MH17 down near Donetsk

[Planespeaking]

Just being reported by news agencies that a Malaysian airliner has crashed near the Ukraine/Russian border.

[Kempus]

On bbc news at the moment. 777 with 229 pax 15 crew.
Not good at all.

[1stspotter]

This was flight MH017 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. 250 passengers and 15 crew members. Very very sad. It disappeared from radar at Russia Ukraine border near the city of Rostov on Don. Registration is 9M-MRD a Boeing 777-200

[Kamelchaser]

Is it a coincidence that the Russians shot down a Ukranian fighter a few hours earlier?

[Kamelchaser]

There was a ukranian military cargo aircraft shot down a few days ago at 6,500m..then the fighter earlier today?.....now this at 10,000m. Must be connected. Right in the middle of the conflict area.

[Straighten Up]

If true - this is a huge game changer in that conflict and desperately sad for all involved. I can't see a hand held getting to FL33 which makes it look military rather than militant.

There is a notam at the moment whenever I look at routes on Skydemon warning about the airspace on that border. Is this within that area and are most carriers avoiding the area as a matter of course?

[tbaylx]

There aren't too many missiles that will hit an airliner at cruise altitude. Certainly not the average MANPAD that a rebel group would have.

It has to be a large SAM with associated ground support and guidance equipment, usually government military run.

[mickrussom]

News here saying at-altitude incident - with a descent - then a bunch of taking heads are saying a missile strike @ 21000ft. Military analyst on TV news saying this was likely shot down.

[MarkD]

oh no: MAS confirms lost contact - https://twitter.com/MAS/status/489795857101750272

[con-pilot]

Doesn't go up 33,000 ft

SAMs certainly do go up to FL330 and higher.

[JamesT73J]

Doesn't go up 33,000 ft

It most certainly does. And much higher.

[737Jock]

Malaysian plane crashes on Ukraine-Russia border - live - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10974050/Malaysian-plane-crashes-on-Ukraine-Russia-border-live.html)

[mickrussom]

Now there are reports of the BUK missile system being installed recently and the altitude that it was taken down from was 31000. Apparently there were several incidents in the last week with military planes in Ukraine having been shot down.

[WilyB]

Buk missile system target engagement zone for an aircraft:

altitude – 15 м – 25 km
range – 3 km – 42 km

[Yonosoy Marinero]

Another MH 777 has just been lost over eastern Ukraine. It fell in the contested eastern part of Ukraine, where fighting has been going on and near where an Ukrainian military aircraft was downed recently.

Speculations have started about a SAM missile strike, possibly launched by the separatists rebels, themselves militarily backed by Russia.
I have a feeling this will escalate politically very quickly.

It is a tragic stint of bad luck for MH. RIP to all lost.

I was wondering why our routing from London had us fly North over Denmark rather than the usual central European route over Ukraine the other day... I guess no one tipped MH?

Grab yourself a beer, this is about to get interesting.

[Bearcat]

2 777 hull losses in 12months....gruesome.

[n6330v]

Wonder if NATO had any active AWACS monitoring the space during the incident. Would be interesting to see, if they did, what kind of data shows up.

[ALPHA ECHO]

on Flightradar24 the skys are busy over the Ukraine at the moment. Its likely that any NOTAM published regarding the conflict has not been robust enough to prevent civilian Airlines giving the entire area a wide birth. Terrible tragedy for any airline, but particularly devestating for MAS.

[tlbrown350]

Heres is link to video just uploaded.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/489495/Malaysia-passenger-plane-MH17-crashes

[AucT]

Video of alleged crash sight of Malaysian Boeing in Shakhyorsk, Ukraine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JhUkqs9CQ0w

[Bokkenrijder]

Wonder if NATO had any active AWACS monitoring the space during the incident. Would be interesting to see, if they did, what kind of data shows up.
Right, and that data will be completely objective and not manipulated?

I was just watching CNN. :yuk: The wreckage hasn't even been found yet but the main stream propaganda media is already pointing the finger to Russia. :=

[yst_01]

All 295 people aboard #MH17 from Amsterdam killed after being hit by Buk missle, a Ukrainian interior ministry official was quoted as saying by Interfax-Ukraine news agency.

[n6330v]

I wouldn't trust any media out of Ukraine at the present...too many political agendas circulating to give them credibility. Same with Russia.

As far as AWACS data is concerned, you'd hope that it would at least an indicator of the events that transpired.

[HeathrowAirport]

This has just been posted on Twitter by Chris Martinez from CBS News.

Also the flight plan.

(FPL-MAS17-IS
-B772/H-SDFGHIJ3J5M1RWXY/LB1D1
-EHAM1000
-N0490F310 ARNEM UL620 SUVOX UZ713 OSN UL980 MOBSA DCT POVEL DCT SUI L980 UTOLU/N0490F330 L980 LDZ M70 BEMBI L980 PEKIT/N0480F350 L980 TAMAK/N0480F350 A87 TIROM/N0490F350 A87 MAMED B449 RANAH L750 ZB G201 BI DCT MURLI DCT TIGER/N0490F370 L333 KKJ L759 PUT R325 VIH A464 DAKUS DCT
-WMKK1137 WMSA WMKP
-EET/EDGG0017 EDWW0023 EDUU0036 EPWW0052 UKLV0135 UKBV0153 UKDV0225 URRV0255 UATT0347 UTAK0411 UTAA0432 UTAV0507 OAKX0518 OPLR0601 OPKR0616 VIDF0631 VABF0725 VECF0747 VYYF0926 VOMF0930 VTBB1013 WMFC1051 REG/9MMRD PBN/A1B1C1D1L1O1S2 SEL/QREJ DOF/140717 RMK/ACASII EQUIPPED)

[WilyB]

All 295 people aboard #MH17 from Amsterdam killed after being hit by Buk missle, a Ukrainian interior ministry official was quoted as saying by Interfax-Ukraine news agency.

The only way the Ukrainian can know the type of missile is if it's one of theirs... :ooh:

[wild goose]

In October 2001 the Ukrainians shot down Siberian Airlines flt 1812 when an air defense exercise went wrong. 78 dead.

[Blacksheep]

Would have been packed with Malaysian students returning home for the Eid Ul Fitr festival at the end of the academic year. :(

[WhatsaLizad?]

LHR,

IMHO, that wreckage pic looks like from the previous AN26 shoot down from a couple days ago.

[Pander216]

Post #58: That looks like a tail section, APU and elevator to me...

[aviator1970]

At 33000' altitude a missile aircraft hit by a missile would cause it to breakup in all probably. Esp since explosive decompression cant be ruled out. Smoke rising looks like a single point of impact. A Buk SAM has a max altitude of about 46000'... RIP poor souls.

[con-pilot]

IMHO, that wreckage pic looks like from the previous AN26 shoot down from a couple days ago.

I agree, does not look like a 777.

[jlsmith]

@rjamesjones on Twitter:

On rebel commander Strelkov's page "We warned you not to fly in our sky." He
thought they'd shot a Ukrainian plane.

vk.com/strelkov_info

[aviator1970]

Looks like and APU of Antonov and the engine cowling is visible too

[Stone_cold]

ATPMBA .

Look up IR655 . Just in case .

[Flightmech]

Jesus, if its an inadvertent shoot down by rebel forces of all the airlines it could have happened to.

[tdracer]

From USAToday:

the plane was flying at an altitude of 33,000 feet when it was hit Thursday by a missile fired from a Buk launcher, the Associated Press reports.
BUK, also known as SA-17 GRIZZLY, is a mobile anti-aircraft system mounted usually on a tracked vehicle or truck that can simultaneously track and strike six targets flying from different directions and at different altitudes, according to military thinktank Globalsecurity.org.

A similar launcher was seen by AP journalists near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne earlier Thursday.

[RAT 5]

All the talk about closed airways and declared war zone etc. etc. What do the NOTAMS say? Which ATC was controlling this flight? Were they in radio contact? Was a MayDay put out? Were there any other a/c on the same route? What's happened to the route now? Why was it open if the skies had been proved dangerous in the previous days?
The military boys might be able to tell us what level of identification is needed for a ground launch to an airborne target? If the a/c was squawking a civilian transponder code, and on a filed flight plan, and if it was VMC it should have been identifiable as civilian. Someone with lots of pips on their shoulder must have given the fire order. How many aggressive military large twin engined a/c are there?
After the US carrier shot down the civilian by the Italian coast, their mitigating circumstances was it seemed it was on an aggressive flight profile. This one was high-level straight & level.
Lots of questions; no answers, yet. Perhaps the first person to fall on their sword will give us a clue.

[flt001]

Image out there, unconfirmed but still:

http://i.imgur.com/5cnNq2R.jpg

Sad to say images of bodies are also doing the rounds on twitter. Sickening. No more 'social' media for me today.

[nickmo]

BREAKING Boing777 Of #Malaysian Airlines Shot Down In Shakhtersk Donetsk Oblast Ukraine July17 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ho3S38i1Nsw)


Further YouTube upload with subtitles - '....you can see parts falling..... it was hit and broke into two....'

[n6330v]

From BBC Live Updates:

"17:14:
A Reuters reporter has reached the scene and has described seeing burning wreckage of the airplane, with bodies on the ground, the agency reports."

[liider]

and this

https://twitter.com/varlamov/status/489806540082544640/photo/1

[Puck2]

Words on Dutch TV: shotdown by SA 6

[liider]

This NOTAM is about Crimea and international waters, not that territory.

[Christodoulidesd]

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/600x359q90/540/b6a3fd.jpg

[liider]

And for those writing about Russia, the plane was in a Ukranian airspace and crashed on the Ukranian territory,

[wildingb]

"CNN just reported on-air that pro-Russian separatists claimed to have shot down a second Ukrainian military plane shortly before the report of MH17 being missing. They were careful not to say the planes were one and the same, but the lack now of a downed Ukrainian plane does make one wonder."

Cue rumors and conspiracy theories, but apparently there were some tweets...

[oggers]

NOTAM or otherwise, I don't understand why commercial traffic is flying over a conflict zone where only days ago a transport aircraft was shot down at high altitude. Absolutely bonkers.

[6000PIC]

There are people in Ukraine / Russia who know who pulled the trigger to launch this " assumed " SAM , they will be found and they will be punished.
Considering all the time spent searching for the reasons of MH 370's disappearance , the search for the culprits in this case will be swifter and far more determined.
If it was a national military involved , a ban on their nations' airlines would at least be a minimal consideration.

