Can you buy a 4seater tourer and aerobatic aircraft?

[PPLvirgin]

Hi all,

i am looking to gain an understnading from experienced people on what is the best aircraft that gives you a blend of aerobatics and a good sporty tourer.
is there such a thing?
if i were to go for a decent tourer but primarily a gd aerobatic aircraft, what would be the recomendation?

if i were to want the ability to do general aerobatics and a decent tourer, trips to europe etc... which would one suggest?

any comeents would be helpful.

many thanks

Tris

[Tay Cough]

You'd struggle to find one that satisfactorily does both. Yak-18T is probably the best candidate.

You'd be better off buying the one you'd use the most and renting the other as required.

[PPLvirgin]

cheers for reply Tay -

just checked it out, i saw it the other night as well when searching. Not sure there are many fairly new ones around that are low on flyingtime though?

[Big Pistons Forever]

E33C Bonanza is a very capable tourer and good for sportsman level aero's. Not many made though.

Tilting more to the aero's side, the SF 260 is pretty cool machine. Only 3 seats, low useful load and a bit range limited as well as big bucks though .

Yak 18T has 4 seats but and is cheap, but slow, thirsty, very short range, and not certified.

[thing]

Robin DR400? I think it's stressed to +5, although don't quote me.

[4forward8back]

Fuji Subaru FA-200. I agree with Tay Cough's suggestion though.

[PPLvirgin]

Thanks all,

some great examples - are you all similar pilots or do you all do a lot of general ppl stuff?

[djpil]

Two others are the Beech Musketeer Sport and Beagle Pup however I agree with Tay Cough's advice as well.
Friend has a Yak 18 but uses it for touring only as he has a Pitts plus Giles. Greedy.
Another friend has an aerobatic Bonanza, I don't agree about it being suitable for Sportsman level, much less in my opinion.
Some Fujis around but I wouldn't like to own one with the difficulty in sourcing airframe parts - my mechanic told me canopy rails was one item that can be critical - he bought a heap of fuselages.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Another friend has an aerobatic Bonanza, I don't agree about it being suitable for Sportsman level, much less in my opinion.


You are right I was thinking of the Primary level maneuvers.

The Aerobatic variants of the Beechcraft Sport/Sundowner are even less capable IMO.

[sapperkenno]

Ruschmeyer R-90 I think they're called. Fell in love with them when I saw one in Flyer magazine as a youngster. Think they only made 6. Great looking aircraft with a stick, full IFR panel, retractable gear etc. I don't know if any are still in existence.

[Piper.Classique]

The Robin Dr 400 is an excellent tourer, especially the 180 hp. But definitely not aerobatic. I don't think you will find anything that does both things well, two very different missions.

[djpil]

.... are you all similar pilots ....no-one else like me in the world.

I currently have a Super Decathlon which works to pay its way and a Pitts S-2A. Been a long time since I felt the need to hire a four-seater. Especially since many four-seaters become two on a trip with luggage. The Super D is a good tourer but if I'm going anywhere apart from an aerobatic contest I buy a ticket on an airline.

[fujii]

djpil

A friend rebuilt a Fuji a few years ago. He needed canopy rails which weren't available so he had new ones manufactured. It was cheaper to do a production run so he has a number of spares.

[djpil]

Thanks fujii, I will pass the info on. The Fuji goes up in my ratings then. A nice aeroplane - Sportsman aerobatics too. A 180 hp C/S variant here had inverted oil systems. Lovely flick rolls.

[BackPacker]

The only four-seater aerobatic aircraft I know of is the Fuji FA-200. But I think it's limited to 2 POB when flying aerobatics. And it's got a yoke instead of a stick.:sad:

All other combination tourer/basic aerobatics aircraft that I know of are two-seaters. For instance the Robin/Alpha R2160, Decathlon, General Avia F.22, Cessna 152 Aerobat (ahem - "Anemic" would be a more suitable term).

Further up the aerobatics scale, but down the touring scale, is for instance the Cap-10. And then you get the proper aerobatics aircraft, which are increasingly less suitable for leisure touring. Pitts, Extra-300 and so forth.

[Tay Cough]

deqo50gGTBo

Here you go. Apparently with a grand piano in the back. :rolleyes:



.... and it is a true four-seater (including fuel and bags!!), despite the caption (the Yak-18A is a two seater).

Range is up to about 1000nm with the big fuel tanks (optional extra) and I suspect the one in the video has the 400hp engine rather than the standard 360hp. It should be aerobatic enough for you, although they do come at a price. :E

The Hungarian register is no longer the advantage it used to be but there are a handful on UK C of A (yes C of A, you read that correctly) so if you can get your hands on one of those, you'll be laughing. :ok:

Old Pilot Mag article HERE (http://www.russianaeros.com/Pilot%20Article%20pdf/Pilot%20Mag%20Reveiw%20of%20Yak-18T.pdf).

[Mark 1]

Although quite rare, the Bölkow Bo 207 is the only other one I can think of.

Lovely wooden aeroplane, developed from the Klemm 107 but it would really need hangarage.

