Monarch in turbulence

[More lookout]

Being pragmatic for a moment. It's dog eat dog out there. There are only limited oppurtunities for Airbus type rated pilots in the uk. BA - you've still got to be a BA bod and fit the type they want. Virgin aren't recruiting and Easyjet will pick and choose. Also none of these offer DECs. So for many the future is bleak, for many a future may become brighter in the long term. As for 757, it's Thomson or DHL. The days of chief pilots phoning their mate at xyz airways and asking to take on some pilots has gone. HR has taken over! I wish the best to all at Monarch; I suspect many will leave in the next year if an investor is found. Some have no choice but to stay and sweat it out. What we have to learn is that as pilots we've helped create a lot of our employment issues. P2f, MPL etc.

[HundredPercentPlease]

schadenfreude

Tom,

You have to understand what it was like back then, in the big orange world.

We had piles of new pilots arriving, on a really nasty zero-hours contract (in effect). Morale was low, and dissatisfaction was high.

Us oldies, though, did our best for these new pilots. While the company was financially shafting them, we treated them as well as any other new entrant. Possibly more so than usual, given the hardship, and the shared venom at the same target.

There were two groups, though. Those that recognised that they were inexperienced apprentices and they would have to put their head down and work through the difficult times, on the basis that better times were ahead. And those who screamed hate. Hate at the company, hate at the Captains, hate at CTC.

Many of those that hated got jobs at Monarch. And then they gloated and hated - possibly more so once they had a secure offer. They were very difficult to operate with. Some nice guys also got jobs with Monarch too.

In the mean time, we all got together and fixed the issue for these new pilots. Everyone did. BALPA, Captains, First Officers. We pulled as a team, and we ended up with a resolution that all parties are happy with (or equally unhappy, if you are a negotiation pessimist).

Now, we would be delighted to have the "good guys" back. But those haters, those that spat vile at those who were doing their best to help... well, we wish them well, but you have to understand that easyJet are unlikely to welcome them back. It's only a handful, but we remember them well. It's an old adage that you should never burn your bridges in aviation, but it is oh so true.

[go around flaps15]

Good post HundredPercentPlease. Our union members at Norwegian are trying to replicate that same feat i.e. BALPA, SEPLA, NASPA, NPU, Captains and FOs pulling together for a fair and sustainable career path. Make no mistake it won't be a walk in the park but as Norwegian are planning on being a significant player, particularly in LGW, it is vital for the industry in Europe that we get the right result.

Rumours are that our training department are in talks with CTC in relation to cadets. We have all seen what can happen with that and you guys at Easy know it all too well.

The terms and conditions that pilots at Easy fought for and achieved are the benchmark for what the pilot community at Norwegian want.

If we achieve what we are aiming for and those Airbus Neos do arrive on an apron (I'm not sure where but I'm hearing reports a few of them will), then that can only be good news for Monarch pilots that are unfortunate to be let go or find themselves out of work or in an undesirable part of the world.

I genuinely hope things work out in the end for Monarch. It will be a black day in this industry if they don't.

I for one have my fingers crossed.

[FANS]

I wouldn't be too harsh on the ex-EZY cadets, as many were young and some expected a utopian world once flying big jets.

Us oldies, though, did our best for these new pilots.

If you had done your best, they would never have been on those contracts.

[JosuaNkomo]

I wouldn't be too harsh on the ex-EZY cadets, as many were young and some expected a utopian world once flying big jets.


Tosh


1. They knew exactly what the contract entailed. They signed up to it.
2. Most were substandard operator's who struggled to land an aircraft.
3.There was enough advice out there BALPA,friends,these forums and word of mouth to dissuade them to commence training.
4. Most of them were more interested in their phones, social media, crew and their own needs than contributing to the duty.


Most of those who left will not be happy anywhere. They cut off their noses to spite their faces when they left a viable company to join a company which most in the business knew had serious issues.


Good luck to those who have an uncertain future but don't expect sympathy for those who jumped ship.

[lollo1753]

what about the guys without big jets dreams who have struggled for years to get a job in easy and are now placed in the holding pool probably forever and probably because the union will force easy to hire former monarch...sadness for them...

[mad_jock]

There was enough advice out there BALPA,friends,these forums and word of mouth to dissuade them to commence training.

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/403410-modular-v-integrated-merged-look-here-before-starting-new-thread.html

I think you will find that a lot of them were actively sold the product by one of your own on this site.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

Wise words from HundredPercentPlease. Some hard lessons about to be learnt here. Maybe easyJet is not now so bad after all - yesterday they just announced a big increase in dividends for all shareholders, and the conversion of options on 27 new jets to be delivered between 2015-2018. One of life's golden rules is that you never burn bridges (that applies to any job anywhere and is not exclusive to aviation). There are a few people who are having to relearn that the hard way.

[pitotheat]

I think it is true to say that many FOs who left easy to go to Monarch did so thinking they were somehow inflicting retribution on the company who would struggle to replace them. This as I pointed out to many at the time is not the reason to leave. Once they had given in their notice many were a pain to fly with and those of us left behind were frankly relieved to see the back of them. Tragic though it is for these FOs it would be a mistake for them to return. Many did burn their bridges and would not get pass their initial contact with the company. For all it is a harsh and early lesson in the big nasty world of how big decisions should be taken for the right reason. Furthermore, in this small world don't burn your bridges and be nice to your colleagues on your rise through a company because you will see them again on your way down.
Having said the above the ex easyjet pilots now being made redundant from Monarch are only a small minority of those now seeking jobs and I hope easyjet will take the opportunity to take some experienced and well trained pilots offering fair contracts. However I fear they will be more likely to be offered NAP OPO or AMS contracts.
Good luck to all.

[MaximumPete]

There's an old saying: Never kick your First Officers a**se, he might be your next Chief Pilot

And I've seen it happen.....the Chief Pilot bit

[Thadius]

The youngsters will be ok , the people we should be looking after are the more senior guys who haven't got time to rebuild their pensions , can't move their families to the middle east & need to pay the mortgage & school fees.

Would those guys at easy put the pressure on their management to soak up experienced crews from Monarch should a buyout be unsuccessful & help the industry return to respecting people's long term commitment as opposed to accelerating the deterioration into a 'job' many of us find less & less palatable .

[ZeBedie]

In my experience at Monarch, the ex easy F/O's have, without exception been well trained, competent and professional. I have not heard complaints from anyone else either.

[kick the tires]

ZeBedie - no one has ever questioned their competency have they?

Their shortcomings relate to their attitude and lack of life skills/maturity, witnessed by the many posters on here.

Hopefully many will read this thread and reflect.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Grass is always green
The saddest thing is in the old days many pilots came up the ladder from flying school, to night freight on a Piper 31, to turboprop, to Jets and those guys never committed the cardinal sin of slating their previous employer - they were always grateful and the airlines wished them well as they moved on. They flew on days off for nothing apart from the love of the job, never mentioned the fatigue word, you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours.
Now days that doesn't seem to be the case, its low hour Pilot one day, arguing the toss on a roster change the next day and why am i not a Captain the next.
I guess buying their rating gives them the right, but i know who i'd rather be dealing with...........:\

[MaxPower2011]

Whilst I am sure that many of the points being raised about ex-easyJet First officers (that is what the are/where, they ceased to be Cadets once employed just as a Captain ceases to be a first officer on promotion) are indeed valid, there is a time and a place to bring these to the fore and this is not it. Only a bitter, gloating or I told you so attitude would lead anyone to post this kind of thought on this thread.

As has been highlighted on numerous occasions, these people are facing losing their livelihoods, many with mortgages to pay and young families to support. I suspect that most of the negative posters were never in a similar position to some of the FO's that left easy for Monarch. Whilst I could never condone the level of unprofessionalism being described, I'm sure most would agree that the terms these guys were working under we're terrible and most had no choice.

A commonly used phrase is that attitude reflects leadership. In my time at easy, I seem to remember a high degree of negativity been prevalent throughout. Was there not a survey that revealed that morale was potentially destructive to the business. I flew with captains who's attitude towards the company bordered on the unprofessional, (anyone remember flap full Fridays?) is it any wonder that some of the guys at the bottom being shafted the most should show a degree of dissent.

I regret that I have been drawn into this debate, however that the thread has been hijacked in such a way as to stick it to guys who left easyJet feeling they were bettering themselves, but now find themselves in a dire situation, is plain wrong and there are experienced people that should know better, who should be ashamed of themselves. Yes some guys may have been immature, arrogant or even unprofessional, but now is neither the time or the place to be saying I told you so.

Let's ditch the thread creep and the sniping and get back to the topic in hand.

Good luck to all

[BitMoreRightRudder]

They flew on days off for nothing apart from the love of the job, never mentioned the fatigue word, you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours.

That's lovely but do you think you might be referring to an era that is as outdated as it is irrelevant? Fatigue was very much a problem when I worked for ezy. It is becoming a serious problem at my current airline.

As for working on days off for nothing for the love of flying, please....

Airlines get what they deserve in terms of loyalty and crew morale. Cook up :mad: zero hour contracts and don't offer basics such as sick pay and pension to new starters and they will behave accordingly.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

MaxPower2011 - this is not a pity party and it is exactly the right place to discuss these issues. Very poor decisions were made, and in order to prevent the repeat of those it is important to highlight what actually happened. I too feel extremely sorry for the more experienced Monarch guys who are now facing a very uncertain future. Nonetheless, there will be jobs through companies like easyJet and Norwegian Air Services for many of them. In truth they will probably never have the same terms and conditions again, but that is life. I wish them well.

[kaikohe76]

I have just seen a great video clip on Facebook, (likely on you Tube as well), showing 3 Monarch 757s at Skiathos. Very impressive indeed & show just what Monarch has done in the past, is doing at present & will continue to do so in the future. If I was in the chair, I would have this video clip avertising Monarch, on every TV station possible!!!

[u0062]

Max power 2011
You seem to miss the point. Just because you have the cash to buy everything you want does not make you a competent pilot. Many of these guys who left ezy complaining about the company are the reasons why the T&C in the industry have deteriated then they have the audacity to bite the hand that feeds them.

I would suggest they find alternative lines of employment and find out what the real world is like,there characters are not conducive to flying, quite frankly during there latter stages they were another hole in the cheese.

[Journey Man]

Grass is always green
The saddest thing is in the old days many pilots came up the ladder from flying school, to night freight on a Piper 31, to turboprop, to Jets and those guys never committed the cardinal sin of slating their previous employer - they were always grateful and the airlines wished them well as they moved on. They flew on days off for nothing apart from the love of the job, never mentioned the fatigue word, you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours.
Now days that doesn't seem to be the case, its low hour Pilot one day, arguing the toss on a roster change the next day and why am i not a Captain the next.
I guess buying their rating gives them the right, but i know who i'd rather be dealing with...........


Your last sentence reveals this shift in attitude. If airlines want to keep flight crew at arms length, essentially sub contractors, then the rise of the "Me Inc." attitude is the result. I've come up via a similar route to that which you describe. It has never been valued by an airline. The airlines are reaping what they sow.

[BlackandBrown]

I've been taking quiet pride but now people are justifying their positions and still slating easy I have to say 'I told you so', 9th June 2012:

Monarch are expanding to:

1. Compete against easyjet at LGW, MAN and LTN - our 3 biggest UK bases, where they have lesser economies of scale, higher crew costs, less diversification (business/leisure route mix), older, more fuel hungry, more maintainance hungry aircraft and a lesser known brand.

2. Take up routes/ slots that previously failed for an airline that had the backing of one of the biggest most successful airlines in the world and couldn't be given away.

3. Monarch as a brand could never enter the lucrative business market so they are expanding on high risk leisure routes which have a more target rich focus.

So all the altruism, great blokes, lack of complaints, lack of tiredness and wonderful union representation in the world isn't going to prevent the inevitable. I've said it before and I'll say it again, raise your chin and look ahead.

Taken from the thread:

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/486524-monarch-anyone-4.html


Where's poster Bealzebub now? Busy working for the 'other' company with 3 letters?

Sorry for the families and people affected by this company's potential demise. It's my opinion that it'll be gone in 3 years - maximum.

[Three Lions]

The bigger problem is the change of the industry from one of numerous companies that had half an eye on looking out for its employees (including flight crew) to one where these companies are slowly but surely been devoured in the UK and Europe by the uber efficient money making loco machines.

During the expansion of the locos many companies have gone under, and many opportunities have been missed by the locos to employ those affected by the going out of business of these companies, guys with a good track record, good people skills, good life skills. Strengths, that if certain infos on this very thread are to be believed, are sadly missing in some quarters

Experienced guys either out of work on the scrapheap, and further across the food chain stuck as TP capt, as career progression to the "plumb jet jobs" hardly exists

It is incredibly ironic that those who by the very path they elected to take, and some would argue "jump the queue by chequebook" via certain ftos and loco carriers have affected the industry as a whole for everybody, now have taken the lions share of this thread due in main to the fact that they are now experienced and hence no longer of recruitment interest to the market they helped create. And also taking the thread focus from the problems of the company and the workforce as a whole and turned it into a me me me fest.

