Stepping down gracefully....

[mary meagher]

Pasted up on the loo doors in the gliding club, and in a lot of other places, the mantra I'M SAFE! The guide to help you decide, are you FIT TO FLY today?

I for Illness, M for Medication, S for Stress, A for Alcohol, F for Fatigue, E....don't remember what E stands for.

All worthy considerations. But how do you decide when the time comes to step down gracefully from flying due to AGE and the inevitable decline in sharpness that comes with old age? Or do you just wait until the medics give you the chop?

There are two kinds of pilots, Bold Pilots and Old Pilots, they say. But there are also two kinds of Old Pilots. If you have been flying for years and years and years, your accumulated experience and good sense would imply you can still cut the mustard. BUT those who start flying in their fifties or sixties, able to buy a fancy Cirrus with its get out of trouble rocket chute, are less likely to cope when the weather turns uncomfortable, or the magenta line goes on the blink....

Having the good sense to say no, to quit when you are still ahead, could you do that?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I did. I think!

[Jon_D]

Forgive me for this being only my second post, but I have been a regular reader of this and other GA forums for some time as I intend to commence taking flying lessons in 2014. I must take issue with the apparent stated premise that people over a certain age (whatever that may be) should not consider taking up GA piloting as a hobby. What evidence is there to support this suggestion? The reason I feel obliged to make these comments as my first input to the forum is personal. At 75 years of age, I have read and absorbed all the books necessary for the PPL exams, am mentally fit, and following the medical, my physical condition and responses are 100%. Bear in mind that far more car accidents are caused by the under 25s than over 65s. Age is nothing more than a number; attitude and ability are more important.

Happy 2014
John (Psychologist Rtd)

[Rallye Driver]

I stopped flying nearly four years ago. The increasing costs meant that I was flying less and less, and I no longer felt that I was properly current.

So when I got to the last entry on the last page of my log book I decided it was as good a time as any to stop.

I achieved far more than I ever imagined when I learnt in the late 90s, including a fair bit of formation flying and some aerobatics.

My day job is Air/Ground Radio at a busy GA airfield with a challenging mix of aircraft from microlights to ex-military fast jets, Cessnas to biz jets, with a few Merlin-powered warbirds too.

On a busy day, when we have to deal with several hundred movements, it is immensely satisfying to get everyone up and down safely. So I have no regrets, and am pleased that others are still able to enjoy aviating in its many facets.

RD :ok:

[jollyrog]

I must take issue with the apparent stated premise that people over a certain age (whatever that may be) should not consider taking up GA piloting as a hobby. What evidence is there to support this suggestion?

The number of newspaper/BBC reports of elderly driver wiping themselves out (or coming close to it) driving the wrong way down the motorway.

The number of AAIB reports of elderly pilots pranging their aeroplanes on take off or landing, where there are no external factors, nor mechanical failure.

Insurance companies who refuse to insure > age 75, or impose special conditions, which is obviously a consequence of historical analysis and risk assessment.

[BabyBear]

At 75 years of age, I have read and absorbed all the books necessary for the PPL exams, am mentally fit, and following the medical, my physical condition and responses are 100%.

Jon whilst I admire your enthusiasm and certainly would not discourage you it worries me somewhat that you may be over confident.

What exactly do you mean by 100% physical condition? Surely you are not suggesting you are as you were at 25? If you mean 100% of what can be expected for 75 years of age that is a very different thing. Please do not undertake your PPL believing you have not deteriorated over the years.

BB

[znww5]

The only time I have ever come across the suggestion that there is a 'sell-by' date after which you constitute a liability as a student/pilot, was in a book by Derek Piggott. I thought it was simplistic nonsense then, and I still do now.

The physiological requirements are simple enough to assess in terms of health, strength, articulation, motor skills and visual acuity; I think we all know that you don't have to be an Olympic athlete to be a pilot!

So that leaves the psychological issues of memory, situational interpretation and workload capacity. How you fare in both areas is down to a) the genetic lottery and b) lifestyle. By way of example, I have known people who are as sharp as a pin in their 90's and others in their 60's who don't know the day of the week.

In fact you could argue that the 'older student' population is self-selecting in any case. This is because all students need the motivation and learning ability to slog through the exams and the dedication to consolidate the muscle-memory for the practical aspect of physically flying the aircraft.

So let us please move away from the idea that ability is inversely proportional to chronological age. Time undoubtedly takes its toll, but as adults the vast majority will know when it is time to quit. Indeed, I have a lot of respect for those who have the maturity to do so.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Like a lot of us on these forums I earn my living flying and also fly as a hobby. I usually fly between 300-550hours per year for work, another 100-150 for fun and am reasonably current.


I have, however noticed a marked difference in instrument scan and memory ability between the ages of 40 and 50. That may be because between age 30 and age 40 I was flying 800 hours per year for work and was therefore far more current, it may just be down to age, but certainly asking the question in the crew room a lot of pilots notice their skills slipping as middle age moves on, their knowledge will usually keep them from areas where they really need all their skills, but I don't believe anyone can be as good mentally at sixty as they were at thirty. I'm kind of relieved that I have to stop professional flying at sixty.


SND

[Pace]

SND

With government talking about an ever increasing pension age, better health and longevity and the rights of people to carry on in their careers for much longer probably to 70 why should pilots be sidelined at 60?
If you pass your medical there should not be an age restriction as apart from discrimination against one group in society I really wonder whether there is evidence that older pilots are more accident prone.

