Monarch in turbulence

[waco]

Perhaps the question will be......

Can Greybull make a quick killing by splitting MAEL, Runway slots, 737 Max line slots plus other assets and make a fast buck. This would perhaps be especially attractive if the pension problem has been solved ?

Were Greybull involved with the Comet electrical company when that business went wrong ?

[Abacus]

Re post 514

I am a Monarch pensioner. I haven't received any such email. Care to enlighten us further?

Cheers.

[FANS]

As the ink dries, the reality of greybull trying to turn their 125m into 400m+ will set in.

The disposals of non core business will help.

And also the exit planning. Like 3i in Go, greybull will be selling on and you couldn't go too far wrong replicating ezy business model.

Ps I take it that the family have not invested in greybull?!

[New T2 Office]

waco,




Seabury Designs a Turnaround Plan to Bring the Airline to Profitability –

Monarch Achieves ₤200 Million in Reductions of Annual Costs

October 24, 2014 05:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time

NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Seabury Group (“Seabury”), a leading global advisory and professional services firm, announced today that it has successfully advised the U.K.-based Monarch Airlines Group (“Monarch” or “the Group”) with respect to the completion of its strategic review and restructuring program. Under the program Monarch has secured ₤125 million of permanent capital and liquidity facilities provided by Greybull Capital LLP (“Greybull”) anchored by a ₤50 million capital commitment




So we save 200 million/year.....and this year we lost 60m.

I'll leave you to do the maths!

[FANS]

What assurances have the staff had that the business is a going concern?

[New T2 Office]

Plenty, in confidential correspondance from the company .....but we wouldn't (and contractually, we are not allowed to either) divulge them on a public internet forum.

[LVL_CHG]

Tubby Linton - SFB for Jet2? I've heard about the damp lease airbus but though it was doing regular Mediterranean route? For example filling it once rather than doing 2 flights a day to same destination.

[tubby linton]

LVL CHG crew room gossip, but also heard in SFB

[Facelookbovvered]

I'll help with the maths, the shrinking of the business and its employee cost base will save £200m a year.

The shrinkage of the business & fleet will also shrink the revenue, so long as the revenue shrinkage doesn't exceed £140m then they'll break-even assuming a £60m loss this year.

Like most i think it would make sense to sell MAEL off, LGW slots are another matter, but if Davis favours a second runway at LGW the value may go up or down, but playing bucket & spades short haul LoCo against EZY & NAS will not be easy money at LGW however much the brand is cherished by the nation.

[Rushed Approach]

Monarch has been taking on easy and Ryan on its core routes for 10 years and holding its own in a shift from charter to scheduled over that period that is already 90%+ complete. Now with a realigned cost base and unencumbered by the pension deficit the future looks much better than it potentially did last week.

Let's not pretend Greybull aren't in it to make money. Of course they are - any investor would be. But with the 737 MAX 8s being delivered between 2018 and 2020, in order to maximise the gain on their investment, 2020 or later looks like a far more likely exit point at which to float the airline. In the meantime the fleet will continue to modernise with new Airbus a/c continuing to arrive. Greybull will only be able to sell the airline on if it is a viable business, at which point hopefully the staff will see some payback from an IPO if that is what happens.

As for the maths, yes the revenue will be reduced by operating less aircraft, but the cost savings in staff pay, lease rates, and the various other compromise deals are very significant and now make Monarch a very lean single type operator from S15.

[A4]

and now make Monarch a very lean single type operator from S15.

....and then a 2 year transition of mixed fleet with the intro of the 73M with all the associated additional costs in training/IT/booking engines/inflexible crewing and duplication due to two types. Just seems that they have the potential to get on their feet after a very difficult period....and then introduce a whole load of expensive complexity (albeit "only" for two years).

[ZeBedie]

Boeing will be paying for the retraining which, in the scale of things, is not all that significant anyway. Easy did it the other way and I think they survived it.

[renort]

Seems someone had itchy trigger fingers on Friday.

Could have been awkward...

[Superpilot]

Anyone hazard to guess what possibilities there may be to reverse the decision to go Boeing now that Greybull are in charge?

[Rushed Approach]

The Boeing deal is confirmed now I believe and includes credit for the delay for the Monarch 787s that were eventually cancelled.

[ZeBedie]

An asteroid could have hit us on Saturday. Could have been awkward.

[JaxofMarlow]

Bestofficeintheworld.
Please. We have had enough of the doom and gloom on this thread. We can all speculate as to what could happen to :mad: up Monarch from here. The Monarch guys have had a tough time for quite a while now and do not need any more negativity. Now it is time to be positive and hope that the new management mean what they say and have the skills to carry it off. They have an immediate PR hurdle to over come and some decent advertising might help.

[MaxPower2011]

Bestofficeintheworld

This is my opinion based on my limited knowledge and a small amount of research based on my interest in Monarch, so I'm happy to be shot down but....

Comet - Greybull were a minority investor with no board representation, it was not Greybull, nor any of the final investors that caused its downfall, but the collapse of the Dixons merger. Creditors panicked causing a suffocation of cash flow. They were able to do that due to the significant stock assets at Comets disposal.

MAEL was indeed the most profitable arm of the monarch empire last year, however the fact that Monarch airlines was the largest contributor to that profit need not be underestimated. If you were a business family of let's say Swiss nationality but Italian descent and you owned an airline, an aircraft engineering company, a tour operator and various other travel related enterprises that all traded off each other, would you be tempted to move money between these companies in an efficient ( but legal ) manner so as to minimise your tax bill? How else could an airline survive for 48 years on next to no profit? Good will?

Airport slots - I am open to correction, but I believe airport slots cannot be sold between airlines. They can be returned to the airport authority and then auctioned off or sold as part of an airline sale. They may well be the companies most valuable asset but they are of no value to Greybull unless they flog the airline (which may well happen, but is not as bleak an outcome as what you have suggested)

737's - correct... I don't believe that an absolute firm order is in place, however the reported deal is worth £60m and the commitment from Greybull is around £125m so the theory doesn't add up.

Company cars - I don't get down to the LTN offices all that offices all that often, but from what I remember it hardly resembles the top gear car park. At the last check my base manager was driving a very nice but not over indulgent Ford Mondeo.

Not wholly innacurate, but most definitely doom mongering. There are massiv battles ahead, and significant sacrifices have been made, but Monarch are in a far better place than they were 3 months ago.

[carbheatout]

Bestofficeintheworld

Can you tell me how much Greybull injected into the three companies you quote?

Also, could you educate me on how Greybull could 'sell' Airport-operator owned landing slots?

Thanks

[TartinTon]

Slots only have value if they are scarce....of all the ones you have quoted only LGW can be classed in that category and even they are not that scarce...Easy bought 50 slot pairs from Flybe. Norwegian were still able to put two full aircrafts worth of flying in without buying any this summer. Max is quite correct in his assessment of MAELs "profitability". The same can be said for Cosmos.

[111KAB]

Monarch boss: 'We'll be debt-free within three years' - www.travelweekly.co.uk (http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/Articles/2014/10/27/50863/monarch-boss-well-be-debt-free-within-three-years.html)

[Artie Fufkin]

Swaffield said: “My goal is to get the business in a really strong shape financially ... That’s going to happen not by taking money from the shareholders, that’s going to happen by generating money ourselves."
Like its some kind of revelation. No wonder problems arose.

:ugh:

[111KAB]

Talking about generating money it looks like someone is after it already! Didn't take Olympic long to try and grab some 'Greybull money'.
Olympic Holidays parent starts legal action against Monarch - www.travelweekly.co.uk (http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/Articles/2014/10/27/50871/olympic+holidays+parent+starts+legal+action+against+monarch. html)


Some 'outline' pension details here >
http://www.professionalpensions.com/professional-pensions/news/2377927/monarch-scheme-to-enter-ppf-after-restructuring


http://www.shlegal.com/press/2014_Press_releases/Stephenson_Harwood_LLP_advises_on_restructuring_of_Monarch_A irlines

[stormin norman]

My heart goes out to those staff who have over their careers put their hard earned into a pension scheme only to see it taken way from them at the last minute.