[ph-ndr]

Potentially OT, but lots of traffic is transitting this area as many companies have routed traffic north of Irak coming up towards Europe. I passed the exact same spot early this morning as SLF.

[mrangar]

I would not hold my breath for anyone getting punished. Look up what happened to the Russians that brought down KAL007, and Americans that brought down Iran Air 655.

[JW411]

It's all about keeping the accountants happy by taking the shortest possible route until it all goes wrong, like today. I doubt that you will be able to get an MH accountant to answer the phone right now. I hope they sleep well tonight.

[Jetset320]

Nickfisher, he means the Itavia DC-9 (Italian) in the 80s.

[A_Van]

First, the plane was shot well inside the Ukrainian territory. The "Buk" system cannot operate at such ranges if it were deployed on the Russian territory.



Second, the Ukrainian army does have Buk systems. And they are notorious for erroneously shooting down a plane coming from Israel to Russia some 10-15 years ago. However, I can hardly believe they did it, unless anybody went totally mad or planned a provocation to blame Russia.


There were unconfirmed rumors that the Ukrainian rebels in the south-eastern part of the country have recently got 1-2 Buk complexes after their successful offensive towards some (Ukrainian) army locations (home bases). In a similar way they got some IFVs and artillery systems earlier because the army is very weak. If the latter is true and the system is operative and in use, then most likely the rebels thought it was a transport aircraft of the Ukrainian Air Force. They shot down one or two of them very recently.



Anyway, there should be E-3 Sentry and also the Russian A-50s monitoring the conflict area from far away, so the records should exist. Also, the flight recorders should not be damaged.

[San Diego kid]

Ukrainian rebel commander posted something about shooting down a Antonov at about the same time MH flight crasht......I can see it happening that way, rebel crew with a missile system of what they are not exact sure how to handle it, let alone being able to recognize plane types on FL 33.

[con-pilot]

I cannot believe that the Russians would have shot this aircraft down, or that he Ukrainian Government would have either.

The rebels, now that's another story.

But please keep in mind, all we really know is that it crashed.

[MOE EDSK]

This NOTAM apparently refers to the Russian takeover of the Crimea:

Reuters 03 Apr. 2014

(Reuters) - Europe's aviation safety authority warned on Thursday of "serious risks" for international airlines flying over Crimea because there may be two services managing airspace there after the region's annexation by Russia.
The European Aviation Safety Agency said Russia had published a series of notices saying it intended to provide air traffic services within the area controlled by the flight information center at Simferopol, Crimea's main airport.
EASA, which is based in Germany, therefore said national aviation authorities in Europe should encourage carriers to avoid the airspace over Crimea, which Russia seized from Ukraine last month, and use alternative routes.
"It is unsafe if more than one Air Traffic Service provider is in charge of one single Flight Information Region (FIR); no compromise can be made with the safety of the flying passengers," Patrick Ky, executive director at EASA, said.
Europe safety agency urges airlines to avoid Crimean airspace | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/03/us-ukraine-crisis-airspace-idUSBREA321P120140403)

I could not find any NOTAM warning against overflying of the war theater, even after several aircraft had been shot down.

[MyNameWasTaken]

According to a BBC interview of an ex ambassador to the Ukraine, a pro-Russian rebel leader has admitted they shot MH17 down, thinking it was a Ukrainian transport plane.

[SaturnV]

Ukraine admits it shot down Russian airliner - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/1359353/Ukraine-admits-it-shot-down-Russian-airliner.html)

Departed Tel Aviv so the Israeli's got involved in the investigation.

[Walnut]

This a/c came down near the Ukrainian/Russian border surely the slant range will almost certainly mean the missile started life in Russia from a ground based truck
If this is proved this could lead to war.

[angels]

The rebels have removed references to the shooting down of another AN26 that they posted earlier today.

AP reported the rebels had a Buk launcher.

I am jumping to conclusions here. :(

The rebels did it.

[short bus]

Is it a safe assumption that these mobile SAM launchers don't have the capability to receive commercial transponder information? Do they function using primary radar only? I would think a shootdown that was coordinated by a government would have looked for transponder info before launching. Of course that assumes rational actors.

[1a sound asleep]

URRV V6158/14 17JUL0000-31AUG2359 EST
DUE TO COMBAT ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE NEAR THE STATE BORDER WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE FACTS OF FRNG FM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF RUSSIAN FEDERATION, TO ENSURE INTL FLT SAFETY, ATS RTE SEGMENTS CLSD AS FLW:
A100 MIMRA - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
B145 KANON - ASMIL,
G247 MIMRA - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
A87 TAMAK - SARNA, :ooh:

[McRotor96]

Almost no chance it came from Ukraine military. The rebels don't have any planes, so they posed no threat from the air. No risk of shooting off a missile. The culprits are either Russia or the Russian-armed rebels. The answer may well come down to what hardware shot it down.

What a terrible terrible waste of life, and so many people's lives ruined for ever today. Dreadful.

[visibility3miles]

Putin broke the news to Obama because the plane crashed right before (or during) a scheduled phone call.

This includes many new details. It also says that it was far enough inside Ukraine that a Russian Buk couldn't have reached it. That point will be argued.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/official-malaysian-plane-shot-down-over-ukraine-154029763.html

[mrangar]

Just going by past history, if armed forces of a country did this, it will go away quietly with some sort of civil suit (Iran Air 655, KAL 007). If it was the rebels, they will have the hammer of Thor come down upon them.

[Nik4Me]

In reply to #54
using the link you provided leads to the info, that the separatists commanders deny involvement in the downing of the plane. They say that they only have weaponry able to reach to 3000 meters.

@rjamesjones on Twitter:

On rebel commander Strelkov's page "We warned you not to fly in our sky." He
thought they'd shot a Ukrainian plane.

vk.com/strelkov_info

[givemewings]

Could be the angle, but the only comment I'll make is that the door size on the photo of the two guys standing on fuselage seems wrong for a 777.... even for the LR3 on a 777-300...

He takes up the whole door frame, you can easily board two at a time through a 777 door.

Where did this photo come from?

[rgbrock1]

"Mistaken" for a military plane? This flight was even trackable via Flightradar24.com and still some idiot pushes a button and kills 295 people.

Russia/Soviet Union has done it before. KAL Flt. 700 anyone?

[liider]

New press release by so-called "rebel government":


"The B777 was shot down by the Ukranian military fighter jet, that attacked the airliner, it split in two parts and fell down. After that the fighter jet was shot down by our forces. Now we are looking for it on the ground."

[Jn14:6]

Y.M.
Dunno when you last operated to LHR, but we go nowhere near Ukraine, way too far south! Routing not changed for a good while, and Scandinavia quite normal.

[visibility3miles]

rgbrock1 The Ukrainians said it was shot down by a Buk launcher. They may be pointing fingers.

It's too early for anyone besides the responsible party to determine the cause of the crash.

[Pittsextra]

Russia/Soviet Union has done it before. KAL Flt. 700 anyone?

And for balance other accidents have happened.....

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655)

[Smoketrails]

@ givemewings

FFS, emergency exits!!!!!!!!!! Color and cheatline are Malaysian!!!

[yst_01]

In the news they say around 80 kids on board, about 20 pax with US-passport...

[High-higher]

Why is everybody so sure it was a missile, it seems like the most likely cause, but is there any 100% confirmation?

[SaturnV]

The crash site supposedly is Grabovo, Donetsk Oblast, which would be about 30 KM northwest of the Russian Ukraine border. If so, forward momentum would suggest it was hit further west.

[Tfor2]

What was that airliner doing in that airspace? Do United/Delta/American/BA/Virgin etc. avoid it or what?

[CDN_ATC]

The last rough reported radar hit.

The last reported area of the crash site... roughly....

http://i.imgur.com/TpAiRusl.png

250NM? Something's not adding up

[CDN_ATC]

Black box found 60KM from Russian border.... which again confuses this

[5 APUs captain]

There are NOT only two (rebels and ukrainian army) forces there!
At least two more are fighting there: National guard (ex-"Right sector" from western Ukraine) and private!!! army of Kolomoisky (local oligarсh).

[ExXB]

Media Statement : MH17 Incident

Released at 12:30am/18 July 2014

Malaysia Airlines confirms it received notification from Ukrainian ATC that it had lost contact with flight MH17 at 1415 (GMT) at 30km from Tamak waypoint, approximately 50km from the Russia-Ukraine border.

Flight MH17 operated on a Boeing 777 departed Amsterdam at 12.15pm (Amsterdam local time) and was estimated to arrive at Kuala Lumpur International Airport at 6.10 am (Malaysia local time) the next day.

The flight was carrying 280 passengers and 15 crew onboard.

Travel Advisory - Media Statement 1 : MH17 Incident | Malaysia Airlines (http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/hq/en/travel_advisory/statement1_mh17.html)

[TEEEJ]

The separatists have been boasting for weeks that they have captured Ukrainian SA-11 Buk systems. The SA-11 can be guided without radar using an optical tracker and laser ranging.

Donetsk militia takes control of Ukrainian anti-air installation

The self-defense forces of Donetsk People’s Republic seized control of a Ukrainian anti-air military installation, RIA Novosti reports.

"The forces of Donetsk People’s Republic assumed control of A-1402 military base," the militia's representative said. According to him, it is an anti-aircraft missile forces facility equipped with Buk mobile surface-to-air missile systems.

Donetsk militia takes control of Ukrainian anti-air installation - News - World - The Voice of Russia: News, Breaking news, Politics, Economics, Business, Russia, International current events, Expert opinion, podcasts, Video (http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_29/Donetsk-militia-takes-control-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installation-1561/)

[Tfor2]

In April, US flights were warned not to fly over conflict-ridden regions of eastern Ukraine by the FAA earlier this year. (Reported in the Guardian Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 'crashes in Ukraine' - live updates | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live) which is maintaining updates.)

[Nik4Me]

Russian airlines Aeroflot and Transaero ordered not to fly over the Ukraine effective immediately

[Yonosoy Marinero]

I don't go there often, admittedly, but I do remember most of my CDG/LHR/FRA trips to go back through Ukraine. It might have been a jetstream/seasonal thing.