Hopefully the decent operators out there extend the olive branch to the innocents caught up in Monarchs current situation, failing that the locos can see past the usual modus operandi of majority of cadet only recruitment and give a break to innocent bystanders, and on relevant and suitable contracts.

Hopefully Monarch survive this loco led domination, Thomas Cook another decent operator had their wings checked a few years ago, but just about survived. Hopefully for the sake of the industry Monarch manage the same

[maxed-out]

Ecam, that last statement should read:

You pay 120k, play the game, meet the required standard and the job is yours.

[ZeBedie]

Have any ex easy Monarch F/O's actually applied to go back to easy?
I'm not aware of any.

[BlackandBrown]

Yes and captains from MON - I promise you. What people say and what they do are two different things.

[ZeBedie]

Are you doing the interviews B&B?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

This thread ought to refocus on the issues at Monarch and has got sidetracked into the issue of Monarch enticing dozens of easyJet cadets to leave and join them for a permanent contract and a ten k payrise.

I pleaded with some of the ezy cadets not to make the move and tirelessly presented the direst of warnings. Others I let make their own decisions... Largely because some of them were good guys and some were in need of an attitude adjustment. Son when I had five hundred hours I was still on gliders not in an A320 going into CDG for a major - quit your whining about base allocation and rosters and try learning how to damn well fly, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.

In the end they are still all young and have just a couple of years invested in Monarch. My actual sympathy extends to those who built a career and a life around it and to whom in my eyes were lied to by management and now wake up every morning under a sky of stress.

[Cancel2LateLunches]

WWW, "Son when I had five hundred hours I was still on gliders not in an A320 going into CDG for a major - quit your whining about base allocation and rosters and try learning how to damn well fly, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum" I don't think you could have been more patronising if you tried.... I hope that was a joke.

[JaxofMarlow]

Spot on Enzo999. It is the only industry I know of where experience is a positive disadvantage. BA as the flag carrier should be ashamed of themselves as they are clearly only looking to take CTC novices - otherwise they would not have reduced their hours requirement to 200. Also requiring pilots with 5000 hours to take an "aptitude test" and maths tests is bonkers - unless it is of course used as an excuse to fail experienced pilots not protected by CTC who I am sure would never have given their boys the answers to the papers in advance (sarcasm intended).

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Cancel2LateLunches WWW, "Son when I had five hundred hours I was still on gliders not in an A320 going into CDG for a major - quit your whining about base allocation and rosters and try learning how to damn well fly, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum" I don't think you could have been more patronising if you tried.... I hope that was a joke.



I was trying to be as patronising as possible. When faced with unsufferable arrogance its a rational response. You have twigged that I was expresing my internal voice... Yes?

[mesh]

As someone who has spent many years at Monarch and faces challenges that some of you have faced I have read comments on this thread that make me smile. We all make choices about which airline we work for and the reasons why. I myself have got guys on this site jobs at Monarch. Do I feel guilty? Do I hell as like....we all make our own choices and in the big scheme of things get a life. We work in a job and industry that when it's going well pays well. If its not quite working then move on and get over it. We are not gods, we do not deserve a job for life, we are pilots. We aren't the directors of airlines earning £600 k a year. We aren't bright enough, we don't have Harvard business degrees and 20 years work experience in the real world. We have been fortunate to end up in the cockpit through a bit of application and intelligence, end off. For the guys that decided to stay at Easy when the other guys went to Monarch good on you. But please don't give it the "I knew what was happening and tried to tell them"..what a load of :mad:. If Easy works for you then great but are you really telling me there isn't a better job out their for you or any of us. I have always said piots have far too much time in the flight deck to talk themselves into believing their own hype. Have a good look at yourselves and have a good life. Don't waste energy bothering about the little gits that we all work with that haven't got a clue, they will learn eventually. I turned on the tv today and watched paras dropping into Arnhem. I watched elderly guys and girls talk about when the **** really hit the fan and how they coped. Monday morning I may still have a job, I may not. But as they did, I will dig deep and carry on....

[mesh]

Ps As I'm on a roll Black and Brown I may have said it before but you are an arse my boy!

Pps as I'm typing this the white Rabbit Easy add is on the TV, genius, bloody brilliant. In fact when I go in for my next flight I will take a pocket watch, a pair of bunny ears and sing I'm late I'm late as I skip to the crew room :)

Gota keep laughing guys, it's only a job...their are far more important things in life..good luck everyone

[Globemiester]

Well said mesh. Stop bitching and let's get this thread back to the positive!

[Bealzebub]

BlackandBrown
Taken from the thread:

Monarch Anyone?

Where's poster Bealzebub now? Busy working for the 'other' company with 3 letters?

I have been on holiday for 4 weeks. I am not sure I understand what you are asking? I haven't contributed to this thread or the one you refer to (as far as I can see). Do you have a question Charley?

[gatbusdriver]

Haha,

Great post mesh, especially the first Ps!

[Narrow Runway]

Pretty unsavoury load of nonsense being spouted on here now.

This thread is about Monarch, or at least I thought it was. Am I wrong?

Whatever a few lucky "youngsters" may, or may not, have done in their respective resignations from easyJet shouldn't detract from the potential human tragedy that may be about to befall many others at Monarch, who have nothing to do with how a few people may have left a business.

Before it is pointed out; I'm a big dick ladies and gents, but I'm not waving it here.

If Monarch failed, it'd be bad news for all UK pilots in the end.

Good luck.

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

Well, this was never going to be a positive thread. It's not necessarily about just losing a job; for many the stakes are higher. In this hellish industry that we have helped create for ourselves, losing a job can mean the end of a career.

I wonder what method they are going to select for deciding who loses their job? I'm sure that pretty much everyone is trying to gain employment elsewhere and maybe that will reduce the number that are made redundant. These days you can't just fire on a LIFO basisand many of the new joiners will keep their job, at least for now.

I hope that many of the Captains who have had a lot of good years riding the Monarch gravy train, step aside if financially able. To be honest, with the inflated pay that this misfiring airline was paying them, many should still be fine, despite the awful pension situation.

[Field In Sight]

Well said Mesh. I was/am lucky (still hopefully) to be employed by Monarch via CTC a long while ago.

I could quite easily have ended up at Easy/Jet2 etc and would no doubt have been quite happy there too.

As regards to ex Easyjet pilots that have joined Monarch over the last couple of years. I've personally found all of them very well trained/capable and nice. The only thing they really ever moaned about was the flexicrew situation. They have generally said that Easy was a better organised company, but monarch was a much better company to work for (in their experience).

I have friends who work at Easy and the only thing they really moaned about was the flexicrew situation.

The easyjet pilots for easyjet planes obviously backs up these frustrations.

We all want to be treated, at the very least, that we belong to the organisation that we are working hard for.

[LNIDA]

Vulture fund in talks to bail out Monarch airline

Greybull bid for ailing charter carrier could save 3,000 jobs — and thousands of holidays
Dominic O’Connell Published: 21 September 2014
Comment (1) Print
Monarch: thousands of jobs at riskMonarch: thousands of jobs at risk
A SECRETIVE investment fund has emerged as the surprise likely saviour of Monarch, the holiday airline that faces a cash crisis. A deal would save thousands of jobs at Monarch — and the vacation plans of thousands of holidaymakers.

Greybull, best known in Britain for its role in the controversial takeover and restructuring of the electricals retailer Comet two years ago, is in talks with Monarch’s owner, Switzerland’s Mantegazza family.

The Mantegazzas, who have already pumped about £115m into the airline in recent years, are understood to be offering a £70m dowry to help clinch the deal.

Other bidders are still circling, including Elliott, the aggressive American hedge fund that recently helped force Argentina into a partial default on its sovereign debt.

Sources close to the talks said Greybull was favourite, but cautioned that it was still possible no agreement would be reached. The airline has a big pension deficit - at least £150m — and talks with pilots on new terms and conditions are at a sensitive stage. Without a deal Monarch would face an uncertain future, with accountants at PwC on standby should it be forced into administration.

The 47-year-old airline is a stalwart of the British holiday scene, carrying 6m passengers a year to destinations in the Mediterranean and beyond. It is based at Luton airport, and with its aircraft maintenance division and Cosmos tour operator arm, has 3,300 employees.

Andrew Swaffield, the chief executive recruited in April from British Airways’ parent company IAG to run the airline, has drawn up a drastic restructuring plan to shed 1,000 jobs, stop charter flights and cut the fleet from 42 to 30 aircraft.

The Civil Aviation Authority, which licenses airlines and tour operators, has kept in close contact with the airline in recent months as it has struggled to find a buyer. The regulator is understood to have compiled a watchlist of holiday operators that would be affected if Monarch ceased flights.

Greybull, one of a clutch of “vulture funds” that have prospered since the financial crisis, has emerged as a powerful force in corporate Britain in recent years. It stayed out of the spotlight, however, until two years ago when it was unmasked as one of the backers of the controversial buyout of Comet. Months later the electricals retailer went bust with the loss of 6,500 jobs.

Recently Greybull made an abortive attempt to buy the Murco oil refinery at Milford Haven.

The firm is run by brothers Marc and Nathaniel Meyohas and longstanding family friend Richard Perlhagen. “We are a family-owned, family-run business with interests everywhere,” Marc Meyohas told The Sunday Times in a rare interview in March.

Greybull, which operates from an office in the West End of London, was set up to invest the wealth of the two families, whose ties go back 40 years. The brothers’ father was a corporate lawyer in France while Perlhagen’s father built up and sold his pharmaceuticals empire in Sweden for tens of millions.

Greybull has put money into several British companies. Those that those that are known about include Metalrax, a Birmingham engineer, Plessey Semiconductors and Arc Specialist Engineering.

Nathaniel Meyohas said in March: “We are looking for unsteady companies. Our investments require either refinancing, growth capital, or are unloved parts of bigger corporates.”

Monarch declined to comment. Greybull could not be reached for comment.

[BlackandBrown]

No, it's terrible news for Monarch. Investment firms looking to buy Monarch are doing so to offset losses against tax, strip it down and dissolve it - like they did with Comet. I'm sure it makes me an 'arse' to say so though. It's just advice and reality.

[stiglet]

Monarch has always been one of the airlines I have a high regard for. My sympathies to those involved.

I would think Monarch is top heavy with experienced pilots as most seem to have been very happy there and they have historically had a stable workforce. I assume they still have a final salary scheme (for most) so would it not be a wise move for those aged 55+ to take retirement now so cutting their losses by protecting their pension (once in payment it should be guaranteed)? Again assuming the situation has not got so far to halt this option. It would cut the number of pilots facing an uncertain future and protect those older experienced pilots who would find it more difficult to get a job and not likely to want to go to the sandpit or accept the new contracts on offer with other airlines or the reduced terms with Monarch. It would also give time for the pension scheme to be restructured. Fewer captains would face demotion in the cutbacks and some F/O would be offerred places with BA/easy helping to streamline the business further without redundancies.

I was not aware as someone has said that LIFO does not apply, I thought it did.

I do agree with others that 'shoehorning' Monarch pilots into jobs with easy above those really wanting and waiting to join is not fair or desirable. Give the job to the best person irrespective of their situation.

I really hope Monarch survives for the individuals concerned and the UK airline industry as a whole.

[mad_jock]

I was not aware as someone has said that LIFO does not apply, I thought it did.

It can be a factor in the redundancy matrix but it doesn't have to be the first one in the list.

[Rushed Approach]

Most of those over 55 are already taking their pensions and then carrying on working. Believe it or not telling those over a certain age they are redundant would be age discrimination. A matrix is being used but it's basically LIFO.

[socrates]

Greybull could not be reached for comment.

However, a statement from BlackandBrown, a Director in Projects of Super High Intensive Takeovers (DiP****), was quoted as 'looking to buy Monarch are doing so to offset losses against tax, strip it down and dissolve it.'

:ugh::ugh:

[FANS]

Do they want to save £60m? If yes, put it into admin now.

If no, the hand of the pilots is not that weak. Indeed, put in £80m and the pilots will agree to whatever and share the £20m.

Once the vulture funds arrive, all bets are off anyway.

[gatbusdriver]

This is addressed to Monarch pilots.

I don't know if the company is looking to offer career breaks but if anyone is looking to make enquiries into life in the ME, specifically Qatar, then I would be happy for anyone to get in touch via PM. I know that as far as the sandpit is concerned QR is probably most peoples last choice, but if on a career break it ain't too bad.

Good luck to all.

[BlackandBrown]

HM Revenue & Customs: Making a loss and Corporation Tax (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ct/forms-rates/claims/losses.htm)

How the wealthy avoid paying tax | Money | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/apr/24/how-avoid-paying-tax-maximise-income)

There are lots of losses that can be offset against income or capital gains to reduce your tax bill. Any good accountant will help their clients minimise their tax bill by finding legitimate losses they can use in this way, but some of the more "aggressive" tax avoidance schemes look for ways to make artificial losses.

Mergers and acquisitions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mergers_and_acquisitions)

Taxation: A profitable company can buy a loss maker to use the target's loss as their advantage by reducing their tax liability. In the United States and many other countries, rules are in place to limit the ability of profitable companies to "shop" for loss making companies, limiting the tax motive of an acquiring company.

