New to Flying

[Hermie]

Hi

I recently started flying. For my landings my instructor insist that I shouldn't use my ailerons throughout my entire approach and landing phase. He says to only use rudder to keep the plane stable for approach.

I am having difficulty trying to understand this concept as I have a tendency to use the ailerons to keep my wings level since ailerons primary control is roll whereas rudder secondary control is roll.

Anyone has any explanation to this method? Is this an alternative method which I'm unfamiliar with? Instructor has 2000+ hours in total and 1500+ hours on the PA28 the aircraft I'm training on.

Thank You

[Dash8driver1312]

I have never heard of this...on gliders, light powered singles (tail and nose wheel types), light twins and commercial turboprops I use coordinated controls at all times unless sideslipping.

Are there other instructors at your club/school with whom you could talk this over? This does not sound to be a good situation to me...

[India Four Two]

Hermie,

Get yourself another instructor. This one sounds dangerous.

[Tankengine]

Yep, get another instructor!:ugh:
(Ex grade 1 instructor - back in 1986 I hit 2000hours instructing)

[DeeCee]

I suggest that he means during final approach pick up a wing with rudder. Coarse application of aileron near stall speed could be dangerous. Use the ailerons for directional control i.e. keeping on the centreline.

[tecman]

Are you conveying the whole story? Is the approach you mention being advocated as a long-term method, or as a remedial technique - maybe for gross overcontrol? I've not heard of the exact situation you describe but I know that some students are their own worst enemies in inducing instability.

As a very low time PPL transitioning to a very high performance aircraft, I recall a few exercises designed to get me out of the habit of inducing roll oscillations on final. I can't help wondering if your instructor is trying to do something similar.

[Andy_P]

When I first started my circuits, the tendency is to try and steer the plane on the centre line by using the yoke/stick. Its the same when you first learn to taxi and aircraft, you want to steer it like a car, but it does not work that way.

Is your instructor saying no aileron during the whole final, or just as you are landing, ie late final.

[cockney steve]

My first reaction, was the instructor is,short-term teaching the pupil what his feet are for!
If , OTOH, he considers this the best way to fly a final approach.....find a more orthodox instructor!
I am not a pilot but have some experience with R/c models...the physics governing flight are the same, except low-mass models are a lot more twitchy than full-size.

[glendalegoon]

Hermie

I am OLD to flying. I learned to fly in a PA28 in 1975 when it was 12 US dollars an hour to rent the thing with gasoline included.

I've taught in the PA28

I've flown many planes.

Get a new instructor. Get a copy of the book, "Stick and rudder" and read it until your eyes are blurry.


Any time you fly, you should be using a combination of ailerons and rudder to make the plane fly correctly, not just rudder. Why do you think the plane has ailerons?

Mind you, the instructor may think you are using too much ailerons, but then he should say: Look Hermie, you are over controlling. It only takes a little bit to get the plane to do what you want it to.


So please, either clarify things with your instructor or get a new one.


I applaud your choice of the cherokee series of planes to learn to fly in.

[RTN11]

Certainly a worrying piece of advice to give any students, don't use one of the primary flight controls when coming into land?!? Never heard such nonsense.

You should clarify that you understand what he means though, he may be just using some technique to try and break a bad habit that you have developed, and might not mean literally don't use ailerons at all.

If that's really what he means, find another instructor.

[Mach Jump]

I suggest that he means during final approach pick up a wing with rudder. Coarse application of aileron near stall speed could be dangerous. Use the ailerons for directional control i.e. keeping on the centreline. :eek:

Hermie.

Some of the posters on here have given you some good advice. This Isn't one of them. :=

On the face of it, your instructor's advice doesn't make any sense. I suspect that there may be some misunderstanding between you.

MJ

[Steve6443]

Quote:
I suggest that he means during final approach pick up a wing with rudder. Coarse application of aileron near stall speed could be dangerous. Use the ailerons for directional control i.e. keeping on the centreline.


Hermie.

Some of the posters on here have given you some good advice. This Isn't one of them.

On the face of it, your instructor's advice doesn't make any sense. I suspect that there may be some misunderstanding between you.

MJ

Just wondering if anyone can trademark a signature.... when I see MJ, I automatically think of a member of this forum from north of the border ;-)

[Mach Jump]

Just wondering if anyone can trademark a signature.... when I see MJ, I automatically think of a member of this forum from north of the border ;-)

I'll try to remember to put a smiley face with mine to save confusion.

