Air 2000 Captain Sacked For Smoking

[harpy]

This topic seems to have disappeared. What happened to it?

[Capt PPRuNe]

Whoever starts a topic has the option to delete it and it would appear that this option was exercised.

[Seriph]

Amazing Alty Meter, you start a deliberately misleading thread and despite being assured by a number of people who do know what happened and that this judgement was reasonable you continue to dispute it. Perhaps you would care to explain why you started the thread in the first place, with what justification, what your hang up with Air 2000 is ,refused a job perhaps, they are very selective? Otherwise the juvenile tag rests with you I guess.

[greatorex]

Seems a bit odd to have deleted it though, most of these topics just die a natural death :confused: :confused: Still, as Danny said, it was your call and you made it.

Shame, because it was a good thread. :(

[Alty Meter]

Seriph
Thank you for correcting me. When I referred to a juvenile spoiling a good disussion with silly comments, I'd completely forgotten you. And, just in case you don't think the description 'juvenile' fits you, let's look at your most recent post.

"you start a deliberately misleading thread"
I said I'd heard the Captain had been fired for smoking and won his appeal at the IT, that I didn't know if it was true, and asked if anyone knew anything. I had been assured it was true, and I posted in good faith. It turned out to be 50% true. He was fired, but didn't win his appeal.
"despite being assured by a number of people who do know what happened and that this judgement was reasonable you continue to dispute it.
I still consider firing any pilot, let alone this long-serving captain who was described in very complimentary terms by a number of his colleagues, is unreasonable and far too harsh. A number of people expressed a similar view. A minority disagreed and thought if he break company rules he deserved to be fired. We are all entitled to our opinions.
"Perhaps you would care to explain why you started the thread in the first place, with what justification ..."
I have already done that.
"what your hang up with Air 2000 is"
I don't have a hang up with, or even about, Air 2000. I know nothing about the company except that they sacked a pilot for smoking. I learnt from some Air 2000 employees' contributions to the discussion that they treat their workforce badly. I don't know if that is true, but I'm prepared to believe it in view of what they did to this captain.
"refused a job perhaps, they are very selective?"
Oh dear, Seriph. :rolleyes: Do at least try to grow up.
No. I shall be retiring in four years aged 55 with a very generous pension. I've enjoyed my career, and still do as much as when I started as a young F/O. But, with the pension and no more school fees to pay, I won't need to work. I'll continue to fly light aircraft for pleasure, including my relatively new found pleasure - helicopters. It's so much fun, and opened up a whole new aspect of aviation.
"the juvenile tag rests with you I guess."
You think so? Hmmmmm! :rolleyes:

greatorex
Yes, it was a good thread for the most part. Perhaps, on reflection, I shouldn't have deleted it but I got fed up of the childish comments which didn't show any sign of abating.
I know that 'deleted' threads aren't actually deleted, but stay in the system. If the thread can be reopened by PPRuNe Admin, that's fine by me. I have no objection.

[Ella]

Firstly I am not, and have no personal knowledge of the Captain concerned.

However if I were he I would be sick and tired of the endless digest surrounding my life and recent events within it. Why not start a thread enquiring after his supermarket preferences or even the length of his manhood?

Let's leave the poor guy to rebuild his life and career without appearing like a bunch of jackals feasting on his problem.

:rolleyes:

[greatorex]

Ella:

If you remember, the thread was not so much feasting on his problem but dealing with a number of peripheral issues; i.e., was what happened right? What peoples views were on smoking aboard a/c etc. etc.

As aviators, it is unfortunate, but we do all learn by our collegues experiences, and sometimes, by their mistakes - the very reason that the AAIB, for example, makes public it's findings. And, along these lines it is important for the wider piloting community and especially, the pilots who are looking to join a particular company to have an idea of what company policy is on various issues and how these matters are handled.

This thread was about how a fellow pilot was treated by the company for which he worked. The company took the action that it saw fit and that action was upheld by the Industrial Tribunal as being the correct course of action. Now, whether we agreed with the the findings of the Tribunal is not the point, the point is; that many, many pilots will now be far more wary about lighting up on the flight deck in the future and who knows, that may even save some lives at some point in time.