I flew with them a few times. Best of the charters by a mile. Brilliant staff.

I wish them well in the future and look forward to flying with them again.

[Facelookbovvered]

Good that it gets a fresh chance, but i do wonder just how much all of this is about clearing the pension black hole off the family's books. It appears that it has cost them around £50m to clear a £150m liability.

I note the comments above about moving money around for tax purposes, but i still think there is more money in fixing aircraft than flying them

[Affretage]

Olympic are going after the PLI (Passenger liability charge). The charge is also known as YQ, and still charged by many airlines, especially Italian and Eastern European airlines. PLI (also known as YQ) was charged to recover additional insurance premiums airlines had to pay as a result of 9/11. I doubt that aviation insurers are still charging premiums as a result of 9/11, but some airlines (and it seems Monarch as well) are still charging YQ to tour operators. Airlines who are still charging this, are taking the piss. If Olympic win this in court, this will have serious consequences for other charter airlines who still charge it. If the seat rate is £201, then it is £201, not £198 plus YQ !!!! As for Olympic, they have never been the same since Monarch stopped flying for them. Now that Monarch have anounced an end to charter flying, Olympic launched their court action. Draw your own conclusions !!! If Olympic do win their case, I hope that George will have the decency to contact all his passengers and equally refunded the PLI (YQ) charge to them. FAT CHANCE.

[BN2A]

Turbulence smoothing?? Will surely need some exrta people to crew these??


Boeing, Monarch Airlines Finalize Order for 30 737 MAX 8s

Airline transitions to all-Boeing single-aisle fleet

LUTON, United Kingdom, Oct. 31, 2014 /PRNewswire/ -- Boeing [NYSE:BA] and Monarch Airlines today finalized an order for 30 737 MAX 8s worth more than $3.2 billion at current list prices. The order, originally announced at the Farnborough International Airshow in July when Monarch selected Boeing as its preferred bidder for fleet replacement, includes options for 15 additional 737 MAX 8s and marks the beginning of the British carrier's transition to an all-Boeing single-aisle fleet.

"Seven days after welcoming new owners into the business, this order is a demonstration of our commitment to the future and the evolution of Monarch as a distinctive European scheduled leisure carrier," said Andrew Swaffield, CEO of the Monarch Group. "The 737 MAX 8 fits our network strategy of serving our traditional European leisure routes in greater frequency, providing increased choice and service for Monarch customers, with significantly improved unit costs to our business."

The 737 MAX has accumulated 2,325 orders to date from 48 customers and is the fastest selling airplane in Boeing history.

"The 737 MAX is the perfect airplane for Monarch as it moves its business model from a traditional charter carrier to a European scheduled leisure airline, offering improved efficiencies, high reliability and an outstanding passenger experience," said Todd Nelp, vice president of European Sales, Boeing Commercial Airplanes. "We are honored that Monarch has chosen Boeing as its future partner and are dedicated to ensuring this iconic operator's continued success."

The 737 MAX incorporates the latest technology CFM International LEAP-1B engines, Advanced Technology winglets and other improvements to deliver the highest efficiency, reliability and passenger comfort in the single-aisle market. The 737 MAX will be 14 percent more fuel-efficient than today's most efficient Next-Generation 737s – and 20 percent better than the original Next-Generation 737s when they first entered service. The 737 MAX 8 will have an 8 percent per seat operating cost advantage over the A320neo.

Headquartered at London Luton Airport, but also operating from five other U.K. bases – London Gatwick, Manchester, Birmingham, East Midlands and Leeds-Bradford – Monarch predominantly serves holiday destinations around the Mediterranean and the Canary Islands as well as European ski resorts. Founded in 1968, the British carrier will move to a cost effective and uniform fleet of 737 MAX 8s within the next decade.

On October 24, Monarch Airlines and other parts of Monarch Holdings Limited, the UK's leading independent leisure travel group, completed a restructuring program and sale of 90 percent of the group to Greybull Capital LLP under which it secured £125 million of permanent capital and liquidity facilities.

Contact:
Daniel Mosely
European Communications
Boeing Commercial Airplanes
+44 208 235 5665
[email protected]

[Fuel Crossfeed]

BN2A
The airbus crews will be converted on to the 737, so not sure extra crew will be needed.
Only recruitment that will be happening will be to replace all those leaving due to the recent shake up, future uncertainty and the raping of t&c's.

[nitefiter]

And if they do need crew? there will be, by then, a shed load of rated and current extremely hacked off 737 MAX drivers from NAS.
Take your pick.

[ZeBedie]

Rumours of numbers in double figures soon headed to Easy for DEC...

[OxfordGold]

I doubt we will see any Monarch 737's.

[PAPI-74]

More like 150 looking at the EK

[Monde]

At this rate MON will soon be recruiting for next year........

[DooblerChina]

I suspect they will, but with some of the worst t&c's in the country now, why would anyone join. If I was voting, I would have agreed to the changes for short term security but applied elsewhere immediately.

[McNugget]

Ironically, I wouldn't be surprised if EK guys applied for any MON vacancies next year, as a means of getting back home. As a stepping stone, of course.

[Egon Maybach]

Pilots' union calls for rethink on pension cap after Monarch deal
By Phil Davies | 26 November 2014 at 08.35 GMT



Pilots’ union Balpa is calling for a cap on pension payments to be rethought as 67 of its members who fly for Monarch Airlines face missing out £10 million in retirement payouts after the carrier was sold.
The pilots are facing the loss after the Mantegazza family handed over the airline last month to investment fund Greybull Capital, The Telegraph reported.
Greybull took control of 90% of Monarch after agreeing to pump in £125 million of capital and liquidity facilities, anchored by a £50 million investment.
Monarch’s pension fund – thought to have a deficit of more than £500 million – was not part of the deal.
In return for taking on the liabilities, the fund was transferred into the Pensions Protection Fund (PPF), the state-backed lifeboat which bails out underfunded pension schemes in companies which have collapsed or cannot afford to meet their liabilties.
The PPF also got a 10% stake in the airline and £30 million from the Mantegazzas for taking on Monarch's pension.
However, payments from the PPF are limited to just over £26,500 a year, meaning that many of the airline’s pilots will seen their pensions slashed as a result, according to the newspaper.
Balpa says the cap means 67 pilots face losing £10 million between them – an average of more than £156,000 each – and 13 of them will lose more than half of their expected pension.
General secretary Jim McAuslan said: “This cap was meant to stop highly-paid company bosses being reckless and then walking away with a huge pension when things went wrong.
“The reality is it is hitting middle-earning professional people like pilots and costing them a big chunk of their retirement fund.”
In a letter to the government, Balpa says the current system is having a “hugely deterimental impact” on the financial well-being of a group who “followed good government advice and saved a substantial proportion of their income in order to enjoy a decent retirement”.
The union adds that while its members hit by the cap are well paid, they are not “fat cats” or directors or managers able to influence the company’s pension scheme or commercial matters – the group the cap was intended to target when it was implemented a decade ago...........

[Brian Fantana]

Harriet Green looking for a new job !

[FLY BY WIRE]

DooblerChina "I suspect they will, but with some of the worst t&c's in the country now, why would anyone join. If I was voting, I would have agreed to the changes for short term security but applied elsewhere immediately."

That's exactly what happened! About 90% of pilots. Management might be getting slightly concerned? :ok:

[FLY BY WIRE]

Another thought:
If Easy wanted to get rid of potential future competition (Monarch have stated that they are going head to head with the LCCs by getting rid of Longhaul and charter) without the need for a costly price war, all they'd have to do is expand, offer DECs and FO positions in the UK and hey presto, no more pilots left at Mon.
Simples.

[RHINO]

who says that it is not quietly happening....