[Silvaire1]

Apparently you need a Bölkow 207 'T' model for it to be capable of aerobatics. Good post though, because I didn't think any of the 207s were aerobatic capable.

http://www.caa.co.uk/aandocs/22196/22196000000.pdf

[It flies]

JyYjtTKAH-c

Piaggio P.149 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_P.149)

And it has a stick instead of a yoke. :ok:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/Piaggio_P149_Cockpit.jpg/640px-Piaggio_P149_Cockpit.jpg

[W.R.A.I.T.H]

Saab Safir would be an excellent candidate if you can get one; the extant airworthy examples that I am familiar with are used for just that, plus aero lessons. The later versions seated four and there are a good few flying around where I am from.

[Marchettiman]

Early models of the SF260 are certified with 4 seats, albeit with a 250lbs weight limitation on the rear seats. But 170kts cruise, +6g -3g and fighter style handling make up for its limitations. An ideal tourer for a family with kids, and anyway they don't want to come with you once they grow too heavy for the aeroplane!

[PPLvirgin]

Tay, thats a great post and vid - very graceful.

[A and C]

Anyone who has seen what holds the wings onto a DR400 would not aerobat it !!! It is a very good touring aircraft bit not for turning upside down.

As far as I can see the SF260 is the nearest thing to the required spec.

[Tay Cough]

Anyone who has seen what holds the wings onto a Yak-18T would probably build a bridge out of it. :}

[PPLvirgin]

it seems the SF-260 is the most ideal. Sadly they are also like rocking horse **** lol.

also i reckon I would struggle to operate out of netherthiroe(EGNF). but east mids is only 25mins away.

At 150k euro's i was thinkng of buying buy i would give 3 shares ouri reckon to get 3 top end, experienced flyers, as they would need to have money. they would then be able to help me going forward on experience etc....

still not decided.......not an easy decision!!!!:ugh:

[HappyJack260]

SF-260 is a great machine - fast, and slippery, so not so good for aerobatic competition, but tremendous fun for flghter flying or gentleman's leisurely positive G only manoeuvres.

It has a high wing loading too, so not so good for short fields (you fly it on like a jet), but trailing link gear can cope with rough surfaces.

I'd have one in a shot, but cheap, they're not.

[foxmoth]

As mentioned, SF260, Yak, Fuji, Bonanza, Pup150. I think all are aeros 2 up and touring for four - some more capable than others in both spheres. Personally I would go for an RV7 or 8, good for aeros and touring if you can keep it down to two up, that is fine for most people most of the time and then hire when you need the extra seats.

[shortstripper]

Auster J5 Aiglet?

Probably on a permit now as well ... If you can find one?

SS

[foxmoth]

Auster J5 Aiglet?

Well, yes it fits the requirement - but have you tried aeros in one? Probably one of the few aerobatic aircraft that is worse than a C150/2 Aerobat!:}

[k12479]

4 seats & aerobatic? :hmm:
MS.760

[BeechNut]

I own a 1979 aerobatic Beech Sundowner (180 hp).

Loops, rolls, split-S, Immelmann, spins, basic stuff. No inverted oil system so no sustained inverted flight. Fairly quick on the ailerons; +6/-3.8G; needs to be lightly loaded for aerobatics, front seats only. It has quick-jettison doors (though I've disabled that feature as I no longer do any aerobatics with it).

Not very many of them made. I've done a few loops with it but not much else, didn't buy it with that purpose in mind.

Hence the username :}

[browntrout]

Hello,

Long ago I flew but only had about 150 hours of flying time and only 3 hours of aerobatic time, and gave it up when I went to grad school, under the premise that I would buy a plane and keep flying. Well, life and women took me another direction, so the fact is now I need to go through all my training again from the start. I still want to own my own plane though instead of renting, and am finally planning on doing so this year. I want a plane to train in and tour in with up to 4 friends and for business trips. But, I also want to do aerobatics when I want to go up alone and have some fun. I originally flew out of MN airports in an A150 and 152s. I see there is a lot of negative comments about the A150/152s here (which is also only a 2 seat plane), from people who know FAR more than me about this subject. I want a fairly inexpensive plane for my first trainer/plane, maybe in the $20,000.00 to $40,000.00 range ideally, if possible. It seems to me that there are potential issues with such models as the Fuji (which sounds great actually) and the Saad Safir 91D, (maybe the Yak also, but no one mentioned that) with acquisition of parts... So, that leaves me with the Yak-18 (maybe), Robin R-2160/2112, Beech B-19/19A Sports II Musketeer/C23 Sundowner, etc... However, are there also issues with bringing aircraft in from foreign countries, as the Saabs are all out of the country and so are the Robins and most Fujis? Thanks for any comments. Realistically, after having become a competent and safe pilot, in the future, I will own a Pitts S-2B as my aerobatic plane, and what ever plane is recommended here most strongly as my touring plane. Thank you, sincerely, Greg.

[Pilot DAR]

Welcome Browntrout, Your choices for 4 place aerobatic may be limited. As other pilots I know, it might be more to your liking, and cost effective, to own a modest touring plane, and an aerobatic type, even single seater, for aerobatic fun. One plane which does both will be a compromise....