Comet backers recoup £54m from retailer - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/10243396/Comet-backers-recoup-54m-from-retailer.html)

It's in fact been Monarch's purpose for a long time.

[Blantoon]

Greybull could not be reached for comment.

However, a statement from BlackandBrown, a Director in Projects of Super High Intensive Takeovers (DiP****), was quoted as 'looking to buy Monarch are doing so to offset losses against tax, strip it down and dissolve it.'

:ugh::ugh:

Socrates. What do you think a vulture fund is?

[FANS]

But those brought forward tax losses can generally only be used against profits in the same trade, so don't get too carried away with their value.

[BlackandBrown]

Quite, thank you Blantoon.

The term "vulture fund" is a metaphor used to compare distressed securities funds to the fund to the behavior of vulture birds “preying” on debtors in financial distress by purchasing the now-cheap credit on a secondary market to make a large monetary gain, in many cases leaving the debtor in a worse state.

[crosswind11]

Am I right in thinking that a dowry is being offered because Monarch is worthless? :uhoh:

[FANS]

The dowry goes to the heart of the negotiations as they could just walk away. The latter is what any vulture fund would do.

[LNIDA]

My best take is that Monarch probably has less than a 10% chance of lasting as an independent brand, life span 3 months to two years. More likely than not that PWC will be involved before xmas if any external factor such as high oil price spike, Iceland volcano comes into play

[Offchocks]

The guessing of the future of Monarch whether good or bad is just speculation, nothing more.
Having worked for them for just over nine years, I always thought the airline was a survivor. For those with Monarch of which a few are old friends, I hope the airline survives these troubled times.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

In my experience, pilots are the best people in the world to manage a crisis, but when it comes to relationships and choosing jobs they are pretty dire! What we can learn from this crisis is that no airline has a divine right to exist. The bottom line is that money-in must exceed money-out - if over a whole year your airline is not making a profit, however, small, you need to start worrying. If it happens a second time, you need to be very worried. There are always exceptions like Alitalia, who are perpetually baled-out by their even more skint government, but even they have tottered on the brink and kicked out numerous pilots.

PPRuNe does not enjoy a reputation for rational discussion, and many who contribute here write utter tosh. For those of you criticising the likes of Black and Brown, Wee Weasley Welshman and previously Alexander de Meerkat, take a look back at what they wrote and work out if what they were right in the light of subsequent events. I would humbly suggest that the three contributors mentioned have proven to be extremely accurate over a long period of time. You may have been offended at what they say but, love them or hate them, they have been proven right when many others were wrong. Perhaps their contributions are of significantly more value here than they are currently being given credence for.

[BlackandBrown]

Thank you Count of Monte Bisto. Without wishing to gloat, I wasn't wrong about BA either was I? Except they won't go bust - their Ts and Cs will end out the same as the rest of us, with lesser frills, more work and literally five times the wait for a command. Whatever floats your boat.

MON are done, make your plans now so you aren't killed in the rush. And the winter is to come......better hope it's not too icy or snowy.

[LNIDA]

My feelings about Monarch came very much from seeing how shocking they were with customer service and on time performance at LGW, were further reenforced by stories from pilots who work there, gloating of shortish two sector days, lots of standby and extra money for doing anything beyond what was rostered, lax control of expense claims during ground training, one quote ' we don't bother looking at anything under £1k'

I posted 6+ months ago that they were being squeezed in LGW by Norwegian and in the North by Jet2, they have over relied on a loyal but aged customer base and are moving to a model that brings them into the firing line of Easyjet/Ryanair at a time when according to Travel Mole website today the number of holiday's taken is down and package tours up!!!

They promoted the change to non reclining seats, when the real issue was lack of leg room, finally they must have endless amounts of management time on (not) deciding on a new fleet order since October last year, only to announce a move to Boeing 2 weeks before the family called time on the whole airline.

[FANS]

The change in T&Cs for new joiners, the lack of real opportunities in the UK coupled with seniority mean that for most the answer is to sit tight.

That is what is still happening now with people only too willing to accept large cuts in exchange for no guarantees.

[Rushed Approach]

LNIDA, yes OTP at LGW has been shocking because of a certain handling agent that will soon be ditched, and which is not a problem confined to Monarch. Average sector length is significantly longer than e.g. EZ or FR so two sectors are the norm for the moment but this could change.

The only extra money is for working days off and as for "lax expense claims for ground training" this is utter rubbish - pilots get nothing extra for ground duties at home base and normal day/voyage rate if at another base - they don't even claim via the expenses system for ground duties as this is done via the rostering system!

A "loyal but aged" customer base - what so older people's money is somehow worth less on the balance sheet? The older generation appreciate Monarch's customer service as they don't like being treated like cattle.

Monarch started moving to a scheduled model over 10 years ago and have been competing with easy and Ryanair all of that time, very successfully on their core routes.

Non-reclining lightweight seats have extra legroom built-in because of the thickness of the seat itself and are much preferred by passengers as the seat in front does not recline (I believe a recent survey showed that 95% of passengers don't like reclining seats). They also give a much more spacious cabin as on single aisle aircraft passengers can walk past trolleys and the iPad/tablet holders they contain are very popular with passengers accessing the in-flight Wi-Fi or just doing their own thing on their own devices - of course the seats also save considerable weight and thus fuel.

The Boeing deal, which will soon be signed, was significantly better, all things considered, than what Airbus were offering.

FANS, not sure what you mean by the "change of Ts and Cs for new joiners". Following the recently agreed changes with the union, all Monarch pilots will be on the same contract.

[Thadius]

I work for neither Monarch , easy or Ryanair but have used all in order to commute around Europe .

I find Monarch to be inferior both with regards to aircraft , OTP & customer service . Thompsons & Thomas Cook outclass them in the holiday sector; easyJet & the like are light years ahead in the low cost sector.


The employees can keep telling us what a great Airline it is but the customers have spoken & 'The Monarch' has had its day .

[pitotheat]

Rushed approach alas your argument has two fatal flaws.
1. Over the last 10 years you have not been able to compete with the low costs.
2. You do not have a loyal customer base of any generation.
That is why Monarch is in the difficult position it is in. As for new aircraft orders......
I personally would prefer to have more competitors as this will help arrest the ever decreasing T & Cs but Monarch will not be one of them. A great pity I know some pilots with them who deserve better.

[LNIDA]

Of course aged money is the same value, but they die........eventually

Yes people don't like reclining seats because it infringes their personal space, but if you cram extra seats your back to square one.

The expense money i'm talking about is ground school during training

How many Monarch aircraft have free inflight wifi installed?

There will be no deal signed with Boeing until and if funding is sorted 50/50 of that happening, if it weren't for the reported £70m dowry being offered i think i would game over.

Wish them well but head in sand helps no one

[FANS]

Monarch is still a near £1bn turnover business, so let's not write it off yet.

[kick the tires]

A Company can turn over as much as you want, but if they don't make a profit, it means nowt!

On the contrary, your point highlights how fragile the deck of cards is at monarch. A billion turn over yet they need an annual injection of over 100 million to survive! Errrrrr..........:ugh:

[FANS]

But it did make a profit.

The auditors signed it off as a going concern.

Its engineering business is interesting.

ATOL are satisfied.

New investors are looking to put funds in.

Yes - it could go bust, but there is value there especially if the pilots will accept the paycut for no upside.

[renort]

The current owners were putting in close to 750K a month to try and stand still. Will the new owners follow suit?

[RHINO]

Renort,

completely false statement, remove the 7 and the 5...

[LNIDA]

Latest report this afternoon is that the family will not pay any dowry or resolve the pension shortfall, only that they will delivery the business in an agreed state??

quote

However, Greybull Capital’s involvement in refinancing the airline is likely to prove contentious - the investment firm was involved in the collapse of Comet, the electrical chain, two years ago.
Monarch revealed this morning that it is in advanced talks towards a takeover by Greybull which will assume control of the business from Switzerland’s wealthy Mantegazza family, who are exiting. Greybull will inject funds through a convertible loan, which will turn into equity if a turnaround plan is successful.

I wish them well, but the only long term value i see is the engineering business, trying to take on Easyjet/Ryanair is a mugs game when you are a minnow and moving from your own turf into their's, yep its a well known brand but so Comet, certain irony in the Comet name......

[FANS]

If they're exiting and Greybull coming in, it's going to be a very different world.

Sounds like a £1 sale then.

[carbheatout]

I wish them well

DON'T LIE. It's not big and it's not clever.

[Aluminium shuffler]

I will be sad if they go - I had hoped to work for them at some point. But I hope the guys are all getting applications out to get in elsewhere ahead of those who want a change of employer rather than are looking at likely redundancy. As much as I would like Mon to survive, I think it's unlikely in the circumstances. I'm sure everyone has dusted off their CVs. I've been there once, and wouldn't wish it on anyone. Hope you all land on your feet.

[Rushed Approach]

LNIDA, you continue to spout BS, particularly if you think MAEL is profitable. Why do you think they might be profitable? Your naivety is breathtaking!

Monarch has been comfortable in easy's and FR's "turf" since they were born and only has 15% non-scheduled work left so it is hardly a major shift in emphasis from where we are now to move to 100% scheduled.

Mon has been taking on easy and FR for a decade or more and is no 1 or 2 on all the routes it competes with them on. And that's WITH all the cost base issues!

If those cost base issues are pretty much instantly removed by the restructure, the company (which was profitable last year let's remember) will clearly be able to compete very well.

I know you guys in easy and FR don't like it, but the fact is that you are :mad: yourselves. If you are all so good at what you do, why have you failed to eliminate Monarch over the last 15 years? Benevolent shareholder? No, ruthless shareholder who is a multi-billionaire for a reason. He may exit the airline, but that doesn't mean he's exiting the game - the airline is but a small pawn in his game.

[A4]

I know you guys in easy and FR don't like it, but the fact is that you are :mad: yourselves. If you are all so good at what you do, why have you failed to eliminate Monarch over the last 15 years?

....because the previous board of Monarch were doing it themselves? I don't wish to sound harsh, but your statement comes across as a little "delusional".

Turning it round, why have Monarch allowed EZJ and RYR to become 200+ and 300+ fleets generating profits of £500,000,000 per year in the last 15 years?

[BlackandBrown]

Rushed Approach you're in denial. Who do you back? Easyjet, Ryanair or chintzy old has been Monarch? As Cyril Conolley said :

Whom the gods wish to destroy they first call promising

[renort]

Hold tight everyone, also read up on what happened to Phones 4u over the last two years or so since it was sold to a VC.

RHINO - I read the letter. Maybe you missed that bit.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

Rushed approach - I have to say that your post has an air of fantasy and delusion about it. Monarch has not been competing with easyJet and Ryanair as number one for more than a decade. If they had done so, they would not be in the mess they are now. They have older aircraft, outdated conditions and have fiddled while Rome burnt around them. Whilst easyJet and Ryanair have built up massive fleets with corresponding massive economies of scale, Monarch have soldiered on believing they could carry on as they always have. Their financial benefactors have at last come to their senses and realised they cannot keep pouring money into a bottomless pit. Nobody wishes the situation on anyone, but these are the consequences of a terrible and unworkable business model that denied the realities of what was going on around them. Talk of the new fleet is equal fantasy, and I just do not see them converting every single Airbus pilot to fly the Boeing 737.

[FANS]

Re BALPA's press release, why should the government be propping up Greybull or does BALPA want them to nationalise Monarch?

[FANS]

Unless Monarch are a lot cheaper, why would anyone buy a flight from them given "further hurdles are still be overcome"

[Spitfire boy]

I fear another airline name will disappear at some stage with the PE selling on to easyjet if they can secure more Gatwick slots.

[FANS]

The thing you can guarantee with PE is that they will sell it!

[Three Lions]

Not wanting to state the blindingly obvious to anybody with a sane mind, but surely the better plan would be to try to raise the locos ts and cs to the ts and cs that the likes of Monarch and the operators who have tried to look out for PEOPLE better in the industry.

To the sort of levels of ts and cs the industry historically have always rightly enjoyed, and to be fair deserved, and to avoid the current situation whereby regression of the decent operators down to the "bargain basement/plastic coat/4sector day/I'm all right jack/cadet heavy recruitment/get your pound of flesh" type operation seems de rigeur and the accepted modus operandi in the UK these days

Monarch have to remain, they have to grow stronger to help regress the powerful motion and the expansion of the loco operators, not just for those involved in life changing situations at Monarch at present but for the good of all for the future.




Just a thought.

[777X]

I was told the other day what FR crew earn in Europe...

New Captain £39k basic (!!), and for FOs £0k basic, although a seemingly generous £84 an hour (all in). Presumably no pension etc, etc.

And in the recent past at EZY, the flexiscrew deal with cadets paying 10k for rating, to be paid only £1200 a month for the summer season, presumably laid off in winter.

And the airline up north with their summer only contractors, or 50% of 70% pay, all competing head on with MON.

little wonder it's been a struggle in recent years....