As an example I am close to that age :{ recently did a car driving competition on a race track in a Porshe GT3. i felt like the grandfather with 25 others in the competition which was electronically timed with an instructor alongside.

the other 25 mostly comprised of people in their 25s to 35s with a handful in their 40s.
Guess who won with a considerable lap time margin over the second placed guy?
Ok I used to race cars but can still put in equal times to the instructors.
i do not say this as a brag but to make a point!

you may argue that I have experience competitively racing cars but thats just the point I am making!

Pace

[Whirlybird]

People age at very, very, very different rates....

When I became a helicopter instructor in my early 50s, people told me it was a young person's job, especially on such demanding, responsive machines as the R22 helicopter. I had absolutely no idea what they meant. My stamina, reaction speed, memory etc seemed to be the same as they had been in my 20s. I loved the long hours airborne on good weather days, and would happily have flown 7 days a week.

By a few years later, I still loved it, could still do it effectively, but used to get home utterly exhausted. I looked forward to days off, and the day I woke up on a bad weather day and thought, "Thank God I don't have to fly today" was the day I realised something had changed.

By the time a combination of the recession, flying school closing, and some minor medical issues meant I had to take a break from instructing, I was relieved. I was as sharp as ever most of the time, but.... Something wasn't the same. What was it? Was I missing little things, taking longer to react? I wasn't sure, but I didn't feel 100% safe any more. There were some tiny warning signals in my brain. And.....I just don't seem to have got around to renewing my instructor rating, and I don't think I want to. I blame it on no job and no money, but they aren't the only reasons, if I'm honest with myself.

Of course, instructing is very different from flying as a PPL, and helicopters are more demanding than f/w aircraft, particularly when something goes wrong. And this might have happened to me in my 60s, 70s, 90s...who knows? I only know that whereas 10 years ago I would have said that age made no difference, and been outraged at the suggestion that it did, I know now from experience that it does. For me. For now. For the rest of you? I'm not arrogant enough to know, or even to suggest, or to lay down any kind of law or particular age for stopping. But I do think Mary has raised an important issue here.

[Pace]

Whirlybird

I take in fully what you are saying and equally know that while i am OK now who knows what lies ahead or how quickly in autumn years you can go down hill, but it still raises political points with the fact that the government keeps moving the pension gold post further ahead.

They use the excuse that people are living longer, that they are healthier, the new 60s are the old 50s etc.

it is hard on our industry to be shoved out at 60 while everyone else will be told to carry on until 70.

I am sure those of us who hold type ratings will be told on renewals if we are slowing up or not cutting it in the sim.
as for memory I could never remember names when I was 20 so no change there :ok:

One thing I am sure of is if you think OLD you will be OLD far before your time

Pace

[Whirlybird]

Pace,

Is repeating yourself a sign of growing older, do you think? :):):)

Think old? A whole separate issue. Our society is somewhat obsessed with chonological age, don't you think? "Old" is a taboo word. If you say you're old, people fall over backwards to tell you it's not true. Why? What on earth does it matter? What do I call myself in my 60s - young? Why has a simple descriptive word acquired all these negative connotations?

The political issues - ah, that's a whole separate thing, and I don't feel inclined to get into it right now, though you are of course correct with respect to the government and pension goalposts. Living longer and healthier does not mean being the same as a far younger person.... or not for everyone, anyway.

[Johnm]

I don't think you can generalise easily. I started to learn to fly aged 52. Took an IMCR in 15 hours 2 years later and did my IR aged 62. I still fly a TB20 IFR in the airways aged 66 and don't find it difficult. I will agree that I'm not as current on hand flying as I probably should be, but if I'm in doubt I go flying with an instructor to sharpen things up.

I plan carefully and I always strive to keep ahead of the aeroplane, so far so good, but not complacent

[Pace]

Is repeating yourself a sign of growing older, do you think?

Absolutely not :ok: the two traits I had when I was 20 were repeating my self and never remembering names so nothing changed :{

Repeating myself again when I do a sim and the examiner says " old boy your not up to speed " then I will say Cheerio

Pace

[Big Pistons Forever]

My oldest PPL student was 72. I considered him one of my best students. There was no question that he took longer to learn the hands and feet part of the training but that was more than made up by his maturity, lack of ego and his enthusiasm.

He wanted to learn to fly for his whole life and had finally arrived at the time in his life when he had the time and financial resources to start training.

After he got his license he continued to fly regularly for 5 years. At that point he decided to hang up his spurs due to deteriorating vision. He could just barely pass the vision part of the medical but he no longer felt he was safe to fly.

[Tone]

it was the heart what did it for me. Made a very good recovery from a heart attack, no change in anything except my flying. I heard it would have been possible to get my medical back after a year without death - but the hoops I would have had to jump through to satisfy those nice CAA medics would have killed me. I could have gone from PPL to NPPL, doctor perfectly happy to sign the form. But at 70 and with lots of flying behind me I decided to hang up the electric hat. Must confess to being a bit grumpy when I hear someone enjoying themselves on a CAVOK day.
HeyHo

[Crash one]

At the age of 74 this discussion just makes me nervous. Why is age so important to everyone? I went to Sywell last August, camped for three days & flew home (267nm each way) in a wind of 35kn getting shot to bits over the Borders. Scud running, Pressonitis and all that crap that I'm supposed to have grown out of.
Was I just stupid for doing it, or should I be pleased I still can? And no I'm not bragging, I'd just like to be allowed to carry on till I decide. I hate this bloody ageism thing.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Ageism? That's not what the OP intended. Ageism is when someone else says "you're too old to do that". This thread is about individuals saying "I'm not as sharp as I was / not enjoying it it like I did; time to stop".

