Air 2000 Captain Sacked For Smoking
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Amazing Alty Meter, you start a deliberately misleading thread and despite being assured by a number of people who do know what happened and that this judgement was reasonable you continue to dispute it. Perhaps you would care to explain why you started the thread in the first place, with what justification, what your hang up with Air 2000 is ,refused a job perhaps, they are very selective? Otherwise the juvenile tag rests with you I guess.
Oops!
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Seems a bit odd to have deleted it though, most of these topics just die a natural death 
Still, as Danny said, it was your call and you made it.
Shame, because it was a good thread.
Still, as Danny said, it was your call and you made it.Shame, because it was a good thread.
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Seriph
Thank you for correcting me. When I referred to a juvenile spoiling a good disussion with silly comments, I'd completely forgotten you. And, just in case you don't think the description 'juvenile' fits you, let's look at your most recent post.
"you start a deliberately misleading thread"
I said I'd heard the Captain had been fired for smoking and won his appeal at the IT, that I didn't know if it was true, and asked if anyone knew anything. I had been assured it was true, and I posted in good faith. It turned out to be 50% true. He was fired, but didn't win his appeal.
"despite being assured by a number of people who do know what happened and that this judgement was reasonable you continue to dispute it.
I still consider firing any pilot, let alone this long-serving captain who was described in very complimentary terms by a number of his colleagues, is unreasonable and far too harsh. A number of people expressed a similar view. A minority disagreed and thought if he break company rules he deserved to be fired. We are all entitled to our opinions.
"Perhaps you would care to explain why you started the thread in the first place, with what justification ..."
I have already done that.
"what your hang up with Air 2000 is"
I don't have a hang up with, or even about, Air 2000. I know nothing about the company except that they sacked a pilot for smoking. I learnt from some Air 2000 employees' contributions to the discussion that they treat their workforce badly. I don't know if that is true, but I'm prepared to believe it in view of what they did to this captain.
"refused a job perhaps, they are very selective?"
Oh dear, Seriph.
Do at least try to grow up.
No. I shall be retiring in four years aged 55 with a very generous pension. I've enjoyed my career, and still do as much as when I started as a young F/O. But, with the pension and no more school fees to pay, I won't need to work. I'll continue to fly light aircraft for pleasure, including my relatively new found pleasure - helicopters. It's so much fun, and opened up a whole new aspect of aviation.
"the juvenile tag rests with you I guess."
You think so? Hmmmmm!
greatorex
Yes, it was a good thread for the most part. Perhaps, on reflection, I shouldn't have deleted it but I got fed up of the childish comments which didn't show any sign of abating.
I know that 'deleted' threads aren't actually deleted, but stay in the system. If the thread can be reopened by PPRuNe Admin, that's fine by me. I have no objection.
Thank you for correcting me. When I referred to a juvenile spoiling a good disussion with silly comments, I'd completely forgotten you. And, just in case you don't think the description 'juvenile' fits you, let's look at your most recent post.
"you start a deliberately misleading thread"
I said I'd heard the Captain had been fired for smoking and won his appeal at the IT, that I didn't know if it was true, and asked if anyone knew anything. I had been assured it was true, and I posted in good faith. It turned out to be 50% true. He was fired, but didn't win his appeal.
"despite being assured by a number of people who do know what happened and that this judgement was reasonable you continue to dispute it.
I still consider firing any pilot, let alone this long-serving captain who was described in very complimentary terms by a number of his colleagues, is unreasonable and far too harsh. A number of people expressed a similar view. A minority disagreed and thought if he break company rules he deserved to be fired. We are all entitled to our opinions.
"Perhaps you would care to explain why you started the thread in the first place, with what justification ..."
I have already done that.
"what your hang up with Air 2000 is"
I don't have a hang up with, or even about, Air 2000. I know nothing about the company except that they sacked a pilot for smoking. I learnt from some Air 2000 employees' contributions to the discussion that they treat their workforce badly. I don't know if that is true, but I'm prepared to believe it in view of what they did to this captain.
"refused a job perhaps, they are very selective?"
Oh dear, Seriph.
Do at least try to grow up. No. I shall be retiring in four years aged 55 with a very generous pension. I've enjoyed my career, and still do as much as when I started as a young F/O. But, with the pension and no more school fees to pay, I won't need to work. I'll continue to fly light aircraft for pleasure, including my relatively new found pleasure - helicopters. It's so much fun, and opened up a whole new aspect of aviation.
"the juvenile tag rests with you I guess."