MJ:ok:

[tow1709]

I don't think "the entire approach" i.e. all the way from having turned final - is what is meant by OP.


However I distinctly recall one instructor told me to use rudder in those last few seconds before touchdown to get the a/c pointing in the right direction, assuming I was already tracking down the extended centre line of the runway and wings are level.


Just as you would do for a crabbed approach in a crosswind.


Hermie needs to get his instructor to demonstrate exactly what he means.

[gunbus]

Good grief,get another school/instructor or is your existing one a product of the EU and it's EASA crap

[Gertrude the Wombat]

However I distinctly recall one instructor told me to use rudder in those last few seconds before touchdown to get the a/c pointing in the right direction, assuming I was already tracking down the extended centre line of the runway and wings are level.
That interpretation is credible, yes.

Today however I landed on one wheel [the correct one, deliberately] ... try doing that using only the rudder!

[SloppyJoe]

When I was instructing I found using the rudder an extremely useful tool for maybe one or two circuits, almost all student spend so much time flying the plane it uses all their mental ability and the whole circuit is a mad rush to them.

I explained beforehand that this is not how you fly a plane but will show you how much time you have. Take off, trim, let go of yolk and use gentle rudder inputs to keep it wings level. At level off trim and set power and once stable let go of yolk and use gentle rudder inputs to keep it pointing the right way same thing for base and final, set power for descent and trim then let go again, (needed yolk for the 90deg turns) at flap extension use yolk. For some reason people do not ever seem to over control with their feet during this exercise and it is mostly flown without any input at all, the students are amazed at how much time they have and how free their mind is to think ahead of the aircraft. After one or two circuits like this the over controlling is almost gone when using the yolk as it should be, and it is a far more relaxed time for the student.

I would only do this around the solo stage or later.

[DeeCee]

Hermie, there is some complete rubbish being posted here. Talk to your Instructor and get him to explain exactly what he means.

I was also taught to use rudder during final approach to pick up a wing (this is what I think he means) and anyone (and I mean anyone that can fly a real aeroplane) knows that during slow flight you should be careful using coarse aileron.

If in doubt, ask your Instructor. Trust is very important and your Instructor wants you to learn to fly properly and safely.

Frankly, I can't believe some of the ridiculous comments on here. e.g. what on earth is a yolk? Ye gods!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: :ugh:

[cockney steve]

@ sloppyjoe (and others who have the same problem, there are several!)

yolk is the yellow bit in the middle of a bird's egg, OK?

a YOKE is two rings, joined together, forming a figure8. Usually elliptical,each loop passes over the head of a beast and the centre commonly is attached to a drawbar in order that the two beasts can share the pulling of a load....they are said to be YOKED together.

the designation YOKE is applied to the "handlebar" used to control an aircraft as an alternative to a "stick", probably because of it's shape being reminiscent of the yoke used to harness two horses / bullocks / oxen etc.

No more yolks in the Cockpit, please, unless they are crew-food! :p

[Tarq57]

I suggest that he means during final approach pick up a wing with rudder. Coarse application of aileron near stall speed could be dangerous. Use the ailerons for directional control i.e. keeping on the centreline.
And, if course, coarse application of the rudder near the stall isn't just as dangerous?

This argument seems to be a bit specious.

I agree with Mach Jump.

Ask the instructor. There may be some misunderstanding. If not explained to your satisfaction, ask another instructor.

[gooddaysir]

im pre-ppl but just for the record, I'm being taught a similar thing especially in crosswinds. Pick up the centreline using whatever controls you need down to about 200 feet, carb heat to cold, and just use rudders after that to keep it facing in the right direction. Ailerons should only be used to make sure the rudder inputs don't make one of the wings drop too far


but I am by no means an expert lets make that thing very clear

[bubbers44]

My initial instructor said when flying our tail dragger Aeronca champ to parallel the runway center line with rudders and use the ailerons to control drift. It worked perfectly through 23,000hrs from biplanes to B 767's. Landing on the upwind wheel with tires lined up with centerline works every time. It worked on 80 different aircraft and is so easy to do. Keep things simple and don't listen to some pilot just because he has more hours than you. I didn't. Airplanes don't like landing in a crab so do my simple procedure. It works every time.