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I have not posted here for a long time but still read the forum occasionally.

This subject has prompted me to give my thoughts on this subject so here goes. :)

First of all there is no across the board answer to the " to old to fly safely " question, it varies from person to person.

We do however have means by which to measure both physical health and also a pilots ability to physically handle an aircraft which is a flight test that is structured and judged by using a test sheet with quality of performance recorded for each maneuver or item.

The are just to many physiological issues involved in when one should quit that we each must examine our own mental attitude with regard to when we should quit.......in other words when doubt enters the equation that is the time to put everything on the table and examine what has changed.

My decision to retire from commercial aviation just happened by accident....I was getting my regular pilots license medical when the conversation got around to me telling the doctor that I was practicing for unlimited aerobatics contests........well it did not take long for the doctor to ask me what G loads I was pulling and when I told him he said not any more because you are getting to the age where your body just may not stand such treatment....

.........anyhow that was the moment I decided to retire because I made a deal with the doctor that I would tell the people I was flying for that I had to retire at the end of the airshow season.

It turned out to be one of the best decisions I ever made because I finally found a new life at home where I could live like a normal human being and not have to live in hotels all over the planet.

For two years I never even thought of flying until a friend talked me into flying his company airplane and there I was back to " having " to fly at someone else s wishes...so after two years of that I told my friend that due to having no valid medical I could not fly for him anymore...I was telling the truth because I just did not get a medical which of course invalidated my license. :ok:

When I retired from commercial flying the first time I was 70 and the second time I was 76.

But it does not stop there.....I am 78 now and about to renew my pilot medical because I am about to start a new flight training program for young pilots who want to fly for a living.

So age wise I am quite confident that I am safe as I had a medical done on my own but not for Transport Canada and had every test that I could get done including an ultrasound when all the tests were finished all they could find was I was low on vitamin D ...and that is not really all that shocking as it was winter time and it was to cold to go out in the sun. :ok:

So to sum this up.

There is no one size fits all to determine at what age one should quit flying, what one must do is use common sense get real in depth physical exams and then determine if you really want to fly.

Chuck Ellsworth.

[Pace]

Ok one last shot at the get old quickly :ok:brigade
Two examples

Last year the world champion base jumper was a man of 62 yrs of age beating young guys of 25 30 etc!

I had a lovely old friend a pilot who loved flying and had an amazing passion for flying!
He would call me very day with this idea or that idea! always full of life with a twinkle in his eye.
the last two years of his life he carried out 30 trans Atlantic ferries on his own ferrying stuff no one else wanted to ferry!
He had far more guts than I ever had often ferrying knackered singles from the USA to parts of Europe and beyond.
I told him on many occasions that on one of these trips he would not return!
his reply was that he loved what he did and did what he loved and if he did not return so be it!
Sadly he died in Canada ferrying a 172 in terrible weather mid winter and iced up.
He died not because of his age but because of his character. he had such an infectious enthusiasm and had such a good philosophy in life, was a huge support through my divorce that i really miss the daily chats I had with him and the support that was always there.

IF YOU WANT TO GROW OLD YOU WILL GROWN OLD WHETHER YOU ARE 50 60 70 or in My friends case he was still young at heart at 78

Pace

[G_STRING]

A very interesting thread, thanks to the op who started it.

I must say that for me, out of all the replies and points put forward, Whirlybird's posts make the most interesting and indeed, sensible reading.

He/she is correct in the assumption that age affects everybody differently - indeed, I know 50 year olds who are old before their time (and 80 year olds who jump over their heads). Is it nature or nuture - the 'luck of the draw', genetic involvement. Who knows...?

The primary point I really agree with however, is there is a very big difference with those who fly for pleasure - even those who fly commerially (there are normally 2 of the on the flightdeck), than those who instruct for a living.

Whirlybirds comments strike a very valid chord there.

I would go on and elaborate my points, but am typing this on a very unresponsive android tablet, which is far too hard and taking far too long...

[Sir George Cayley]

On the other hand are the AAIB reports. I'd love to have the time to analyse them for the spread of ages involved in accidents now and say 20 years ago.

Certainly from a quick scan there seems to be an ageing profile.

SGC

[strake]

Interesting question. Maybe I can put a different slant on it...

