competition and Markets Authority if that would come to pass due to the dominant position held already at LGW and LTN. Just to give some perspective: if LGW's second largest airline took all of MON's slots (which it won't), LGW's largest airline would still hold a far greater number of slots.

[cvg2iln]

But if monarch are laying off 200 odd pilots as rumours on here have said if they have sold an airframe to jet2 then why not provide the crew to operate it as part of the deal.


Scope/SLI issues: does Jet2 management recognize such niceties? Acquiring airframes along with crew could be something of a minefield. But it's the land of Little Britain - so perhaps buying lift along with crew isn't an insurmountable stumbling block.

[mad_jock]

its is a minefield.

And your going to have to induct them anyway.

And as the market is going to be flush with current drivers there is no point in taking them with the airframe. Might as well spend a day interviewing and start with a blank sheet of paper when they walk in the door.

And as DEC's are fraught with political and other issues they may want to upgrade there own and only take FO's.

[mesh]

If we are talking 757 nearly all FO's will have choice to stay as they have the seniority. Question is would they stay at Monarch or move to Jet 2. In terms of our new T's and C's they are similar to Jet 2 so may decide to stay. I think a load of pilots are about to leave Monarch for newer pastures but you will not see them go to Jet 2.

[mad_jock]

will have choice to stay as they have the seniority

Do you really think that's going to matter in the new regime?

They will try to boot the senior expensive pilots first just like they did with flybe.

[RHINO]

Mad jock....

there will be no senior expensive pilots in Monarch shortly, everybody is moving to the bread and water regime...:*

[mad_jock]

You get bread and water and don't have to bring your own?

Seriously though if the person is senior and they have to pay to get them re-rated to fly something else to stay, seniority won't keep them in a job.

[Easy Glider]

Keep hearing about these vastly reduced terms and conditions at Monarch but does anyone want to give a break down of the new compared to old for those of us who don't know?

[A4]

What about the Pension? What about those that have done 10, 20, 30 years and are coming up for retirement. If you've contributed/saved/done the "right" thing - to have your retirement plans decimated is nothing short of evil. With the fund in deficit and finances on the rack - my heart goes out to those affected :(

[mesh]

it costs pennies to type rate the 757 guys and they have already been assured the change

[Iver]

Isn't Thomson also adding 757 pilots? Not sure about bases...

[mesh]

Yup, I would think all of the FO's would have applied for this. I know a few who are going for it

[kick the tires]

Keep hearing about these vastly reduced terms and conditions at Monarch but does anyone want to give a break down of the new compared to old for those of us who don't know?

circa 30% pay cut, sign or go bust.

[Easy Glider]

so, in a nut shell, (much larger numbers granted, ) but pretty much what the TCX guys were told eighteen or so months ago. If you ask most of them now, they would probably agree they were "had"! Maybe Monarch management were watching that unfold and liked what they saw?

[bucket_and_spade]

For clarity the TCX pilots were not asked to take a 30% paycut. They were asked (balloted) to take a 3% one. The company was also (by their calculation) captain-heavy so they imposed some demotions (roughly 25-30 initially) - some of these guys were then looking at a 30% pay but (CP to SFO).

[mesh]

wish it was only 30% :(

[Jonty]

If the mods want to delete this feel free, this was the text I was sent. No idea if its true or not:

Monarch's new T&C's. Increments gone. Capt on £89k. FO £53k. Everybody forced to work 50% winter and paid accordingly. No DOP. No Duty pay. No PHI. No scheduling agreement at all. Working to EASA. Final salary pension for under 55's removed and whatever you have put in it lost. 7% max pension contributions. 1 week of leave in the summer!!

[Deano777]

Excuse my ignorance but what's DOP & PHI ?

[Tarisio]

PHI = Permanent Health Insurance
DOP I think is payment for working a Day Off

Don't think they can simply remove benefits built up under a final salary pension, the Trustees are in control. But if there's a substantial deficit the benefits could well be reduced.

[Bail out]

The above figures are headline, the pro rota given 9 months on / 3 off is as stated in the contracts are £83'176 and £44'846 with no increments.

