Nepal - DHC6 down near Pokhara, Nepal.

[OldChinaHand]

Sadly, yet another loss in Nepal, a Nepal Airlines DHC-6-300 impacted with Terrain near Pokhara today (16/2/14), wreckage located, no indication of survivors at this stage.

[PigeonVoyageur]

http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=69679

Nepal Airlines plane carrying 18 passengers missing on flight from Pokhara to Jumla - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-16/passenger-plane-carrying-18-missing-in-nepal/5263278)

[justanotherflyer]

And on Avherald (http://avherald.com/h?article=47016e9c)

[EladElap]

A friend of mine was flying the same route a couple minutes earlier. He said they flew into some heavy freezing rain, and decided to divert back to their base.

Seems like the general consensus among the Kathmandu pilots, is that it may have been icing related.

[joy ride]

Not looking good:

BBC News - Missing Nepal plane: Wreckage found (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26222528)

[finfly1]

Another link.

National & World News - News 12 Long Island - News 12 Long Island (http://longisland.news12.com/news/nation-world)

[jackcarls0n]

Knew the captain for a long time. He was a good guy.

About the freezing rain that could be a possibility and the twin otter is very old aircraft with no anti ice capability. And it is common for the pilots to fly into IMC without proper IFR routes in the terrain based on heading and GPS. NAC airlines is the only airline that flies the Kathmandu to Jumla via Pokhara Route. I have flown in that terrain but never encountered icing.

But they are many possibilities. Without a CVR and FDR on board, no one would know. And usually they blame it on the pilot as always. Sad but the truth about aviation in Nepal.

Safety needs a huge improvement!!

[Desert185]

Sorry about your friend.

Anti-ice/de-ice was an option on the Twin Otter, although not a great known ice airplane. Are most of the Otters in that region without anti/de-ice?

[Nemrytter]

All the twotters I've flown on within Nepal (as pax) have had de-ice boots (different operator). But based on a distant visual inspection I am fairly sure that Nepal Airlines' aircraft do not.

[ATC Watcher]

Firts jackcarls0n, my condolences. **** happens in our jobs and in some places more often than in others..
And it is common for the pilots to fly into IMC without proper IFR routes in the terrain based on heading and GPS

That was the main issue when I was there . All domestic routes in Nepal are still VFR only correct ? and the GPS is a portable Garmin not issued by the airline(s) ?
Or has this changed recently ?

[Nemrytter]

As of Dec 2013 the answer is yes for both of your questions (both on Nepal Airlines and their competitors).

[reynoldsno1]

About 15 years ago, a whole raft of GPS IFR procedures were developed by a bunch of Kiwis for the Nepalese government. They included a whole route structure and numerous approach procedures - including Pokhara. Sadly, they were never implemented, for reasons unknown.

[jackcarls0n]

@ATC Watcher/

When I was flying in Nepal all the aircraft in Nepal that flew into the mountains had deicing boots removed. I never seen a twin otter in Nepal with deicing boots. Even the ones yeti airlines(tara air) had were not working deicing boots. Most of the time they just had black paint on the leading edge or the boots would remain and they would remove the mechanism to increase payload and same for Dorniers 228.

About the routes some of the aircraft have on board GPS but they are not certified for IFR and they are no IFR routes in those regions. In the mountains it is strictly VFR only. The only thing you can do is do IFR approach back into your base airport which would be Kathmandu/Pokhara/Nepalgunj etc.

But no routes takes you to the mountains on IFR. But again the economics and as said lack of safety, the pilots do fly into IMC conditions without proper routes or procedures. Has been the norm there for long time.

GPS are usually handheld on most of the aircrafts but single engines are all equipped with garmin 430 and 530 with waas and some have weather radar too.

But it is just the culture there. Hopefully nepal learns something soon out of all the crashes and brings in some major changes!