[brakedwell]

I'm not sure of the wisdom of BALPA issuing a press statement about Monarch's troubles. Once it becomes public knowledge bookings could drop as potential customers take up defensive positions and book seats with the opposition. I remember Laker flying across the Atlantic with crippling low load factors as rumours of their demise spread.

[Thadius]

Greybull will make a great deal from Monarch's maintenance dept which has made money for a long time now by repackaging & selling on . It's the less lucrative parts of the company that will most likely be left by the wayside .

[Flaperon75]

So what's the latest on redundancies at MON? Will there be compulsory redundancies amongst pilots or are the union trying to negotiate alternatives? How senior an FO is at risk (in terms of years served)? Hope it doesn't come to that....

[binsleepen]

I understand a handful of MON guys have been offered jobs at BA just this week with more in the pipeline.

Regards

[Buster the Bear]

Are you able to take VR if you have found another job already (but quietly)?

[LNIDA]

Once you have signed the VR and started your redundancy period you can leave at your will, you will get redundancy, but you will lose your notice pay, unless some other agreement is in place, by making you redundant the company is saying we don't need you, but must still given your notice or pay in lieu of notice, PIL & redundancy pay will normally be tax free up to a value of £30k a figure that has been the same for at least 20 years, a proper stealth tax

[brakedwell]

PIL & redundancy pay will normally be tax free up to a value of £30k a figure that has been the same for at least 20 years, a proper stealth tax

Agreed, like inheritance tax, but far better than the statuary pittance we got when AE went belly up!

[E. MORSE]

easyJet Capt Italian base : €9000,- after tax
easyJet F/O Italian base : €5500,- after tax

not too bad now is it ?

[WhyByFlier]

Easyjet Switzerland FO £5200-£5500 after tax plus a very healthy pension.
Easyjet Switzerland Capt £8500-9500 after tax plus a super pension.

Again, get your facts straight.

[macdo]

Perfectly reasonable money, but does this reflect new joiners/commanders in the UK?

[WHYEYEMAN]

For info:
10 year UK easy capt - 120k (3.3% rise next month). There are 3 fairly lucrative share schemes and a profit share scheme which paid out about 5k last year. I think it's more this year if the results are good enough. FO's are on 45-65 (correct me if this is wrong). This is after 12-18 months on pretty low pay if you join as a cadet. New commanders go onto the same contract as all the other commanders.

[WhyByFlier]

SFO in the UK around £4000 after tax, Capt around £5000. Blame the tax man for that.

easy jet needed to change - when people joined back in the day they were taking a gamble - for taking that gamble they were offered £25K golden hellos and 20000 shares - which I know some still have offering them 5 figure dividend payments each year and have a worth of £280K today. Back then they asked people to INVEST their experience and opportunism in the company.

Now the airline is extremely successful and offers a much more stable, guaranteed (as guaranteed as any flying job can be) platform - that means they don't need to give, offer and buy so much. Once a pilot has INVESTED time in the company they will be on the figures above. For sure. In return the pilot is given excellent training, a stable platform to get as worthwhile flying experience as you like (we don't just do RV'd ILSs in an easy Airbus to quell another myth - we can do raw data, man thrust, visuals, circling, foul weather (even harder in an airbus), long days, long blocks, plenty of tech issues, huge, varied workforce, multinational operation etc. etc.). Once they have some experience they get on to experienced pilot's pay. It's a more than fair substitute for flying cessnas, senecas, trilanders or TPs. It's a targeted career structure - one which I've been extremely grateful to have. It's the same MON have offered minus the job security but plus some money.

It's just my opinion.

That said, it's extremely satisfying slam dunking the ill informed's myths.

[macdo]

Thats a fair appraisal of the job. I thought this was the case as you see few moans about the pay at Easy, apart from the way they treat the cadets. The only thing a MON pilot might miss out on is the potential for LH, which I find is less knackering than constant SH. Only a personal opinion, of course. That job security is worth an awful lot these days.

[HundredPercentPlease]

macdo,

Still you are out-of-date and wrong.

The cadets do 12 months of flexicrew and then are on to a fully employed £40K pa salary. Not brilliant, but not a disaster. They do that for a year, then the next grade for 2 years, then SFO from then on.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have a complete newbie on a 12 month trial, do you? Around 1% fail to get the job at the 1 year point, and they tend to be the ones with very odd attitudes.

So much :mad: in this thread. You cannot blame Monarch's failure on poor terms at eJ. The problem at eJ is fatigue. The problem at most airlines is the managers failing in their roles (or making decisions based on short term personal greed).

[macdo]

100%
Suggest you read 100% of my post. I offered no opinion on easy T&Cs except that they seemed quite reasonable in comparison to mine with a legacy airline. The treatment of cadets by easy and other LoCo's is a statement of fact and history, but I largely agree that 40k is a reasonable start point. I also agreed with you that the LoCo SH lifestyle is not one I would find attractive, for the very reason you state.
Please don't shoot from the hip, old chap.

[Rocket Ron]

Judging from the feedback of ex EZY guys who joined BA, I don't see much difference in SH lifestyle, except the BA guys spend much more time away from home, twiddle their fingers for an hour or two between sectors and enjoy forced draft and the frustrations of LHR.

I'll stick with LoCo.

[JaxofMarlow]

I know some MON pilots who would cut a limb off for an EZY seat now - the ones who are likely not to have a job soon - and not just the ones who previously jumped ship from EZY.

[HundredPercentPlease]

macdo,

Not shooting from the hip - just responding to:

apart from the way they treat the cadets

which appears to be entirely in the present tense.

[macdo]

then I'll add the "ed" for clarity!;)

[WHYEYEMAN]

There is talk of DECs in the UK at the moment and it had been confirmed that if this is to happen then it will be onto the existing contract. I sincerely hope this is all about taking on some of the MON pilots but I have no idea if this is the intention.

[FANS]

As another big UK carrier reduces its T&Cs dramatically, it makes it all the harder to hold onto current standards across the UK industry.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

3.3% payrise coming this week courtesy of Stelios. Although its been alluded to I cannot reconcile UK DEC's when there are over 200 SFO's in the Command Pool patiently waiting. Its the Middle East carriers that suddenly find themselves short of pilots and short of experienced ones to upgrade.

[WHYEYEMAN]

Taking on a dozen or two MON CPs would delay an SFO's promotion by a matter of weeks or months. A small price to pay for offering these UK based pilots an opportunity to stay here no?
We're adding 80 airframes in the next 5 years. There is room!
Disclaimer: I have no idea whether this is the intention.

[Narrow Runway]

A fine sentiment, however, I can't see that being easyJet's intention per se.

Any DEC recruitment would, I suspect, be run on the basis of need, not altruism.

As WWW said, with 200 or so command ready FO's in the easyJet system, what is there to gain necessarily?

[WhyByFlier]

Whyeyeman, what is important is having staff who actively WANT to fly for the company not now NEED to fly for them because there bet didn't come in - like many BMI pilots took the punt and look at them now with us - those that didn't got shafted. There was plenty of opportunity for these people to apply a handful of years ago or even in the last round of OPO, NAP, and AMS recruitment. Just because one wants a certain basing doesn't mean you're owed it. Talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it. I feel for these people hugely but if they have to go abroad that's too bad - I've had to for 5 years and plenty of others have too - look at so many of the LGW commanders. Expecting us to pity people when we've had to do it within this company is nonsense - especially if they're taking my command and pay uplift ahead of me when I've invested a lot of time in the company.

[stiglet]

WhyByFlier you're right; if the company and unions agree to accept DEC's then I feel it is only fair the same criteria apply to them as to the command upgrades. If easyJet are offering commands at their new bases and they are not being filled from within then any offer to a DEC should be to fill those bases before the UK bases or others of choice.

[WHYEYEMAN]

Chaps, if you havn't made this realisation yet then let me enlighten you. Where you end up in this industry is largely a matter of luck depending on who's recruiting at the time that you are looking for a job. Let's not pretend we all had some kind of superhuman foresight now that it turns out we work for a successful airline. I appreciate that it's easy for me to say this from the LHS but one day you might have a huge mortgage, a family to support, school fees to pay etc etc and next time it might be you! Hard to imagine right now though I grant you.

[WhyByFlier]

What so 3 weeks ago they couldn't have applied for the DEC in NAP, OPO and AMS? Why should their 'bad luck' become my 'bad luck'? Sick and tired in this industry of this socialist mindset that other people's problens are everyone's problems. BMI pilots left BMI 9-6 years ago en masse to join Easyjet because they had foresight. It isn't just luck - as I said in another thread, luck is the venn diagram where opportunity and preparation coincide. Chance has a role in everything. Credit yourself with more intelligence - judgement is the tiny little decisions your brain is making without you realising it. I'm desperately sorry for people who may be out of a job and I can't help but feels genuine pangs in my heart and gut for them but there's a well paid job for them out in Qatar, Asia etc. which will even house them and pay for their kids education. Plenty of mil pilots had to do long tours, during or after their careers in Germany and the Middle East. It's the job food chain. Nothing is guaranteed - Easyjet might very well do a Tesco's in 3 years. Get rid of the lefty, over evolved mindset that there's more fat than there is (and thus giving it away) and be more risk averse - look after your FOs who've been here 5-7 years waiting for a command.

[WHYEYEMAN]

So if it was a case of you being asked whether you would be willing to delay your command course for a few months in order to allow some CPs to join the company who would otherwise have to move their entire families to some ****e-hole in the Middle East, your answer would be a firm 'No' as it was their fault for joining an airline (perhaps 10-20 years ago) that has become unsuccessful. I'm at a slightly different stage in my life to you I suspect. That's why I can't really have any respect for your position. Moving an entire family to another country is several orders of magnitude different from you waiting an extra few months for a command. And let's face it, Easy is a low experience airline. We could use these people.

[JaxofMarlow]

Bloody hell. What selfish and ignorant attitudes being displayed here. Some of the MON pilots, and the one I know well, had only just returned from years in Qatar having already worked for 3 failed airlines in the UK and Ireland. "Don't make their bad luck my bad luck". Unbelievable. It is this sort of attitude that makes me sick and I really hoped it wouldn't appear in this country. And as this is a MON thread why don't you take your ignorance and revolting thoughts elsewhere.

[JaxofMarlow]

Absolutely WHYEYEMAN. I am spitting feathers.

[WhyByFlier]

I have 4300 hours flying the A320 for Easyjet. I know a TC for MON who has been there for 18 years, been on the 320 for nearly 8 and has 4300 hours on type. MON are equally low on experience - I know a capt there with less than 4000 hours TT. I can happily verify this. So 9 months ago if easy had closed MAN and made all pilots redundant would the MON pilots have been happy and accommodating with them DECing them into MAN ahead of command ready FOs. A heavily unionised airline like MON? It's rhetorical, don't bother answering.

I don't have a problem with them getting anything but I do have a problem with me being penalised for it.

I know again, personally, MON Capts who left MON to join easy back when there were DECs. It's this lazy, lust for entitled regionality that causes this feeling - it doesn't happen anywhere else. An Ex's father was CFO for a major cargo airline - he had to spend years at a time in the Middle East, Germany, Singapore, Australia, Belgium and Ireland - as you can probably derive, he had a family too! I know lawyers, bankers, engineers, scientists and management consultants who've had to do and are doing the same. It's called life. I've had to do it with a family and family illness. Just got to get on with it and make your choice - I for example would do something else rather than go to the Middle East after considering it.

Sorry Jax, since you want to join easy so much I presume you applied for DEC many of the other times up to and including the last few weeks? Or would you rather I displaced myself again and went to NAP, OPO or AMS away from or displacing MY family, having given this company over 5 years loyalty, so you don't have to, having given them none? Please, justify it to me.

[Burpbot]

I'm not a big fan of prune but have the odd look! All I can say is this thread is about Monarch! Not EasyJet! I have heard of many people leaving easyJet for Monarch, up until now I have never heard of anyone leaving Monarch for easy! The deal easy currently offer certainly doesn't entice experienced labour!

If the people posting venomously on this thread are a reflection of crew at easy then I can't say I am that keen on joining easy! I however have friends at easy, most of whom are either keen to leave or go part time! They are however nice people and do not reflect the spite in several of the posters on this thread!

Your delusional if you think easyJet cares about you as an employee, your just a cog in a machine, they will do what suits them best.

Now can we start a new thread for all those who want to rant about easy??

[whoopie]

Bit of thread creep going on. I haven't posted or visited here for around ten years maybe. See things haven't changed - still full of small minded, self centred, my airline's better than your airline drivel.

[kick the tires]

Whyeyeman - question for you.

If your DEC's do arrive and there are vacancies at say MAN, do they go to LGW and let those on the MAN waiting list to move back to MAN?

As many have said, there is absolutely no need to rescue the unfortunate MON chaps at the expense of our own. Your assertion that it will delay our command pool by a few weeks/months is cobblers! If MON people take our command slots then they are permanently taken; when our expansion stops, it means that our people next on the list will then have to wait for their chance whilst the MON chaps are fat dumb and happy in the LHS!

