The 'walkaround'

[AJ]

It seems to be apparent from certain posts here on pprune, that some airlines' flightcrew opt not to carry out a walkaround, and concerns are subsequently always raised about this.

As I am sure there is more than 1 airline 'involved', I would prefer to concentrate on whether folk here on pprune consider this a serious danger, or simply a matter of choice-rather than naming any names.

Do you consider a walkaround inspection of the aircraft:

1) Essential

2) More precautionary, than essential

3) Matter of choice, with little direct impact on safety?

Thanks in advance for any responses.

[tinyrice]

Essential............ If you want know whats broken, you look in the logbook. If you want to know what might be broken - you look at the aircraft. I cannot imagine anybody except perhaps a military pilot "scrambling", who wouldn't want to ensure its safe to fly before flying it. I've found enough stuff on maintenance walkrounds to know that there's stuff out there for somebody to find and fix before aviating.

[Empty Cruise]

Essential!

Some pre-flight inspection items get worse over time if not performed - and suddenly you have AOG and waste $$$ at an alarming rate. :(

Some companies have adopted a policy of 1 warning over safety related items - next time you're out! Just gave a guy his first & final warning the other day - over lack of proper pre-flight.

So - somebody will learn to take it seriously :mad: :rolleyes: :mad: - one way or the other.

Brgds,
Empty

[Captain Stable]

If any captain did not, or did not have his F/O carry out a walk-round and a subsequent problem came to light, he is on a very sticky wicket indeed.

Sorry, but it is Airmanship.

If anyone neglects it, thinking "Oh, it'll be ok - it got us here, didn't it?" then I hope they'll tell me before I ever fly with them, because I never, ever will.

On turnaround, I've notived a boot ripped to shreds that had happened during the previous sector. Even when the aircraft has just had a check from an engineer, I still walk round. That way, I've noticed oil filler flaps left open by them...

Neglecting a walkround is lazy, is p!ss-poor airmanship, and, as far as I am concerned, is grounds for dismissal, being gross negligence of duty.

[big pistons forever]

A quick walk around the aircraft after ever leg doing the " nothing hanging, nothing dripping " check has saved my butt.... twice

[Mago]

Essential, of course!

And I perform it myself everyother flight.

Besides one thing I like is to "caress" the airplane when I do it.

If you do not like what you flight them work in other profession!

[chiglet]

At the risk of putting the feline amongst the avians,
In 32 years of Tower and Runway Control duties and umpteen Fam flights, I have only witnessed ONE , count 'em one walk round, and that was with a friend of mine on the ground at Malaga:eek:
[I know that I can't see everything from the tower (MAN/EGCC) but I can see quite a lot:p
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[FlapsOne]

tinyrice

Even a 'scrambling' mil pilot does a walkround. It is done at the start of the duty and the aircraft is effectively quarantined.

chiglet

I just cannot believe that.

BTW I agree with the above comments................a pre-flight walkround is essential .............. and there ain't no slot on the planet more important.

[tinyrice]

Thanks Flaps One. Not having been in the military (found this big yellow streak up my back on the physical), I always wondered how they did that. Chiglet - you're having a giraffe - right?? Good one................

[Localiser Green]

Sorry but this thread has me somewhat perplexed. It was my understanding that a pre-flight external inspection by the pilot in command (or the effoh on his/her behalf) was a legal requirement prior to every flight? It seems perhaps I was wrong... :confused:

Whilst I can only claim 200 hours total flying in nothing bigger than a Seneca (yet!), I have never not done a thorough walkaround prior to every single flight. Whether it is pouring down or 110 degrees outside (and I've been in both), it's my life up there.

One would think an airline pilot would appreciate that his/her decision on airworthiness protects hundreds of lives, how can such a judgement be made from the comfort of the flightdeck? Seriously?

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

I can't comprehend a pilot not doing a walkround. It's not only company policy, but a legal requirement.