[highfive]

It's a pity that pilots have to take their families over to the middle east to seek employment. What happened to great Britain? Out CAA is loosing licensed crews at an alarming rate, but maintain a hands off attitude to protecting them.
150 guys to go emirates? Good luck, but once an expat, hard to return. Hard to keep the easa licence current . And the tax free salary is ok, but don't expect to be chatting to mum n dad on the Skype, it's still blocked in Dubai. Go figure .

[Old and Horrified]

I have to correct that - my son lives in Dubai and Skype works perfectly.

[highfive]

If your son lives in a private apartment, then he can Skype. Hotels are, by law, banned from allowing access.


The CAA is funded by the government and subscriptions by pilots to keep their licences current. Usually via the airline they work for. The CAA does not recognize time on foreghn types to maintain uk currency. Yet.
The Finnish authorities do. The Spanish do. The Irish do. The Turkish do. The Slovenians do. The Italians do.

So, a number of uk licence holders, working out of easa state have changed their competent authority. The uk CAA has to prevent its pilots working abroad to maintain income, Simple.
By preventing the licence to be transferred to say the middle east, they would preserve uk jobs.
Somple ?

[212man]

The CAA is funded by the government

I don't think so....

The UK Government requires that the CAA’s costs are met entirely from its charges on those whom it regulates. Unlike many other countries, there is no direct Government funding of the CAA’s work.

[Old and Horrified]

Wrong again. When my son went out there earlier this year he stayed in a hotel about 20 minutes from the airport for six weeks and used to Skype us regularly. I can remember him showing us the view from his window.

[Superpilot]

Skype is officially blocked in Dubai. A two second Internet search reveals this and its even stated on their website. People can get around this by using proxy servers and VPNs. Indeed, even some hotels, recognising it's good for business, get around it by routing traffic through foreign VPNs. Appears to be a loop hole in that proxy/VPNs are not banned by the state.

Similar problems for most expats living in places that look good, pay good but offer very little freedom and quality of life (if you are prepared to look beyond the superficial).

[Old and Horrified]

Maybe Skype is banned for use in bypassing Dubai's own telephone network for commercial reasons. It certainly works internationally for computer to computer. My real point is that to suggest that it is banned for some big brother surveillance or reduction of civil liberties reason is plain wrong.

Dubai is not a western city, but then neither is Hong Kong or Singapore. Dubai has some iron rules (no drugs anywhere and no alcohol at all when driving, for example) but some of the horror stories are wildly exaggerated. Professional ex-pats can have a very good life over there. The weather is good, apart from two months in Summer; westerners tend to be left alone to do their own thing; if you want to drink, there are plenty of approved bars (mostly in hotels); there are plenty of sports available; the money is good (although the cost of living there has been going up recently). There is also an almost zero crime rate. Most importantly, however, there are jobs. Money in your bank account and hours in your log book are surely good wherever they come from.

[nitefiter]

Thread is creeping here but from my experience,
Just about everything is banned in the UAE, does that stop any of it happening? No! Being discreet and not "rubbing anyone's nose
in it" works just fine, have a problem of any kind where the police get involved and then your in the brown stuff.
Skype works just fine with VPN as does euro tv.

[111KAB]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6ce546e8-7654-11e4-a704-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3KZ0ZhNXJ

[kick the tires]

Links to subscribed sites don't work if you're a non subscriber.

its free to subscribe and will take you all of 2 minutes!!

[tubby linton]

The article states that the Monarch scheme will be one of the top five largest schemes taken on by the PPF.
Surely it must be time for the Mantegazza (net worth $5bn) to pay some appropriate compensation to those that have made a significant contribution to their wealth.
Some of the Mantegazza toys:
http://www.superyachttimes.com/articles/Image/Editorial/Photo-of-the-Day/2010-04-23-Lady-Marina-big.JPG

[rockeye]

I've lost count of the number of friends and colleagues who have deeply regretted staying loyal to Monarch all these years.

The crews have had years of uncertainty and worry whilst the family have bled it dry and engineered a sale , ( or was it a sale ) forced new terms and conditions upon staff, some of whom cannot now afford to stay in the UK , driven the pension fund to PPF, despite the company NOT being insolvent, yet walked away extremely wealthy and shrugged off all responsibility towards their loyal and dedicated staff, some of whom have lost > 60% of their pension with little or no time to recover anything for their retirement.

I know of staff who after more than 20 years of loyal service were simply sent a p45 and final pay settlement in the post with not even a letter of thanks or recognition.

I believe some crews have hatched a plan to buy 30 lorries to take on Eddie Stobart !

[FLY BY WIRE]

Actually, I think the plan is to hire 30 trucks from Eddie Stobart, fill them with manure, and drive them down to Monaco to fill the 'Lady Marina'
Quid pro Quo.:)

[mesh]

November VR's to return 1st January, you couldn't make it up. Nice Christmas bonus for them :)

[High-higher]

Announced today they're taking on 12 newly qualified Oxford graduates immediately, each forking out 30k, couldn't make that up either...well, actually you could.

[Pin Head]

So to sum up. They let 50 pilots go and they are now rehiring them!

[brakedwell]

The bean counters have missed a trick here. Forget the redundant pilots. 50 Cadets @ £30k each would have made them £1500000 :(

[hapzim]

Not quite Pinhead, all CR's / demotions cancelled, this is just to fill the gap of people leaving of their own accord, as when the turbulence started CV's went out and offers came back. Maybe a few more required yet.

[A4]

But presumably people were happy to put up with all the negatives before....otherwise they would already be in the ME without having their hand forced? I know of some who have made the leap and HATE it and are actively looking to return (some already in hold pools).

I sympathise with those who have no choice (I've been made redundant before but managed to stay in the UK) - and I wish you nothing but luck and good fortune.

[ATIS]

All recent leavers have a 4yr right to return clause, so a few can goto the sandpit, make a load of money and return to their previous seniority level. Albeit initially in the RHS.

I seriously doubt those leaving for BA will return though.

[The Mixmaster]

Anyone on the inside got any gen with regard this job posting?

First Officer Recruitment with Monarch | 1401408524 (http://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/1401408524/first-officer-recruitment/?TrackID=374506&deviceType=Desktop#sc=mobileweb&me=mobile&cm=1401408524)

If you click through to their site there's actually no link to the application. How is life in MON post the Greybull bailout? I'm well aware the t's and c's are nowhere near what they used to be, but day to day has there been much change in rostering and quality of work/life balance etc. Cheers in advance :ok:

[Superpilot]

Last comms from HR pasted below:

Subject : MONARCH 2014/2015 PILOT RECRUITMENT
Sender : *****************
Date Posted : 05-Oct-2014 ********


Good morning

I hope you are well and know its been some time since you received any communication from us. We are now writing to
advise you there will be no further recruitment taking place for the remainder of 2014 or early 2015 due to some
restructuring taking place in the business, therefore, your details will now remain on hold for a period of 12 months
after which time any new pilot recruitment/vacancies will need to be reapplied for via your online accounts. Should
you have found alternative employment since your original application, I would be most grateful if you could advise me
accordingly so that we may keep our records up to date.

We are sorry to disappoint you but should the situation change we will of course be back in contact with you. In the
meantime, if you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact me but I thank you for your continued
interest in the Monarch Group.

Regards

M****************

[Alsacienne]

Good morning

I hope you are well and know its been some time since you received any communication from us.

This sounds very strange ... lacks punctuation (its been) plus grammar tense (it has been), plus the opening 'I hope you are well'.

The sender seems to be dancing between 'I' and 'we/our' later on in the communication, and it all sounds very bland.

Are you SURE that this came from Monarch or has their HR department been taking lessons from some Nigerian cousins?

[tubby linton]

The short answer to your question mixmaster would be No.We still have the same crap rostering system and random work patterns.
I am not surprised that HR have cocked up the application process. The shambles they created over the last few months and crass distrubution of emails to those who were facing compulsory redundancy must have made them the laughing stock of the airline industry.