[stiglet]

If easy want or need pilots then Monarch pilots would stand a better chance than most to get offerred a job; not a command ahead of qualified, experienced, existing F/O's. That's the way it always has been with the majority of airlines, isn't this what seniority is all about? They should join at the bottom like everyone else - unless DEC's are what is required, because of a lack of appropriate experience or because the upgrade F/O's decline the base move, in which case they should join below the F/O's waiting and ready for slots and command courses. I've been there; had a command with one airline then joined another at the bottom and worked my way up. I really don't see why Monarch pilots should be given priority simply because their airline is in trouble. There are many other commercial pilots out there who have been struggling for years.

[kick the tires]

JaxofMarlow wrote: Bloody hell. What selfish and ignorant attitudes being displayed here. Some of the MON pilots, and the one I know well, had only just returned from years in Qatar having already worked for 3 failed airlines in the UK and Ireland. "Don't make their bad luck my bad luck". Unbelievable. It is this sort of attitude that makes me sick and I really hoped it wouldn't appear in this country. And as this is a MON thread why don't you take your ignorance and revolting thoughts elsewhere.

JaxofMarlow, are you saying that peoples careers and advancement should be put on hold whenever another airline is in difficulty and their pilots want to jump ship?

[INeedTheFull90]

Sorry to sound unsympathetic. But if anyone does come across to the Big Easy, then I'd welcome them. However, they should NOT be given a regional base just because they will easily 'slot in'. Go where there's work and wait your turn on a transfer list, like the rest of us have to. It's bad enough seeing new hire cadets get sent to desirable regional bases when many of us with families have to commute. AMS/LIS/OPO/LGW should be a starting point just like it is for the rest of us.

[RHINO]

Could I ask the mods to rename this thread

'Easyjet First Officers in turbulence':)

[JaxofMarlow]

I was not suggesting MON pilots should get priority in location over existing EZY pilots. I was just saying that if EZY want experienced pilots then why not MON pilots. Relocation is a fact of life for many and I wasn't saying MON pilots should be excluded from positions overseas if that is what EZY have available. My point was that some have already spent considerable periods overseas in pursuit of their career. And pointing out to me that other careers have to spend time overseas on their way to the top just proves my point. No other careers are so single company orientated. Time with company is only one facet of advancement when a company is considering promotion. Of as much importance is time in profession, experience and aptitude for the role. Some seem to be saying aviation should be exempt from this and only consider time in company.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

AMS/LIS/OPO/LGW should be a starting point just like it is for the rest of us.

Nice idea.

Ask any easyJet pilot what happened when 'GO' and easyJet merged - nice payout for the GO pilots, bases of choice, part-time contracts - all to the detriment of the existing easyJet pilots, many of whom had been asking for those very contracts and were refused.

So don't expect anything other than that which best suits the airline.

[WHYEYEMAN]

Over the next 5 years, easy will need circa 600 new captains. That's assuming zero retirements, leavers, people going part time or losing their medical.
I would foresee DEC's at LGW yes. Plenty of CPs are waiting to escape LGW and this would expedite that process.
Perhaps some of our wannabe CPs should 'get a grip' and improve their analytical skills before their command course. This would not represent a threat to your career and would make a huge difference to those affected at MON.

[stiglet]

Then let those affected at Monarch go to the back of the queue and not jump the queue.

[JaxofMarlow]

For a pilot with a command at MON a command at EZY is not jumping the queue. Subject to checks, it is maintenance of professional position. Yes, bottom of the command list but not as some are suggesting back to FO/Cadet.

[go around flaps15]

If there is 200 First Officers that have been deemed suitable for command at EZY then they are first in line for any command positions that become available. If there are no First Officers deemed suitable for a command position or perhaps not enough then the company would look at DECs?

Or have I missed something?

[JaxofMarlow]

What other professions operate within the confines of a single company to the exclusion of talent and skills outside. Pilots are professionals and ply their skills for a numerous companies across the world. If movement between companies always required you go to the bottom of the pack there would be no movement. When a consultant leaves a health authority he does not become a registrar at the next one. There is always a corporate hierarchy but this cannot and never will be to the exclusion of talent outside. If it did, then the only way to the top would be through length of service.

[Artie Fufkin]

Now I wonder, if it were the other way round. Let's say this time last year some Easy captains wanted DEC at Monarch. I wonder what the response might have been from your average Monarch pilot. I suspect the two word answer may have ended in "off".

[JaxofMarlow]

You might be right, but MON pilots don't run MON. If MON needed DEC then they would have done it. If they didn't, then they wouldn't. The pilots may have said something rude but it would have been irrelevant. There may well be a system in place in airlines that allows for identification of talent worthy of higher office, but as in all other businesses, this is not to the exclusion of rest of the world. Such waiting pools increase and decrease in size. It is the way of the business world.

[WhyByFlier]

600 captains is 70 aircraft worth! I'm not gambling on that - certainly not being in a country I want to be in.

Jax, for such an experienced pilot you've missed or not grasped one point - a captaincy or command isn't a qualification. Too many people, particularly university entering/leaving people confuse education, experience and QUALIFICATION. A consultant in a hospital is a qualified position. You do an LPC, an OPC and presumably have an ATPL. Not a command ATPL just as I don't have an FO ATPL.

It's ultimately so far outside my pay grade, no where near my decision and I need to jump through the hoops when my chance comes. No doubt being a captain is not a right to anyone and not every FO can or will have the capacity, ability or the personality to meet the standard. But that standard is subjective to each company too - in Easyjet the bar is very high - it needs to be.

Time will tell all, let's hope we're all happy. Why you didn't apply for the DEC NAP, OPO and AMS I don't know though given how much you want to fly for Easyjet. It's a great company, I can recommend it. If I have the chance to fly with you I'm sure we will have a great day out. I hope you and your family aren't displaced and I very much hope MON turn it around. I don't think they will. I hope they do though.

I'm done on this.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Artie is right. I am no fan of seniority lists - they trap pilots in their airlines and prevent others joining, so work in favour of the managers and against pilots, but BALPA seem to generally support the system. So, why should pilots who chose to exclude others and favoured seniority bypass others at a non-seniority airline? They should be treated as any other applicant to the airlines to which they apply, and I suspect they will be. They should receive no more and no less favour than anyone else. I wish them luch, but not at the expense of others.

[Burpbot]

Two major differences! Monarch is seniority based where as easy is not. Hence if bean counters want to take DEC they will.

You arrogantly assume that monarch guys are falling over themselves for a shot at easy! If you bemoan the issues of cadets getting regional bases over you commuting far afield then join forces and force your hand, rather than bitching on a forum, on a thread that's not even about easy!!!!:ugh:

[Binder]

Go Around Flaps,

You've only missed one thing.

That is that there are many Command ready F/O's on Euro contracts that don't wish to leave their Families for a LGW Command. Their choice I know.

After UK tax and living/commuting expenses they will earn not much more money for a lot more responsibility c/w euro F/O conditions.

So easy will address the Command shortfall by small number of DEC's.

It's not helped by the appalling contracts on offer in AMS. This base might have created movement from some French/Italian bases but very few takers.

As the CEO recently said when questioned about the AMS contract "You don't have to take it ....somebody else will"

Wishing a happy outcome for Monarch crews.

[WhyByFlier]

Jaxofmarlow, it's your lucky day. I'm sure you'll be applying given how much you wish to fly with us at easyJet:

Good Day,



CAE Parc are accepting applications on behalf of easyJet Airlines, for the recruitment of A320 Captains / Naples, Italy Direct easyJet Permanent Contract.



Terms On Offer:



· Start Date: January 2015

· Salary: EUR117,159 + Sector Pay + Bonus Opportunity

· Loyalty Pay Scheme

· Standby + Night Stop Allowance

· Flexible Roster with 25 Days Annual Leave Entitlement

· Pension & Insurance Included



Please find full terms on offer attached, please note, the contract will be a direct Permanent Contract with easyJet.



Candidates that have already applied to easyJet over the last 12 months, will be required to await for a full 1 year period, before reapplying for an alternative or same contract within easyJet Airlines.



Minimum Requirements:


· Currently operating the A320 family aircraft
· Minimum of 1,000 total flying hours (of which 500 flying PIC hours must be on the A320)
· UK EASA Licence(or converted by start date)
· Class 1 unrestricted medical
· Low visibility Cat IIIB qualified
· EEC Passport Holder
· Min. ICAO Level 4 English with requirement to achieve Level 6 within 6 months of employment



Interested candidates, that meet ALL of the above minimum requirements, please complete, ATTACHED Application Form (in typed format only) and return as soon as possible, along with the following documents:

· Copy of your Passport (s)
· Clear copy of all Pages of your Licence , ratings and radio licence
· Copy of Class 1 Medical
· Copy of your current LPC/OPC, full report including Instructor evaluation

At a later stage we will need the following documents however they are not required for your initial application:

· Licence Verification Letter from your Civil Aviation Authority
· Recent Employer Reference with Contact Details for Referee
· No Criminal Record and no accident incident report

Kind Regards,

Jacinta








Jacinta Dooley
Operations Support, Flight Crew



CAE Parc Aviation
St John’s Court
Santry
Dublin 9
Ireland

t. +353 1 816 1725
f. +353 1 816 1711
s. parcavfc
e. [email protected]
w. CAE Parc Aviation - Aircraft Jobs & Aviation Support


Genuinely the best of luck with your application.

[Burpbot]

Ah well 200 command ready SFO! I rest my case!!!

Now can we now stop this been the easy thread???

[mesh]

Guys, let's not make this about us at Monarch. We are doing exactly what you would in our situation, trying to get the best possible job. If Easy have suitably qualified FO's waiting for lhs then absolutely stick them in before Monarch. If Easy don't do this then is it the right place for you? We have guys that are still going on about how unfairly they have been treated but are they looking elsewhere, nope. If you don't like the decisions your Managment make then go somewhere else. I think I'm a bit grumpy at the moment but I do wish some of my colleages would grow a set and stop moaning. Life is a :mad: sometimes but get over it and move on.

[RHINO]

Mesh you plonker......(said in the nicest possible way:ok:)

this thread is not about Monarch pilots but about Easyjet First Officers in the UK! Do you not get the feeling that there are a few Easy peeps who are a tad nervous about what their management might do.....

[Thadius]

I think the thing the easy guys are nervous about is a workforce like that at Monarch , willing to take a 30% pay cut , running into inferior contracts at easyjet making the slippery slope far more acute !

[JosuaNkomo]

1. If that workforce is willing to locate to Porto, Amsterdam or Napoli then it will happen. DEC and SFO.


2. UK pretty saturated at the moment with regard to Captain positions. Indeed pass rates on command courses have been less than anticipated. Regardless of peoples perception of easyjet the training is extremely thorough and in the most part fair. If some of our SFO,s are struggling ( with their knowledge of manuals and procedures) then external DEC candidates need to be :mad: hot. Much better than me.

[mesh]

Ah I get it now :)

[ZeBedie]

I heard a rumour that the CAA are concerned about experience levels in LHS at easy and that the company are being pressured to recruit some more experienced captains. I wouldn't go there:yuk: just saying what I've heard.

[pabloc]

And back to Monarch???????

[speedrestriction]

A lot of nonsense speculation going on in this thread; people are taking snippets of facts and arranging an elaborate story which just doesn't reflect the reality of the situation.

[speed13ird]

I clicked on this thread to offer my support to the guys and girls at Monarch, but found a thread full of Orange tosh. I'm sure the Monarchists don't give a toss about "Command ready F/O's on Euro contracts" or bases in AMS/LIS/OPO or even the rumoured new base at Moonbase Alpha.

The Monarch crews have invested their professional lives tirelessly in Monarch which is where a secure future should be their well earned reward.

The spivs in the city have presented a challenge to the team at Monarch that no inflight emergency could replicate, no training has been given for the avoidance of a financial emergency!

Having been there myself, following a failed MBO at a UK regional, I could not have a lower opinion of the "suits", who can move from deal to deal with a fat bonus, leaving hard working, highly skilled and dedicated individuals high and dry like flotsam on the ocean of financial incompetence.

Good luck to you all and ignore the pillocks at the cheaper end of the market who seem to think that this is an appropriate time to wade in with the smart comments.

[LTNman]

Let us all remember how it all started. It is rare these days for a UK airline to have a bit of history that is still around.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c275/ksmithltn/1969postcard4_zps0351b288.jpg (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/ksmithltn/media/1969postcard4_zps0351b288.jpg.html)

[Superpilot]

That photo is amazing. I can almost smell the air!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I have heard a whisper that the rumoured orange DEC holding pool desired is ten guys tops.

This being to cover the possible command course failurers from next years 160-odd command courses. Mostly because fleet expansion is going to be quite a bit more than planned.

There is only the possibility of a tiny orange lifeboat it seems.

[JEM60]

Flew down to the Monaco Grand Prix on that aircraft, many years ago. Ah nostalgia.........

[Offchocks]

I could not have a lower opinion of the "suits", who can move from deal to deal with a fat bonus, leaving hard working, highly skilled and dedicated individuals high and dry like flotsam on the ocean of financial incompetence.

Well said, I'm afraid the "suits" are a disease affecting other airlines as well.