[LowNSlow]

browntrout if you could reduce your needs to a 2 seater then the locally produced Victa Airtourer could work for you:


Home (http://airtourer.asn.au/airtourer/)

There are a few for sale in Oz.

[Ebbie 2003]

Not all Sundowners are aerobatic - easy to spot though, they have strakes on the side of the cowl and an extension to the vertical fin below the tail.

A Sundowner is a capable tourer with the ability to do loop, rolls etc. for fun but would not do well in even a beginner competition I think.

I was looking at buying one six years ago - in the end I went with an Archer II and no aeros - mainly due to availability of parts.

[RAT 5]

Which is the more important? Which would be used more? If it's the tourer then buy the best for that and rent the aero, or join an aero group. That way you avoid having to compromise, and a heap of maintenance bills for the aero-ship.

[browntrout]

Pilot DAR,

Thank you for your input, I truly appreciate it. I read the entire posting in this thread, and searched each of the aircraft mentioned. The difference with me and the original poster is that I have 0 hours right now, and need a decent trainer first, then a trouring plane, then and only then an aerobatic plane when I am a competent pilot again. I understand the compromise, but I am not looking to get into competition, just go up and have a little fun. I just watched the Yak 18 and the Saab videos, and they look like great planes for this purpose. Just concerned about the costs involved in a foreign plane's upkeep and MOH, etc... I am not currently interested in owning two planes until I am a competent pilot again.

Thank you, Greg.

Welcome Browntrout, Your choices for 4 place aerobatic may be limited. As other pilots I know, it might be more to your liking, and cost effective, to own a modest touring plane, and an aerobatic type, even single seater, for aerobatic fun. One plane which does both will be a compromise....

[browntrout]

LowNSlow,

thank you for your reply and thought. I will look into this aircraft too. As it is foreign, on of my concerns is what will the upkeep be in the US... As that his all part of the hourly costs.

Sincerely, Greg.

browntrout if you could reduce your needs to a 2 seater then the locally produced Victa Airtourer could work for you:


Home (http://airtourer.asn.au/airtourer/)

There are a few for sale in Oz.

[browntrout]

Ebbie, thank you for your input. I will take a look at the Sundowner a bit more then. I am not looking at competition at this point in my life, just some fun once I am a capable pilot again. Though, that might be fun to consider in the future ast some amateur/basic level.

One of my concerns about all of this is the avialablitlity of parts on foreign aircraft here in the US...

Thank you, Greg.

Not all Sundowners are aerobatic - easy to spot though, they have strakes on the side of the cowl and an extension to the vertical fin below the tail.

A Sundowner is a capable tourer with the ability to do loop, rolls etc. for fun but would not do well in even a beginner competition I think.

I was looking at buying one six years ago - in the end I went with an Archer II and no aeros - mainly due to availability of parts.

[browntrout]

Rat 5, thank you for your input. I would say right now, training is most important, then touring, then aerobatics. However, I currently live in a fairly remote place which does not allow for too many near by clubs, but I will look around, maybe there is on close enough to make this a better idea!

Thank you, Greg.

Which is the more important? Which would be used more? If it's the tourer then buy the best for that and rent the aero, or join an aero group. That way you avoid having to compromise, and a heap of maintenance bills for the aero-ship.

[browntrout]

What about parts and MOH with foreign aircraft? Will it be similar to a US brand, or double, or significantly more... Or, dependent on company? Thanks!

[Tay Cough]

Exactly what RAT5 says. Buy (or share) the one you would use the most. Rent (or share) the other.

[Auster Fan]

Ruschmeyer R-90 I think they're called. Fell in love with them when I saw one in Flyer magazine as a youngster. Think they only made 6. Great looking aircraft with a stick, full IFR panel, retractable gear etc. I don't know if any are still in existence.
One flew into Old Buckenham a few weeks ago: G-UAPO

[semmern]

Another vote for a Saab Safir. The D model, that is. The B model has three seats and a fuel tank behind the left seat, while the D model has wing tanks and four seats. That, and the B is powered by an O-435, which makes a wonderful six-pot sound, but is getting quite expensive to maintain, while the D is powered by an O-360. 190 hp in the former and 180 in the latter, but the 360 is also quite a bit lighter.

Another bonus is that the landing gear and flaps are mechanical, saving lots of trouble and maintenance. It can also be landed gear-up without hull damage, as the wheels protrude slightly. So, no damage to the fuselage, wings or engine, provided the prop is horizontal.

I fly the Safir myself, and handling-wise I rate it at the very top of all GA planes, together with the Chipmunk and Jungmann. The latter, incidentally, designed by Anders J Andersson, the same chap who did the Safir.

[Silvaire1]

There is (believe it or not) an O-360 powered Saab Safir for sale in the US at the moment, N91SB, asking $45K. I have no connection but came across the advert a while ago.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/c4d50625f5c21ef2bc06b5fbfe7bdfa3?AccessKeyId=39C80B935D678D1 886D9&disposition=0&alloworigin=1