I was living the dream. I owned my aircraft, a TB10, it was at an airfield close to me and whilst I was very busy flying commercially (as a passenger) all over the world during the week, I was able to do everything in my power to be home to the UK late Friday nights. I was single following a divorce and my time was my own. Saturday's were my 'France' day. 8am, fire up the mid-life Porsche and head to the airfield. The TB would be on the apron waiting for me. After a walk-round, off I went. ...SND, DVR then direct LFAC or Cap Gris Nez to LFAT. A nice lunch, a visit to the supermarket and back by 16:00.
Then, I did a trip down to Spain, a great experience. After that, it was like there was nothing else left to do. I had my IMC, I'd done aero's...I just became bored. With so many people desperate to become PPL's I know that is a terrible thing to admit but it's true. The aircraft spent more time sitting in the hanger and I thinking it would just rot away, I sold it. That was seven years ago and I haven't flown since. I don't regret a moment of the twenty three years or so I was flying or indeed the money I spent. However, last June, I was chatting to a chap who owns an aircraft near where I now live in France. He was exhorting me to start again. I went up for a flight with him in his Jodel and it was then that I realised my time had passed. I'm only 58 but I didn't feel comfortable..to be frank, I was apprehensive or, if you want to put it bluntly, scared. I don't know why, I really don't but I knew that to start flying again would be wrong because I couldn't be sure I would be able to handle things if they went awry.
So now? I go fishing in my boat...and I'm happy. There you are. That's my story and that's why I stepped down - gracefully.

[shortstripper]

And the you get someone like Neville Duke!

He flew up to and including the day he died. Felt unwell flying his wife but managed to get back to earth to drop her off before departing it himself forever!

He lived and left his flying and his life with the utmost grace ... What an example to us all!

SS

[Pace]

strake

Your situation is different and can happen at 30 40 50 60 or whatever! If you loose that pleasure from flying or have achieved what you want and it all becomes a chore then chuck it in.

We all go through the roller coaster of that! Often you have a bad string of flights or boring flights and wonder what the heck you are doing it all for!

Other times its all the hoops you have to jump through especially with all this new EASA rubbish and the expense and you think about where the pleasure is in doing it all and is it really worth all the grief?

Other times you get a fabulous flight and the enthusiasm kicks in again and off you go again.
But yes if the enthusiasm goes and does not come back then look for something else to light your fire.

flying is a demanding mistress all well and good when she is exciting and new! But when she becomes too demanding and the excitement wears off and it all becomes a chore fulfilling those demands without the excitement then find a new mistress :ok: or accept the one you have warts and all :E
Pace

[Radgirl]

Flying is not unique in needing to address the issues of an aging group of participants. We often hear of the problems of an aging population on healthcare systems, but less about the aging doctors. There is an increasing amount of research egged on by the fact that we havent enough doctors in the 1st world, and we cant afford to let them go due to age!

The evidence is that decision processing changes. Younger doctors make decisions based on many inputs with an output determined by a protocol. Older doctors use experience and need less inputs but often have a better output. Although the older doctors find it difficult to cope with night work, fatigue itself is of little importance.

As a result we believe there is scant evidence to stop older doctors working even at the cutting edge. Pilots have the added hurdle or check of needing a medical, and here again the evidence is that a 70 year old today is less likely to experience a sudden incapacitation than a 60 year old just 20 years ago. Flying is far more sedentary than many medical specialties.

So whilst I would never criticize anyone deciding to retire, I do have concerns at anecdotal comments about older people being somehow less safe.

[mary meagher]

Well, boys and girls, this is your Original Poster. Highly amused by the ruffled feathers of some of our macho machine drivers. And thankful for the good sense of others.

Radgirl of the Antipodes gets quite ruffled at "anecdotal comments about older people being somehow less safe".... She supports her argument by saying we shouldn't retire older doctors just because they find it difficult to cope with night work. O dear. There is a difference between doctoring and being a commercial pilot with 360 trusting bodies sitting in the back. Doctors usually only kill one patient at a time....

I had my wake up call on April 2, 2010, a stroke that knocked out part of the peripheral vision. Up to then I had still been instructing in gliders and flying the tow plane. I was only 77 years old at the time. Bummer. Absolute bummer. So no less of a macho oldie than our friend Pace, bet he's younger than me, too.

But I havn't quit flying altogether. I lecture, I act as launchpoint coordinator, and serve on various committees, and recruit new members for the gliding club. And whenever I can snaffle a qualified instructor willing to suffer in the student's front seat, I still mess around in a K13....locally, to be sure, and only in weather that does not exceed my personal limits!

There you go. Just remember to keep taking the pills.....

[Pace]

Mary

Radgirl posts excellent advice and information in the medical section :ok: So her opinions and knowledge are always respected :ok:

I still come back to the fact that the government expect people to work longer and keep on delaying the pension age to later and later ages with the argument that nowadays people are healthier and live longer with a higher quality of life.
As such they are expected to work and generate an income far later ?

If a pilot still wants to fly and still passes medicals and still performs up to standard in simulator testing then I see no reason why they should not fly?

if the government want to treat pilots as special cases and allow them to take a state pension at 60 then thats a different matter but why single them out as too old compared to other people? That is discrimination.

I would also like to see statistical evidence that older pilots are collapsing at the controls more than those in their late 40s early fifties ( the highest heart attack era ?)

So no less of a macho oldie than our friend Pace, bet he's younger than me, too.

I was only 77 years old at the time.

Mary Love the ONLY bit :ok: if I am still flying when I reach the ripe old age that you were still instructing at I would be more than happy. You surely are a good example of my argument :E You were still instructing at 77!!! :ok: following your argument you would have chucked it in 17 years earlier at 60 which is nearer my age :E

Pace

[flybymike]

I think it was Ken Wallis who, when well into his nineties, was interviewed by a journalist about his career, and was asked during the interview how long it had been since he had last piloted an aircraft.