If the HR director had any professional pride she should have taken responsibility for her department's failures and resigned but she contimues to oversee her failing department. Transferring the entire department to Lagos would be an improvement.

The letter above is genuine and reminds me of an email that was sent on behalf of the Chief Pilot a few months ago to the pilots.It is an accurate representation of the ability of the departments which have failed to make the company profitable yet somehow cling onto their jobs.

The next event for the pilots is the mass transfer to part year working and another pay cut (10%)in May.
You can probably get a feeling for the current level of morale from this post.

[ZeBedie]

I think it's a further 15 % pay cut. And yes, morale is through the floor.

[tubby linton]

Zebedie is correct-15.4% reduction on salaries.I would not be surprised if Monarch try to offer any new joiners even worse terms and conditions.

[mesh]

Nope, she will probably get a medal

[Superpilot]

Less than 2 years to go from one of the most sought after employers to one to avoid.

[FANS]

A completely different business now - is the 15% paycut a surprise?

[tubby linton]

The 15% is not a surprise as it reflects the move to part year working, but it is the second pay cut in less than a year. For senior pilots this amounts to a total cut of 45%. The airline is now recruiting pilots to replace some of those it paid to leave the business in the last few months.

[brakedwell]

Even senior pilots will be on pay to fly if this goes on much longer :ugh:

[RHINO]

Tubby Linton, that is not strictly correct. There are people still to leave in April with the redundancy payoff however before they go we will have recruited.....

Right off to find the big picture...:sad:

[ATIS]

Personally I believe/hope that we'll be back to 100% by winter 2016. The bleeding of cash had to be halted in these winter months, and unfortunately the staff were sitting ducks, easy targets. :{

Our saviours are going to need a return on their investment. So winter schedules are required to be built up in the name of efficiency. I'm sure pilots will then need to fly 900hrs per yr.

But then again, I could be completely wrong:ugh:

[tubby linton]

Rhino, I Was referring to the current shortage of FOs against the FTE requirement ,without any additions of pilots still to leave. I am not sure how many are swimming in the BA holding pool but I forsee a constant requirement to recruit replacments for them over the next twelve months. The training department are going to be very busy.

[flydog]

So, as per the advert via flight Int, are they hiring right now or not?

[MonarchOrBust]

Based on the information going around concerning pay cuts, I think we're about to see the first ever Airbus Direct Entry First Officer position paying less than £35,000. Take home pay £2,000 per month. What a 3 year London bus driver takes home.

[Waldo]

Yes they are trying to recruit!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Tubby perhaps it would have better if mon had gone bust for the likes of you. One suspects the ground staff have Also lost their jobs and had pay cuts. It's also hard for them to get other jobs perhaps as easily as the pilots. One thing for sure is they will all be looking over their shoulder for the grim reaper coming again whilst you ll just moan about your rubbish roster! ....

[gorter]

A friend of mine works in Monarch HQ in a middle management role and quite frankly he's depressed. He's constantly arguing with his wife and being short with his kids. All because he's terrified he's going to lose his job. I don't think it's a fun place for anyone right now.

[tubby linton]

Mister Angry, I think that you have misconstrued my various posts. I am not sure why you think that I would have been better off if the company had failed.
I would imagine that a ground person at Luton ,and I know a lot of them personally, could have walked straight into another job with the orange brigade for probably the same salary. Some members of the crew training and rostering departments have done just this. I doubt that many members of the ground staff have lost 45% of their salary and almost half of their expected pension, as I have.

My roster has not really changed over the last few years. It is produced by a poor quality computer programme and is subject to constant change, unlike the fixed patterns you probably enjoy.

As part of the restructure the airline has abandoned ad-hoc flying because nobody in the back offices of Luton can get it right.The airline has only been doing them for 47 years but we still cock them up and lose money.

For example our Flight Ops Technical group only work office hours and refuse to answer the phone during lunchtimes. It doesn't matter that you are stuck down route needing some abnormal performance figures due to an unserviceability. Please call, back at 2pm is the standard response.
These sort of inefficiencies need correcting.

At the last count almost 25% of the flightdeck contingent have left the business and the remainder have taken draconian pay cuts. I do not believe that the ground staff in Luton have had to face such life changing changes in circumstance.

I am not sure why I am writing this to justify my position but Mister Angry if you can offer me a well paying pilot job in the UK with good terms and conditions I will take you up on your offer. In the meantime please give all the unfortunate employees some empathy as the situation they face has been foisted upon them by some very unscrupulous former owners who have sallied off in their super yacht having royally :mad: their employees.

[kick the tires]

For example our Flight Ops Technical group only work office hours and refuse to answer the phone during lunchtimes. It doesn't matter that you are stuck down route needing some abnormal performance figures due to an unserviceability.

Don't you guys have the toughbook? Us Orange chaps are using them more and more, e.g. Mel items are selected and gives us instant performance figures for any unserviceability. How can you call for figures? Do they fax or email them to someone so you have a hard copy before you depart? After 2pm of course!!

[tubby linton]

Don't you guys have the toughbook? Us Orange chaps are using them more and more, e.g. Mel items are selected and gives us instant performance figures for any unserviceability. How can you call for figures? Do they fax or email them to someone so you have a hard copy before you depart? After 2pm of course!!



Just imagine a 1960s flightdeck where paper is king. The airline wasted £2m on an efb based upon mobile phone technology for updating. Despite being told by numerous external sources that it would never work, the major project manager persevered, often changing items of the hardware himself without any technical qualifications. We are now left with some very expensive ipad sized chart holders we afix the paper charts to.
We still get a paper loadsheet and consult a paper manual for performance figures. If you need any abnormal performance you make a call on the usually absent or dead aircraft mobile phone, hoping that it is during office hours and somebody will answer the phone.

[IcePack]

Well said Tubby. The truth is often swept under the carpet, nice to see it getting aired. Hope the new owners are taking note. (They need to know)

[ATIS]

Gorter, as indicated above middle management are now probably accountable for failures within their depts. Previously they were not, EFB project being the prime example. I truly hope your mate is safe in their position.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

In the meantime please give all the unfortunate employees some empathy as the situation they face

Tubby - the intent of my posting was to ask you to give some empathy to the staff that provide the crap rosters....

I've had more airline failures and the like over the years, when this happens you tend to look at airline life slightly differently e.g. job security means a lot so i'll work as hard as I can mostly free of charge to keep it going.

Sadly I have to admit also that you may be correct because a x % pay reduction xxx pilots is a lotta money whereas a x % pay cut for a few Office Staff = not a lot.
I therefore refer to my other thoughts that in any other job in terms of pay a F/O would be a Middle Manager, a Captain a Director, and a TRE the owner!

I sincerely hope that MON pull through and that T+C are restored for all Staff or as MON prob hope get some cheaper ones in at the bottom of scale

[JaxofMarlow]

Lots of cut and paste from this thread on the Monarch Complaints Facebook page.

[Superpilot]

Just for your info guys, the ad was live yesterday for at least 6 hours then got pulled down again or the application system is down. At the same time no email updates for those still in the hold for interviews. Something brewing, though not sure what and when (not that I'm interested anymore).

[Foniac]

Still there....

https://oracle.monarch.co.uk/OA_HTML/OA.jsp?page=/oracle/apps/irc/candidateSelfService/webui/VisVacDispPG&OAHP=IRC_EXT_SITE_VISITOR_APPL&OASF=IRC_VIS_VAC_DISPLAY&akRegionApplicationId=821&transactionid=629810474&retainAM=N&addBreadCrumb=RP&p_svid=4948&p_spid=191283&oapc=6&oas=C76CL0h_Qfk3vdKqtv-OPQ..

[111KAB]

Monarch pilots? pensions slashed in move to PPF | Money | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/jan/10/monarch-pilots-pensions-slashed)

[ATIS]

So where exactly are these type rated guys gonna come from now?