I am ex Monarch and have been reading this thread to see if there is any worthwhile information, lately it mostly seems to be about Easyjet recruitment and how Monarch's problems will affect them.

May I suggest another thread be started by Easyjet pilots with regards to their future employment conditions etc.?

[McNugget]

Well this has gone off on a bit of a one-track diversion.

All this Orange rubbish would suggest that Easy is somehow the only option.

Anyhow, best of luck to those under the hammer, particularly those with most of their careers invested in Monarch. Hopefully you can find positions which at least take care of your families needs.

Not ideal, but Airbus captains are sorely needed in China. An unappealing option for most, and a non-starter for some, but they pay very well, and will at least keep you fed and dry for a few years, and provide a good savings buffer to complement your retirement/kids university/alimony. Don't be too proud to rule it out, if you have family depending on you.

Cheers.

[RHINO]

WWW mentions the possibility of a requirement for a small number of DEC's due Command course failures.

This does not surprise me. Easyjets command course standard is very high.
A couple of ex Easy FO's have told me that some of their new colleagues in BA would not pass it!
Whilst HR might get duped from time to time the Easy Training Dept will not let any DEC's through who are not up to 'Easy speed'.

Anyway back to Monarch...

[Wirbelsturm]

A couple of ex Easy FO's have told me that some of their new colleagues in BA would not pass it!

Wow, are they on the training standards comittee already these FO's or is it merely unsubstantiated opinion?

:ugh:

(sorry, thread creep)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

It is perhaps regrettable that there is so much talk on this thread relating to EZY rather than MON although it is quite understandable.

Both are Luton based airlines with overlapping bases and fleet types. EZY are hiring and MON are shedding in possibly both seats. In recent years MON poached dozens of EZY pilots with the enticement of a permanent contract, a ten thousand pound pay rise and much better terms. The opinion being of many that this was not worth the risk of joining a small company with a big new plan means that there is plenty of interest in recent developments as they settle many a long debate with an answer.

It is of course highly regrettable when an airline enters difficulty and it helps no pilot if as a result pilot pay is reduced. That's a another benchmark lowered for us all.

As I mentioned previously there may be some DEC at EZY because there is little spare training capacity to manufacture command ready SFO's into Captains despite their being no shortage of command ready SFO's *so the RUMOURS go*. The fleet growth plans for the next five years will not all be absorbed by the EU bases so a left seat on British soil in the near future might well be possible and that might be of interest to somebody in MON at the moment.

I imagine such discussion is of more interest and more practical value than merely offering sympathy and encouragement.

The good thing is that there is movement this winter at lots of airlines in lots of places in the world. I was even looking at a contract in China yesterday that was offering £14,000 net a month in China on a narrow body Airbus...

[PAPI-74]

I would rather goto China and eat a juicy Pug, than join the orange or Nigel mob!

[JB007]

Not been to China then?!?

[Wirbelsturm]

than join the orange or Nigel mob!

I had noticed the press gangs roaming the streets looking for ATPL qualified pilots to coerce into service those errant pilots by forcing them into taking the queens shilling!

Dangerous times. :E

I know quite a few of the Monarch flight crew have applied to BA (voluntarily I might add!!! :eek: ) and I wish them the very best. I, along with many of my co-workers, would have liked to see a fast track procedure in place but unfortunately the bean counters are not to be swayed.

Good luck to all and I hope Monarch survives!

(P.S. Got a mate in China, he's desperately looking at getting back to the west, the working environment is... interesting, to say the least.)

[SOPS]

Papi is either joking..or seriously deluded.

[RHINO]

Feathers are about to fly....:E

[FANS]

Buy the Captains and the airline (and competitor) can keep shrinking.

A nice strategy for EZY.

[Burpbot]

Hahaha! Rhino, I'm guessing you just read the same email I just read!

Mwahahahaha!! But still can't say I'm keen!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

I would rather go to China and eat a juicy Pug, than join the orange or Nigel mob!

PAPI - behind the times mate, Nigel no more its now Ruppert

[JW411]

Four out of ten; it's Rupert.

[PAPI-74]

....number of P's depends on your level of grandeur.

Either way, if the application is anything to go by, I can't be arsed with the pomposity.

[Wirbelsturm]

I can't be arsed with the pomposity.

If that's what you honestly believe it to be like on the line then the application process has already been successful. ;)

Gotta love those hoops. :}

[ratpackgreenslug]

RHINO

A couple of ex Easy FO's have told me that some of their new colleagues in BA would not pass it!

Wirbelsturm

Wow, are they on the training standards comittee already these FO's or is it merely unsubstantiated opinion?:ugh:



Hook, line and sinker. Yet possibly true.

[Artie Fufkin]

I can't be arsed with the pomposity.
If that's what you honestly believe it to be like on the line then the application process has already been successful.

Gotta love those hoops.

Ignoring your own delicious slice of self-parody / irony, we only have to look to one of your esteemed colleague's earlier thoughts;

and ignore the pillocks at the cheaper end of the market

pompous |ˈpɒmpəs|
adjective; affectedly grand, solemn, or self-important: a pompous ass who pretends he knows everything.

[mesh]

Just got internal mail asking for applications for dec easy, LGW base so that answers that one......

[Chidken Sangwich]

Friend of mine has just asked for an update on his pension status. If he were to 'cash out' he'll lose £95k of his £180k pot. He's really worried that there won't be anything left in 20 years time when it's his turn at the altar.

[Wirbelsturm]

and ignore the pillocks at the cheaper end of the market

Perhaps ....

Hook, line and sinker

from ratpackgreenslug (bag rats and a sleeping bag I seem to remember!)

Or, to be honest, with 4000+ pilots now there will always be the oddball.
Simple fact is if you don't want to join then don't apply. I haven't worked for this company for my entire life, to be honest I wouldn't have ever wanted to fly airliners for my entire life, for me it's a retirement job! Just too damn dull flying these things.

However, no need to broad brush paint because you don't like the interview process. A process which is designed, run and maintained by the HR department and overseen by a few pilots who only monitor the process anyway until the simulator stage.

The good news for the thread upkeep is that there have been successful applicants from Monarch AFAIK and I wish them every success on the 'Pompous' line. :}

Hopefully there will be more to come. :ok:

[LNIDA]

The CAA have just granted Monarch an extension to its licence until the 24th of October 2014 by which time it 'hopes' to complete its sale, if not ?????:sad:

[FANS]

Does the CAA seriously think Monarch backed by Greybull is a secure and stable operator?!

I can feel the political weight falling on the CAA to approve to protect 3,000 jobs etc...

[RHINO]

Well obviously they do......do you seriously have a problem with that???:ugh:

Or is it you just like to be proved right and to hell with the thousands of jobs. It seems as long as your ego has been fettered, that is all right then...:=

[FANS]

I m just intrigued by a business that has a £billion turnover, which will go bust if its staff don't accept a paycut on the one hand.

Then on the other hand, it's fine to keep trading for atol purposes and everything's rosey.

I don't really appreciate implicit state support to greybull either.

[Chidken Sangwich]

Well the CAA certainly didn't give a toss about saving 2700 jobs when XL had the possibility of being saved.

There's no way they'd back anything that's going to hammer their ATOL repatriation fund if there's a chance of it going to the wall.

[FANS]

That's fair enough, in which case balpa have been led up the garden path

[Thadius]

You're naive if you think that Balpa will do anything in the interests of anyone but Balpa.

They make the right noises & the crew councils , generally populated by people not good enough to make it into management , stamp their fists but nothing ever gets done for the individual's affected .


Everybody has their fingers crossed for the crew at Monarch but please do not look solely to Balpa for backup ! I'm sure there are many ex Dan Air , BMI , Air Europe crews & many more who would tell you Balpa are not in your corner !

[tocamak]

& the crew councils , generally populated by people not good enough to make it into management

Presumably based on knowledge of the majority of crew councils or just a cheap shot?

[Thadius]

Knowledge & dealing with Balpa over a very long period of time .

[111KAB]

The Monarch Group. Part 1: No divine right to rule the air, but a new reign has started purposefully | CAPA - Centre for Aviation (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/the-monarch-group-part-1-no-divine-right-to-rule-the-air-but-a-new-reign-has-started-purposefully-189891)

[Aluminium shuffler]

My experience backs up Thadius' view completely.

[Say Mach Number]

Turnover means jack.

An old saying go's "Turnover is vanity profit is sanity"

[Count of Monte Bisto]

so, why are Monarch making so many people redundant and why are BALPA so useless in stopping it? Monarch are a company that have been bankrolled by one family for a generation, and their generosity has led unwise individuals within Monarch to have a higher view of the company's finances than reality has warranted. Monarch have sat with clapped-out old aircraft and a fleet that hardly grows while the T Rex opposition in the form of easyJet and Ryanair have built fleets of more than 200 aircraft each. While this went on, Monarch did.....absolutely nothing. Even little scabby airlines like Jet2 have shown more foresight and have built up a market share in the LCC market. What did Monarch do while this went on? Let me think.....absolutely nothing. In more recent times, the new boys on the block (Vueling and Norwegian) have also appeared and they too have hacked into Monarch's market share. So what did Monarch management do? Let me think....absolutely nothing. Then suddenly, and what a terrible surprise it is to everyone, Monarch have lost market share, are bleeding money and are too small to compete in their own back yard. Not to worry, they have a great plan in place to get rid of what is essentially an all-Airbus fleet and replace it with 737 Max aircraft at vast expense and with no one actually in the company qualified to fly them. They are also now planning to compete with hard-nosed and frighteningly efficient companies like easyJet and Ryanair in their own backyard. Both of these companies have huge fleets with corresponding economies of scale, years of experience, great aggression towards the competition and a demonstrated prowess in their chosen area. Does this have common sense and success written all over it? Answers on a postcard please.

So, given this tale of business buffoonery, who do the pilots blame? Why of course - it is all BALPA's fault. They are to blame for the redundancies that no one saw coming. They are clearly responsible for being left to sort out the heartbreaks of countless pilots and others who are being cast aside because their company is in dire straights. And when the next inevitable consequences of Monarch becoming a low cost company materialises and there are no jobs for anyone, probably BALPA will be to blame again. If BALPA are presented with a scenario that means the loss of 200+ UK pilot jobs, they cannot be blamed when those jobs go. The sooner the pilot world wakes up to the commercial realities of life the better. If your company does not make money, you will very soon not have a job - that is the rule by which nearly every person on the capitalist planet is forced to live by. If you are looking for someone to blame for this, might I suggest that BALPA are not really where the problem lies.

[shaun ryder]

Who are you?^^^

Put a bloody sock in it and get a life.

[mudcity]

Count, firstly may I start by saying that I agree with one of your points, that is, to blame BALPA for Monarch's woes is patently wrong. Indeed the current CC have done a great job trying to preserve as many jobs and some of the T&C whilst ensuring, hopefully, Monarch continues to trade.
Where you are way off the mark is your assessment of the business model Monarch operated under. This was never a conventional listed company, it was a private company whose only purpose was to ensure that the group benefited from its activities. For example, operate airplanes for years beyond the 'normal' LCC model, such as the A300 which underwent 20 year checks providing millions for the group , then within a couple of years they are scrapped ! The complicated ownership of the airplanes, which meant that the assets never belonged to the airline and even though the airplanes were very old, high lease rates were still being paid and the maintenance costs were high...but who benefited from the extra engineering required ......
There has been a huge turnover of MD's in the last few years, ask yourself why they left ??
Hopefully for all the great people left at Monarch, I hope the new ownership will result in a more conventional company which can make some money for the new owners and keep lots of people in jobs......but it won't be without its challenges !

[111KAB]

Monarch Airlines. Part 2: Why one of Europe's lowest cost airlines is right to seek cost reductions | CAPA - Centre for Aviation (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/monarch-airlines-part-2-why-one-of-europes-lowest-cost-airlines-is-right-to-seek-cost-reductions-189893)

[Thadius]

Count , as far as I can see , nobody has blamed Balpa for the demise of Monarch , it has just been highlighted that Balpa historically have done exactly what you're saying to many other Airlines in the past !

Well if you didn't see this coming , it's your own fault , however , you have a look at the demands of the Monarch Balpa CC over the past years looking for large increases in pay & conditions with no mention of steps to protect jobs in the event things should take a downturn .


If you are , as it would appear a representative of Balpa , to say 'the sooner the Pilot World wakes up to the commercial realities of life the better' &' if your company does not make money , you will very soon not have a job' , does that not apply to the likes of BA/IAG , Air France & many more .


Maybe instead of taking 1% of the general pilots workforce across the Uk & walking away , Bala could start looking after its members long term , if they had the foresight you request from the Monarch employees , they'd have been negotiating with the Management for a number of years & protecting the livelihoods of these people we all now feel for at Monarch & not just telling them they should have seen it coming.


I now work overseas but was let down by Balpa on two seperates occasions in this very way . Once again , good luck to all but please , all demand more help , protection & guidance for your 1% long term , don't be told you should have seen this coming .


Get the Balpa CC's at all your airlines to do more on those expense paid , trouser bursting lunch dates . Their gluttonous eyes wide at the half promise of a possible Management position in the future , you have all seen them .........