"Oh, it's been quite some time now" Ken replied.

Then glancing at his watch said, "About ten thirty this morning I think......"

[dubbleyew eight]

we all age differently and that is the rub. if your genes are of the type to keep you active in old age then stay active.

there was a photo in a National Geographic I saw in the doctors once. it was just a woman at a service station putting petrol in the tank of her Toyota.
the caption read " this photo would be totally unremarkable except for the fact that the woman in the photo is 114 years old."

if you can then do.

I also worked on a ward once where the nurse in charge pulled me aside.
she asked me to give the old guy in the end bed a little extra care. he was losing his marbles.
"ten years ago he was the brilliant doctor who ran this ward".

I'm still aiming to be active at 100.

[mary meagher]

flybymike, I've heard that one, but it was a slightly different version.

Pilot goes in to see his GP to have his medical signed off. After going over his records, the GP enquires delicately about his current level of sexual activity.

Doctor: "Now, Eric, when did you last have sexual intercourse?"

Eric: "Well, that would have been about Nineteen fifty-two..."

Doctor: (trying not to show astonishment} "That was quite a while ago...."

Eric, (looking at his watch) "Not really. Its only twenty-one fourteen now..."

......this joke, like me, is a relic from the previous century.

[fireflybob]

It all depends on the individual.

At my local airfield we have a spritely 90 year old who is still flying on his NPPL - I would happily be his passenger anytime.

My father, a veteran instructor, was still examining when he was 81 years and had all his faculties with much sage advice to pass on.

I read quite a few classic stereotypes about "old age" on this thread. Feature on news about pensions a while ago and they show folks walking with Zimmer frames!

Latest research shows dementia and type 2 diabetes go together and can be prevented and even reversed by correct nutrition - read "Grain Brain" by David Perlmutter.

It's a tough call I agree though. Although I have no health issues I decided to quit my last airline job when I was 62 years (I still do some light aircraft flying) since I thought it preferable to do so when "winning"!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Regarding receding pension age, that's more to do with early pensions being no longer affordable (state or private) than any increased longevity, though increased longevity is one reason they are no longer affordable as early!

That folk might stay healthier longer is good in itself, but the reasons for later pensions are entirely economic!

[Whirlybird]

Lots of interesting comments, many anecdotes on flyers in their 70s, 80s, and 90s, a few posters who seem to be in terror at the mere idea of old age, and even an accusation of ageism for discussing this issue. But.....

I'm not sure anyone has answered Mary's core question, which seems to me to be how do you decide when the time comes to step down gracefully from flying due to AGE and the inevitable decline in sharpness that comes with old age? Or do you just wait until the medics give you the chop?

The precise age we're talking about is irrelevant. Maybe in your own case you can go on till you're about 120 years old. Or maybe you can't. But how do you know? Would you know? And we're talking about single pilot operations such as private flying, with no-one else around to notice or help. Would the medics even recognise a marginal decrease in the ability to cope with, for instance, an emergency such as a failure of something crucial in bad weather? (apologies to Radgirl for even suggesting this :) )

I'm only asking....

[Rocket2]

Keep faith oh wrinkley ones - last Saturday I sent a 78 year old solo for the first time (in a a glider) in 60 years, yes he took a while longer than the current batch of 14 year old wannabees to get things right, it was a perfect day, flat calm & clear with no-one else in the circuit but heck that gent had more determination than most of us put together & is still smiling (& so am I!)

[Pace]

W

Answering Marys core question is in Marys answer?

She was still instructing at the ripe age of 77 and gave up when her health deteriorated due to a stroke.

Fair dues to Mary she still takes an active interest by imparting her knowledge on the ground and helping around the club as well as flying with an instructor.

Most people know when to quit! Either they no longer want to fly or they know their health is not as good as it should be which usually goes back to not wanting to fly.

There are probably a small minority who refuse to acknowledge their lack of health or declining abilities but usually others do notice.
they still have to pass a medical and maybe over 70 should have more tests or slightly different flight tests as maybe should car drivers.

with commercial pilots any decline in performance would easily be picked up under pressure and mental loading in a simulator

Pace

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

One pilot-author I read decided it was time to stop after a Tiger Moth flight. He'd started it on the mag with the impulse on it as one should, but only after landing did he discover he'd forgotten to turn on the other mag, and had conducted the entire flight on one mag.

I'm 'between aeroplanes' at the moment and might or might not re-start flying. I did my PPL in 1978 and had a whale of a time in the late 70s, the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s. But then the Chipmunk group moved to Liverpool, much further away from where I live. For a few years I put up with the extra travelling and hassle this involved... the final nail in the coffin for that group for me was when the John Lennon Airport got all serious about security and put up electronic gates which only an airside pass (obtainable at great cost) would open. Or you could perhaps persuade flying school staff to sign you in under their pass (legal but a right pain, especially if you need to get back out to your car again, then back in).

When we used to be Barton based one could pitch up at the airfield and sniff the air. If flight looked a possibility, one could wheel out the Chippy and go do a circuit. If it still looked OK from the air, one went flying. If not happy with it, one landed and went for a cuppa in the clubhouse to talk flying tales with other frustrated aviators in there.

At John Lennon one had to book out with a zone exit point so one didn't get airborne unless there was a good chance one would be happy to at least fly as far as that point after take off. One had read the TAFs, checked the wx at home 40 miles away, and driven 40 miles to the airfield. More often than not the wx wasn't good enough (vis or xwind on the single runway being common bars to flight in our strictly VFR aeroplane).