[ATC Watcher]

Thanks you 3 for your answers. So sadly nothing has changed. We too made a list of recommendations when I was there last ( period 2012/til april 2013)
PBN could easily be a (partial) solution but that would mean the airlines have to equip and that they argue it is too expensive . Add a very weak regulator and a misnister of aviation who is also the minister of Tourism.... ,not easy to solve....
But it is just the culture there. Hopefully Nepal learns something soon out of all the crashes and brings in some major changes!

Good conclusion. Unfortunately I fear that as long as the notions of " fate" and non-urgency prevails , and the tourists keep coming, it will take more than "hopes" to change things.

[Desert Budgie]

Just had a look at the Royal Nepal Airlines profile. The Airline now only consists of 2 757s. No Twotters, having written off their entire fleet.

Worrying but not surprising.

[olasek]

garmin 430 and 530 with waas
:confused:
WAAS would be useless for them in this part of the world.

[jackcarls0n]

@ATC Watcher I agree unless the government makes changes and make sure they get implied and rules are not bypassed it wouldn't help at all. The only focus of the CAAN is on Kathmandu and the bigger airplanes that flies in and out of it.



WAAS works pretty well in that area actually. Used it on 430 for 4 year there. Its a good aid, but without the procedures in place it is ofcourse of no use.

One has to make they own flight plans and procedures based on experience.

[olasek]

WAAS works pretty well in that area actuallyThere are no WAAS ground stations in this part of the world so it can't be working. You may think that it is working but in fact it isn't, you are simply receiving an uncorrected GPS signal. WAAS satellite coverage plus ground stations are only available in North America. I am surprised that you as pilot can be so ignorant in this regard.

[aterpster]

olasek:

There are no WAAS ground stations in this part of the world so it can't be working. You may think that it is working but in fact it isn't, you are simply receiving an uncorrected GPS signal. WAAS satellite coverage plus ground stations are only available in North America. I am surprised that you as pilot can be so ignorant in this regard.

Western Europe has it now as well. LPV approaches are well under way.

[olasek]

Western Europe has it now as well. LPV approaches are well under way. First of all in Europe it is called EGNOS, not WAAS.
Makes little difference, neither WAAS nor EGNOS corrections would be available in Nepal.

[porterhouse]

WAAS works pretty well in that area actually. Used it on 430 for 4 year there
How would you know that? The only way for you would be to go to the satellite status page on your Garmin unit and see if you can see WAAS satellites plus you should see a status like "3D DIFF NAV", plus letters "D" under individual satellite bars meaning that differential signal is being applied. Your manual would tell you what to look for. Without those signs there is no WAAS, just normal GPS.

Whether your Garmin 430W is compatible with European EGNOS system (which is much closer) - it is a separate question.

[MarcK]

One difference between the 430 and 430W is the update rate. The 430W updates once per second, the 430 once per 5 seconds. Also (maybe) a better GPS receiver suite.

[jackcarls0n]

@olasek...

My apologies. I meant the GPS worked well. Misinterpreted the usage of the 430 WAAS.

But either ways when a flight is suppose to fly VFR only, and it is not, even having WAAS can be dangerous because of lack of such procedures.

And agreed that WAAS is useless but the 430 garmin and 530 Garmin with weather radar is much better to have in aircraft and increases situational awareness then not having those equipment on board.

[ATC Watcher]

WAAS is only an augmentation system. A other words a precision addition if you like. You need FIRST to have the GNSS set up in place ( like PBN routes and APP, etc.) drawn up, certified and published . Then you can augment.

Last to have PBN you need procedures, ( not too expensive to make ) and the certified equipment on board. That one can be quite expensive if we talk retrofit.

For Nepal, you have no procedures and no equipment. You cannot do PBN/GNSS with a handeld Garmin taped to the dashboard . Most of the airlines ( with perhaps the exception of Buddah) have not really money for this. I am not even talking of the extra training that would be required .

Maybe when the tourists will stop boarding and start asking questions, then perhaps, we will see this implemented.
But as long as ticket price is low and the tourists consider jumping in a old Do228 in marginal weather in mountains part of the adventure, the need to change is relative.