It is increasingly likely now that the separatists did shoot it down, with equally increasing likelihood that they used a BUK system either stolen from the Ukrainian military or, and I fear that's the case, on a courtesy loan from Putin.

Theories abound already, including one which seems to indicate an Ukrainian military transport was flying nearby bringing relief to ground troops and which the separatists might have thought they were targeting.
That, of course, entails a certain level of intelligence which, by any definition of the word, this hodgepodge group of russophiles is clearly unable to provide on their own...

I have $10 saying they never find the CVR/FDR.

This is absolutely, shockingly, disastrous. There is no excuse for any of this.

[short bus]

photo of a BUK launcher supposedly taken in a town 75k E of Donetsk:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bswxl1_IIAEyI8S.jpg

[roving]

Reuters tweets: #BREAKING: Number of dead from crash of #MH17 more than 300, includes 23 U.S. citizen: Interior Ministry adviser, quoted by Interfax



Which means the US now has involvement in the investigation.

[quadspeed]

All our arrivals come in much further north via St Petersburg, the Baltics and Scandinavia.

Our returns either go via Belarus (Minsk) / Moscow or much further south via the Black Sea / Georgia.

Been that way for at least 10 years.

[Con-Trail]

What do you guys think about the possibility of it being a bomb?

Could mean a massive security breach at AMS...

[con-pilot]

Debris falling from the sky at the #MH17 crash site

That is what it looks like to me.

[roving]

The BBC reporting that the aircraft appears to have broken up before impact with debris scattered over a wide area.

[Caygill]

Ukrainian airforce, tons of BUK-M1, S-200 and S-300 systems: Ukrainian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Air_Force#Structure)

Naturally this doesn't indicate who did it, or even if it was in fact shoot down with a missile, even less with a Russian made.

[despegue]

This debris is a proof of catastrophic structural damage inflight obviously.
The debris seem to be falling near the main impact site, implying that the aircraft might have disintegrated and was not controlled in any way after the damage occured. ( same forward velocity of all parts).

As the crashsite is in Rebel controlled territory, it will be another battle on who is responsible for the investigation...

[eu01]

Russian News Agency RIA Novosti tweets: Putin expresses his "sincere condolences" to Malaysian PM on MH17 aircraft crash
As saturated with hypocrisy as possible, n'est-ce pas? Regardless of which forces actually knocked the plane out of the sky, isn't somebody who ignited the entire conflict morally responsible for what happens thereafter? Of course one should first be able to comprehend what the moral responsibility actually means.

[smoothound54]

regardless of what caused this sad and terrible event - I wonder when ECTRL will be mentioned on the news reports? given they have flight plan and actual route data etc - also wonder why they haven't been coordinating flight plan alternatives to avoid conflict area?

I mean risk assessment? I know there has been no official evidence of deployment of sophisticated AA - but separatists situation + russians possibly supplying weapons + russian supported rebels being at risk from Ukrainian Govt air superiority + recent effective rebel anti-aircraft deployment (even if at low altitude) = no risk? I don't think so! :oh:

[RiSq]

Looking at the feed the BBC is showing, you can see the lighter Debris still falling where the smoke is rising. Can see the multiple long,white streaming items falling as well as metalic parts.

The impact does not indicate a nose heavy impact, so its unlikely that the floating debris is a side effect of that.

This was definately breaking up before impact with the ground.

[FlyMD]

Well if the missile came from the "rebel" side (read: Putin's merry band of rascals...), then Ukraine needs to be a NATO member next week..

If it came from the Ukrainian side, which I doubt, then the bunch in power in. Kiev need to go, pronto! And that's going to get complicated..

Whatever the outcome, it will not be a good one, but taking civil air trafic hostage to regional conflicts cannot be tolerated, and I will support whoever gets this point across! Too bad all the big players have already lost the moral high ground on this particular subject...

[short bus]

screenshot of the rebel post claiming a cargo plane shootdown. He even posted a photo of the smoke plume which matches the current crash site imagery:

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/jkgi7zy7bksbqz5y3r6l.jpg

[win_faa]

Looking at the video posted at CNN showing MH17 impacting the ground then bursting into flames the moment of ground impact, I could not see any sort of trail showing signs of burning debris as it strikes the ground. Its quite strange :uhoh:

[Yonosoy Marinero]

You are absolutely right, quad. The wee hour and half a bottle of wine got the best of my geographical perspective already.
Well, if CX's own brand of training managed to teach me one thing, it's how to swallow my pride.

It appears the separatists did indeed steal a SAM battery from the Ukrainian army during the conflict...

I'll go to bed now.

[Planespeaking]

Phazes

If it's a catastrophic structural failure at cruising altitude the cause is immaterial. It could be a SAM, a bomb or a hundred other reasons, but the spread of debris from that height will still be the same.

[Capetonian]

Reported - Flight recorders found and are being sent to Moscow.

Apparently almost 50% on board are NL originating (not necessarily citizens). This is from a source whose information should be reliable (but I'm only the messenger so don't have a go at me if incorrect.)

[roving]

There were European passengers on the flight -- four French citizens have so far been identified. It is yet unclear if other European passengers were on the flight.

[Capt.KAOS]

Locals apparently looting the crash site:

'Mensen plunderen brokstukken vliegtuig' | Binnenland | Telegraaf.nl (http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/22867086/___Brokstukken_geplunderd___.html)

Incredible that they fly directly over war area with several planes being shot down already....

[caiman27]

At this point in time, and given the systems in place and level of interest in current events in eastern Ukraine, it would be reasonable to assume that the Russians know exactly what happened, the Ukrainians have a good idea and the USA is also well informed.

The pro-Russian commander's FB post is obviously the boast about the smoking gun.

This is Putin's nightmare.

[afootsoldier]

The people on that aircraft were badly let down. Not only by the lunatic in East Ukraine who pulled the trigger, but by the airline industry. It could have been ANY airlines aircraft... It could have been ANY of us...

All airlines say that safety is their number one priority. Flying over or to/from war zones could scarcely be more clear cut.

It took a long time to close southern Ukrainian airspace, following the Russian invasion. To begin with the Ukrainians controlled the airspace from a different control centre and pretended everything was normal down below. The airlines lapped it up because it meant keeping direct routings open, to and from Europe.

The airlines should have been proactive - it was nothing less than their duty, but they weren't - in the case of Simferopol but also elsewhere in Ukraine. It needed common sense and a bit less greed. The threat was so obvious.

[win_faa]

@500N

here it is...
Malaysia Airlines crash: Video shows the moment MH17 crashed - YouTube

[Planespeaking]

"Flight recorders being sent to Moscow". Well that's ok then, I have complete confidence in the accident investigation!!

[AirScotia]

I copied the page of the pro-Russian commander, and this is the translated version:

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m210/cpav11/vk1_zps1b8448da.gif (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/cpav11/media/vk1_zps1b8448da.gif.html)

[roving]

The British Guardian newspaper has 'chapter & verse' on the rebel website which, according to that newspaper, initially claimed responsibility for shooting down an aeroplane violating its airspace. Apparently that site has since been taken down, but not before it was copied by the Western media. If correctly copied and translated, the rebels thought they were shooting down a Ukrainian transport plane, and that Ukraine had been warned not to invade the rebels' airspace.

Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live)

[Evanelpus]

There is at least one other thread running, can I politely suggest that the mods merge all threads into one?

Thank you.

[AreOut]

"Ukrainian rebel commander posted something about shooting down a Antonov at about the same time MH flight crasht......I can see it happening that way, rebel crew with a missile system of what they are not exact sure how to handle it, let alone being able to recognize plane types on FL 33."

I also think this is what happened, however if you are ATC(or FAA or whatever authority) you simply don't allow planes to fly over a warzone, it's stupid and sooner or later has to result with this...

[TwoHeadedTroll]

@Planespeaking (http://www.pprune.org/members/425219-planespeaking)

If it's a catastrophic structural failure at cruising altitude the cause is immaterial. It could be a SAM, a bomb or a hundred other reasons, but the spread of debris from that height will still be the same.

For PanAm 103, the bomb made a small hole in the fuselage, breaking off the nose cone and an engine. The bulk of the plane continued intact until the plane reached 19,000 feet, at which point it went vertical. The main parts of the fuselage were within 2.4 km.

If this plane was hit mid-section by a SA-11 missile with a 70kg fragmentation high explosive warhead (as claimed), I would imagine glide of any kind would be highly improbable, and debris would therefore be far more concentrated.

[Speed of Sound]

"Flight recorders being sent to Moscow"

We don't even know that they have been found, let alone where they have been sent! :confused:

[FlightCosting]

According to channel 4 news Putin has called the Malaysian PM and asked if Russian specialists can help with the investigation!!

I wonder why?

[lalbak]

Just saw a live feed from Russian TV, they showed the tail section largely intact with a section of the leading edge and the rudder missing. Seems any impact would not have been near the tail section.

[NG1]

I'm wondering who is currently at the crash site? The Ukrainian army? Rebels? If so, which rebels? This might have considerable influence on the on the on-site investigation, the question of where to send flightrecorders (if found) and so on...

[Chronus]

If indeed this proves to be a shooting down of a civilian airliner by military or para military forces, then I am afraid the words "What Have We Learned" of the Aviation Crisis Management workshop held in Brussels, 22-23 May 2012 ring hollow. See below for further particulars:

http://www.eurocontrol.int/sites/default/files/field_tabs/content/documents/events/120522-crisis-workshop-what-eyjafjallajokull-taught-us-sultana.pdf

Surely the Balkan Wars had tought us something. Those of us who were around then remember the airspace closures over the area.
To allow civilian flights over a known area of escalating hostilities on the ground and in the air would be tantamount to criminal negligence. I expect soon airspace closures and restrictions will follow, but sadly it will be all too late for all those innocent lives lost in yet in another mans war.

[ARRAKIS]

Russian ITAR-TASS informing about an An-26 being shot down by a missile.
????-????: ????????????? ???????? - ????????? ??????????????? ??? ????? ??????? ??-26 ?????????? ??? (http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1325017)

But it wasn't an An-26.

[despegue]

Planespeaking,

MAK, the Russian Aviation Investigation Bureau is known to be one of the best if not THE best in its field and is absolutely independent and professional!

Get your facts straight first and do not believe all they say in the biassed Western media.