:ugh:

[DooblerChina]

If those figures are correct, MON would have the worst pay and conditions in the UK. I'd tell them to take a jump. Why sign up to that when Id be looking to leave anyway. I despise the way pilots and crew get the blame for management inadequacies.

[FANS]

What happens to those refusing the salary reduction?

[HPbleed]

In a nutshell - If people refuse, the airline won't get sold, the M's declare insolvency and everyone is out of a job.

[FANS]

That is absolute nonsense.

If a company's going to be insolvent, you'll find out when the administrator turns up. Any business on the verge of administration never mentions it in advance.

To say we need a paycut otherwise we'll go into administration is complete game playing. If the funding was so tight that it depends upon pay reform means there isn't enough cashflow head-room anyway for a company the size of Monarch to survive.

Have the aircraft lease payments taken a similar haircut?

What guarantees do you get it won't go into administration anyway?

What happens if an employee votes no?

Have you seen the due diligence report on their business plan?

Absolute game playing by management.

[Artie Fufkin]

Your management are not performance-based-bonus-hungry-:mad: as seen in much of the low cost sector, they are trying to save your jobs. The cuts are severe, but for the business' long term survival, Monarch's costs must match (beat?) its' competitors.

Monarch's decade-late acknowledgement that the "UK to The Sun" market is firmly in the hands of the low cost sector is the reason the required adjustment seem so severe.

[DooblerChina]

Rubbish!! look at TUI/TOM decent pay and conditions for crew and pilots, UK to the Sun routes... half a billion pounds in profit last year!! Monarch have been failed by decisions made at board level and the hard working crews are getting screwed for it.

If they are considered expensive then fine, offer a haircut but the figures quoted sounds more like a punishment!!

[Cliff Secord]

That's bull. Time and again you see companies turning to the the staff demanding a cull of pay and conditions in order to save a company as if it were the staff that caused the problem. These guys aren't consultants coming in. Theyre management who through their own collective board level failures have led to a certain corporate situation. They took the job and the big bucks, that's their remit. Punishing the workforce only works if it's genuine and across the board. I'd want to see a written guarantee that management are taking an equivalent proportionate cut (getting off lightly as they're in the driving seat which caused this) and also a pledge that should high times return, a reinstatement of conditions takes place and not a case of yesterday's panic turns into today's norm.

[FANS]

AF - do you still believe in Santa Claus? Management couldn't care less about saving jobs.

As an example, EZY is a business with a market cap of £5.5bn and profits before tax of £500m so let's not pretend there's not money to be made.

Management have been cooking this up for a long time, and the threat of insolvency (is that administration?) is just another move in the chess board.

[FANS]

If administration/liquidation is an option, presumably you've demanded to be paid all PILON, redundancy, holiday pay etc above the statutory levels with immediate effect?

[TartinTon]

You can't really blame the current management as most of them have been there less than 18 months. The blame sits squarely with the last board (and the one before that) who have all left with a big fat cheques in their pockets. The guys who are there now have to face a reality where all the assets have been sold and the bottom of the barrel has been reached.

[renort]

Tartin. Glad you've finally seen sense. I remember several debates with you centering on the hapless ineptitude of directors past (and some still hanging on) going back probably 5 years or more. The warning signs have been there for years, unfortunately those that could see this coming who posted on the Monarch threads were generally shouted down as naysayers or trolls, or it got lost by posts from people dazzled by generous t&c's quick time to command and a mythical aircraft order.

Just a shame the culprits have all but disappeared with their payoffs.
Good luck everybody.

[LNIDA]

Monarch seeks cuts to pay and pensions | The Times (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/business/industries/transport/article4201598.ece)

[Jonty]

Just read that article. Not looking good for those close to retirement at all!

[FANS]

Pay 30% and forget the £tens of millions in promised DB pension, or I'll blow up your airline.

To any businessman, that sounds like a terrorist.

To some of you, it's met with cries that they need to do this, the new management are good guys and can't be blamed!

You need to start getting streetwise pronto, and get a professional adviser onboard.