As I said before, it was a good thread. I learnt from it (I'm not a smoker, but I will certainly warn my collegues of the potential consequences of lighting up - whether on the ground in the galley or even in flight - in the future) and so surely that is what Pprune is all about?

[rubik101]

Rules are rules. Not made to be broken. Break the rules, lose your job. Simple. He was sacked for breaking the rules, not for smoking. How long has Air 2000 had a no smoking in the cockpit rule, 15 yrs?
He knew the rules, broke them, was sacked, QED. End of story.
And I have no sympathy at all, whatever my views on smoking.

[JW411]

Smoking on the flight deck:

When I was a young aviator in the RAF, pretty well everyone smoked and smoking in the cockpit was considered "de rigueur" in Transport Command.

Even after the horrendous VARIG 707 crash near Orly (which someone referred to earlier - but which was caused by a passenger throwing a cigarette end into the waste bin in the forward lav - the crew were finally overcome with less than 5 miles to go on finals - there were no survivors) the only smoking restriction given to us was "no smoking below 2000 ft". (Some wag then asked "is that on QNH or QFE?").

Our passengers, of course, had much stricter restrictions imposed upon them than us experts "up the front".

I was in Bahrain one night when a major emergency was declared. I know you are going to find this difficult to believe but an inbound C-130 was getting close to "top of drop" after a very long duty (no CAP 371 in the military). The navigator decided to wake himself up with some 100% O2. That done, he then lit a cigarette without switching off the O2 and the mask caught fire!

The crew were just able to get the aircraft down but it took the fire department 3 hours to extinguish the mask!

Talking of which, how many of chaps out there are aware of the problems associated with breathing O2 when you have been near butter/oil/grease etc etc? I can remember being told by AA at DFW of an F/O who had a bit of butter left on his moustache when he put his O2 mask on. He singed his lungs to the extent that his flying career was ended.

My conclusion; although I have been known to light up on many occasions, don't do it in the cockpit!

I still think that the Air 2000 management could have taken a less drastic action.

[iflyhighinthesky]

Am I the only one here that is thinking straight?!

I don't know so much about this case,but from what I do know I cannot believe what I am reading in this forum.

The Captain smoked and as Rubik quite rightly said: "Rules are Rules". What is the difference between the captain smoking and the passengers?! Double standards.....

I am horrified that you are feeling sympathy. To me while he is at work, he can do without smoking. Fullstop. If he wants to smoke go to an airline that allows it, which is non-existant, for a reason!

:mad: :confused: :eek:

[virgin]

Seriph
If you hope to shoot someone down, it's not a clever idea to hand them the ammo to shoot you to bits. :D I can see why Alty thought there was no point in further discussion if your post is an example of the level it descended to.
I know this forum isn't called 'Rumours and News' any more, but it's not a crime to post something which turns out not to be 100% accurate.

iflyhigh
You'd have found the original thread very distressing and bad for your blood pressure. Isn't it rather arrogant to claim only your attitude to this incident can be the right one? Nobody's ever suggested the guy shouldn't have been disciplined. Some people, me included, think sacking was OTT and a written warning would have been appropriate. You obviously don't agree, but that doesn't mean the opposite point of view isn't a perfectly respectable one.

rubik
"Break the rules, lose your job. Simple. He was sacked for breaking the rules, not for smoking."
Do you truly mean that? Regardless of the rule broken, someone should lose their job? I know it's what you said, I'm just having trouble believing that you said it. :rolleyes:

[Ignition Override]

I'll bet that a group of airline attorneys (solicitors?) could find that all of us have somehow broken at least one rule, if they were motivated to dig deeply. Isn't that why we have so many more regs in our FOM manuals than was the case years ago, not including company "Policy or Flight Ops Bulletins" which appear at random and arbitrary times in our pilot lounge mailboxes? It must be much better for a company's "people culture" to simply fire someone than, after so much expense for training etc, give them a week off with no pay for that trip(s), assuming there were not a few previous warnings?

What an advantage, to have a photographic memory of all rules and regs.

Let he/she who has never broken a company/government rule (even for a few seconds) "cast the first stone", so to speak.