[short bus]

cable news claims the rebels are threatening to shell the crash site to keep investigators away.

[TC_Ukraine]

russian terrorists previously reported about an26 down by them, but....there was no an26 there. crash site is under control of terrorists, so black boxes and debris shall be transfered to Russia.
MH17 was flying to TAMAK, 20 seconds before disappearing from radars got shortcut to some point in Rostov's zone.

[Boudreaux Bob]

if you are ATC(or FAA or whatever authority) you simply don't allow planes to fly over a warzone, it's stupid and sooner or later has to result with this...

How much of the Middle East, Africa, and other locales in the World would that close to air traffic?

Care to post a Map with all the places that would qualify?

[AreOut]

TSA scanning your inner organs yet planes are allowed to fly over warzones

logic of todays world

[777fly]

Two Headed Troll:

Your description of what happened to Panam 103 is completely wrong. The complete nose section forward of door 1 broke off and the aircraft then fell in several large parts from cruising altitude.

[afootsoldier]

Fireflybob, I think maybe your comment was removed, however -

re: hindsight - this has not come out of the blue. Far from it. Aircraft after aircraft has been shot down in Ukrainian airspace - the airlines decided it was business as usual despite those undisputed facts.

It's not a question of hindsight - there needs to be an inquiry into how commercial airliners have been allowed to continue to operate in an active war zone.

[dessas]

As far as I can remember the Tu-22 shot down over Georgia in August '08 was shot by a Buk system imported from Ukraine and manned by Ukrainians...
LiveLeak.com - Russian supersonic bomber Tu-22M3 shoot down by georgian anti-aircraft forces
:confused:

[6000PIC]

Flight crews now have another unfortunate example upon which to refer when insisting on the safest flight plan routing possible. The CEO must be held responsible for allowing the bean counters to dictate to the flight operations department to choose the least expensive route instead of the safest. Another glaring example of putting profit before safety. Heads should roll and shame should be directed at those responsible for this absurd example of risk management.

[bardos]

ABC News also says that the "rebels" have the black box(es) and will turn them over only to the Russians

[NG1]

If black boxes are handed over to the Russians in theory (!!!) they should send them to Kiev, as the crash site is clearly within Ukrainian boundaries. In a (most possibly) political case like this I guess a close cooperation of Russian and Ukrainian officials would result in the most trustworthy report, but I'm afraid that's (very) naive thinking...

[thf]

If black boxes are handed over to the Russians in theorie (!!!) they should send them to Kiev, as the crash site is clearly within Ukrainian boundaries. In a (most possibly) political case like this I guess a clise cooperation of Russian and Ukrainian officials would result in the most trustworthy report, but I'm afraid that's (very) naive thinking...

As one of those parties is most certainly directly or indirectly involved in the crime - no way.

[Ian W]

Just saw a live feed from Russian TV, they showed the tail section largely intact with a section of the leading edge and the rudder missing. Seems any impact would not have been near the tail section.

Medium/heavy surface to air missiles rarely 'hit' their target they are made to explode on proximity in a way that will destroy any target that is close. Often the warhead is surrounded by spun heavy grade wire that explodes outward to give maximum chance of destroying the target.

[thing]

I also think this is what happened, however if you are ATC(or FAA or whatever authority) you simply don't allow planes to fly over a warzone, it's stupid and sooner or later has to result with this... I fly SIA Heathrow-Changi a couple of times a year and the route takes you straight over the top of Afghansitan and has done since the Afghan business started. It's always been a bit of a bum clencher for me. It also flies very close to the Crimea. I'm off again in a couple of weeks, oh joy. There's a bloody great big NOTAM out in the FIR bit about avoiding Ukraine airspace as well.

[smoothound54]

airspace closures just announced! but too late for the poor unfortunates and their families. Where was the coordinated risk assessment for issues like hostilities?

Surely NM have a duty of care to arrange and coordinate such joint and then to manage flows accordingly?

[smoothound54]

looks like the NM is closing the airspace to civil A/C - at least that's what i think i heard on bbc. Shame they didn't trigger and coordinate a risk assessment at the start of the conflict - and subsequently

[Chronus]

The Huffingtonpost has some graphic images of the crash site.

Link below:

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 Crash Site Revealed In First Graphic Pictures (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/17/mh17-malaysia-ukraine-pic_n_5595821.html?1405617053&utm_hp_ref=uk#51_malaysia-airlines-to-hold-press-conference)

The disposition and fragmentation of the wreckage strongly suggests a high-altitude SAM system.

[CDN_ATC]

It supports a high altitude breakup of some kind, although SPECULATION is SAM take down... none of this is proven yet.

[despegue]

Normal within the Eurocontrol zone.
There are even Ukrainian controllers in Maastricht UAC from time to time as part of exchange programmes.

[Skittles]

I think that the facts will be very clearly established over the coming days.

For a start, that region has good radar coverage.

Secondly, it's under massively scrutiny from the rest of the world. I bet the US could tell you what each Russian separatist had alone for breakfast this morning, let alone if they were acquiring and firing Soviet surface-to-air missiles.

This is what the CIA lives for. They'll know all the Russian missile signature like the back of their hands. It wouldn't surprise me if they had good enough imagery to determine which finger the firer used to press the 'launch' button.

That of course is only relevant IF a missile were involved.

[NG1]

My guess is that intelligence in Russia as well as in the US have a pretty clear picture of what happened, as this area of the world should be under pretty close observation from "above".

[Easy Street]

I fly SIA Heathrow-Changi a couple of times a year and the route takes you straight over the top of Afghansitan and has done since the Afghan business started. It's always been a bit of a bum clencher for me.


thing, no need to clench at all. Insurgents in Afghanistan and Iraq (post-2003) have been armed with nothing more potent than shoulder-launched heat-seeking missiles. Even the most modern of these can't get anywhere near FL300. There is no risk to traffic overflying Afghanistan in the cruise (different story if you're landing though!). No-one, not even the CIA, Soviets or Iranians has been stupid enough to give anything vaguely potent to the mujahideen or the Taliban, because they know they would have absolutely no control over it. The same is true of most other 'insurgency'-type conflict areas; if the only threat is the shoulder-launched missile then overflight is nothing to be unduly worried about.


The Ukraine scenario is another matter entirely - 3 separate parties, all armed with high-performance radar-guided SAMs with capability up to and above FL400. Given that these SAMs have been used on multiple occasions in recent days, there should have been much greater circumspection from airlines about flying through the area.


Another point to consider is that a shoulder-launched missile operator has to see his target before firing. Even an irregular fighter would recognize the difference between a contrailing airliner way up high, and a military jet manoeuvering in the middle airspace, and they are not so stupid as to waste precious missiles on airliners, which in any case would be of negative strategic value to them. In contrast, the radar SAM operator aims his missile at a blip on his screen, and if he's not interrogating Mode 3, there would be no evident difference between an airliner cruising at FL330 and a lower-altitude target such as a ground attack aircraft or a military transport. It's this that makes radar SAM operation such a demanding and specialized discipline, and heck, even the Americans get it wrong from time to time - let alone irregular troops of unknown training.

[MarkD]

Eurocontrol statement: (excerpt)
According to our information, the aircraft was flying at Flight Level 330 (approximately 10,000 metres/33,000 feet) when it disappeared from the radar. This route had been closed by the Ukrainian authorities from ground to flight level 320 but was open at the level at which the aircraft was flying.

Since the crash, the Ukrainian authorities have informed EUROCONTROL of the closure of routes from the ground to unlimited in Eastern Ukraine (Dnipropetrovsk Flight Information Region). All flight plans that are filed using these routes are now being rejected by EUROCONTROL. The routes will remain closed until further notice.MH 17 - Ukraine | Eurocontrol (http://www.eurocontrol.int/news/mh-17-ukraine)

[TC_Ukraine]

airspace was closed up to fl240 weeks ago. lately it was closed up to Fl 320. now up to 660.

[SLFplatine]

Per WSJ on-line
U.S. intelligence confirms surface-to-air missile fired at Malaysian jet but are divided over origin.

[Pergatron]

I would hate to be the guy who pulled the trigger on that SAM. Shooting down a civilian airliner with Europeans/North Americans on board makes zero sense politically, and that applies to "Russian Separatists" as well as Putin. I predict the blame game will go back and forth with Russia accusing Ukraine.

[JamesGV]

*U.S. Intelligence Agencies Confirm Surface-to-Air Missile Fired at Malaysian Airliner: Officials

*Intelligence Detected Surface Missile Launch, Tracked Explosion of Plane, Official Says

*Intelligence Community Divided Over Whether Missile From Russia or E. Ukraine, Official Says.

WSJ Online.

Nothing further heard or confirmed as yet.

[glad rag]

Per WSJ on-line
U.S. intelligence confirms surface-to-air missile fired at Malaysian jet but are divided over origin.

Reference please.

[5000 metres]

Reuters and the Guardian linking to YouTube of alleged intercepted convos among rebels discussing the incident. In Russian.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V5E8kDo2n6g

[Richard J.]

I see the Flightradar24 site is unavailable. Any connection, I wonder?

Flightradar24 tweeted 4 hours ago: "Flightradar24.com (http://t.co/jgJyQj1S0s) is connecting more servers to handled big traffic boost. Sorry for disruption :("

[SMT Member]

According to our information, the aircraft was flying at Flight Level 330 (approximately 10,000 metres/33,000 feet) when it disappeared from the radar. This route had been closed by the Ukrainian authorities from ground to flight level 320 but was open at the level at which the aircraft was flying.

What kind of thinking will lead one to flight plan at FL330, when the airspace below is closed for damn good reasons? What risk assessment took place, and how could the outcome from such an assessment ever come to the conclusion 330 and above would be safe, when 320 and below are demonstrably not?

Given the fact at least 23 US citizens were killed as a direct result of a conscious decision to route over this area, a phalanx of exceedingly well versed corporate culpability lawyers will have a field day with this one, to the extent it might very well bankrupt Malaysian Airlines. And I, for one, honestly hope it does, for the single reason of giving every other airline such a scare, they might actually live up their mantra of 'safety first and above all else'. Those of us who've been in the industry long enough, knows just how hollow that rings when put up against the might of financial interests.

[garp]

Chilling post by TC Ukraine from just over a month ago....