[LNIDA]

Whilst one can understand the comment about 'the family' has invested enough over recent years it completely ignores the return and tax advantages it has enjoyed over many many years, of course there can be no blank cheques for future investment, but pensions provisions should have been fully funded, a hair cut of the magnitude suggested here is disgraceful and ought to be illegal

This will do nothing for customer service despite the much vaunted re training of front line staff, i suspect Monarch will be a re run of bmi with death by a 1000 cuts, the only difference is that its German owners Lufthansa had rather more integrity than this dodgy Italian/Swiss bunch, Lufthansa even topped up the money paid into the PPF post sale to ensure members got all or close to their projected benefits.

To suggest that Monarch can compete with he likes EasyJet/Ryanair/Norwegian or even Jet2 is living in cloud cuckoo land, Monarch will bleed cash this winter and the uncertainty over its future will result in tickets for next summer been sold at distress pricing, if it gets that far

[ZeBedie]

BALPA are negotiating behind a non disclosure agreement, so we have very few facts. They appear convinced by the threats.

[A4]

Presumably there have been annual reports about the state of the pension fund? Has the deficit been building steadily over 10's of years or has it accelerated rapidly in the last couple? Has the company been making agreed contributions as required?

This is going to get really ugly - and I sympathise with all affected.

[FANS]

BALPA are negotiating behind an NDA and management are using The Times!

Let's not forget that the auditor signed off their accounts in May 2014, which means they have satisfied themselves that the business is a going concern for 12 months. Equally, they did not include any going concern issue in their audit report.

ATOL still renewed as fine.

Negotiation against terrorists is not in line with BALPA's cosy chats. Stealing candy from kids.

[ARNOLDJ]

I know someone who works for an asset management company whose services Monarch employ and this person revealed to me a few years ago that Monarch had enquired about the legalities surrounding dipping into the pension pot. Rather loud alarm bells. The management at Monarch have a lot to answer for.

[Offchocks]

I flew with Monarch for 9 years from the late 70s. I have always thought of the airline as being a survivor and I only hope for those working there, that there is a turn around in the airline's fortunes.
Without wishing to be seen as self-centered, does anyone know the position of those of us already drawing the pension?

[stiglet]

My understanding from being in the same position as you but with a different company is that once you start to draw your pension you are protected and the pension arrangements cannot be changed without your agreement. If anyone knows different from experience or knowledge I would also be interested.

[FANS]

"You will have been receiving a pension from your scheme before your former employer went bust.

If you were beyond the scheme’s normal retirement age when your employer went bust, the Pension Protection Fund will generally pay 100 per cent level of compensation, which means we will generally pay you the same amount in compensation when your scheme enters the PPF.

Your payments relating to pensionable service from 5 April 1997 will then rise in line with inflation each year, subject to a maximum of 2.5 per cent a year. Payments relating to service before that date will not increase.

This information may also apply if you retired through ill-health or if you are receiving a pension in relation to someone who has died."

[MaximumPete]

There's no getting away from the fact that legislation should be in place to safeguard the individuals' pensions and not for want of a better term allow companies to 'turn the tap off' when the going gets rough.

Yes, FANS is correct about the PPF but it must be appreciated that with 3% inflation it has been calculated that your pension is worth half in twenty years time. The money you've paid in long-term to cover this eventuality simply disappears into the coffers of somewhere, I know not where.

Been there, done it with bmi! There were no warning ever given about the security of our scheme until steps were taken by certain parties to ensure. it's eventual demise.

Good luck to all of you.

[FANS]

The PPF is a massive help compared to the Maxwell days.

That said, inflation is critical to a pension -particularly when the government is trying to inflate its way out of the debt issues.

Ultimately, you have a company that legally promised its workers a consideration, and it is now seeking to walk away from that in whichever manner it can.

That is one reason why I find management's behaviour a disgrace.

Also consider this - the PE houses looking to invest will want to make 5 - 10x their money on such an investment....

[JM926]

Are there currently any MPL holders in the airline with less than 1500 hours? :uhoh:

[Max Angle]

Lufthansa even topped up the money paid into the PPF post sale to ensure members got all or close to their projected benefits.That is, sadly, not true at all. The compensation (which we are only just receiving now so we have lost out of 2 years of booming stock markets) makes up only part of the loss and unfortunately the more you lost the less, in percentage terms, compensation you receive. Some members who were close to retirement have lost up to 2/3rds of their pensions or more.