GSS, your instructor is making you into a robot, not a real pilot. Please let him let you land using piloting skills as we were taught decades ago. They work much better. You can do it. Maybe he will learn something from you. Just tell him you want to try something different.

Everybody should learn to fly in a tail wheel airplane just to know how to land properly without ground looping. Then carry it on.

[DeeCee]

This has drifted away from the original question. He did not ask about landing in a crosswind.

If you are close to the stall and use coarse application of aileron you risk stalling the 'up' wing.

SloppyJoe - does PAT mean anything to you. Thought not......

[Crash one]

I think Chuck sums this up very nicely in post 19.

[thing]

Everybody should learn to fly in a tail wheel airplane just to know how to land properly without ground looping.

I'll take that one step further, I think that anyone who wants a power license should get to a least solo standard on gliders first.

I also think that anyone who wants to drive should learn to ride a motorcycle first.

[Hermie]

Thanks everyone for your replies. Since my eighth hour, I have been told to never to use the ailerons to align myself if my plane does drift left/right of RWY while trying to keep centreline for landing.

Even when there was a strong gust of wind, that lift the wing from one side and I immediately counter it with opposite aileron control and he tells me that, "I like to use the ailerons alot and I should only use rudder inputs." This applies to both gusty wind conditions and light & variable.

Over the weekend winds were 9kts gusting to 13kts, and I was kept from using the ailerons throughout the entire approach, landing, flare and touchdown. He has other current students and they all don't seem to have a problem with this technique. Apparently, I am the only one with this problem. :ugh:

And when I clarified with him he says that this is the method for landing. He doesn't show me the crab method nor the slip method despite having crosswinds during our landing.

So I am really confused and having a tough time for my circuit phase now.

[Heston]

I once had a PPL student who came to me from another school - he'd done about 30 hours - and he had quite clearly been taught only to steer with rudder after the final turn. Needless to say he was struggling to keep lined up, allow for crosswind drift and fly the approach in a way that gave me any confidence that he really saw how it worked. It took a long time to re-train him.


To my discredit I never asked his original instructor if he taught everybody that way. I should have done.


Hermie - I'm sorry, but what you are being taught is wrong. Has your instructor explained WHY he thinks you should only use rudder for the approach?

[Echo Romeo]

I think Chuck sums this up very nicely in post 19.

Ditto, what a load of carp this thread is :ugh:

[glendalegoon]

Hermie:

Perhaps your instructor has reinvented flying? Pray tell me what he allows you to use the ailerons for?

More than one person on this thread has offered advice, have you taken it?

Can you find another instructor?


I remember a bad movie about 48 years ago and someone was talking down someone else who had not flown this type of plane before and they kept telling him to use the rudder for small adjustments. BUT IT WAS A MOVIE.

Hermie, our advice won't work if you don't take it.

Oh, one other thing. Does the slip skid ball stay centered while your instructor uses this rudder only technique? If it does, I would be surprised.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

If what Hermie is describing is accurate the instructor is incompetent.

I would ask the regulator who gave said instructor his / her license and then demand the regulator remove the inspector from the position of issuing flight instructor ratings and change his / her job to mowing the lawn with a push lawn mower with no engine.

And hire the instructor as a helper, to rake and pick up the cut grass.....

That will give both of them a position that is useful to society.

[Lakhan]

Nearly completed ppler:When on finals I point plane into wind (using my feet :)) and keep wings level using aileron. Just before touchdown correct to runway heading using rudders and aileron into wind. This is what I've been taught. I think I would struggle just using the rudders on final.

Lak

[Mach Jump]

My initial instructor said when flying our tail dragger Aeronca champ to parallel the runway center line with rudders and use the ailerons to control drift. It worked perfectly through 23,000hrs from biplanes to B 767's. Landing on the upwind wheel with tires lined up with centerline works every time. It worked on 80 different aircraft and is so easy to do. Keep things simple.

As far as the final part of the approach/landing is concerned, I couldn't have put it better!:)

For the most part of the approach, fly whatever heading maintains the centreline, using the rudder to prevent yaw and the ailerons to keep the wings level.
If you need to make a turn, use coordinated aileron and rudder to prevent adverse yaw (maintain balance) as you roll into and out of the turn.