[Heliport]

Ignition Override
Totally agree with you, and others who've posted in similar vein.
Not even those on the original thread who defended the company's actions claimed the captain had been warned previously.
According to the various posts, some disgruntled steward reported him to management. :rolleyes:

[Capt PPRuNe]

I know that 'deleted' threads aren't actually deleted, but stay in the system. If the thread can be reopened by PPRuNe Admin, that's fine by me. I have no objection.

Unfortunately not true. Unless you request a copy of your thread be kept once you have deleted it it is gone forever.

[Alty Meter]

Thanks for explaining, Capt P.

I remember reading that threads weren't actually deleted when Moderators 'deleted' them, and assumed that applied to all threads.

[crossfeedclosed]

I hear that Ryanair are about to take action against some pilots who apparently have been smoking in the 800. Funny, it's allowed on their 200s!

[Taildragger]

I must admit that I have trouble beleiving that this Pilot was sacked for smoking. I presume this was inflight. However, the severity of the punishment seems to me to be way over the top, given the cost of the recruitment, training and Check out of a replacement. Surely a reprimand from the Chief Pilot would have been sufficient. Which brings me to the point....... was this a persistent offender who had been warned several times.??
Did he smoke after being requested not to by the F/O.?? What is the background.?? The bare bones of the topic..."Sacked for smoking" in itself seems to have been a relatively minor infraction of the rules which requires reprimand, not sacking.

[Mowgli]

I agree with taildragger, the punishment was too much - I would have thought a final warning more appropriate - the guy's lost his living for heaven's sake! I can't help a cynical side of me thinking that if the climate was better and they were short of pilots then a severe reprimand would have been issued. For those who would have him dismissed "don't let the door bang on your ##se on the way out" perhaps they'd like to consider that this captain may have given exemplary service to the company and may have already saved hundreds of lives through his professionalism? I don't know the details here, but I think a sacking in this instance is way OTT. A generous donation to cancer research would have been far more beneficial.

[Wino]

Iflyhigh

Are you aware that though smoking was band by regulation in the cabin, no such regulation was imposed on the cockpit. It is a company policy only, so the comparison to smoking in the cabin (Which is a crime) and smoking in the cockpit (Which is not a crime) is not a valid comparison.

Cheers
Wino

[B Sousa]

Hate to butt in to you folks who do the heavy iron. It is an interesting subject though, to a lowly helicopter driver. I quit smoking soon after I started flying in 70, just because I didnt have enough hands, and cigarettes were headed over $3 a carton....
Havent we changed....Now they are headed to $30 a carton and you can lose your job for smoking them....
Here in Amerika, they tax the hell out of cigarettes and subsidize the Tobacco Farmer, go figure on that one.
I know the punch line to this story is "He broke the Rules". Sort of like none of you has been off a 100' on an ILS in Sh*t weather. Well, no sense dragging this out, maybe the guy should have been taken out and pummeled by all those ash trays that still exist in most aircraft...
Smoking is addictive, maybe some help from the company to help with the addiction would be more reasonable.
My two cents.

[JustAnother777Driver]

Bert

As last some common sense! I just can’t believe that some of you think that breaking a minor rule should reasonably result in loosing your job. I would have though a letter/interview with no coffee would have been appropriate. If the management in Air-two-bob are really that up tight maybe demotion to FO … but sacking come on it just doesn’t make sense.

I am sorry now I missed the thread first time round … what’s the real story here :confused:

[holden]

Actually,this along with the SQ006 thread was the most important topic on pprune in the last month or so.It didnt dissect any of the guys personal life..it related to the pilot-employer relationship and that is surely something that interests us all.
What amazed me was not so much that he was smoking on the flight deck but that this airline(if thats the right word) chose to listen to a FA and act in such a manner.Spies-in-the-sky make for a very unhealthy atmosphere in commercial aviation.Its abhorrent and I dont like it.It makes everyone distrustful of each other and leads to divide and rule...who wins then?The employer.And some(like this one obviously) have no scruples.
Not a lot of smoking on the flight deck goes on stateside I would admit...but to think that you might have your career ruined over it on the HEARSAY OF SOMEBODY WHO OBVIOUSLY HAS AN AXE TO GRIND is disgraceful.Shame on this airline.Somebody confirm for me that its one of those budget/charter carriers that are springing up everywhere in the UK?I think I've heard of them.Shame because I have a lot of respect for British aviation,especially the RAF.