14th Jun 2014, 22:06 #6 (http://www.pprune.org/8521715-post6.html) (permalink (http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/541720-pro-russian-rebels-have-downed-military-transport-plane.html#post8521715)) TC_Ukraine (http://www.pprune.org/members/286118-tc_ukraine)

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ukraine
Posts: 41


Ukrainian officials should close whole airspace over eastern part. now is closes up to fl260. Russian terrorists can easily hit passenger a/c.

[Capetonian]

WIKIPEDIA :


People on board by nationality[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#cite_note-18)
Nationality Number
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png Netherlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) 143
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Flag_of_Malaysia.svg/23px-Flag_of_Malaysia.svg.png Malaysia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia) 37
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b9/Flag_of_Australia.svg/23px-Flag_of_Australia.svg.png Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia) 27
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) 23
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Flag_of_Indonesia.svg/23px-Flag_of_Indonesia.svg.png Indonesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia) 12
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) 6
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France) 6
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) 4
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Flag_of_Belgium_%28civil%29.svg/23px-Flag_of_Belgium_%28civil%29.svg.png Belgium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium) 3
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cf/Flag_of_Canada.svg/23px-Flag_of_Canada.svg.png Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) 1
Unknown 35
Total 295

[Severe Clear]

The Buk-missile goes to at least 72,000'
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system#Operational_service
See Jane's

[angels]

Of course it's too early to attribute blame.

But surely the sighting by an AP journalist of a Buk SAM system in rebel hands in the area today, the announcement by Itar-Tass some days ago that the rebels had a Buk system, the claim by the rebels (since deleted) they had a Buk system and the claim by the rebels they had shot down an AN26 at the same time the MH flight was downed are pointers towards something.....?

Or not.....:hmm:

[Pontius Navigator]

The crash site supposedly is Grabovo, Donetsk Oblast, which would be about 30 KM northwest of the Russian Ukraine border. If so, forward momentum would suggest it was hit further west.

Once the aircraft loses power and aerodynamic properties it will fall like the proverbial. A gravity bomb would travel about 5 miles. In this case I would expect debris to travel only 3-4 miles.

[5 APUs captain]

2 5000:
On tape the rebels speak russian with east-ukrainian (local) accent. It seems the rebels expected to see the debris from military airplane, but what they've got - only civil things...

[Hotel Tango]

Fox News video. Someone on ground happened to have a video camera and happened to be pointed towards crash site (a portion of country side with nothing of other interest- they were not taking pictures of Mickey Mouse and accidently captured the crash) prior to impact and continued filming after impact

My interpretation is that the initial sighting was of debris with the naked eye and that due to the quality of the phone camera used did not show this debris very clearly. Only the subsequent explosion from the impact of the main section is more obviously seen.

[SAMPUBLIUS]

" Speaking in Detroit, Vice President Joe Biden said the plane had "been shot down, not an accident. Blown out of the sky."

"We see reports that there may have been American citizens on board," he added. "Obviously, that’s our first concern. We’re working every minute to try to confirm those reports as I speak."

Malaysia Airlines Plane Brought Down by Missile in Ukraine: US Official
Jul 17, 2014, 4:50 PM ET
By COLLEEN CURRY and LUIS MARTINEZ
Luis Martinez More from Luis »
Producer
Colleen Curry More from Colleen »
Colleen Curry
Reporter
via Good Morning America

[angels]

Here's a clip of the Antonov 26 being shot down on July 14.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bb2_1405337959

Anyone have any observations? Looks too high for the MANPADS we know they had, but I could easily be wrong. Also, again it looks like the plane was quite high (you can't see it initially, but there is flame on the way down).

Just thought I'd throw it into the mix since this is corroborated footage.

[Pontius Navigator]

On cleared overflight heights

240 had been considered safe. Increasing this to 320 - ie 30% - was probably a safe margin. Overlying at 330 was 'safe' as you don't add safety margins to safety margins. OK, they were wrong, but legally the airline was not to blame.

[roving]

The European head of Malaysia Airlines has announced nationalities of some of the passengers on board MH17, agencies report.

Among the other nationalities on board were 154 Dutch, 27 Australians, 23 Malaysians, 11 Indonesians, six Britons, four Germans, four Belgians, three from the Philippines and one Canadian.

Australia's Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade has established a hotline for anyone who believes a relative may have been on board: 1300 555 135

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Separatist leader Andrei Purgin told the news agency that he was certain that Ukrainian troops had shot the plane down but gave no explanation or proof for his statement. He said he did not know whether rebel forces owned Buk missile launchers but said even if they did, they had no fighters capable of operating them.

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 reportedly shot down near Ukraine-Russia border - World - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-reportedly-shot-down-near-ukraine-russia-border-1.2709881)

So, logically, if the rebels do have a BUK operating, it must be operated by Russians?

Also
A number of airlines said they will avoid the airspace of Eastern Ukraine following the incident.

Angela Mah, a spokeswoman for Air Canada, said the airline had been "proactively" avoiding that airspace for some time.

[Ian W]

Of course it's too early to attribute blame.

But surely the sighting by an AP journalist of a Buk SAM system in rebel hands in the area today, the announcement by Itar-Tass some days ago that the rebels had a Buk system, the claim by the rebels (since deleted) they had a Buk system and the claim by the rebels they had shot down an AN26 at the same time the MH flight was downed are pointers towards something.....?

It is the deletion of the gloating claim from the 'rebels' to have shot down a Ukrainian transport aircraft at the same time as the MH aircraft was shot down that is more telling. Anyone that wants more evidence is trying to avoid the facts.

[dikastes]

Malaysian jet 'shot down' over Ukraine - Europe - Al Jazeera English (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/07/report-malaysian-jet-crashes-near-ukraine-2014717151147473508.html)

[dikastes]

U.S. official: Malaysia Airlines plane shot down - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)

[west lakes]

Re closure of airspace
Who controls that airspace - The Ukraine so they are the only ones that could close it!!
Airlines can be advised by their governments to avoid that airspace but no other body has the power to close it!

[dikastes]

Did surface-to-air missile take down airliner? - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-crash-missile/index.html?hpt=hp_c2)

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

Does anyone else find it odd that someone was conveniently filming the plume of smoke, seemingly straight after the moment of impact? Wasn't as if the camera suddenly turned round to point to it, it already was, perhaps all the way down from FL330 though they haven't published that. Sad, bad day

[ATCNetwork]

Network Manager Eurocontrol confirms closure of Ukraine Airspace - "routes are now being rejected by Eurocontrol" (http://www.atc-network.com/atc-news/eurocontrol/network-manager-eurocontrol-confirms-closure-of-ukraine-airspace-routes-are-now-being-rejected-by-eurocontrol?view=draft&versionIndex=1)

EUROCONTROL has been informed that MH 17 en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur has crashed in the eastern part of Ukraine.

Our thoughts are with the families and friends of those on board.

According to our information, the aircraft was flying at Flight Level 330 (approximately 10,000 metres/33,000 feet) when it disappeared from the radar. This route had been closed by the Ukrainian authorities from ground to flight level 320 but was open at the level at which the aircraft was flying.

Since the crash, the Ukrainian authorities have informed EUROCONTROL of the closure of routes from the ground to unlimited in Eastern Ukraine (Dnipropetrovsk Flight Information Region). All flight plans that are filed using these routes are now being rejected by EUROCONTROL. The routes will remain closed until further notice.

The European Aviation Crisis Coordination Cell is being activated to coordinate the response to the impact of the airspace closure.

[evil]

I was just watching the UK news (I think ITV) when they showed passports of the customs. They all looked brand new and not like they'd just been in a crash only a few hours before?!

MH17 crash - fresh passports being shown as proof - YouTube (http://bit.ly/1mSFJsO)

[SLFplatine]

Per Stratfor (Geopolitical analysis and consulting -Austin TX)
The Security Service of Ukraine, has intercepts (unconfirmed) of 2 phone calls indicating a pro-Russian rebel group based in Chernukhino, Luhansk province shot down the plane. One is between Igor Bezler described by the Ukrainian report as a Russian military intelligence officer and leading commander of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic and someone the Security Service of Ukraine identifies as Vasili Geranin, a colonel in the main intelligence department of Russia's armed force at 4:40 p.m. local time, 20 minutes after the plane crashed.The second 40 minutes later between 2 militants codenamed "Major" and "Greek".

Transcript: (-The translation from Ukrainian to English was made by Stratfor and is unofficial.)
First call
Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo.
Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?
IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. It's smoking.
VG: How many minutes ago?
IB: About 30 minutes ago.

Second call 40 minutes later
"Major": These are Chernukhin folks show down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.
"Greek": Yes, Major.
"Major": The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first "200" (code word for dead person). We have found the first "200." A Civilian.
"Greek": Well, what do you have there?
"Major": In short, it was 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.
"Greek": Are many people there?
"Major": Holy sh-t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).
"Greek": What kind of aircraft?
"Major": I haven't ascertained this. I haven't been to the main sight. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies.
"Greek": Is there anything left of the weapon?
"Major": Absolutely nothing
"Greek": Are there documents?
"Major": Yes

[dikastes]

The Ukrainian government, condemning an act of "terrorism", released recordings it said were of Russian intelligence officers discussing the shooting down of a civilian airliner by rebels who may have mistaken it for a Ukrainian military plane.

[Ornis]

Malaysia Airlines needs radical change - CEO - World News | TVNZ (http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/malaysia-airlines-needs-radical-change-ceo-6012492) [June 26] Malaysia Airlines Chairman Mohamad Nor Yusof said the carrier is still "grappling with (repairing) confidence and reputation" after the plane's disappearance but that the company is not currently thinking of bankruptcy as part of a restructuring.

[atminimums]

If those recordings/transcripts are accurate and true, then they are incredibly incriminating and will certainly lead to trouble.

[dikastes]

Ukraine Air Force jet shot down by Russian plane

Ukraine Air Force jet shot down by Russian plane | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/17/ukraine-air-force-jet-shot-down-by-russian-plane/)

[cprior]

No, I don't find it odd that it was filmed. Because of an upcoming bicycle tour I am following the crisis on Twitter since the end of February. This is the first smartphone-documented conflict and from extremely funny to highly disturbing a lot was filmed and shared!

[roving]

The Guardian reports:

UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon has called for a full international investigation of the crash, AFP reports.