[maxed-out]

Cyprus Airways?

[JaxofMarlow]

and Wizzzzzzz.

[Enzo999]

I am sure they will get thousands of applications, what a crazy profession this is!

[FANS]

The pilots in the Guardian article have been made promises that were not kept.

However, for Monarch's pension fund to be paying out £70k/year pensions from age 55 is completely unaffordable for an airline today.

[CPR]

Don't forget this is real money, that the individual pilot has paid in over his / her working life, out of earned income. It is a savings scheme, and if it was left on deposit in a bank/building society and not returned in full, there would be an investigation and public uproar.
It is not like the public sector pension paid out of tax payers contributions (ponzi scheme), but earnt money put away and unable to draw on until reaching the plan/retirement age.

[Love_joy]

I hear through the grapevine that there is a four year right of return to those who left under the voluntary program, with no loss of seniority.

If that's true, who in their right mind would consider Monarch anything other than another stepping stone right now. In four years time you might have all these pilots jumping back in, and above you.

I genuinely wish you all well in there, a lot of my friends are trying to make a go of it

[Enzo999]

Love Joy, you are correct about the right to return and speaking as someone staying at Monarch it makes me sick.

You talk about Monarch being a "Steping stone", can I ask you to what? Other than BA what is better? I have looked and can't find anything!

[ATIS]

A fair number of FOs are off to BA. Cpts are off to EZY, I seriously doubt these guys will return. Yes they will retain seniority, but Cpts will return as FOs until a vacancy arises.

Quite possibly the few that are off to EK, will make a bucket load of cash and return.

[WHYEYEMAN]

Love Joy, you are correct about the right to return and speaking as someone staying at Monarch it makes me sick.

You talk about Monarch being a "Steping stone", can I ask you to what? Other than BA what is better? I have looked and can't find anything!

Surely almost any airline is better than Monarch right now given the uncertainties over its' future. Who in their right mind would choose to work at Monarch over BA, EZY, Thompson, Jet 2 and I would even go as far as to say Thomas Cook and Ryanair! EZY's Gatwick operation is well over twice the size of the future Monarch. How exactly are they going to compete in the same market?

[FANS]

The day a turnaround fund took over was the day that Monarch would either be sold in the next few years (or go bust).

So there will be further changes at Monarch, but if you're LHS LGW based, you're choice is only really EZY DEC.

One thing we often forget is if you've worked somewhere 10 years+, moving companies is rarely what you want.

[Enzo999]

If only life was that simple. Yes BA is better but guess what I did not get through. EZY are not recruiting and if they do will be for a flexi crew position followed by a 38k a year second officer job (which as and adult I can't afford to do), Ryan air have not recruited non rated FOs for ever and if they did would expect you to pay for a rating and would pay you by the hour, Jet2 well my wife works in London my kids are happy down south and again I have the wrong rating, Thompson yes great I will take it only problem is they have not recruited for non rated for years.

Seems like I am out of options. Too many people on here that have obviously not spent much time job hunting.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

Enzo999 - easyJet are recruiting and they are not offering flexicrew positions. If you are willing to work in OPO or LIS for a few years, then the job could be yours. Buy this week's Flight International.

[JaxofMarlow]

I think you will find that Enzo999 has already spent years away from the UK and has already said his wife's income is London based and has young children so OPO and LIS are not options at the moment. His point was, in the UK there are is little better than Monarch (except BA) for a married man wife children and financial commitments. Emirates, Etihad and Qatar are good paying options but he has been there, done that and had the stew (not pork).

[Enzo999]

Thanks, booking my flight to Lisbon now; I mean who cares about being a husband and father anyway!

Sorry for my down beat attitude, I am simply trying to point out that the state of the industry has left many people such as myself with very little option but to stay and hope with all we have that it works. So it's not entirely useful for people that obviously have a nice secure UK job to come on this forum slagging Monarch off, we all know they are fighting a loosing battle but as I have explained many of us are trapped.

[Facelookbovvered]

With few acceptable options your decision is made for you and at least you have a job, keep current and get to fight another day.

There is a vast number of people in this industry who are now thinking that perhaps with the benefit of hindsight or a bit more foresight that its not really for them. I fly with a good number of late 20, early 30 guys who are simply burnt out with the lack of life style or any life of their own, debts, failed relationships and the rest.

Its particularly difficult for the Monarch Guys, because they'd bought into the myth of we are different at Monarch with Billionaire owners happy to bankroll the losses because its all smoke and mirrors and its not really a loss anyway and the management fed this :mad: to the troops so one can only assume they'd bought into it too??

Everyone with half a brain knows that despite the adjusted cost base, walk away from the pensions, low cost focus the chance of surviving is a best limited, they simply will not achieve the scale required to compete in their chosen market place against the big 4 pan European Lo cost airlines, low fuel prices will buy some time with most airlines, but not Ryanair hedged at prices close to double the current spot price, but these positions will have unwound by the end of the 1st quarter anyway.

From what i hear the rostering protocols at ZB are still generous, personally i think they will need to revisit the productivity before 2015 is out.

So sit tight and keep your eyes wide open, next winter will be very tough

[fade to grey]

Truth is there are not many alternate options in the UK.
I heard about a guy from GsS , who when it folded, said screw it and became a taxi driver....

I always try not to live anywhere near the salary in case I should have to do the same and I've been made redundant twice already

[ZeBedie]

The fact that some Monarch pilots are wanting to go to jet2 tells you something.

[Deano777]

Is it likely Monarch may have to dip into their non type rated hold pool this year? What's the feeling?

[rockeye]

As regards Monarch pilots leaving to Jet2, this in my opinion is a very sensible and logical move, as they are a good company to work for.

I wouldn`t knock Jet2 as they are a very sharp airline with first rate crew, a keen eye on cost and wastage, an excellent commercial department and a training centre/department many larger Airlines would wish for.

[squeaker]

Just don't ask any questions about disciplinaries or Union bashing!
The guys leaving Monarch for Jet2 are ex Bmi Baby skippers who were FOs at Mon and will get DEC at Jet2.
Unless they decide to go to RYR instead, of course...

[Facelookbovvered]

Most have opted for FR and got the Midlands bases they wanted, they start before month end and J2 think they are still in the pool..........no bond, direct employ, salaried in full from day one, no half pay during line training, what would you do??

J2 are good but slow and have no idea of the looming shortage of experienced LHS 737 drivers...........FR need 700 pilots this year, only a handful of 737 rated LHS peeps at Monarch.

[ZeBedie]

When I mentioned ZB people going to LS, I wasn't trying to be negative about jet2's commercial success or the professionalism of the organisation, but wanted to make the point that pay at ZB has fallen so far that jet2 is now a serious option for us. And it's not just F/O's seeking a DEC either. In fact our pay cut has opened up a whole world of choice for us ;)

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

The guys leaving Monarch for Jet2 are ex Bmi Baby skippers who were FOs at Mon

Not quite right there I'm afraid, the first one in was a MON skipper off the Airbus who had been at MON for 17 years.

[Honiley]

I'll take a guess you're one of Mr Lakes Ex's! In other words, have yet to experience a quality employer! Well run airline?!

Leaving MON I do get, but to the Asylum in the North!?! Desperate! I'd put money on that move been regretted before you get a full salary...

MON has a business plan issue, but Jet2 is no different, aging fleet that are owned and worthless, a VERY seasonal programme and no money! Lots on here that have been sold and bought the PR machine of within Low Quality House: "controlled expansion/constant profit" - backed into a corner and take a closer look at the numbers! It isn't rosy, and fleet renewal will require new investment...

Is it Tuesday yet, can't wait for Tailwind!!!!!

[1013 with altsel]

Why do you hate jet2 so much Honiley?