Good luck to all you Monarch pensioners who have paid in for years, I feel for you.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

There are I understand MPL license holders with less than 1500hrs in MON just as there were in Flybe during their recent crisis when pilots were laid off.

MPL had only been going a couple of years and already there are a couple of participating airlines which have needed to lay off pilots whilst using the scheme. I think it is unacceptable and the CAA should be ashamed of allowing a scheme which indentures new pilots to businesses which no matter how well known or long established are proven to be financially precarious. By which I mean every airline in the UK.

It has been related to me that Carolyn McCall has in conversation alluded that ex-easyJet cadets now discarded by MON may be welcome to return to EZY subject to satisfactory training records. Good luck to all during what must be a massively stressful time.

[planedrive]

@jm926 - There certainly are - 2 groups of 6 if I am not mistaken, both from CTC. The last intake of CTC Monarch wings, who have just finished their flight training in New Zealand, have been dropped by the airline and taken on by easyJet from what I've heard. :bored:

[Sprinkles]

Regarding MPL guys. Their main concern is the fact they'll be getting dumped into the market with low hours. The union have given us more specific information regarding the status of their licences.

The rest of us are just crossing our fingers that the company survives and they'll be minimum demotions/redundancies.

Does make me think I should have stayed in my last business. My last company (out of aviation) has grown from 50 employees to 200 and increased turnover by £40m in five years.

Flying planes for a living is comical at times! :hmm:

[JM926]

Well, encouraging to hear rumours of easyJet accepting applications from their former cadets. One of the big risks of MPL, but at least it sounds like those guys mid way through training won't be completely hung out to dry.

I'm sure there are many more Monarch guys with a lot of uncertainty ahead. I work for a competitor but it's nonetheless awful to hear the news about their restructuring.

All the very best to the guys affected....

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Good luck all you guys at Monarch. Nothing good ever comes from an airline struggling or folding. Managements elsewhere use it as a reason to screw their own workforce and drive down industry terms and conditions. Here's hoping a good rescue package can be put together :)

[Count of Monte Bisto]

JM926 - I would not hold your breath over easyJet accepting former cadets as I am told that is not the case. I think the CEO was asked in a brief conversation on the flight deck about the issue and gave a generally positive reply, which had a caveat of 'subject to a good training record'. That clearly includes a good attitude. A number of those guys left hating easyJet, and were very vocal about it. They felt they were working for a rubbish company and Monarch offered a 'proper' contract and treated their staff so much better. They only good thing easyJet had done for them was teach them to fly an Airbus and they could not wait to leave. Most companies do not like being told by foolish young people with no life experience that they are a bunch of losers - easyJet are no exception. These were young guys from CTC who had been given the opportunity of a lifetime by coming to work for one of Europe's biggest and most stable companies, flying brand new Airbuses all over Europe. Why would easyJet take back people with a proven track record of complaining when there are literally thousands of other pilots desperate to join and who will just be incredibly grateful for the opportunity?

[kick the tires]

Have to agree with The Count. The more vociferous ones were a pain in the ar$e and it was good to see them go.

Those with a bit more maturity and dignity accepted that, at the time, there was a better offer on the table and left with dignity; I suspect they will be the ones Davina is referring to.

I never understood why some were so disparaging about easy, after all they knew exactly what they were signing up to, nobody held a gun to their head and I'm pretty sure such personal objections weren't voiced at the interview!

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, eh?

[FANS]

These were the cadets that were complaining vociferously about low T&Cs at EZY, but didn't want to acknowledge that the only reason they were in the RHS given their zero experience, was because of £$.

[Superpilot]

Oh the irony of it all. :ugh:

[Stone Cold II]

I told many they were making a huge mistake, but got told once or twice I didn't know what I was talking about and Monarch were on to big things, but hey what do I know, only been flying 20yrs. One cadet put on FB good riddance EJ shove your spirit up your arse, that was only around 6 moths ago, wonder what they're thinking now as i'm sure they will be the first to go.