[tubby linton]

An interesting article 111kab but what it fails to acknowledge is that the airline has been a part of the Mantegazza cash machine and not its own profit centre.
It was never designed to make a proper profit but merely to pay inflated prices for leasing, engineering, insurance and whatever else they could find to launder money back to Lugano.
Throughout my time with the company it has always made the same amount of profit ,a modest sum that kept the Inland Revenue happy and the company below the radar, so that the real money could disappear elsewhere.
In the late 1990s there was a profit share scheme for employees with the possibility of bonuses if profit triggers were reached. It was a scam for the company to pay less tax and of course those targets were never reached.
it will be interesting to see how the company performs when we no longer have any link to the Mantegazzas but my colleagues and I feel sure that there will always be some link to them. I expect the B737s to be delivered to a Mantegazza leasing company in 2018 with profits from the leases paid to them and Greybull.
The article makes some positive statements about costs and revenue growth and this is very encouraging considering that the company is still using 1970s business practices and technologies in its operations.
The family's latest cash vehicle is Avalon Cruises:http://www.avalonwaterways.com/River-Cruise-Ships/

[Three Lions]

Count, I also concur the fault lies not with BALPA.

However it could also be suggested that the demise of Monarch, is directly linked to their own reduced pace in the "race to the bottom" in which it would appear the two aggressive locos, are yellow jumper wearers.

Aggressive capitalism, and the companies aggressively jostling for position at the front of the pack are ruining the race for all but a few at the very top of the respective trees.

just a guess some can't quite see this as clearly as others. Perhaps due in part, to being too busy due to slavery directed work patterns or belief in company propaganda or the controlled UK brainwashing media.

Hardly BALPAS fault. And, for the record I'm not their biggest fan. It's hardly specific to the airlines either look around smell the coffee.

[macdo]

Its sad to say, but the aviation industry as we knew it in the the years before the mid nineties is has been pretty much destroyed. Glory years for those that remember it, especially the lifestyle and t&c's. Airlines always led precarious lives and often went to the wall, but at least you were well looked after, with some notable exceptions. MON is the one of the last legacies to face up to the realpolitik of aviation in the 21st century, where, air transport has no more cachet than any other means of pushing people or cans of beans from one place to another. The rewards are still there for the pilots in this brave new world, but they will have to work longer and harder to achieve them. If, by the time you are 35, you can achieve 100k a year in a quality loco, that's still around 4 times average wage. It will buy you a decent lifestyle, not as luxurious as the old school BA contract, but good enough. And if you come to this (and many other) industry expecting to be treated as anything other than a number on an accountants spreadsheet, prepare for disappointment. Although I have a lot of time for BALPA, particularly those folk that sacrifice their time to do the CC work, it is becoming clearer by the year that Big Balpa are not giving the support and leadership that we (and our 1%) deserve. Unfortunately, until a viable alternative appears, they are the only game in town. The more of us that pay the 1% and support the union, the more we will benefit from the solidarity that affords.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

macdo, Three Lions, mudcity - we are probably all still barking up the same tree. I think we all know that the 'glory days' are gone. However, my best guess is that there are way more airline jobs available now than were the case in the past in the UK. Also, many of those are jet jobs and not turboprops. I am not sure I agree with the oft-stated view that this is a 'race to the bottom', but I loved the bit about the 'yellow jersey wearers'! There are certainly pressures on terms and conditions that did not exist in the past, but offsetting that the airline industry is open to many more people now than it has been in the past. No one wants casualties like this, but my best guess is that the overwhelming majority of Monarch outcasts will have jobs somewhere very quickly - many of them being good ones too. The Monarch guys enjoy a reputation for professionalism and that will do them no harm as the vultures circle to pick up pilots. A lot of companies are attracted by the idea of ready-made Airbus pilots just dropping from heaven - I am not sure, however, that the job offers will all be in places that people want to be.

[macdo]

Yeah, you are right, there are now a lot more jet jobs for pilots to have in the UK and globally. The big difference is, when we did TP's as the entry point, generally you got a free type rating and a 3 year bond, which was fair enough, after which a jet job came along and another free rating with a 3 year bond. I'm absolutely sure that the 120k you have to pay upfront to get into the first job isn't a fair swop. I make this observation in the light of the number of FO's you meet who really struggle to make ends meet.

WRT the airlines waiting in the wings to snap up the unfortunates at MON, the deal offered to those FO's that have contacted my outfit has been less than generous. Whilst I'm sure there are jobs for all, most airlines find experienced FO's a touch indigestible when it comes to paying them properly, especially compared to a considerably cheaper cadet.

[Jonty]

To be honest, he was harsh, but fair.

[Buster the Bear]

Very interesting comments tubby and the highlight from the last few pages. I was involved albeit not with Monarch for 20 odd years at Luton and Monarch was the steady and reliable airline. Always safe and very welcoming.

Britannia moved on, hopefully Monarch can as well?

[111KAB]

Just in case you missed when I posted some time ago >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dItfi9ZFQlc

[INeedTheFull90]

Yeah because Monarchs fleet still have that new plane smell. Aren't their757s 27 years old? Pot, kettle, black. And hasn't Jet2 grown and also made a profit? A proven and sustainable business model and in just over a decade have achieved ore than monarch has in half a century. Now they can't be all that bad. You're a funny bunch you lot. An evangelical lot when it comes to MON!

[kaikohe76]

Monarch for very many years indeed, had & I would rather think, still has, to a very considerable extent, an exceptionally loyal & highly professional workforce in all departments. In the ideal world, you would like to think this would count for a great deal, unfortunately hard commercial pressures etc these days can so easily dictate otherwise. Those who work for & previously worked for Monarch, can justifiably feel very proud indeed of what they have done over the years. Whether this will count for a great deal with the current difficulties, remains to be seen.

[CargoOne]

Out of MON fleet the only aircraft currently owned by affiliated structures are A300s. The rest is leased from typical lessors like CIT, GECAS, AerCap, Aircastle etc

[macdo]

WRT Jet2 - perhaps it is not all that rosy there either.

Jet2.com. Good & bad news. Parent Dart Group announces FY2014 profit growth & FY2015 profit warning | CAPA - Centre for Aviation (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/jet2com-good--bad-news-parent-dart-group-announces-fy2014-profit-growth--fy2015-profit-warning-174726)

[INeedTheFull90]

Sho me an airline where everything is continually great. Things may not be rosy but nobody will be ordering a memorial wreath for Jet2 any time soon, which is more than can be said for Monarch.

Monarch may have a loyal employee base. I'm sure id be loyal too if I was paid above market rates and had a job for life because The Family would always bail MON if the going got tough. Now the going is tough I wonder how loyal the workforce will be? Particularly those who see colleagues on the dole whilst new FO cadets are hired on cheap contracts a la flyBE.

[111KAB]

Given this thread is with regard to Monarch and CargoOne's post re the plane ownership (rather than leasing) situation at Monarch I enquire as to the general thought regarding the Greybull potential injection of funds. Given that Greybull were involved in the Comet Electrical and Riley Snooker Halls financial woes I wonder why it would appear they are the only (vulture) fund who have seen a potential in an investment in the Monarch Group?


Is this a long term investment or for short term gain? In the short term the liquidation of MAEL, Cosmos, A300's, prime slots etc would surely realise a significant sum .... more than enough to equate to a reported £75 mil injection??


One hopes they are not in it for asset stripping however given their (Greybull) past record and the general feeling regarding prospects for future growth (admitted by Monarch themselves with regard to current downsizing) the interest of a little known fund should surely be looked at with a degree of trepidation.

[INeedTheFull90]

They'll split off and wind down the airline so no pension deficit. Sell the prime slots then sell MAEL and the holiday side, then walk away with a tidy profit with ruined lives strewn throughout England. A sad state of affairs.

[Facelookbovvered]

I think the negative forward guidance for FY15 is probably less negative now than at the time they (Dart Group) provided it. The economy is recovering at a faster rate than first thought, that will eventually filter north, fuel price futures for 2015 are way down and for a fuel hungry ageing fleet that is helpful. They have invested heavily in a new sim centre near Bradford which will cut their travel, hotel and duty time costs considerably v doing the same stuff in LGW

They will also gain from Monarch's withdrawal from EMA and reduced pricing pressure at LBA v Monarch.

They continue to manage the seasonality of their bookings by using % contracts, contractors and wet lease of peak summer capacity, i think they have both wide body and narrow body airbuses in over next summer plus additional 757

Tech issues, delays and associated bad press will continue of the back of Jurassic classics.

I don't have a feel for how it will pan out for Monarch, but its going to be hard work morphing from one segment to another but the rise in airline valuations this past couple of weeks must encourage the investors of a chance of a return and their risk exposures seems limited given the assets that they will acquire probably exceed their investment and i agree with others that MAEL will likely be sold

[speedrestriction]

Any news on completion of the deal by Greybull or a further ATOL extension by the CAA? Still showing expiry on 24th October on CAA website.

[FANS]

I suspect from now on nobody will be going to bed until its done, but its not exactly a vanilla transaction!

[Buster the Bear]

So can Greybull take over and hand the 'black hole' final salary pension scheme over to the Government?

[Rushed Approach]

The "Government" doesn't pay anything to protect DB pensions.

[111KAB]

MPL students bust transfer myth - 10/22/2014 - Flight Global (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/mpl-students-bust-transfer-myth-405066/)

[Enzo999]

Makes me want to cry! I am so glad the MPL guys are "back on track". Screw the rest of us, 10 years worth of Airline experience and it counts for nothing. Everyone is so concerned with helping CTC cadets everyone else is ignored and left with no choice but to drag their families literally kicking and screaming to live in the ME. My wife cries herself to sleep every night so you will to forgive me feeling a bit bitter about jobs I could have going to a bunch of rich kids who's only concern is to maintain their hobby of airline flying.

And what is even better news is that MPL cadets will soon be recruited direct on to the RHS of wide body aircraft, which basically means Virgin, so I guess I can now scrub that off my list of possible places to work. Virgin used to be something special and an airline to aspire to, but not anymore! This industry is a joke, experience actually counts against you and before some smart arse tries to justify all this by saying airlines like the CTC "product" and the cadets are well trained etc etc, don't kid yourself, it's because they are cheap. If this carries on there will no profession left for anyone.

Apologies, rant over.

[JaxofMarlow]

I have been battered before on this forum for pointing out the impact of the flood of MPL cadets into the RHS. Enzo999 graphically describes the impact. I know for a fact he has already had 4 years in the sandpit as a result of airline failures. Whilst EZY may offer some hope for some non CTC Monarch guys a good number will be forced to revert to removing sand from their foreskins. 10 years into a career it is incredibly hard to be told you are not as valuable as zero hours cadets. But as I am sure some will say, money talks, and these guys are the cheap option for the airlines.

[fade to grey]

You speak for yourself ,pal.

I sure as hell am not semi skilled, and the sweat on my brow in the sim is a clear sign. The dedication, effort, coordination, knowledge accumulation , mental agility and responsibility alone dictate that that is not the case.

anyway, I sympathise with the monarch guys positions, I was in the same boat with astraeus exactly three years ago and its a terribly unsettling time , and it always seems to occur before Christmas as well.

Best of luck to all affected.

[Leg]

Grossly overpaid?

What :mad: planet are you on? I hope you are not in this profession (you might demean it, not me) because if you are we are well and trully stuffed with your bonkers attitude, doing managements work for them you are :ugh:

[JB007]

Enzo999,

Do not apologise for the rant, totally spot on post!

[CaptainProp]

This is what comes of having a fragmented workforce who, although heavily unionised, are never prepared to fight for their conditions and pay (At least in the UK). BALPA are always 'keeping their powder dry'. Compare and contrast pilots with tube/ train drivers.

Oh dear, you just did it John_Smith, you criticized BALPA!!! :E

BALPA - No matter how big of a storm, we keep the powder dry!

[SOPS]

Great post Enzo. It is so sad to see what has become of this industry.

[brakedwell]

Well said Enzo. The Penguins, Ostriches and Bean Counters have extracted their revenge. :ugh:

[Wickerbill]

I am glad Enzo999 posted his rant - its perfectly justified because it reflects the plight of the "experienced pilot" in the UK and W.Europe in general. The problem is, there is more than a grain of truth in what John_Smith has posted too. I think his post reflects more how pilots are viewed and treated by "the industry" rather than his opinion being we are all defacto "semi-skilled workers".

The route cause lies with EZY and RYR who have ruthlessly driven costs out of the airline model at every level to deliver "cheap" flying for the masses. They have seen rapid growth and report consistent profits with their game-changer model and this is enticingly attractive to investors and airline managers (who survive their jobs by keeping investors happy). Make no mistake, if airlines could pay the minimum wage to FO's they would (in many cases they arguably do!); fuel, maintenance, finance and wages are the big 4 in airline costs - two they cant do too much about so they will sure as hell :mad: the other two for all they can.