[LNIDA]

In 5 years time Ryanair will have around 600 aircraft, easyJet 400, Norwegian 250 and Vueling 150+

These are of course pan European airlines rather than UK market only based, Jet2 maybe a 100? and Monarch maybe 35? personally i think Greybull will be out of ZB by then, with no future pension black hole and T&C more or less industry standard it will be a lot easier to off load, but J2 won't be a buyer IMHO

[bluepilot]

1013, he hates it so much because he failed the selection and is stuck in Leipzig with DHL.

[MKY661]

Really hoping these rumours going round are not true :(

[Bestofficeintheworld]

What rumours might they be?

[750XL]

http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/476064-monarch-3-a-155.html#post9519936

[Enzo999]

What rumours might they be?

http://http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/monarch-airlines-denies-rumours-it-is-going-bust-amid-passenger-fears-a7329461.html

[BN2A]

Monarch airlines says flights operating as normal - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37469743)

:ok:

[MonarchOrBust]

They can say what they like. Just like the owners of Exel Airways did.

[A3301FD]

Monarch airline wins £165m investment from Greybull - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37628348)


Bit of relief for the employees...but is it just delaying the inevitable ?

[Wookey]

I dont think anyone invests £165m without a reasonable chance that it will show a return, however small. That return may of course be a sale or part sale to other interested parties - not possible if the assett is defunct due to lack of cash.
Anyway delighted for all at Monarch that the immediate future is clear.

[Twiglet1]

Bit of relief for the employees...but is it just delaying the inevitable ?

Let's see this time next year. Fingers crossed come on Monarch!

[i_spy]

Any knowledge as to why Monarch's CEO, Andrew Swaffield & Co. have incorporated a 'new scheduled passenger air transport' company?

[CPR]

Go to the other thread. It's all explained there and saves repeating yourself.

[Icejock]

Monarch have now enterd administration with all flights cancelled. Seems like the UK CAA will accommodate all return flights.

[CXKA]

Sad news for all at the airline.

[Callsign Kilo]

Massive sympathy to our Monarch friends. I know that means little at this torrid time however many will have their fingers crossed that things work out for you all in a timely and suitable manner.

[StopStart]

Horrible news for the crews and their families. Virgin Atlantic have an ongoing requirement (https://careers.virgin-atlantic.com/fe/tpl_virgin01.asp?s=4A515F4E5A565B1A&jobid=135067,3469488768&key=81514490&c=355787610256&pagestamp=selkvybjvmefwvwcpx) for Airbus pilots.
Good luck to all those affected.

[RAPA Pilot]

Sad News indeed. The job market seems quite bouyant at the moment so hopefully everyone will get re-employed. How many pilots work there?

[magicmick]

There's never a good time to lose one's job but the run up to Christmas is especially bad, I add my best wishes to all those affected (not just the pilots). If family life can handle with it, I believe that Wizz are also taking on crews, best wishes to all.

[a370]

Cathay Dragon (based Hong Kong for those Ex Monarchs who've previously not heard of it:)) are about to hire direct entry captains A330/A320. Plus, they need trainers, as 50% the incumbents are sycophantic psychopaths .
With that in mind, do enjoy your conversion and the way of the Dragon.:}

[michaelknight]

Virgin have setup a dedicated page for ZB drivers, best of luck to all.

https://careers.virgin-atlantic.com/fe/tpl_virgin01.asp?s=4A515F4E5A565B1A&jobid=135890,4874257665&key=81526273&c=455941230256&pagestamp=semsiypgteomqdnpnq

[speed_alive_rotate]

Virgin and Aer Lingus looking to talk to Monarch guys now. Two fantastic companies. Best of luck to all affected.

[gearlever]

Wow, good luck fellows.

[Chronus]

Any knowledge as to why Monarch's CEO, Andrew Swaffield & Co. have incorporated a 'new scheduled passenger air transport' company?

No actual knowledge, but speculation that they may be in the bidding for part of the business, free of all its liabilities.

The interesting bit is that the 2016 accounts were signed off on 1st September 2017 and filed on the 2nd and low and behold the company went belly up shortly thereafter, with just a little gobbledygook from its auditors about going concern.

So who are the biggest losers the taxpayer yet again. Out of whose purse the 110,000 pax will need to be repatriated and when they are back on home soil will have to use their otherwise redundant buckets and spades to dig deep and shovel the lost revenue back into the governments coffers. Not forgetting the fact that redundancy and unpaid holiday entitlement payments for 2000 employees will also require further excavation.

They should have taken it off life support at its previous coronary event in September 2016.

[kaikohe76]

Chronus,
You are wrong. The biggest loosers are the very many highly professional, dedicated & most of all loyal Monarch Crews & Staff, who have basically been shafted. Unfortunately all this counts for little these, not much honour or integrity about.

[Groundloop]

So who are the biggest losers the taxpayer yet again. Out of whose purse the 110,000 pax will need to be repatriated

Are you sure of this? Surely this is what the ATOL bond scheme with the CAA is for? I doubt the taxpayer is paying anything - just Goverment ministers twisting the facts trying to big thmeselves up as saviours of the "stranded".

[HZ123]

It sure comes back to the taxpayers in the end, doesn't it always!

[rog747]

totally wrong

the monarch repatriation is not paid out of your pockets nor any UK tax payer

the costs are all met from the air travel reserve fund (a Bond) set up after the Clarksons Court line collapse in 1974 (it was called TOSG then)

that collapse was big almost 50000 repatriated in 1974 - this is more than twice that

any air ticket and ATOL booking is costed with an amount into that when tour operators and airlines place their bond with the CAA

[HZ123]

Well its taxpayers if they choose to travel that pay the surcharge a sum that will now increase, and the CAA is funded in the main by the taxpayer is it not?

[Fire and brimstone]

No - it is not.

[All-The-Nines]

Wrong. Unlike many CAA's, the UK CAA is required to meet it's costs from those that it regulates (e.g. in the fees that they charge) - they don't receive money from the government.

[highfive]

Virgin have setup a dedicated page for ZB drivers, best of luck to all.

https://careers.virgin-atlantic.com/fe/tpl_virgin01.asp?s=4A515F4E5A565B1A&jobid=135890,4874257665&key=81526273&c=455941230256&pagestamp=semsiypgteomqdnpnq


Curious that VA should open their doors to Monarch Pilots when many other, much higher qualified pilots are either waiting an interview or have heard nothing (B787/ A330 rated guys )

Lets face it, the motivated guys left after the last hedge fund infusion. The remaining crew were either new wannabes or too old to care.

[renort]

Or Loyal. Maybe a trait VS are looking for.

[Chronus]

Well its taxpayers if they choose to travel that pay the surcharge a sum that will now increase, and the CAA is funded in the main by the taxpayer is it not?

I`d suggest a quick look see :


https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP1560%202017%20ARA_lowerresolution.pdf

Can you see anywhere there where the money is to come from.

[Black Pudding]

Dear pprune

Please forgive me if this is not allowed and delete if you feel the need, just wanted to let our comrades at Monarch know.

Qatar Airways Pilot Recruitment Open Day Gatwick & Manchester 9th and 11th October.

Gatwick 9th October, The Sofitel Airport Hotel, North Terminal, Gatwick Airport, N Terminal Approach, Horley, Crawley RH6 0PH, UK

Two sessions per day: 10:00 am & 13:00 pm

Manchester 11th October, The Radisson Blu Hotel, Chicago Ave, Manchester M90 3RA, UK

Two sessions per day: 10:00 am & 13:00 pm

Good luck with your destiny wherever that may take you

[rog747]

the air travel reserve fund set up by and used by the CAA to repatriate pax from collapsed tour operators and airlines and usually they have lodged a £££ bond - used to be TOSG tour operator study group - the travel trust
now ATOL and called the ATT Fund

https://www.caa.co.uk/ATOL-protection/Air-travel-trust/About-the-Air-Travel-Trust/


this is NOT funded by the UK tax payer - the ATT fund has a huge surplus

where do you get this nonsense from that its your hard earned money being spent - its not

it comes from this reserve fund and that in turn is funded by the airlines/holiday companies lodging a bond with the CAA which is money from sales of their tickets and holidays - a small % of each projected sale - its part of your protection when you buy an ATOL bonded tour or ticket

[Chronus]

Whilst Monarch customers who booked holiday packages are ATOL protected those who booked flights only are not. Reason, Monarch withdrew from flight-only protection last year.