Now they did sign up to it and knew the deal with EJ, plus they were getting lots of experience on a popular type. Maybe they should have tried the way it was years ago when you had to instruct for a few years earning peanuts before getting into a airline and working your way up.

Anyway I hope Monarch pull through and I wouldn't wish the threat of redundancy on anyone. Good luck to all.

[INeedTheFull90]

So Davina reckons the those who fled to MON are coming back? Is that the same Davina who claims cabin crew earn £40k? I wouldn't hold my breath, but stranger things have happened at the Big Easy.

[Three Lions]

Maybe we can just for a second or so forget MPL CTC EZY and get back on topic.

Two words to those "low only jet experience" guys caught up in a ezy/Monarch dilemma or MPL and no job

CAVEAT EMPTOR

and two words to those further into their careers and now up against it - I've been where you are it's not pleasant

GOOD LUCK :ok:

[Enzo999]

I don't suppose many of the ex EZY guys at Monarch will loose too much sleep about not returning to EZY as nearly all them are heading for BA!

The people at Monarch who will suffer the most are the experienced F/Os who don't have the protection of CTC, nearly every door is closed to us and we will end up in the Middle East whether we like it or not. We are also slightly older and on the whole have wives, children and mortgages to worry about, and not just concerned with paying off a training loan.

[Superpilot]

Proper careers are protected by industry regulators and unions/lobby groups who help to hammer out those regulations. Proper careers guarantee those with experience; the most to lose and the least to gain from unemployment, the right to further employability. The recruitment preferences of our airlines has led to a system where one's experience doing the job works directly against one's employability. How obscenely strange is that?

[Thadius]

That's direct policy of the airlines to flood the industry with Mcpilots.......

[Nightstop]

I recently heard a very young MON F/O whinging to a mate in the car park crew bus that he'd have to apply to EZY and when he got the job he'd be shafted on an EZY flexi contract. Obviously, his situational awareness (surrounded by EZY crew) and NOTECH skills (zero) will see him fall at the first hurdle := . Good luck in BA, if you make it (which I doubt).

[stiglet]

Enzo99 Strange that you think these young F/O will be accepted by BA when a lot of the existing F/O's who applied have not been. Don't see why BA should be charitable just because Monarch are in difficulties; they can pick and choose who they want.

I agree with these last sentiments - why re-employ a pilot who chooses to leave for a 'better' airline only a year ago. If they do get accepted back they will be on the new contracts which will make them worse off then they were before.

To give preference to an ex ezy pilot over any other applicant I would have thought they would need to be exceptional AND have had a very good reason to resign.

[renort]

A small bunch of whining brats are getting far too much airtime on this thread.

[JosuaNkomo]

Of all who left from our base in the North for Monarch I only rated two. The rest were self absorbed and useless in my humble opinion.

[Blantoon]

I have to say there are some really shameful attitudes on display here. People taking pleasure in the downfall of an airline and the livelihoods of cadets/MPL/easyjetleavers.

They're all people, they all have rent/mortgages. Friends, family. A pension to save for. Just because they, for example, left easyJet for Monarch, with or without dignity, doesn't mean they become daemons unworthy of sympathy. There's far too much bitter pleasure being taken in a hindsight strengthened "I told you so" going on here.

Shame on this forum.

[tom775257]

The schadenfreude on display is sickening (not just in this thread), covered up with a superficial 'sorry for those losing their jobs' or some such hollow turn of phrase. I suppose I should expect no less from the industry that gave us pay to fly, flexi crew, 'self employed' airline pilots, SSTR etc.

[bigjarv]

Absolutely shameful humanity on display hidden behind anonymity. The chips are down my friends. Try not to forget that.

[crosswind11]

At the end of the day the whole company is at risk if an investor isn't found!

[speedrestriction]

Keep some perspective please, most people here have only wished well for those affected - don't let a small number of ignorant contributors detract from the fact that the vast majority of fellow professionals and ppruners would like to see Monarch continuing to fly and offer secure employment for many more years.