"There is clearly a need for a full, transparent and international investigation," Ban told reporters. He offered condolences to the victims' families.

Britain has called for a UN-led investigation and is seeking an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council to discuss the crisis in eastern Ukraine.

[oleczek]

One correction to translation

Line

Is there anything left of the weapon?

should be

Are there any weapons on board ?

[dikastes]

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/putin-could-do-little-to-avoid-u-s-sanctions/503659.html

Today's downing of MH17 coincides with sanctions imposed by the US

"U.S. President Barack Obama said that in order to avoid sanctions Russia should have halted the flow of weapons and fighters into Ukraine, supported a cease-fire, urged pro-Russian insurgents to release hostages, pursued internationally mediated talks and invited monitors to the Russia-Ukraine border".

[MitrePeak]

Friday, July 18, 04:15 AM SGT +0800 Statement by Prime Minister Najib Razak: Malaysian Airlines flight 17

Yesterday evening, I was informed of the terrible and deeply shocking news that a Malaysia Airlines jet went down in eastern Ukraine.

Malaysia Airlines has confirmed that the jet was Malaysia Airlines flight 17, which was on a scheduled flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

The flight departed Amsterdam at 12.15pm, local time. It was scheduled to arrive in Kuala Lumpur at 6.10 am, local, Malaysian time.

The aircraft was a Boeing 777-200.

The aircraft’s flight route was declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organisation.

And International Air Transportation Association has stated that the airspace the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions.

Malaysia Airlines has confirmed that the aircraft did not make a distress call.

The flight was carrying a total number of 295 people – comprising 280 passengers and 15 crew members.

Malaysia Airlines is in the process of notifying the next-of-kin of the passengers and crew. All possible care will be provided to the next-of-kin.

The Government of Malaysia is dispatching a special flight to Kiev, carrying a Special Malaysia Disaster Assistance and Rescue Team, as well as a medical team.

According to information provided by Kiev Air Traffic Control, the location of the plane’s emergency locator beacon is 48 degrees 7 minutes and 23 seconds North; and 38 degrees 31 minutes and 33 seconds East.


The Ukrainian authorities believe that the plane was shot down.

At this early stage, however, Malaysia is unable to verify the cause of this tragedy.

But we must – and we will – find out precisely what happened to this flight.

No stone can be left unturned.

If it transpires that the plane was indeed shot down, we insist that the perpetrators must swiftly be brought to justice.

Emergency operations centres have been established. In the last few hours, Malaysian officials have been in constant contact with their counterparts in Ukraine and elsewhere.

And I will be speaking to a number of world leaders over the coming hours.

I have had several conversations with the Prime Minister of the Netherlands.

I have also spoken to the President of Ukraine. He has pledged that there will be a full, thorough and independent investigation, and Malaysian officials will be invited to take part.

The Ukrainian president also confirmed that his government will negotiate with rebels in the east of the country, in order to establish a humanitarian corridor to the crash site.

Just now, I received a call from President Obama.

He and I both agreed that the investigation must not be hindered in anyway.

An international team must have full access to the crash site.

And no one should interfere with the area, or move any debris, including the black box.



This is a tragic day, in what has already been a tragic year, for Malaysia.

As we work to understand what happened, our thoughts and prayers are with the family and friends of those onboard the flight.

I cannot imagine what they must be going through at this painful time.

The flight’s passengers and crew came from many different countries.

But today, regardless of nationality, we are all united in grief.

ENDS

[Mud Skipper]

Ok so the story appears to be the "rebels" used a captured Ukrainian military, Russian made, BUK missile launcher and shot the aircraft down.

They question I have to any military people out there is how hard would it be to use said launcher. Could they have just read the manual so to speak or would formal training be required and who would have trained them?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The Ukranian rebels could have had a complete launch crew as defectors. However, see my post on the previous page, the rebels have denied having such a crew.
Chances of a random group of rebels reading the manual and operating it without Russian help? Zero.

[Standard Toaster]

Ok so the story appears to be the "rebels" used a captured Ukrainian military, Russian made, BUK missile launcher and shot the aircraft down.

They question I have to any military people out there is how hard would it be to use said launcher. Could they have just read the manual so to speak or would formal training be required and who would have trained them?

No chance.

Those SAM systems, especially the older ones (the Buk before the modernization program), are extremely difficult to operate. You need a full team of trained personnel to operate and maintain them, plus supply, command and control, radar etc...

It's not a point and shoot portable SAM like a Stinger or Strela, and even those require a fair amount of training.

Regards.

[Howard_500]

@ Mud Skipper

10 people with solid military training are needed to operate this kind of missile, according to an "undisclosed military expert working for Airbus Group" in this article (fr)

Le crash du Boeing de la Malaysia est «*un acte forcément volontaire » (http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2014/07/17/le-crash-du-boeing-de-la-malaysia-est-un-acte-forcement-volontaire_4459209_3214.html)

[AreOut]

BUK is an old system which is relatively easy to operate for someone who had operated similar system AND is provided instructions by someone else, rebels probably have such people and maybe even defectors from ukrainian army who operated BUK before

however identification of targets is something which requires experience and I'm not at all surprised with this seeing ukrainian authorities letting civilian aircrafts almost cross paths with military ones...it was bound to happen and they are first responsible for this, they certainly knew prorussians had BUK system(the whole Internet knew actually), drunk russian rebels just fired rocket on what they thought was a military aircraft

[Passenger 389]

@ SLFplatine (post # 186)

The version of that transcript I've seen posted contained several additional lines at the end:


“Greek”: Are there documents?

“Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson.

Militant: Regarding the plane shot down in the area of Snizhne-Torez. It’s a civilian one. Fell down near Grabove. There are lots of corpses of women and children. The Cossacks are out there looking at all this.

They say on TV it’s AN-26 transport plane, but they say it’s written Malaysia Airlines on the plane. What was it doing on Ukraine’s territory?

[Cossack commander] Nikolay Kozitsin: That means they were carrying spies. They shouldn’t be f…cking flying. There is a war going on.

SBU intercepts phone conversations of separatists admitting downing a civilian plane (FULL TRANSCRIPT; VIDEO) (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/separatists-admit-downing-a-civilian-plane-in-tapped-conversation-full-transcript-356545.html)


[Though in hindsight I question if they could have seen enough of the plane intact to know that it was "written Malaysia Airlines on the plane".

The reference to "They say on TV it's an AN-26 transport plane" also seems a bit suspicious. And would Russian separatists have referred to the location as "Ukraine's territory?" Perhaps that is why it was not included in the transcript version posted by SLFplatine.]

[lomapaseo]

It is premature to conclude that this plane was hit by a missle.

[xcitation]

Here is the link for the US FAA prohibiting flights into Ukraine FIR since April 23rd 2014.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ifim/us_restrictions/media/2014_0214_04-29_FINAL_FDC_NOTAM4-7667_UKRAINE_SFAR.pdf (NOTAM4-7667 UKRAINE SFAR)

[iamajoat]

A missile system of this type would require training. Fairly extensive training, more than reading a manual. The Crew of the aircraft would not have a clue so the recorders will be useless. Only the actual wreckage will provide any information. This is from my personal experience with missile systems.

[JaseAVV]

So is it possible to just use the SA-11 TELAR or do they also possess the Snow Drift search radar which is an entirely separate vehicle?

Is it possible to just point the launchers Fire Dome radar at a contrail and launch a missile?

[SAMPUBLIUS]

Malaysia plane crash in Ukraine | Reuters.com (http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/slideshow?articleId=USRTR3Z2GM#a=13)

Note slide # 13 and interesting hole . . .

[iamajoat]

No. You need to have a valid track on the target then get a lock. The missile does the rest.

[AirScotia]

It is premature to conclude that this plane was hit by a missle.

New York Times reporting that missile was detected by military satellite: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/world/europe/malaysian-airlines-plane-ukraine.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=Banner&module=span-ab-top-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

A Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 with 295 people aboard was shot down on Thursday by a surface-to-air missile, American officials have confirmed. The plane was traveling at about 30,000 feet, according to tracking information from a military spy satellite. The satellite was unable to detect where exactly the missile was fired.

Military and intelligence analysts are using mathematical formulas, high-speed computers and other sensors to try to pin down the missile’s point of origin. Other analysts will work with the Ukrainian authorities to recover and analyze pieces of the missile and the aircraft to help determine what kind of missile was fired, the officials said.

[weatherdude]

Not sure about this restriction in respect to geography - this means, that all US airlines were not allowed to fly over the area also above FL260 while all other airlines were only restricted below FL260 but ok higher up until today?

[Squawk_ident]

MAS 17 flight plan details:
Take-off 1031 EET 680 minutes ETA 2151
SUVOX 1047 FL253 , MOBSA 1053 FL310 , POVEL 1104 SUI 1120 BAREP 1125 KELOD 1126 OBOLA 1128 CZE 1130 BADUP 1134 MASIV 1136 INDIG 1136 UTOLU 1141 SUBAX FL325 1142 DERAM FL330 1142 LDZ 1144 SOMOX 1158 TOLPA 1203 OKROT 1221 CH 1228 SLV 1233 BEMBI 1235 EDIMI 1244 PEKIT 1254 TAGAN 1308 GANRA 1312 TAMAK 1324...

[con-pilot]

The infrared satellite data that showed the missile launch and the explosion that caused the 777 to crash, will also be able to pinpoint the actual launch site.

Why that data is not being released is anyone's guess, but I guess President Obama has his reasons.

[iamajoat]

Missiles of this type have what is called (at least by the US) a continuous rod warhead. This type of warhead is basically several layers of hardened steel rods wrapped in a special configuration. When the explosive charge goes off just imagine a giant buzz saw blade (multiples) flying through the air in close proximity to the target. When the rods expand to maximum diamater they break apart and turn into individual buzz saws. End result the target is shredded.

[papaquebec]

If black boxes are handed over to the Russians in theory (!!!) they should send them to Kiev, as the crash site is clearly within Ukrainian boundaries. In a (most possibly) political case like this I guess a close cooperation of Russian and Ukrainian officials would result in the most trustworthy report, but I'm afraid that's (very) naive thinking...