[JustAnother777Driver]

Thanks neutral99. A very sad story :(

I am glad I don't work for them.

[fiftyfour]

About 15 years ago a Dan Air captain received a fairer and more appropriate response from his fleet manager.
He was flying in the left hand seat of a HS 748. Passengers were in those days allowed to smoke when the signs were off, but this was on take-off with the signs on. As the aircraft rotated the angle of the curtain separating the cockpit from the cabin, allowed a passenger to see the captain smoking his cigar.
A complaint duly arrived at the company passenger services department a few days later.
The fleet manager, asked the captain to draft the reply, on behalf of the company.

[IcePack]

Um!
Is an Aircraft the place to go "cold turkey"?
I know when I gave up a 60 a day habit some 20 years ago, I felt awfull for weeks. I used a leave period to get over the worst cravings.
Wonder what the A.M.E. section think. Is this as a flight safety issue?
I'm sure the Captain in ? will not be allowing any smoking at any time by anyone NOW!

[126.9]

As a pilot, passenger and ex-cigarette smoker: if I were flying with him in whatever capacity, and he needed a fag; I'd sooner he had one right there and then, rather than spend the rest of the flight craving it!

As for the sacking: pathetic!

[Flap 5]

Smoking in an enclosed space with someone else who doesn't smoke has to be one of the most selfish things that a person can do, especially when you are in that enclosed space together for a long period of time. I have no sympathy for the smoker.

Whether the offender had been warned before is not clear. I would have thought a couple of warnings should have preceded a sacking.

Saying that this is a 'minor' rule is a matter of opinion. The effect of passive smoke on a non smoker could well make the non smoker feel ill or even intoxicate him to some extent.

I have found that in life, not just in the cockpit, smokers often have a cavalier attitude towards non smokers rights.

[virgin]

Flap5
If you read neutral's very helpful synopsis of the las thread, you will see the answer to what is unclear to you, and that he was reported by a STEWARD, and NOT by someone he was sharing a cockpit with.

[B Sousa]

"Smoking in an enclosed space with someone else who doesn't smoke has to be one of the most selfish things that a person can do, especially when you are in that enclosed space together for a long period of time. I have no sympathy for the smoker.

Whether the offender had been warned before is not clear. I would have thought a couple of warnings should have preceded a sacking.

Saying that this is a 'minor' rule is a matter of opinion. The effect of passive smoke on a non smoker could well make the non smoker feel ill or even intoxicate him to some extent.

I have found that in life, not just in the cockpit, smokers often have a cavalier attitude towards non smokers rights."

Flap 5
Replace the word smoking with farting and tell me your innocent..... "Excuse me, I had Cowboy beans before the flight, Im glad we are only here for 7 hours."
Smokers, for the most part , are more respectful than those of you who DEMAND respect.

"Be Happy In Your Work"

[Config]

Are there any laws or human rights issues regarding the right to have time made available to smoke?

I have heard that under Dutch law, all employers must designate an area in the work place for smoking. With a particular Dutch airline, the flight deck is the smoking area.

[seat 0A]

I`m glad it`s not so in my Dutch airline!
Imagine having 14 cc smoking in turn. Ouch!!

Dutch law has a lot of strange and very strange rulings, but I`m quite sure this isn`t one of them.

[flapsforty]

Config, you are both right and wrong.
All employers exept airlines. :(
The cockpit certainly is my coffee corner as soon as the lads are halfway human , but smoking lounge? :eek:
I wish..................... :D

[slj]

Config

No

[Jump Complete]

I find it hard to believe that a Captain, apparently well liked and very competent, would be sacked out of hand for this. If he'd offended the FO/ the CC / or anyone else with his 'selfishness' perhaps a appologie to them and a repremand from the Chief Pilot etc, but unless he was continuing to smoke having been warned several times, beeing sacked!??

[Carruthers]

How's about giving this one a rest people. It has been made very clear that there is a lot more to this than meets the eye. I understand Air 2000 is still one of the best outfits to work for, perhaps they expect their captains to set an example and not just over smoking.