Sadly I don't see much hope of change anytime soon; until there is a shortage of pilots the laws of economics suggest wages and conditions will remain under pressure for some time. Unfortunately the CAA sees nothing wrong with this structural change (despite losses in experience from UK aviation), neither does BALPA and the industry remains safe enough and efficient enough so the travelling public don't care much either.

The situation at Monarch, should they stay or should they go, will do nothing to help.

[Superpilot]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

Proper careers are protected by industry regulators and unions/lobby groups who help to hammer out those regulations. Proper careers guarantee those with experience; the most to lose and the least to gain from unemployment, the right to further employability. The recruitment/employment preferences of our airlines has led to a system where one's experience doing the job works directly against one's employability.

This is what you would expect a union to address.

[A320baby]

Straight forward job? :ok:

I can assure you it's not a straight forward job, Landing on 1800m runway/64T nothing straight forward about that!

Also two days ago, landing in UK, 30kt X Wind, dark, rain! nothing straight forward about that! Go back to your office JS:ok:

[Superpilot]

A large part of the skilled vs semi-skilled job argument is to do with how often a pilot has to demonstrate the kind of skill that can bring a fully laden 200 pax jet down safely given a howling crosswind, rain and 45 mins of fuel remaining. Answer of course depends on where you are in the world but for most of us it's not very often.

Arguably, a very typical day in the world of flying a commercial airliner can be completed safely with a very basic but safety concious effort and it often does. We, as pilots are respected for our abilities to get out of the poo when it hits the fan.

Many jobs out there required similar concentration levels but the numbers required to fulfill the role are low. In piloting terms we have huge supply and a not as big demand, so the cheapest bidder wins giving arise to lowly opinions of the job from within.

[Lawro]

John_Smith is spot on !

We can big ourselves up , the reality is the company can replace us tomorrow with someone willing to take less for it & subsequently they will be pushed out by the next bloke who wants to walk around with more stripes on his shoulder & willing to do so on a lesser contract.


We can tell ourselves we can do the job better but the reality is the equiptment is so stable & reliable these days , most inexperienced guys can do a pretty good job too .


As others have said , Balpa have let us all down , they've been taking our money for a long time & doing nothing for the long term stability of our industry.


I don't think the GMC would've sat around as those idiots at Balpa have done ! Maybe it's time we all told Balpa to get their finger out or we'll be moving to a Union who is willing to do something about the realities of the industry rather than bang on about crew food ................

[IcePack]

We do a straight-forward job, with bugger all in the way of formal academic entry requirements, where the sole criterion for entry is fast becoming the size of your wallet.

Probably why we are seeing more basic airmanship & skill type crashes.
Flying is a skill & experience counts. Unfortunately the industry has forgotten this.

[Burpbot]

We earn less and get treated with less respect than train/tube drivers!

If you think been a pilot makes you special these days you are deluded! Some rich kid will always pay to get ahead! I would be very keen to become a professional train driver, but the reality is, that actually is a very skilled job and you can't just buy your way in!

[Googlebug]

"Balpa to get their finger out or we'll be moving to a Union who is willing to do something about the realities of the industry rather than bang on about crew food .."

A union is formed and directed by its members whilst constrained by the laws. Balpa is not to blame, it's the inability of its members to unite that limit much of what it can do, followed by the labour laws of the UK.

This forum is a typical example of the issues BALPA have to get over, the in fighting, one-up-man-ship, the compleate loss of faith in the profession and the can't be bothered attitude of many displayed.

We play ourselfs into the hands of airline management to divide and conquer.

[TwoTone-7]

How we perceive ourselves to be and how the industry perceives us to be are distantly apart. There's little point in glorifying the nature the nature of our work, this will achieve little until the regulators, unions act. We are remunerated on how the bean counters have successfully underplayed our role.
MPL, integrated courses. Ask any of the factory churned pilots whether they would feel comfortable flying imc, solo and in s**t weather. The answer speaks words for the level of training and the passengers are yet to realise just how competent or incompetent the guys/girls in the pointy end can be.

[RexBanner]

What are there in the way of academic entry requirements for air traffic controllers? A couple of A-Levels? Would I therefore be right to say that their job is a menial blue collar one and that they are overpaid? I wouldn't because it's an unbelievably stupid argument.

[turbine100]

With the MPL, CTC and low cost airline models. The overall salaries / packages will be less than what they were before and those that were modular are finding it even harder to join an airline working their way up, with the likes of CTC's scheme's and contracts to supply with airlines.

Pilots are now a commodity and doubt things will change until their is a proper shortage or an accident, which the regulators mandate certain experience. Like in America.

[RexBanner]

Except you are working on the massive assumption that people will remain willing to fork out over £100k when the job doesn't provide a return on investment. At the moment the career still does, barely but it does. Watch that change when it doesn't and it WILL change. That doesn't fit with the world view of the doom-mongers on this site so they will either assert it won't happen or ignore it entirely.

[Scallywag]

I must have come to the wrong thread, I thought this was about the plight of our colleagues in Monarch !

The deadline is today, get back on track.

[Trossie]

When I read posts like the very good one posted by enzo999, it makes me absolutely furious when I hear of 'public sector workers' going on strike due to some measly 'grievance' trumped up by some politically inspired union. Not one of those public sector 'workers' face having to uproot their families to some culturally alien corner of the world in order to maintain them. Not one of them will have their wives crying themselves to sleep because of that. And the likes of enzo999 would have been paying an absolute fortune in taxes to maintain that public sector 'worker' in his cushy position.

To add to that there is not as much solidarity amongst pilots as many would like to think: many of those losing their positions and wanting to take up jobs in other UK airlines would face pilots in those airlines looking down on them and saying "We don't care about all your experience and expertise, take your place down there at the bottom of our seniority list and don't you dare think of threatening my cushy position". It is not only the bean-counters and managers that have no regard for experience and expertise, it is often other pilots too.

This is a horrible industry. It has fantastic safety records due to the experience, expertise and hard work of its pilots. But it turns and kicks them in the teeth without a second thought. And its not just the bean-counters and managers often doing the kicking, but also sometimes fellow pilots. I have seen many directly and heard of many, many more situations where pilots have had absolutely appalling disruption to their lives and heartbreak for their families. This is a horrible industry.

It can be absolutely fantastic flying on a lovely day, watching a beautiful sunrise or sunset, but this is countered by those nasty CBs, howling gales and snow-closed or foggy airports; not just in pure flying terms but also in the 'figurative' job security terms with bumpy employment terms, financial bad winds through the industry or closing airlines. This is a horrible industry.

Good luck everyone in Monarch*, and if you end up in a crew-room with me you are welcome, regardless of how much you have on your shoulders (literally and figuratively!).

[Wickerbill]

This is the plight of our Monarch colleagues!
If Monarch adopt fully the LCC model then they will have to adopt the techniques employed by EZY and RYR re costs of FO crewing. They will have to compete

If Monarch does not survive they will be on the dole or heading for the Sandpit...if they are lucky.

I hope that things turn out for the better for the people at Monarch; I'm just not sure what that is?

[IcePack]

Trossie, what a nice post. Thank you

[macdo]

Semi Skilled or Skilled?
The problem is one of perception. The general public is the 1950's through to the 70's regarded anyone who flew aircraft as a bit special. The golden years of a new and romantic industry in a time when Travel was something special and largely done by only an elite few. From there on we have become regarded as arrogant and overpaid in the 80's and now, finally, as little more than an overpaid train driver. The last, IMHO, is down to the impression that we do little other than stare at the screens and read the newspapers, automation has damaged our reputation by making the mundane part of our life, flying from A to B, appear easy, which it is compared to a pilot of the 1950's. But, on a dark and stormy night, with a failure and little excess fuel we become the highly skilled professionals that the public rarely hear about.( Capt. Sullenberger being the obvious exception) And we are worth a darn sight more than we are paid and deserve a darn sight more respect than our employers regularly show us.
It doesn't matter how OFTEN you have to use this skill, it matters that you have it ready when it is needed.

[mesh]

well the good news is we got paid last night so fingers crossed for later. Must make sure I take my visa with me on my flight today just in case I have to make my own way home :)

[Lawro]

Line up ,

I agree with your post & many others on here but we need someone like Balpa to start & help us all out here.


If you look at how much Balpa are getting from pilots annually , it's an astonishing amount of money .


I have been on at my crew council but think we all need to push our own colleagues to get Balpa to talk pan company & do something to provide a framework for looking after our careers.


First Choice a couple of years ago made redundancies & went to great efforts to help the unfortunate few get replacements.


Wouldn't it be great if Balpa could actually DO something on our behalf particularly for those who , like the more senior guys at Monarch have a great deal to loose , if they were interested in helping they could perhaps negotiate with other companies who we know have a requirement for Captains & experience , to prevent these guys loosing everything when there's insufficient time to rebuild a pension fund or re-climb the ladder.


I hope Monarch don't need it but let's get on with it before its too late .

[Lawro]

I don't know the answer I'm affraid Line Up but I do think more pressure on the CC to do more for the general pilot workforce would be a good start !

[MKY661]

Monarch operating Business as usual tomorrow according to Twitter, so either the sale is completed or the CAA have extended their license. Going to announce the news in a few hours.

[Wickerbill]

I thought an announcement was due by mid-afternoon? As we are now heading for close of play...
Does anybody know anything?

[9 minutes to landing]

The CAAs ATOL check function has just been taken off the air for maintenance. Might be an update on its way for COSMOS.....

[Funderblaster]

Meaning the plug has been pulled ?

[RAT 5]

The route cause lies with EZY and RYR who have ruthlessly driven costs out of the airline model at every level to deliver "cheap" flying for the masses.

If the information is correct SWA have cheap prices and high salaries and happy crews and pax. If they can get it right why can not the copy cats?

I'm not a member of BALPA or IAPLA, but, I read your distrust and lack of expectations here, and quotes of past lackings. I'm curious. BALPA seem to do OK by BA, or am I wrong. How much of the 1% of non-BA airlines go back to helping their causes, and how much goes into the BALPA pot which is directed towards helping internal local BA causes? Surely there must be an audit of BALPA accounts and you will be able to see how much has been spent, and where, and see what return you've had on your investment/membership dues directly with your company. Equally, about 4 years ago there was a massive drive by IALPA to recruit RYR members. They must have had a massive influx of cash, easily over €1m, but what have the members seen for their contribution. Just where does all this dosh go? There seems to be a black hole, considering how the unions have allowed the industry to decline in economic standing for its members. Someone must know.

[Lawro]

Have you ever seen the car park at Balpa House ? They don't have the uncertainty of the cut throat commercial World either !!!!

[MikeAlphaTangoTango]

Sold to Greybull Capital

http://www.monarchholdingslimited.com/media/news-and-press-releases/2014/monarch-secures-₤125-million-of-permanent-capital-and-liquidity-facilities-through-sale-to-greybull-capital/

[FANS]

Completion at last!

[Whiskey Zulu]

The Monarch Group - Monarch secures ?125 million of permanent capital and liquidity facilities through sale to Greybull Capital (http://www.monarchholdingslimited.com/media/news-and-press-releases/2014/monarch-secures-%E2%82%A4125-million-of-permanent-capital-and-liquidity-facilities-through-sale-to-greybull-capital/)
They better not let all those years of hard work, dedication and professionalism go to waste for the sake of short term gain. Monarch staff past and present have sacrificed SO much for the sake of a continued future. My best wishes go to all concerned.

[tubby linton]

So Monarch are gomg lo-cost and short haul only ,but Ryanair are thinking about selling holidays and Jet 2 are going into long haul to SFB next year with an A330. Seabury consulting are US based where charter flying does not exist so they come up with a plan for Mon to be a minnow against the lo-co big boys. The family meanwhile have invested £50m which is strangely close to the deposit for the B737 max which Seabury have decided the airline needs even though it is shortly to become a purely Airbus operator.Another part of Seabury helped in the sale of the company.
I wonder if all the ties lead back to Lugano or the Lady Marina?

[waco]

As an ex Monarch employee I am delighted to hear the news.

I wish everyone at George VI Airlines every possible success.

However, is it realistic that this revamped operation can make money in the shadow of EZY and RYR. without their economies of scale ? whilst being saddled with a massive pensions deficit.

So sorry but if the spotty M is still operating this time next year I will eat my hat.

(PS four of the airlines I have worked for are no longer operating so I DO know how such things effect ever single employee at every level and the heart ache involved )

[New T2 Office]

waco


"whilst being saddled with a massive pensions deficit"



As an ex employee, you obviously weren't in the DB scheme....otherwise you would have read the details of the pension in the email sent a few hours ago.

Suffice to say, Mon will not be saddled with any deficit.........:mad::mad:

[waco]

Good...I'm pleased.......really am.....

But how are they going to make money....................

[JaxofMarlow]

This is awesome good news. We do not need a whole industry dominated by two major players. Monarch will be small and time will tell whether their scale is great enough to cope and generate what will be required. But significant changes have been made and huge sacrifices taken by the staff. But it is a good brand so I am hopeful. So so pleased that 34 aircraft are retained instead of 30. This has made a difference in terms of the number of redundancies. I think that all should be really happy that this brand stays in the air. It will not hurt or threaten EZY or RYR so all should be cheered by todays news.