You think so? Hmmmmm!
greatorex
Yes, it was a good thread for the most part. Perhaps, on reflection, I shouldn't have deleted it but I got fed up of the childish comments which didn't show any sign of abating.
I know that 'deleted' threads aren't actually deleted, but stay in the system. If the thread can be reopened by PPRuNe Admin, that's fine by me. I have no objection.
Last edited by Alty Meter; 20th May 2002 at 18:58.
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Firstly I am not, and have no personal knowledge of the Captain concerned.
However if I were he I would be sick and tired of the endless digest surrounding my life and recent events within it. Why not start a thread enquiring after his supermarket preferences or even the length of his manhood?
Let's leave the poor guy to rebuild his life and career without appearing like a bunch of jackals feasting on his problem.
However if I were he I would be sick and tired of the endless digest surrounding my life and recent events within it. Why not start a thread enquiring after his supermarket preferences or even the length of his manhood?
Let's leave the poor guy to rebuild his life and career without appearing like a bunch of jackals feasting on his problem.
Oops!
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Ella:
If you remember, the thread was not so much feasting on his problem but dealing with a number of peripheral issues; i.e., was what happened right? What peoples views were on smoking aboard a/c etc. etc.
As aviators, it is unfortunate, but we do all learn by our collegues experiences, and sometimes, by their mistakes - the very reason that the AAIB, for example, makes public it's findings. And, along these lines it is important for the wider piloting community and especially, the pilots who are looking to join a particular company to have an idea of what company policy is on various issues and how these matters are handled.
This thread was about how a fellow pilot was treated by the company for which he worked. The company took the action that it saw fit and that action was upheld by the Industrial Tribunal as being the correct course of action. Now, whether we agreed with the the findings of the Tribunal is not the point, the point is; that many, many pilots will now be far more wary about lighting up on the flight deck in the future and who knows, that may even save some lives at some point in time.
As I said before, it was a good thread. I learnt from it (I'm not a smoker, but I will certainly warn my collegues of the potential consequences of lighting up - whether on the ground in the galley or even in flight - in the future) and so surely that is what Pprune is all about?
If you remember, the thread was not so much feasting on his problem but dealing with a number of peripheral issues; i.e., was what happened right? What peoples views were on smoking aboard a/c etc. etc.
As aviators, it is unfortunate, but we do all learn by our collegues experiences, and sometimes, by their mistakes - the very reason that the AAIB, for example, makes public it's findings. And, along these lines it is important for the wider piloting community and especially, the pilots who are looking to join a particular company to have an idea of what company policy is on various issues and how these matters are handled.
This thread was about how a fellow pilot was treated by the company for which he worked. The company took the action that it saw fit and that action was upheld by the Industrial Tribunal as being the correct course of action. Now, whether we agreed with the the findings of the Tribunal is not the point, the point is; that many, many pilots will now be far more wary about lighting up on the flight deck in the future and who knows, that may even save some lives at some point in time.
As I said before, it was a good thread. I learnt from it (I'm not a smoker, but I will certainly warn my collegues of the potential consequences of lighting up - whether on the ground in the galley or even in flight - in the future) and so surely that is what Pprune is all about?
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Made to be broken?
Rules are rules. Not made to be broken. Break the rules, lose your job. Simple. He was sacked for breaking the rules, not for smoking. How long has Air 2000 had a no smoking in the cockpit rule, 15 yrs?
He knew the rules, broke them, was sacked, QED. End of story.
And I have no sympathy at all, whatever my views on smoking.
He knew the rules, broke them, was sacked, QED. End of story.
And I have no sympathy at all, whatever my views on smoking.
Smoking on the flight deck:
When I was a young aviator in the RAF, pretty well everyone smoked and smoking in the cockpit was considered "de rigueur" in Transport Command.
Even after the horrendous VARIG 707 crash near Orly (which someone referred to earlier - but which was caused by a passenger throwing a cigarette end into the waste bin in the forward lav - the crew were finally overcome with less than 5 miles to go on finals - there were no survivors) the only smoking restriction given to us was "no smoking below 2000 ft". (Some wag then asked "is that on QNH or QFE?").
Our passengers, of course, had much stricter restrictions imposed upon them than us experts "up the front".
I was in Bahrain one night when a major emergency was declared. I know you are going to find this difficult to believe but an inbound C-130 was getting close to "top of drop" after a very long duty (no CAP 371 in the military). The navigator decided to wake himself up with some 100% O2. That done, he then lit a cigarette without switching off the O2 and the mask caught fire!