Then, one would often discover the aeroplane hadn't been fuelled, despite being pulled out of the hangar in the morning by flying school staff. Getting fuel was a time consuming excercise which could take longer than the planned flight!

One day, as I yet again tried to find someone to let me out to my car, and yet to face the refuelling hassle, and the wx marginal anyway, I thought 'sod this. It's costing me money and the hassle factor is beginning to outweigh the fun'. Then someone sent me an email offering to buy my share; this a couple of years ago at a time of economic depression when shares in fun aeroplanes were hard to sell and several group members had being trying to sell for months or years. So I sold. had my last P1 flight 2 years ago.

In the end what did it for me was the excess of hassle and the increasing cost of the long drive to Liverpool and back with the uncertainty of flight. The one good thing about operating from John Lennon was ATC - they were excellent at handling small aeroplanes among the commercial traffic.

However, after the free and easy Barton days, it was as if flying for fun had no place in aviation any more and it was being discouraged in every possible way.

Oh, and unlike Barton if one didn't fly there was no clubhouse full of aviators to go to instead as compensation. One simply went home, dejected. And it seems no better at Barton these days. We called in there one bank holiday last year (on the motorbikes which have largely replaced aeroplanes in my life) and there was almost nothing flying whereas 10 years earlier it would have been vibrant with flyers, aeroplanes, aeroplane fettling... Even the cubhouse which would have been full of flyers planning flights with charts on the tables, instructors briefing and de-briefing students was instead silent with a few OAPs slowly munching a roast beef lunch. Not a whiff of aviation anywhere in the air.

Do I miss it? Well, not as much as I thought I would. I had 30+ years of taildragging, stripping, aeros, and pure flying fun in very many aeroplanes from Cubs to Yaks. But if anyone knows of a Cub on a farm strip with share going, not too far from East Cheshire, please let me know!

[mary meagher]

Pace, the last line in your post is open to question. You say

"With commercial pilots any decline in performance would easily be picked up under pressure and mental loading in a simulator....!"

Then WHY do I read that the bean counters are cutting down on the simulator sessions, that these sessions fail to cover some of the most important items such as recovering from a stall at 38,000 feet over the Atlantic Ocean, etc etc
and that first officers are still too deferential in certain cultures?

How many simulator sessions does the average flight instructor in light aircraft afford a year? I bet not many. Gliding instructors in the UK are tested at least once a year in a real life session with our CFI (Chief Flying Instructor in UK parlance). How is the hard working professional flight instructor monitored these days?

How often are you monitored, Pace? fess up!

I still think it is up to each pilot with the responsibility of somebody's life in their hands to realise when it is the only decent thing to step down. Just as it still is my responsibility to speak up when I observe something happening that could cause an accident...even if the Pilot In Charge of the Flight thinks I'm a pain in the butt.

[Pace]

Mary

Remember I am an ATP with a current type rating so have to be tested every year in the sim.

Take my word everything is thrown at you in the sim and any signs of dementia or slowing up would show up!
i also fly a multi crew jet with another commercial pilot as an FO.
Part of that relationship is monitoring i.e. the younger FO is checking all that I do and visa versa

There was a well documented airline crash where the Captain was out of the cockpit and his YOUNG co pilot failed to identify a stall and took the wrong actions but this was a young guy not some demented old relic.

Here you get onto my pet subject which is the modern training directed at recovery from anything at the incipient stage and the churning out of aircraft drivers rather than handling pilots but we have done that one to death :)

But I find it hard to understand why you want 60 year old pilots to chuck in the towel when you yourself were still instructing at 77 years of age? That I admire!

I would be all for pilots over 70 having special flight tests every 6 months or a year to check they are up to speed especially regarding reactions and ability to pick up their game under pressure.

Pace

[Whirlybird]

Pace,

I think this thread is basically about single pilot operations, particularly PPLs and instructors. Commercial operations are a different issue. And nowhere have I read that Mary -or anyone else for that matter - suggested that all pilots "chuck in the towel" at age 60

[Pace]

How often are you monitored, Pace? fess up!

I answered Marys question ;) Remember too light jets come under GA private and some are flown single pilot by luckier owners i.e. the CJ so private GA is not just the Piper cub in a field.

oversight is not so prevalent in piston singles but I would support the idea of pilots over 70 having special tests.

if not 60! what is classified as old or older pilots who need to step down?

Pace

[Whirlybird]

If not 60! what is classified as old or older pilots who need to step down?

Nobody suggested any specific age. Nobody is classifying anyone. Mary asked how do you decide when the time comes to step down gracefully from flying due to AGE and the inevitable decline in sharpness that comes with old age? Or do you just wait until the medics give you the chop?

Where does 60 come into this? :confused::confused::confused::confused: The whole point is that people age at different rates. Have you actually read the thread?

i

[Piper.Classique]

I would be all for pilots over 70 having special flight tests every 6 months or a year to check they are up to speed especially regarding reactions and ability to pick up their game under pressure.

Ah, but will you still feel that way when you are 69?

[pulse1]

In my view, the simple answer to the OP original question is - as a 74 year old, I will go on flying as long as I can and as long as I want to.