Who is to pay for their repatriation.

[bafanguy]

I haven't read all 30+ pages of this thread to see if someone else has offered these links but I'll put them here for the Monarch folks.

I sure feel bad about what has happened having been in similar circumstance once myself. Best wishes to all of you affected:



https://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/9400.html

AviationJobs.Me Flight Crew: Virgin Atlantic Recruitment Fast Track Path for Monarch Pilots (http://www.aviationjobs.me/2017/10/virgin-atlantic-recruitment-fast-track-for-monarch-pilots.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+aviationjobs%2Frss+%28AviationJobsMe+Fl ight+Crew%29)

[Count of Monte Bisto]

highfive - not sure there are many 'much higher qualified pilots are either waiting an interview' than the Monarch guys. Many of them have flown the A300 and A330 for years as both Captains and FOs. They also have countless sectors on Airbuses to their name - a very useful quality for long haul guys when take-offs and landings are in short supply. They come from a culture very similar to Virgin and seem to be a perfect fit. If I was a Virgin manager and was running a recruitment drive, I would start with a host of unemployed ex-Monarch pilots. Win-win for everyone - how much better does it get?

[TitanCadetScheme]

At risk of censure, I am going to post the following:

Titan Airways are recruiting now for the following for our STN base.

Airbus Captains, LTC's and TRE's. Immediate start dates available;
Boeing 737 & 757 Captains and FO's - start dates late 2017/early 2018;
Airbus FO's - start dates later in 2017;
Cabin Crew - start dates early 2018;
Engineers;
Flight Ops General Manager (non flying/admin), and;
Safety and Compliance Risk Manager.

We will be in LGW at Holiday Inn, Horley on Tuesday 17th October and at STN Holiday Inn Express on Thursday 19th October for open days.

Please visit www.titan-airways.co.uk and select the careers tab. Upload your details and we will be in touch.

Also, check out our Facebook page - Titan Airways Careers.

Good luck to you all - we already look forward to seeing several former Monarch employees next week at selection.

[kaikohe76]

Count of Monte Bisto

You are absolutely right. The Monarch Airline I knew & I'm sure it's no different now, was one of highly professional & most loyal Aircrew & other Staff. Qualities that any Airline about to hire Staff themselves, would be glad to have on board.

[favete linguis]

Virgin First Officer – Monarch Pilot Managed Path

https://careers.virgin-atlantic.com/fe/tpl_virgin01.asp?s=4A515F4E5A565B1A&jobid=135890,4874257665&key=81526273&c=455941230256&pagestamp=semsiypgteomqdnpnq

[slowjet]

RENORT : "Loyal" ! Absolute baloney. No place in modern commercial aviation. Ask pilots from British Eagle, Court Line, Channel, Laker, Air Europe, Da, Moretons, BU(CI)A, BIA Air, Caledonian, BUA...........aaaaaagh ! Crikey, and I have hardly started ! Oh, and loyal to who when "your" company is taken over or merged with something else painted on the side ? Switch "loyalties". Yeah, you probably would !

[Crandons]

TUI Airways (formerly Thomson) recruitment now open.

Pilot Recruitment - TUI (http://tuijobsuk.co.uk/work-at-tui-travel/thomson-airways/pilots/pilot-recruitment/)

[FAStoat]

I seem to remember when that great bloke Don Richardson was the Boss,everyone was loyal,and most in the Industry would have swopped either seat for the same seat with Monarch.As an earlier poster put it,it was the best job around,but that seems to have been a while ago!What a real shame such a nice Outfit was shafted by those in Suisse!Reminds me of when SwissAir went bust and stuffed their Creditors,they became White Tails and promptly restarted on lower Ts&Cs,calling themselves SWISS:-So What I Am Still SWISS!What a Bugger of an Industry you lot now have to endure,having Bean Counters that ruin your lives,instead of Highly Experienced Ex Pilots,who know exactly how to run and keep an Airline HAPPY!

[rog747]

Whilst Monarch customers who booked holiday packages are ATOL protected those who booked flights only are not. Reason, Monarch withdrew from flight-only protection last year.

Who is to pay for their repatriation.

anyone abroad now with a monarch ticket whether atol covered or not up to and including the 15th Oct will be flown home on the same day as booked with Monarch and usually back to their same airport in the UK at no cost by the CAA's arranged flights
if an airport is changed say from LGW to STN then the CAA has arranged transport back

pax due to fly home after 16 Oct will have to rebook and pay for new flights themselves - (even with an Atol - those protected folk will have to rebook and claim costs from CAA)
they should get their money back from their own credit/debit card company for the loss of their Monarch tickets.
if they have travel insurance with an end user or airline failure cover then the new flight costs will be covered as will any hotel/meal expenses which can be claimed for plus delay cover too.

pax with flights any booked out to travel From the UK - same applies if no atol certificate held on the booking - they have lost their Monarch booking and money - so they need to claim this back from bank card companies and or travel insurances if they have suitable cover.
if they have an ATOL certificate then they can claim their money back from the CAA.

[Matey]

The following is extracted from an email to TOM pilots from the Plot Manager responsible for recruitment:

"We are advertising for all Type Rated Positions as well as Non Type Rated.

External Comms Campaign Link: https://goo.gl/bPkzk4

An additional link is also being created & will be sent to the Monarch HR & Outplacement Support Team shortly later today.

A number of you have emailed me today re Monarch friends who are TR but very low hour (our criteria is 330 hrs on Type) – please advise them to apply through the Type Rated Link. If they don’t have a 75/76/73 or 787 TR they MUST apply as Non Type Rated

Hope this is helpful, Kathryn"

[kaikohe76]

FA Stoat,
You mentioned the late Don Richardson from Monarch. An absolute genuine & lovely gentleman throughout, who was a geat help to me during my 25 years with the company.

[esscee]

Used to be "Lions led by donkeys". However now we know that recently they were "Lions led by ponies", polo ponies!

[highfive]

highfive - not sure there are many 'much higher qualified pilots are either waiting an interview' than the Monarch guys. Many of them have flown the A300 and A330 for years as both Captains and FOs. They also have countless sectors on Airbuses to their name - a very useful quality for long haul guys when take-offs and landings are in short supply.

Nothing unique about countless sectors on airbuses, any short haul bus pilot has this.

However, my point is that there is an extensive application procedure to go through with most airlines, inc VA. To then fast track a bunch of pilots, simply based on the fact they have time on type and are unemployed, goes against the philosophy of their selection process. A lot of Ex Monarch captains will have never experienced psychometric testing, as it was not common in the industry 20 years ago. A fast track process indicates that you have a higher chance of success than a similar candidate who has recently applied, with similar practical job experience.

Finally, if Monarch was still afloat, few of its pilots would be applying for VA, Easy et al. Wouldn't it be better, in the long run, for a company to take a pilot who is actually motivated & applying for a position in that company, not simply because they are on hard times? Several current Mid East B787 pilots are awaiting their VA start dates. Should they be under cut because another pilot is allowed fast track?

[Start Fore]

Yes.

That's fair enough in my book.

Surely a Captain with 25 years experience is preferable to some snowflake who's practiced loads of online psychometric tests..

But, but, it's not FAIR! Spoken like a true snowflake.

[speedrestriction]

Highfive,

I would suggest that it is an entirely positive thing that UK companies have seen fit to make mutually beneficial arrangements to keep recently redundant UK pilots in a job.

If I were employed by a middle eastern carrier the theme of "undercutting" is one I would well and truly avoid. Middle eastern carriers do not compete on a level playing field with legacy carriers. It is hypocritical to selectively cry foul when it suits your personal interests.