The crew were just able to get the aircraft down but it took the fire department 3 hours to extinguish the mask!
Talking of which, how many of chaps out there are aware of the problems associated with breathing O2 when you have been near butter/oil/grease etc etc? I can remember being told by AA at DFW of an F/O who had a bit of butter left on his moustache when he put his O2 mask on. He singed his lungs to the extent that his flying career was ended.
My conclusion; although I have been known to light up on many occasions, don't do it in the cockpit!
I still think that the Air 2000 management could have taken a less drastic action.
When I was a young aviator in the RAF, pretty well everyone smoked and smoking in the cockpit was considered "de rigueur" in Transport Command.
Even after the horrendous VARIG 707 crash near Orly (which someone referred to earlier - but which was caused by a passenger throwing a cigarette end into the waste bin in the forward lav - the crew were finally overcome with less than 5 miles to go on finals - there were no survivors) the only smoking restriction given to us was "no smoking below 2000 ft". (Some wag then asked "is that on QNH or QFE?").
Our passengers, of course, had much stricter restrictions imposed upon them than us experts "up the front".
I was in Bahrain one night when a major emergency was declared. I know you are going to find this difficult to believe but an inbound C-130 was getting close to "top of drop" after a very long duty (no CAP 371 in the military). The navigator decided to wake himself up with some 100% O2. That done, he then lit a cigarette without switching off the O2 and the mask caught fire!
The crew were just able to get the aircraft down but it took the fire department 3 hours to extinguish the mask!
Talking of which, how many of chaps out there are aware of the problems associated with breathing O2 when you have been near butter/oil/grease etc etc? I can remember being told by AA at DFW of an F/O who had a bit of butter left on his moustache when he put his O2 mask on. He singed his lungs to the extent that his flying career was ended.
My conclusion; although I have been known to light up on many occasions, don't do it in the cockpit!
I still think that the Air 2000 management could have taken a less drastic action.
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Am I the only one here that is thinking straight?!
I don't know so much about this case,but from what I do know I cannot believe what I am reading in this forum.
The Captain smoked and as Rubik quite rightly said: "Rules are Rules". What is the difference between the captain smoking and the passengers?! Double standards.....
I am horrified that you are feeling sympathy. To me while he is at work, he can do without smoking. Fullstop. If he wants to smoke go to an airline that allows it, which is non-existant, for a reason!
I don't know so much about this case,but from what I do know I cannot believe what I am reading in this forum.
The Captain smoked and as Rubik quite rightly said: "Rules are Rules". What is the difference between the captain smoking and the passengers?! Double standards.....
I am horrified that you are feeling sympathy. To me while he is at work, he can do without smoking. Fullstop. If he wants to smoke go to an airline that allows it, which is non-existant, for a reason!
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Seriph
If you hope to shoot someone down, it's not a clever idea to hand them the ammo to shoot you to bits.
I can see why Alty thought there was no point in further discussion if your post is an example of the level it descended to.
I know this forum isn't called 'Rumours and News' any more, but it's not a crime to post something which turns out not to be 100% accurate.
iflyhigh
You'd have found the original thread very distressing and bad for your blood pressure. Isn't it rather arrogant to claim only your attitude to this incident can be the right one? Nobody's ever suggested the guy shouldn't have been disciplined. Some people, me included, think sacking was OTT and a written warning would have been appropriate. You obviously don't agree, but that doesn't mean the opposite point of view isn't a perfectly respectable one.
rubik
"Break the rules, lose your job. Simple. He was sacked for breaking the rules, not for smoking."
Do you truly mean that? Regardless of the rule broken, someone should lose their job? I know it's what you said, I'm just having trouble believing that you said it.
If you hope to shoot someone down, it's not a clever idea to hand them the ammo to shoot you to bits.
I can see why Alty thought there was no point in further discussion if your post is an example of the level it descended to.I know this forum isn't called 'Rumours and News' any more, but it's not a crime to post something which turns out not to be 100% accurate.
iflyhigh
You'd have found the original thread very distressing and bad for your blood pressure. Isn't it rather arrogant to claim only your attitude to this incident can be the right one? Nobody's ever suggested the guy shouldn't have been disciplined. Some people, me included, think sacking was OTT and a written warning would have been appropriate. You obviously don't agree, but that doesn't mean the opposite point of view isn't a perfectly respectable one.
rubik
"Break the rules, lose your job. Simple. He was sacked for breaking the rules, not for smoking."
Do you truly mean that? Regardless of the rule broken, someone should lose their job? I know it's what you said, I'm just having trouble believing that you said it.