The only common-sense recipient of the FDR and CVR should, in this instance, be Boeing, the manufacturer.
After the debacle of the Malaysian loss earlier this year MH themselves cannot be trusted to disseminate the truth.
The Russians and Ukrainians (both sides) have axes to grind.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

'The aircraft was deliberately brought down' likely true - that's how Semi Active Radar SAMs work. I strongly suspect that the SAM operators thought it was a Ukranian military aircraft however. So the sentence 'The Malaysian airliner was deliberately brought down' is likely untrue.
As you suggest Capetonian, I expect there was very little reasoning done here. Shoot first, ask questions later.There are likely to be a lot more questions than they would have wished for this time however, and the SAM operators won't be the ones asking them.

[xcitation]

Is it lacking in common sense for commercial flights to venture into a hot war zone with active SAMs, recent taking downs. One can only imagine what announcement the captain/airline prepared for passengers if they observe an Antonov being taken down on the port side? Surely planning this contingency would ring some alarm bells. Loss of pressurization at FL330 -> descend into war zone.

[iamajoat]

This type of system has no ability to discriminate between civilian aircraft or military aircraft. It simply targets based on a radar contact that is designated as a target. When the FIRE button is pushed, it goes after the target that is locked. IFF and transponders do not enter into the picture other than determining what the target is.

[tu144]

The only common-sense recipient of the FDR and CVR should, in this instance, be Boeing, the manufacturer.
After the debacle of the Malaysian loss earlier this year MH themselves cannot be trusted to disseminate the truth.
The Russians and Ukrainians (both sides) have axes to grind. Ye and like the U.S. which is where Boeing is located doesn't

[hamster3null]

So is it possible to just use the SA-11 TELAR or do they also possess the Snow Drift search radar which is an entirely separate vehicle?

Is it possible to just point the launchers Fire Dome radar at a contrail and launch a missile?

I don't see why not. Snow Drift does not communicate with SA-11 directly, it sends reports to the command post which can manually assign targets to TELARs. They are fully self-sufficient and capable of autonomous operation.

[GlueBall]

Insurance claims may be challenged as "acts of war" have exclusions. :{

[parabellum]

There is separate 'War Cover' underwritten by what is locally known as the 'War Market', quite possibly increased premiums for aircraft choosing to overfly that route - all cover almost certainly suspended for over flights now.

[con-pilot]

Ye and like the U.S. which is where Boeing is located doesn't

Of all the places the "black boxes" should be sent to, Moscow is sure the hell not one of them. There is no logical, aviation reason for Moscow to have those recorders, only political.

[10Watt]

That`s the very worst thing that could happen now.

lt`s stealing evidence.

lt should go to an independent house.

By force of arms if necessary.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

A black box isn't going to be of as much use as access to the crash site. Bits of missile warhead buried in the skin panels are the smoking gun, and should clarify which missile hit it.

[Spooky 2]

I doubt that the black boxes have much value in what caused this accident. I suspect we will know who and where this was launched from within the next 72 hours. The big question is are what we going to do about it to make sure it does not happen again?

[Mike J Gale]

There was reported to be a suggestion of a three day ceasefire to allow investigations, from Alexander Borodai "PM" of the Donetsk rebels.

[rh200]

Its actually making sure there's no incriminating evidence.

Could one of the major players have deliberately done this, yes, is it likely, NO! To much potential blow back if it ever came out who was behind this.

Could one of the major players have accidentally done this, yes, is it likely, yes! Even well trained armed forces have done it.

So the question is what system was it, and what level of training and support was actually needed to operate the system. There is no doubt Russia has advisors in the area, and others actually running things, the question is, did they have them helping out with that particular system.

It is no secret that the rebels have been pushed back lately, and as a result material support increasing to them. The simple fact is, nobody on the Rebel or Russian side (the players) will give a sh!t about a couple of hundred people, its war.

What they will give a sh!t about, is the PR and potential fallout.

[taufupok]

Unconfirmed but read this :

UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office issues strong travel warning
Thu, 17 Jul 2014 23:21 +0000 GMT

The UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) advise against all travel to: Crimea, Donetsk oblast (region), Lugansk oblast (region) read more
Latest: Malaysia Airlines press conferences in Kuala Lumpur and Amsterdam
Thu, 17 Jul 2014 22:45 +0000 GMT

Many European tourists on their way to vacation in Malaysia and other East Asian countries were on the passenger list of MH 17. read more
Airbus sets new record at Farnborough
Thu, 17 Jul 2014 21:48 +0000 GMT

During the 2014 Farnborough Air Show, Airbus won US$75.3 billion worth of business for a total of 496 aircraft, making it by far the largest Farnborough show for Airbus – both in terms of dollar val...
Colombian tourism enjoying strong growth following surge in UK visitors
Thu, 17 Jul 2014 21:21 +0000 GMT

A significant rise in airlift from the UK is set to combine with a surge in hotel development to further fuel the dramatic rise in UK visitor numbers seen in recent years, according to the Colombian...
Russia's Transaero Airlines commits to 20 A330s
Thu, 17 Jul 2014 21:20 +0000 GMT

Transaero Airlines, Russia’s second largest airline, signed a Letter of Intent with Airbus for 20 A330 aircraft (8 A330ceo and 12 A330neo). read more
KLM : Statement Malaysia Airlines MH17
Thu, 17 Jul 2014 21:20 +0000 GMT

KLM (Royal Dutch Airlines) issued the following statement on Thursday evening: read more
UKRAINIAN MILLITARY ESCORTED B777 UNTIL 3 MINUTES BEFORE DISAPPEARING
Ukraine air traffic controller suggests Kiev military shot down passenger plane





Jul 17, 2014
ETN received information from an air traffic controller in Kiev on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and was working in the Ukraine. He was taken off duty as a civil air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately after a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine killing 295 passengers and crew on board.

The air traffic controller suggested in a private evaluation and basing it on military sources in Kiev, that the Ukrainian military was behind this shoot down. Radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down.

Military air traffic controllers in internal communication acknowledged the military was involved, and some military chatter said they did not know where the order to shoot down the plane originated from.

Obviously it happened after a series of errors, since the very same plane was escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared from radar.

Radar screen shots also show an unexplained change of course of the Malaysian Boeing. The change of course took the aircraft directly over the Eastern Ukraine conflict region.

Some tweets received suggest this may have been a secret military uprising against the current Ukrainian president under the direction of formerly-jailed Prime Minister Timoshenko.

According to other rumors, the black box for this crashed Malaysian Airlines flight was taken by Donetsk separatists. A spokesperson for the rebel group said this black box would be sent to the Interstate Aviation Committee headquartered in Moscow.

The First Deputy Prime Minister of the self-proclaimed People's Republic of Donetsk, Andrew Purgin, stated that the flight recorders of the crashed aircraft will be transferred to Moscow for examination.

Sources say the Rebel group leadership hopes this would confirm the Ukrainian military actually shot down this aircraft. This was reported by the news agency Interfax-Ukraine.

ETN statement: The information in this article is independently confirmed and based on the statement of one airline controller and other tweets received.

[SaturnV]

con pilot, the U. S. military spy satellite tracked the plane and the ascent phase of the missile, but not the launch. But then again, the U. S. typically doesn't reveal all of a satellite's capabilities.

[ph-sbe]

KLM (Royal Dutch Airlines) issued the following statement on Thursday evening: read more
UKRAINIAN MILLITARY ESCORTED B777 UNTIL 3 MINUTES BEFORE DISAPPEARING
Ukraine air traffic controller suggests Kiev military shot down passenger plane

KLM released no such statement. Their statements are visible here: Newsroom KLM (http://nieuws.klm.com/en/)

[con-pilot]

con pilot, the U. S. military spy satellite tracked the plane and the ascent phase of the missile, but not the launch. But then again, the U. S. typically doesn't reveal all of a satellite's capabilities.

It was an infrared satellite, it can determine the launch site from the initial heat signature from when the missile was launched. I thought that was common knowledge, but if the powers to be don't want to make that public, well I guess we'll not be told.

[Ngineer]

Of all the places the "black boxes" should be sent to, Moscow is sure the hell not one of them. There is no logical, aviation reason for Moscow to have those recorders, only political.

A very interesting point and I entirely agree. When a suspected military operation impacts a commercial flight the government involved should not be trusted at all, regardless of whether it is the USA, USSR or any other country for that matter.

I am sure there will be many opinions voiced loudly over this, more so than the TWA800 tragedy.

[cockpitvisit]

Of all the places the "black boxes" should be sent to, Moscow is sure the hell not one of them. There is no logical, aviation reason for Moscow to have those recorders, only political.

From the purely legal point of view, they actually have to be sent to Moscow. Ukraine is a member of the "International Aviation Committee (MAK)", which is responsible for accident investigations in most of ex-USSR member stages.

So a crash in the Ukraine (and it is still an accident at this point, since the missile is not 100% proven) would indeed be investigated by Moscow.

[porterhouse]

It says all the planes are flying around the armed conflict area why did this one (MH17) fly over it No, this plane flew exactly as other aircraft in the area - it bypassed the area singled out by Eurocontrol as 'dangereous' (and restricted), it was outside the restricted airspace. This plane flew exactly as everybody else in the area per the latest info. Also the "closed" areas in the general area only blocked altitudes to FL320, this plane flew higher. So this plane was 100% 'legal' in terms of its route.

[John Hill]

Try this one..

7fjpB5gw3iM

BTW, belay my post #233!

[Hangar_9]

To add a bit of perspective.


Has anybody considered the possibility a missile was NOT involved in the downing of this jet...?!

MH370 springs to mind. This time with a little bit of evidence to play with.

[benh57]

CNN says US Authorities say US 'assets in the region' detected the launch based on the radar lock-on from the ground. (not just the infrared heat signature)

[Psittacine]

And so with disregard to the target aircraft, radar paint, flight level, speed and/or heading or the standard overflight air routes, the SAM installation operator and his/her commander/adviser, with seemingly no IFF information, fired on the unidentified jet. It demonstrates an absence of any rules of engagement, comprehension of air route networks or target risk assessment and that this was either a premeditated act or just reckless action, both of which would constitute either a barbarous terrorist act or war crime regardless of the perpetrators.

[Ngineer]

A black box isn't going to be of as much use as access to the crash site. Bits of missile warhead buried in the skin panels are the smoking gun, and should clarify which missile hit it.

The biggest problem here is when the government stands to loose face with such an incident then you cannot trust them not to tamper with any of the evidence. It will be very interesting to see just how co-operative and transparent the international investigation process will be.