Hermie
Is your instructor a different nationality and having difficulty explaining things in your language? If he is, you should find another instructor who speaks your language. If he isn't, you should just find another instructor!

MJ:ok:

[Andy_P]

My initial instructor said when flying our tail dragger Aeronca champ to parallel the runway center line with rudders and use the ailerons to control drift. It worked perfectly through 23,000hrs from biplanes to B 767's. Landing on the upwind wheel with tires lined up with centerline works every time.

This is the way I am currently being taught!

[Cusco]

Do not waste anymore money or lessons with this instructor, find a new one quickly.


Yeah, right: So Hermie trolls up to his instructor and says ' I can't fathom your final approach advice so I've asked a load of people on the internet who I don't know, have never met and have indeterminate credentials and they all say you're cr ap'.

Hermie: before you do that, have a quiet word with the CFI of your club and ask him what's best to do.

(Unless your instructor is the CFI in which case you're stuffed.):rolleyes:

Cusco

[bubbers44]

The rudder to align with center line and ailerons to control drift of course is only in the final 50 ft. I have seen copilots do it at 200 ft and it makes it uncomfortable for the passengers for no reason. I thought everybody taught the way I learned. I guess the magenta line pilots are trying to make everything mechanical, no pilot skills required.

[Mach Jump]

I thought everybody taught the way I learned

Sometimes we don't realise how lucky we are. ;)

MJ:ok:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I guess the magenta line pilots are trying to make everything mechanical, no pilot skills required.

The downward spiral of flight instructor competency started long before the magenta line came into the cockpit.

The cause for the downward spiral is really not that difficult to determine.

First there is a regulator that is stuck in the cave man era of intelligence with their only agenda being growing their bureaucracy to protect their income to their graves.

Second is the ass backwards thinking that pilots start their flying careers by becoming flight instructors to build time to fly in regular commercial operations. What cretin thought up that scenario?

Third is the domino effect that a poor flight instructor will have on all the new instructors they teach .......it has to go downward over time.

Chuck Ellsworth.....from the Socialist Republic of Canada...

....where cretins in power has become the norm.

[Mach Jump]

where cretins in power has become the norm

Don't imagine that the Socialists have a monopoly on cretinism, Chuck! :sad:

MJ:ok:

[Whirlybird]

Yeah, right: So Hermie trolls up to his instructor and says ' I can't fathom your final approach advice so I've asked a load of people on the internet who I don't know, have never met and have indeterminate credentials and they all say you're cr ap'.

No, Hermie simply says politely that he'd like to try a different instructor for a bit. If pushed, he could say he's finding things hard and thinks it might help. But actually, he doesn't NEED to give a reason; it's his money and his choice. Any problem, go to a different flying school!

Whirly (who did just that after about 30 hours on helicopters, refused to criticise or discuss it in detail, but said she either wanted a new instructor or a new school...and got a new instructor!)

[Cusco]

Sense of humour failure whirly:ugh:

[Crash one]

Many moons ago I was being taught co-ordinated turns with stick & rudder in a glider. I asked my instructor, "Can I try something?". "What's that.". "I would like to try a turn without the ailerons just to see what happens". "Go ahead", says he. The end result you all know, but it taught me something I didn't know at the time and my instructor said, "quite right , don't just do it cos I said so, understand the thing you are doing, and the reason behind it".

If Hermie can't understand something he should be able to ask. If the instructor can't understand his confusion or can't explain his teaching then replace the instructor, but give him a chance first. Is this a language problem?
My instructor at the time was a Scotsman, I was by that time certified Scottish, so could understand the meaning of rapidly uttered:- "Dinnae dae that, ye'll hae us in the watter". So I was able to react accordingly to such advice. At a later date I was being screamed at by a Spanish instructor in a 152 to, "Left rudder"!! as we were rapidly approaching the grass on the left! I was forced to ignore his advice and we discussed the niceties of the English language after landing.

[Piltdown Man]

If you are close to the stall and use coarse application of aileron you risk stalling the 'up' wing.

Not if you are flying at a reasonable speed (1.3 Vs) you won't. And if you a flying slower than this, either fix it PDQ or go-around.

But returning to the OP opening question: If you are confused about any aspect of your instruction, you must ask immediately. The lesson loses its value if there is something you don't understand. And keep asking until you do understand. Remember, you are paying dearly for your lessons and you deserve value for money.

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