Like most pilots I know I am intensely self critical about my flying and I know that, when I don't do well in my own eyes, I do not enjoy it. Too many of those flights and I will stop. In the last couple of Winters I am aware that there are more days when I cannot be bothered to get the aircraft out because I feel the cold more than I did.

I frequently ask fellow pilots this question and, so far, everyone encourages me to go on as if it is ridiculous for me even to think about giving up. Some of them I fly with fairly often and they seem happy to fly with me.

I once thought that I would give up when I found myself making mistakes but then I realised that I have always made mistakes. Perhaps, if those mistakes become more serious, like flying with one mag switched off, I will give up.

Having operated with a NPPL for the last few years, my doctor has said that he wants to see me before he will sign another Declaration so it may be, in a couple of months, that he will put a stop to my flying.

Having given up flying for 23 years because of cost and family commitments, I am reluctant to stop again with out good reason.

[alphamikeecho]

As others have said, we all age at different rates.

For some of us the long history of commercial operations, followed by a retirement to general flying and instructing. With that experience you are probably safer than a lowish hours younger PPL. But as the ageing process catches up with some of us quicker than others.

I'm aware of a situation with someone who had an excellent run of committing aviation but unfortunately their memory started to deteriorate but yet no one told them this.

Except one year they went to a different AME who did a check on their memory and found that it wasn't 100%. (A mini mental state exam) The AME had come across them in social situations outwith the medical and knew that their memory was beginning to fail them. As it turned out they were diagnosed with cognitive impairment an early sign of dementia. Due to their baseline intelligence being superior to most, you may not have noticed unless you knew them well. The patient themselves was not aware that this was the case as they didn't see the problem and no one had ever pointed it out, even though all the locals knew there was a problem with their memory.

So sometimes we don't always know it's time to hang up our headset!

And maybe the other moral of the story is go to an AME you don't know socially!

[kestrel539]

At the ripe old age of 62, it is my intention to stop instructing at 65, and stop
flying at 70.
This is based mainly on observation at gliding clubs worldwide......but I may feel differently when those ages get nearer.
However, I have told my wife about this , so I dont suppose I will be allowed
to change my mind.

[Radgirl]

Whirlybird is quite right to bring us back to the initial question. I agree that annual or biannual medicals do not adequately assess age or determine the time to stop. They merely eliminate pilots who have specific pathologies.

Having spent decades watching my colleagues age with varying effects, insight and outcome, I remain convinced that you cannot rely on the individual concerned. I believe that close colleagues almost always notice the deterioration and are aware of decreasing safety, but rarely raise concerns out of a misplaced sense of loyalty.

A number of organisations have suggested that with increasing age there is a need for a short certificate signed by a colleague confirming that the individual is not unduly impaired by age. The frequency of certification increases with age.

This is far from easy. Definition is difficult. We have to change perceptions so people feel they are helping and not letting colleagues down. In flying there is the issue of pilots flying alone, but I suspect that many of us have seen ageing pilots on the ground who obviously find things more difficult.

So perhaps the response to OP is to ask your fellow pilots if they think you are safe, invite them to fly with you from time to time, and not to be frightened to be open and ask them if they think you are past it

[Pace]

Radgirl

But still that beggars the question of what is considered old ? The airlines require one of the crew needs to be less than 60 if one is over 60 and 65 is the line!
Obviously we all age differently depending on a number of factors genetics being one but on average what age do we consider a pilot to be old?
Even what would be determined as senility by a layman in an older person could be stress, problems at home or even medication! Being scatty, vacant away with the fairies is not just displayed in older people but young ones too and stress induced!
I had big concerns over a pilot friend who was 70 and became forgetful very quickly he then returned to normal blaming statins he had started taking!
Really we come back to medical sand medical diagnosis and not an untrained opinion given by one individual pilot colleague!
On top of that some basic reaction problem solving tests over 70 might help
I would also like to know what statistical evidence backs the age limits imposed on commercial pilots and whether these limits are based on demonstrated threat to safety or perceived threat ?

Pace

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Pace;


I intend to carry on flying my own aircraft after retirement, as long as I can, but I will probably put myself through a six monthly rather than bi-annual assessment,(much as I put up with now) I agree with you that if a commercial pilot can pass his medical and OPC's then he should be allowed to carry on, but EASA don't. About 40% of my flying is SPIFR in rotary and EASA say that stops at 60. They were challenged though the European courts by Uncle Ian of the Rotor Heads forum of PPRune, with some funding by PPRune members but lost. I'm not sure there is anybody with the financial cojones to have another go, but will keep watching.


SND

[Whirlybird]

Pace,

But still that beggars the question of what is considered old ?

This is a completely separate and different issue. Could I suggest you start another thread on age and the rules of commercial flying.

On top of that some basic reaction problem solving tests over 70 might help

And what is your evidence for this being needed at a particular age, ie 70? You don't like 60, you don't like 65, but 70, now that's OK for tests, because that's really old; is that your thinking? :)

Either we accept that people all age at different rates, or we assume - as happens now in commercial/airline flying - that beyond 60 it's safer to get rid of them. The latter attitude is, as far as I can ascertain, based on.....very, very little in the way of medical evidence. But either way, this is a different issue from what we've been discussing here. Now I know this is PPRuNe and I'm not a mod and it's not up to me, but it seems a shame to let an interesting discussion drift over into an 'age and flying for the airlines' issue which has been discussed ad infinitum on here over the years I've been around on PPRuNe - too many, before anyone else says it. :)

[dubbleyew eight]

doctors do get retired.
Jag Singh was my DAME for years and he was the sharpest most observant doctor I have known.
He was retired as too old.