[Reversethrustset]

I think the agenda lies at the feet of the poster. At the end of the day who gives a squat about psychometric testing, online tests, application limitations and group exercises etc, we all know it's a scheme to eliminate candidates and to stop a certain demographic applying. The restrictions are there because, well because they can afford to be fussy. You may not be old enough to remember but there used to be an equally good way of recruiting pilots, it involved talking to them for an hour to spot the undesirable, then stick them in the sim quickly. Believe it or not this avenue still works and of course a year x captain wouldn't apply to Virgin to be a first officer, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't want to work for them, I also would like to apply there, but I'd rather the guys who have no income coming in had the opportunity first, you can't begrudge them that. There is no dodgy ground, everyone has the right to rebuild their careers and start afresh.

[Reversethrustset]

Who said they had priority? All that's happened is they have been fast tracked through the application process, I'm sure nobody will be recruited if the VS bods don't like them.

[Superpilot]

If you can advertise a job that asks you to not bother applying unless you're a graduate from a red brick university then by the same token you can have one that prefers candidates from a certain commercial background. Airlines currently advertising fast track applications from Monarch pilots:

Virgin
EasyJet
Norwegian
Ryanair (yuk)

I think Emirates are about to launch a targeted campaign too.

[Enzo999]

I can see both sides to this argument. On on hand yes it nice companies are looking to recruit Monarch guys on the other hand if I was currently sat in the hold pool at Virgin and was now being pushed aside in favour of Mon pilots I would feel very hard done by. Monarch's failure was a tragedy but let's be honest not an entirely unpredictable one. The guys who stayed did so fully aware of the potential risks but chose to remain anyway, to now prioritise them over other people strikes as slightly unfair to me but hey since when has this industry been fair.

[sia sniffer]

to now prioritise them over other people strikes as slightly unfair to me but hey since when has this industry been fair.

Fair? Never. In my day it was always recruitment based on a hand shake , a squadron recco, or a a nudge & a wink.
If you weren't in , you were out on your a$s.

Now the industry is so regimented in its bias towards
psyco based recruitment.
But , If a company has a ridgid recruitment process , surely to then invite all and sundry to fast track around this character based assesment is belittling those that have done it through the regular , none fast track, channels ?

Through the back door is never good. Although it was a common way into an airline, based on knowing Roger from way back , hopefully that nepatism has been reduced.

But its the same old same. Ex Mon Training Capt Pete knows Recruitment manager Jim at XYZ and by fast tracking , its a way of saying , we know youre a good fella, now come this way, no need for all that psyco namdey pandy nonesense.
Now , fancy a Sherry , old chap?

[kaikohe76]

Whether we like it or not, pysco evaluation has been part of the aviation world for many years & like CRM it is here to stay, it has to be lived with & is an integral part of day to day flying.

That said & absolutely no disrespect whatsover to the less experienced Chap or Lass, but if I was at 30W 390 on a dark night & it all went to worms, I would wish those at the pointed end, to have had many years of practical flying experience, over those having done a few pysco tests & not as much of the practical flying.

[Cliff Secord]

I wouldn't go getting all excited about VS. I read, somewhere, half their about 40 current slots will be for Monarch guys and girls. I'm sure Vs will still be tempted by rated on their aircraft. Makes sense. Unless they actually needed and had the training capacity for all 40 of them tomorrow, waiting 3 months notice period to take on someone for a quick OCC and line flights for a 78 rated person makes more sense than fully rating a 737 pilot tomorrow. VS know that. Chill people. It's good they have options (mon pilots)....

[Meester proach]

Plenty of options for them...

I hope they don't have to go anywhere rubbish like small planet...

Historically I was told VA didn't look favourably on people who are redundant applying as they should be super keen to join, and not just because they no longer have a job. Maybe a change of policy ?

[lederhosen]

There is a world of difference between the selection process required for inexperienced and experienced pilots. There will of course be a range of abilities, but the process is a lot simpler and if they are type rated much shorter and of course cheaper. The question why they are looking for a job also does not arise with the Monarch pilots. So all in all they are ideal ready entries.

[Enzo999]

Who says the non Monarch guys in the hold pool are non rated? Any one of them could have left to go to Virgin any time they liked over the last 3 years but chose not to, seems unfair to me that people who might well be rated and actually want the VR job might miss out. But as I said it's not a fair industry.

[Like a G-LEX]

I am a bit confused Enzo, is there actually a hold pool of people who have passed selection at VS within the last 3 years? I only ask as I know they have recruited plenty of people into the 330 over the last year who went through selection and offered jobs with no hold?

So if that's the case then I wouldn't vent my anger at the monarch guy's as this was happening way before that companies demise.

[Enzo999]

I am not venting anger I am simply saying that "if" rated interested people are being sidelined in favour of Monarch guys that seems incredibly unfair given the total lack of interest any of those guys have shown in working for Virgin over the last few years If that's not the case then no problem (but there are plenty of people on the VR thread that are saying this is happening). As to wether VR have a hold pool I have no idea, but would be incredibly surprised if they don't.

[Enzo999]

Again not getting up set!

[Cliff Secord]

I'd say not enough is known to start getting all het up. I'd think (guessing here!) that an airline making a show of soaking up pilots from a high profile collapse is good for business. It brings the company into the press and looks good to people. Thomson, VS. They've had their names attached to some high profile media because of it. Of course it makes sense to recruit the very Mon experienced guys immediately if your training availability allows, as they're already valued in the industry and come with years of flying.

But, we don't know the truth and I'd say the truth actually lies someone between. I say again I bet a dollar that behind the scenes, the "slots" available to Mon guys will actually be quite small. Vs will prob advertise quietly again for rated as like I say, if they've got to wait months for training availability it would be easier and cheaper to take on an equally experienced, but rated 78 person. It doesn't matter how experienced an A320 guy is. I think the misunderstanding lies because lots has been made of "recruiting mon guys" but bare in mind I think, a lot of that is opportunism not to miss out on the immediate availability that fits the slots anyone wants to fill straight away mixed with media show. Airlines still will desire the cheapest and most efficient option balanced with timing for their operation.

Instead of worrying about if things are fair, it's just times like these as pilots we need to show solidarity for all our greater goods long term and that includes supporting fellow tradesmen in their plight. I'm alright Jack mentality has already tooled this industry.

[PA28161]

What you have to realise is that the people/organisations which own airlines be it DHL, FedEx, TCX, BA, TUI, Jet2 et al are companies with shareholders just the same as any other public/private company. The board of directors prime objective is to build shareholder value. Profit for the company so that dividend can be paid and a return on shareholder investment. If that means taking TR pilots over and above cadets, and low hour candidates to shorten the recruitment process and save money then that is exactly what they will do. It's been said many times that airlines want experienced pilots, FO's SFO's and more desirably captains. Not recruits they have to spend money on training. Sad fact of life but there it is!

[GKOC41]

Any updates on Monarch Pilots (and Ground Staff) getting new jobs, heard some positive vibes and UK Airlines trying to do their bit?

[tubby linton]

Rumour control is that 380 out of the 420 pilots have jobs. The Luton office staff all seem to be re-employed. I know a lot of southern based cabin crew have gone to Virgin, Sail, and Easyjet. I have not heard about re-employment at other bases

[PA28161]

Any updates on Monarch Pilots (and Ground Staff) getting new jobs, heard some positive vibes and UK Airlines trying to do their bit?
A couple of guys I know have secured FO jobs with Emirates and a couple of cabin crew girls working as sales agents for large housing development company

[ZeBedie]

That figure of 420 will include those who are without a current medical - long term sick, so they won't be looking for a job and nor will those close to retirement age. So it sounds like pretty much all who wanted a job, have got one?

[Trossie]

... so they won't be looking for a job and nor will those close to retirement age.Incorrect on the last bit.

[ZeBedie]

Should I have included a phrase like 'by and large' or 'for the most part', to accommodate the pedants amongst us?