I'll bet that a group of airline attorneys (solicitors?) could find that all of us have somehow broken at least one rule, if they were motivated to dig deeply. Isn't that why we have so many more regs in our FOM manuals than was the case years ago, not including company "Policy or Flight Ops Bulletins" which appear at random and arbitrary times in our pilot lounge mailboxes? It must be much better for a company's "people culture" to simply fire someone than, after so much expense for training etc, give them a week off with no pay for that trip(s), assuming there were not a few previous warnings?
What an advantage, to have a photographic memory of all rules and regs.
Let he/she who has never broken a company/government rule (even for a few seconds) "cast the first stone", so to speak.
What an advantage, to have a photographic memory of all rules and regs.
Let he/she who has never broken a company/government rule (even for a few seconds) "cast the first stone", so to speak.
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Ignition Override
Totally agree with you, and others who've posted in similar vein.
Not even those on the original thread who defended the company's actions claimed the captain had been warned previously.
According to the various posts, some disgruntled steward reported him to management.
Totally agree with you, and others who've posted in similar vein.
Not even those on the original thread who defended the company's actions claimed the captain had been warned previously.
According to the various posts, some disgruntled steward reported him to management.
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
I know that 'deleted' threads aren't actually deleted, but stay in the system. If the thread can be reopened by PPRuNe Admin, that's fine by me. I have no objection.
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I must admit that I have trouble beleiving that this Pilot was sacked for smoking. I presume this was inflight. However, the severity of the punishment seems to me to be way over the top, given the cost of the recruitment, training and Check out of a replacement. Surely a reprimand from the Chief Pilot would have been sufficient. Which brings me to the point....... was this a persistent offender who had been warned several times.??
Did he smoke after being requested not to by the F/O.?? What is the background.?? The bare bones of the topic..."Sacked for smoking" in itself seems to have been a relatively minor infraction of the rules which requires reprimand, not sacking.
Did he smoke after being requested not to by the F/O.?? What is the background.?? The bare bones of the topic..."Sacked for smoking" in itself seems to have been a relatively minor infraction of the rules which requires reprimand, not sacking.
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I agree with taildragger, the punishment was too much - I would have thought a final warning more appropriate - the guy's lost his living for heaven's sake! I can't help a cynical side of me thinking that if the climate was better and they were short of pilots then a severe reprimand would have been issued. For those who would have him dismissed "don't let the door bang on your ##se on the way out" perhaps they'd like to consider that this captain may have given exemplary service to the company and may have already saved hundreds of lives through his professionalism? I don't know the details here, but I think a sacking in this instance is way OTT. A generous donation to cancer research would have been far more beneficial.
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Iflyhigh
Are you aware that though smoking was band by regulation in the cabin, no such regulation was imposed on the cockpit. It is a company policy only, so the comparison to smoking in the cabin (Which is a crime) and smoking in the cockpit (Which is not a crime) is not a valid comparison.
Cheers
Wino
Are you aware that though smoking was band by regulation in the cabin, no such regulation was imposed on the cockpit. It is a company policy only, so the comparison to smoking in the cabin (Which is a crime) and smoking in the cockpit (Which is not a crime) is not a valid comparison.
Cheers
Wino
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Hate to butt in to you folks who do the heavy iron. It is an interesting subject though, to a lowly helicopter driver. I quit smoking soon after I started flying in 70, just because I didnt have enough hands, and cigarettes were headed over $3 a carton....
Havent we changed....Now they are headed to $30 a carton and you can lose your job for smoking them....
Here in Amerika, they tax the hell out of cigarettes and subsidize the Tobacco Farmer, go figure on that one.
I know the punch line to this story is "He broke the Rules". Sort of like none of you has been off a 100' on an ILS in Sh*t weather. Well, no sense dragging this out, maybe the guy should have been taken out and pummeled by all those ash trays that still exist in most aircraft...
Smoking is addictive, maybe some help from the company to help with the addiction would be more reasonable.
My two cents.
Havent we changed....Now they are headed to $30 a carton and you can lose your job for smoking them....
Here in Amerika, they tax the hell out of cigarettes and subsidize the Tobacco Farmer, go figure on that one.
I know the punch line to this story is "He broke the Rules". Sort of like none of you has been off a 100' on an ILS in Sh*t weather. Well, no sense dragging this out, maybe the guy should have been taken out and pummeled by all those ash trays that still exist in most aircraft...
Smoking is addictive, maybe some help from the company to help with the addiction would be more reasonable.
My two cents.