I still think his retirement was crazy. He is still sharper than most of the young doctors I've seen.

[Pace]

Whirlybird

Threads often and in fact usually drift and come back (read some)
The question was about when to retire gracefully from flying due to age?
I would have thought that both are related and not far from the original question!
Ok I fly private jets and I am paid for it but as stated wealthy pilots may own and fly a CJ1 as much a private owner and pilot as one who owns a PA28

Obviously the regulations are different between AOC and private flights but I fly private

As for picking an age ? If not why 70 or 65 why not go the other way 50 or 45 ?
I know a few knackered burnt out 45 year olds too
Dementia is not only for the over 70s as some people of 50 develop it so I would think that the answer is pretty simple
Fly as long as you want to as long as you pass your medical sand flight checks as simple as that

Pace

[mary meagher]

Radgirl, wise words indeed! She points out "you cannot rely on the individual concerned!....close colleagues almost always notice...but rarely raise concerns out of a misplaced sense of loyalty!"

The nail hit on the head, squarely! Alpha mike echo in post 46 gives a very pertinent example....an aging pilot who went to a different AME for his annual who was shrewd enough to discover it...."the patient was not aware....didn't see the problem....no one had ever pointed it out!"

So there is a problem, as shown in this very thread by the old farts who are going to keep on flying until they themselves make the judgement call! Too often in private aviation, one is rather isolated in one's own private aircraft.
Driving to the airfield in your beamer, gallivanting off to the South of France, how often are your chums (if any!) getting a chance to observe your decline?

[Pace]

Mary

With all due respects to you as I know you have put a lot into aviation and still do! You are a shining light but not for the argument you appear to be making and I am not sure what that argument is?
You were instructing at the age of 77 and gave up after sadly having a stroke?
Aviation is not my only pastime I love Scuba diving and underwater photography and art so I very much doubt I will ever be flying when I reach 77 if I am still here by then!
If I found a serious problem medically that would be it!
Most people are sensible and have a duty to their loved ones not to kill themselves!
My son flies for EasyJet! Do you think he would be happy with me flying if he thought I was going GA GA ?
The obsessed care less types are few and far between and would soon be picked out by others in the aviation world as not being up to it!

Remember yourself instructing at 77 fantastic !!! The world champion base jumper 62 yrs of age and as you put it an old fart beating guys of 30
Extreme sports for old farts YES YES YES or you really will become an old fart way before time / there is plenty of time to be dead but not plenty of time on this earth!

Pace

[dubbleyew eight]

mary the reality is that if you are passionately involved in something you love doing you generally dont decline. ....well no where near as fast.

I once had a bunch of women on the airfield complaining bitterly about their hubby's being interested in aviation.
I pointed to a group of old pilots and asked how old they were.

when I pointed out that the guesses were about 20 years too young I asked them if they'd like their hubby's to be as active as that at the age.

for some odd reason the complaining stopped.

a lot of people age at the rate they expect to and not at the rate their bodies are actually ageing. keep on flying for as long as you want.

[mary meagher]

F900 Ex, thank you for your comment....the decision was in fact made for me by the doctors as the stroke was a consequence of an operation on a dodgy knee (got trapped between two yachts on the Solent ten years before).

Otherwise it is very likely as I was instructing in a gliding club, that the Chief Flying Instructor would have been told by other members that the old woman was starting to lose it, and he would have had a quiet word. Clearly the brain is still working to an acceptable standard, and as mentioned before, women last longer than men. In a club environment the gossip gets round so a pilot with a problem is more likely to get noticed.

The knee, I am pleased to report, works beautifully.

[Silvaire1]

Just a quick comment, but I think family and friends are best placed to 'suggest' that flying might need to end. I've seen it happen pretty effectively, in one case involving a Stanley knife and fabric on the primary aircraft being flown. I don't personally think the aviation medical requirement adds anything of value to this issue for private pilots.

[Pace]

Mary

I feel i have rattled your cage somewhat? If so I apologise to you! I have always admired people who live their life and do not see age as a barrier.
People like the World champion base jumper at 62 quite a feat?
I have the same feelings with your postings someone still instructing at 77, forced out by a stroke but even so still actively involved with their passion albeit in a slightly different role.
I would have expected an opposite post from you so was rather surprised with this one.
Anyway my apologies if you have been upset at my defence of following your passion regardless of age but I cannot change that view.

Pace

[rotorfossil]

After more than 50 years in the instructing and examining business, the following observations of myself and others may be of interest. With advancing age, acquiring new physical and co-ordinative skills does take longer. Not a great problem if you accept it. I started skydiving in my 50's. Your handling skills also degrade, but to some extent are replaced by experience if you maintain regular practice, until I suspect they just fall off a cliff when it is definitely time to quit. Lastly, but probably most important is the progressive degradation of situational awareness, or the ability to keep track of and interpret a fast moving, complex or unexpected situation. On the ground, we just take things a bit more slowly but in the air this isn't always an option. Anyway the signs have told me it's time to quit as an FIE and FIC, but I will instruct for bit longer