Always did a walkround in mil flying too - no matter how pressed for time we may have been.

Chiglet - I'm not criticizing your comment, but are you completely sure of your facts....if so tell me. That way I can avoid flying with f******

[chiglet]

I have flown in both Civil and Military a/c, from Chipmonks to B747-400s.
During my time at RAF Kuching [Borneo] in the mid '60s, on muliple stop/start Whirlwnd, Belvedere, Single and Twin Pioneer missions there were no repeat NO intermediate walkrounds.
In light twin ops [multi legs] with a charter company, no walkrounds
I have sat on the FD duing turnaround [in the J/S] and no one has asked me to move, other than go to the loo.
BTW at RAF Woodvale, the Chippies didn't have a walkround after multi cadet trips, and sometimes not even after refuelling.
Now defunct, Air Europe Malta-Brum-Manch. The only time a FD crew left his seat was to help the CSD close the door, in MINUS 6C :eek: at Brum before the Manch leg
Same Airline on the ground at Corfu stayed on FD
Ambassador Ditto
As to the others, don't ask I've got amnesia.
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
ps When I'm next in the tower at Manch, I will definitely make a point of [really] looking out of the window

[eyeinthesky]

Remember the report on the Potomac bridge crash in Washington? A passenger looking out from the terminal noted that the aircraft pushed back and started engines with NO sign of any footprints in the snow around the aircraft to suggest a walkround had taken place. The aircraft, contaminated with snow on the wings and in the engine nacelles, subsequently crashed into the Potomac river after failing to get airborne from National.

[chiglet]

Thanx eye
A "Walkround" as has been stated, is mandatory.
I have passed my "observations" and have been "Disbelieved".
In my [Personal] experience, a few examples.
On the first flight of the day, I have very little knowledge of the inspections of these aeroplanes. BUT, if has been suggested, A "Walkround" is Mandatory [ or even "adviseable"] after every flight, I have to differ.
EGs
Non UK airline (Fam Flt)
Arr, pax off, clean, replenish, pax [inc me] board, push and taxi,
No "observed" walkround. Land at intermediate, pax etc..FD crew engaged in conversation with self, no walkround.
Return leg...Exactly the same.
UK airlines..Late arr [a/c change], so no idea af walkround. Arr "Europe" late, Quick turnround.....
Ditto internal UK on "more than one" turboprop
DC10 Alicante, A300 Palma, Ba11 Malaga,B757 Las Palmas...
I "could" go on, but I think that I have made my point.
we [really do] aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[gofer]

At the risk of possible wrath from many fronts, was it not at MAN that a Crossair captain was killed by ground traffic while doing a 'company manditory' walkaround ?

Should pilots really be put at such risk ?
However sick and sad for those directly and indirectly involved in that case, the answer has to be - YES - its part of the most basic of basics, and part of the job.

As SLF it is difficult to know if a walkaround has taken place or not - but if I knew for certain that a walkaround had NOT taken place, I don't care how many slots you miss, my bags are coming off and I'm not on board.

[Capt. Crosswind]

Essential & Mandatory
I've never known of a pre flight not being done, ever.
On three crew acft as well as the Stoker doing a walk around
Capt or F/O also carried out an inspection - even when OAT was minus fifteen C.

[Captain Stable]

The regulations, of course, do not say WHO has to do the walkround. You need to note, chiglet, that it does not have to be the flightcrew. It could well be a ground engineer who signs for it. You may not see him (on fam flights). You may not even notice him (from the tower) among all the other people milling around an aircraft on turnround.

I have to say, though, in support of chiglet, that I have many times observed aircraft from a well-known low-cost airline whose turnrounds are so tight that on taxy they set off GATSO cameras arrive at the gate. I have watched them from a good vantage point and on many, many occasions there is no walk-round performed.

I stress that this is one airline only that I have observed. No other.