[Propduffer]

IFF was created for military usage and when civilians use it's function they do it 180 degrees opposite from the way a military would use it.

Since a military can't get the enemy to squawk an identifying code they have their 'friendly" A/C squawk a unique code.

Thus military air defense ignores all codes except the one they are looking for, and they wouldn't give a hoot if a target is squawking the same code used by airliners.

In today's case, with no air war in progress, there would have been no "friendly" code activated, so the SAM crew probably didn't even query the target they were engaging. There was no information for them to find in IFF codes.

[p2re]

Adding to the BUK operations discussion - just three days ago Sergey Kurginyan has promised (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR-Vxijh6RI) to the DNR leaders that "a group of specialists has just arrived that will be repairing the Buk launchers taken in Ukraininan military base". This was probably part of the meeting at 7 July (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAOnrGxpdgk) where they argued on details of arms deliveries to DNR.

[hamster3null]

From the purely legal point of view, they actually have to be sent to Moscow. Ukraine is a member of the "International Aviation Committee (MAK)", which is responsible for accident investigations in most of ex-USSR member stages.

So a crash in the Ukraine (and it is still an accident at this point, since the missile is not 100% proven) would indeed be investigated by Moscow.

Since 2012 Ukraine has its own accident investigation bureau and it no longer needs MAK to provide these services.

[1a sound asleep]

One of the reasons I am so adamant that planes should be well clear of war zones is that in the event of bad weather or an emergency there is room for planes to descend rapidly (ie example rapid depressurisation/loss of power) and not end up being shot down. Of course taking route deviations in war time costs extra fuel... but

[ManaAdaSystem]

Not overfly warzones?

Emirates, Flydubai and other airlines fly to Afghanistan and Iraq. Mogadishu is under consideration.
If you apply to Flydubai, it is clearly stated that you may be rostered to fly into warzones.

Money talks.

[Lantern10]

The prime suspect goes by the name Strelkov - or "shooter". Real name Igor Girkin, the former Russian intelligence officer has shot his own troops for insubordination. He may have just shot down a passenger plane with 298 people on board.
Read more: MH17 disaster: Is this the man who shot down the plane? (http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-disaster-is-this-the-man-who-shot-down-the-plane-20140718-zubvy.html#ixzz37n1Y1ABu)

[nitpicker330]

As previously stated it appears to be a missile that shot the 777 down so the CVR FDR would be useless anyway.....

All things normal.........then data stops..

[Sky Slug]

A black box isn't going to be of as much use as access to the crash site. Bits of missile warhead buried in the skin panels are the smoking gun, and should clarify which missile hit it. The KAL007 CVR and FDR was hidden in a safe of a Soviet official in the Kremlin until the Soviet Union broke up. Until it was handed over and analyzed, the West had no idea of what happened to the aircraft in terms of the breakup.

It turned out the cockpit crew was alive after the missile strike and was trying their best to control the aircraft. They also heard cabin announcements in the CVR which led them to believe that the aircraft was relatively intact after the missile strike. The passengers and crew suffered.

Unfortunately, the CVR and FDR are probably on the way to Moscow right now, probably never to be seen again for another generation.

God Bless General Patton. He had the right idea in 1945 after conquering western Nazi Germany, the Allies should've pushed on to Moscow.

[nomorecatering]

Something many in the aviation community are asking is why the hell were airlines flight planning departments routing their aircraft any where near a hot war zone, especially where an aircraft has been shot down in the 72 hrs before. It has been widely reported and shown on video that high powered SAM's were being brought into the area, as well as armed combat jets.

I imagine the relatives of the victims of the aircraft will be asking this question, leading into a lawsuit of biblical proportions.

[janeczku]

Russian ITAR-TASS informing about an An-26 being shot down by a missile.
????-????: ????????????? ???????? - ????????? ??????????????? ??? ????? ??????? ??-26 ?????????? ???

But it wasn't an An-26.

The report you mentioned is about another plane allegedly shot down on Monday in the Donetsk region: Contact lost with crew of An-26 military transport plane in Luhansk region (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/contact-lost-with-crew-of-an-26-military-transport-plane-in-luhansk-region-355935.html)


Be aware that the separatists claim to have shot down a number of Ukrainian military aircraft in the past weeks: Including at least seven Su-25 attack jets, three Su-24 attackers, one Su-27 fighter jet, an Il-76 military transport aircraft, and at least 17 Mi-8 and Mi-24 military helicopters.

[B772]

Carjockey.

I suspect the 'unverified' could cover a number of different things. Normally next of kin are notified before the name of the deceased are announced. You may remember some of the passenger names and nationalities on MH370 who were announced as missing and presumably deceased were not on the flight and still living.

[Richard W]

The CVR would shed light on whether there was a Ukrainian air force escort. I'm surprised that there should be one - unless the fighters were hiding behind it! A wild idea - could the SSR transponder have failed? If it were being escorted because the transponder had failed, that would explain an air force escort that peeled off before they came in range of a rebel air defence unit.

[Capetonian]

I'm puzzled as to why the nationality of 41 souls on board is stated as 'unverified'.Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) requires a nationality to be stated in an SSR message sent to the airline, but I don't think Malaysia is one of the 20 or so countries that requires it.
A number of the passengers were on their way to Australia, which is an APIS country, and their PNRs would have contained this, others would not.

[simon001]

An airline generally only requires that a passenger present one passport at check in.

That said, when a passenger checks in, the passport they present is used to check the entry requirement of the destination country. If the passport does not automatically qualify for entry, other checks are done which may require other passports.

For example, if you book a flight from the USA to Australia, when you book the flight you are often asked for passport information. Let's say you are a dual citizen, USA and Australia. You might book the flight with your Australian passport, as this is the passport that qualifies you for the entry requirements into Australia. At the gate in the USA, you would present your Australian passport. On the return flight back to the USA, often the gate agent needs the passport that matches the id used to make the booking. However, you will also need to present proof that you are eligible to enter the USA. This might be a visa in your passport or a passport of the country that you are entering. When you get to customs, they will want to see the passport of the destination country, regardless of what the check in agent asked to see.

I have three passports and have gone through this exercise countless times between countries. How it was handled by the airline was inconsistent and there were cases where my checked baggage (firearm importation) and the laws of the destination country seemed to make a difference.

My point is that having multiple passports is not uncommon, so where the airline has to classify each person by citizenship, they may have to do some homework. The public expects a clear answer right away and are unforgiving of corrections, so it might be better to say "unverified" and buy some time than get it wrong and change the story later.

As an aside, when I file a passenger manifest for flying people internationally (privately) out of the US with EAPIS, there is only one identity for passenger citizenship, so you have to choose whether it is the origin or destination country passport if the passenger has both.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

From Canberra - Australian Minister For Foreign Affairs, Julie Bishop, has announced a revised figure for the number of Australians on board, from the reported 27, to a revised number of 28.

Source - ABC Radio.

[Pontius Navigator]

Talk about identification, roe, controls, war ZONES, etc are all from a Western, civilized and humanitarian aspect. One has only to consider what has happened from the Balkans through to the Middle East to realise behavioural norms are different.

[simon001]

One would think that if a substantial number of United States citizens were on board, that there will be significant US involvement in the investigation.

However, at this point, there seems to be some speculation on how many US passengers there were:

1. Joe Biden said "There may have been American citizens on board"

Vice President Biden speaks at Cobo | News - Home (http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/vice-president-biden-speaks-at-cobo/27004644)

2. Other posters: "There is supposedly a large number of Americans dead. 23 is rumored." (A few posts back). I don't know from where this number originated.

3. The official Malaysian Airlines manifest report, yet incomplete, does not include any Americans, but 41 unverified:

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html

[fox niner]

Are there any BUK missiles in Syria or Iraq? Assets that ISIS can conveniently seize to repeat this horror?

[NSEU]

That means it has to have been attacked from ahead as chasing a high flying a/c going at 9 miles a minute would soon exhaust its fuel supplies.


Google is your friend (or Wiki is)

Buk missile system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system)

Depending on the model, these missiles can travel at Mach 2.5 to Mach 4. One video report says that it could hit the target in 40 seconds.

I don't think chasing is much of an issue.

[edmundronald]

A trip to Wikipedia will remind people of Siberia Airlines 1812 which Ukraine never took formal responsibility for - according to wikipedia legal proceedings are still ongoing.

Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812)

Maybe at this point Ukrainian airspace should be permanently closed.

[Passagiata]

I'm puzzled as to why the nationality of 41 souls on board is stated as 'unverified'.

Isn't the nationality of each passenger recorded on the passenger list as they check-in and then board the flight?

Can anyone clarify?

Well established and valuable diplomatic protocols, I would think.

[paulftw]

Where would the point of impact of this Buk missile be, would it hit an engine given the heat signature or impact the main body? Guessing MH17 was pretty full of fuel in the tanks so if it impacted the body it would surely have been a massive explosion/ disintegrated and hence no call made to ATC.

[highflyer40]

it is a radar guided missile so it wouldn't even see the heat given off by the engines, it would detonate when in proximity of the aircraft, so it wouldn't even have directly hit the plane., only the shrapnel from the missle

[Pontius Navigator]

I submit the issue of training is a red herring also.

Yes, a military operator will require extensive training, but that is required so the they can operate and maintain, assess performance, undertake proper c2 functions etc.

Given a reasonable competence (how many read computer manuals today?) and trial and error I suspect that they could switch on, get a lock and fire. Niceties such as roe, eccm, identification, speed of reaction and reload are all unnecessary.

[Stanley11]

Niceties such as roe, eccm, identification, speed of reaction and reload are all unnecessary.

Fully agree!

The main challenge of modern (responsible/ethical) military is threat identification and recognition. Most modern weapon systems are designed to be able to fire quickly, it is the SOPs, protocols that slow things down. Not that the rebels are that concerned about. I bet they use the good old, "anything from that direction is BAD".

[uksatcomuk]

The PlanePlotter server has data to the last contact.....to the second

As always , the information has been locked down and sent to the AAIB in raw format. They will forward it to the relevant authorities who are overseeing the incident.
This confirms the transponder was operational.

[Jagohu]

highflier40: flightradar24 is based on ADS-B information, it has nothing to do with the transponder, don't take it as a radar, because it is not...