[mcdhu]

Essential!
Once you're up in the ether, there are certain things about which you can do NOTHING. Eg Gear pins left in, oil filler caps left open, tyres in bad nick etc.
I also bet that the unfortunate crew of the BMI A321 that had a tailscrape on landing at Dub in difficult conditions wished they had done a w/r when they found that they couldn't pressurise on the way back to Lhr. In fairness, by their own rules, they were not compelled to do a w/r; this was delegated to an engineer, but, guess what, he got distracted!
It's no good sitting up at FL350 wondering if all's ok outside when you should have checked!
Cheers
mcdhu

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

In the year I have been line flying I have found only two things on walkarounds. One was a sticky starter valve that kept the number 1 engine turning and the other was a quite large bird strike on the Starboard LED's in BCN which we had cleaned off.

Not much.

But not insignificant. Over the next 30 odd years - based on the last 1 - I rationally expect to find something very significant.

Which airline is it that does not do walkarounds?

WWW

[chiglet]

I hear what everybody has said, but I have experienced turnrounds where the only visitor to the FD was the CSD:rolleyes: No engineers report, just xx boarded and ready to go. Is this normal?
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[TwinNDB]

I must admit that when flying as a pax I havent really taken much notice of what the flight crew has been doing. After all, its not the pax's job to check up on them, you expect them to do the job that they are being paid for properly!!!

However, I can remember times when waiting in the lounge of ALWAYS seeing the crew (when i have been looking), wether a change over or not, do a walk around. This hasnt been observed on Long Haul legs but on some of our domestic routes (in AUS). It is reasurring to see and I CANNOT understand how Flight Crew would not do one, EVER!

Twin.

[CloggyUK]

Being a trainee atco i've done my fair share off fam flights. On all of them, Dutch and UK airlines, a walk around was done by either capt or FO.
Even when i fly as a pax, which i do a lot, i try to see if somebody does a walk around. If not, i pay extra attention to where the emergency exits are.

[gas_man]

engineers spend their whole life touching and seeing metal ..... seeing attachments ....seeing leaks ..etc..so aren't they in a vastly superior position to judge the safety of an aircraft? aren't their eyes better trained , just as much as a pilot is better trained to interpret the weather ?

i am not a pilot or an engineer ... your views will be interesting .

prasanna

[Captain Stable]

gas_man:-

It's six of one and half a dozen of the other, really. Yes, the engineer is more familiar with the nitty-gritty of the mechanics. However, the pilots have probably flown the aircraft on one or more sectors already, and will be familiar with how it looked on the last walkround, therefore being better placed to spot differences ("Hey - that tyre's wearing a bit fast - I wonder why?")

At an outstation, as well, the engineer may not be familiar at all with the particular aircraft, whereas little niggly "peculiarities" of a particular airframe will be reasonably well-known to the pilots in any medium-sized fleet.

All in all, it's not a bad idea for both to do a walk-round.

[Eff Oh]

chiglet
I fly from MAN for a large charter airline. I can assure you that on EVERY flight, no matter how bad the weather is, a walkround is always done. My previous company was the same. I have never been on a line flight in the 3 years I have been line flying, that has not had a walkround performed. I think it is essential, particularly as this is when the loaders tend to crash into the fuselage!! :)
Eff Oh.

[woderick]

Whilst I accept 'chiglet's' perception of what he/she thinks they have observed, in 30 years at EGCC, working with probably 30 carriers as a Line Engineer, I have never, NEVER known a walkround not done by both the operating crew and the certifying engineer - it just does not happen.

[chiglet]

I have read the replies with interest, but dredging my memory, I recall an "incident" at BHX/EGBB in 1969/70 [memory a "bit" hazy] when a BEA Bac11 taxied off stand 6A, the oleoes compressed and the underside of the wing hit the uppr surface of the Bac11s wing on 6B.
Both captains leapt out, hit the wing with their fist[s] and went on their merry way:rolleyes:
Would that be "acceptable"today? :confused:
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy