Flying Harvards

[Tiger_ Moth]

I wont be flying these for years but I have some questions:
1) Who sits in the front? If you fly solo you are in the front arent you?
2) Does anyone know of anywhere where you can fly them moderately cheaply? I was told theyd be about £200-£500 per hour depending on various things (ie if you know the owner or something) but so far I have only found some place that has it for £500 an hour
3)Are they hard to fly? How long might it take to convert given that I might have 100hours on Tiger Moths?

[Zlin526]

Tiger,

In answer to your questions:

1) P.1 sits in the front, and yes it is flown solo from the front seat.
2) Not sure about the going rate these days.
3? If you've got 100hrs on a Tiger Moth, and are a current tailwheel pilot, then you should have no problem converting to the T6, given a good instructor..

Have fun, I certainly did!

[pittss2b]

There's a Harvard for training not far from our place...near Steinbach, Manitoba, Canada for $400/hour Canadian funds.

Adam
http://www.harvsair.com

[BRL]

There is one down here at Shoreham EGKA It has a website too. I will look for it later or you can do a search on Shoreham airport and i think there is a link to it on there. Good luck flying it. :)

Warbirds website. (http://www.warbirdflying.com)

[paulo]

Warbird Adventures at Kissimmee, FL has three. $500 per hour. You fly from the front.

I caught my aeros habit there. Little did I know that $250 half hour was the tip of the iceberg...:rolleyes: :)

[Wunper]

If you are in Florida beat a path to these guys at Kissimmee

They are superb value for money , I needed surgery to have the smile removed from my face after a trip with them!:D :D


http://www.warbirdadventures.com/


wunper

[Evo7]

There are two in the hangar at Goodwood. Never seen either of them flying (although I've seen the Shoreham one come visit :) ), and I think the CofA has lapsed on at least one.

[Ella]

I also had the smile surgically removed after 45 mins (should have been 30) in the Kissimmee T6.

Having time on the Tiger, Stampe, Chipmunk and a ride in the YaK 52 you will find the T6 a 'Chunky Chipmunk'. It's big and beefy, but handles just as sweetly as the Chippy.

Save yourself £300 an hour and get a Chipmunk conversion instead.

Have fun.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

..... or save not quite so much and get a Yak 52 conversion. Harvard performance (or better) with much sharper handling than even the lovely Chippy.

Not flown a Harvard so I don't know how its handling compares to the '52. But I'd be surprised if it's as good.

SSD

[farrenfour]

G'luck on the Harvard, but if you have 100hrs+ on the Dh82a's then you may need some phsyce help :), along with finding the harvard soooo responsive and no major problem in comparison.

F4
"whoops , it's never done that before?"

[Tiger_ Moth]

The idea of flying Harvards was partly to do with getting time on fairly powerful vintage machines which might take part at air shows so that I might be able to fly it in one after a while and eventually move onto other vintage planes because unless you;ve got time on machines like harvards no one would ever think of allowing you to display their aircraft. People who fly spitfires have to learn on other machines like harvards which is what they used in the war before they converted onto type. For example if your company had a share in a spitfire then who would you be looking for as potential pilots for it: someone with 500 hrs on a cessnas or someone with time on Tiger Moths and Harvards?

Its very unlikely that I'd ever get to fly a spitfire but harvards are a good plane to fly to make it more likely and chipmunks and yaks would not benefit you in the same way.

However chipmunks and yaks are very good suggestions. I know chipmunks could be around £130 an hour, I think there's one at Liverpool and another at Booker for about that, but how much is a Yak 52?

[MLS-12D]

I think that the Harvard referred to by Adam is CF-UAT, which is a Harvard IV built in 1952 and currently owned by Mac-Ann Farms Inc., Box 98, Ochre River, Manitoba R0L 1K0.

[Prof Denzil Dexter]

Oi Tiger Moth, there IS a queue old chap you know!

(Unless of course you're a recently retired RAF FJ pilot with very little time on tailwheel aeroplanes, in which case you can collect £200, pass GO and step into any vintage warbird with a big engine with the minimum of conversion, if you know the right people, wink,wink.)

[ChrisVJ]

Mr Moth,

I think most of the people who became Spitfire pilots went from Tigers to Spits, usually at about 30 hrs and many joined squadrons after about 10 hours on the Spitfire or Hurricane.

Had two fathers go that route.

Harvards were US planes and I never saw one in UK even after the war.

Talking of the Warbird Museum at Kissimmee, I was there last year. Many great planes in varying states of decrepitude as well as some interesting rebuilds. Visit somewhat spoiled by a guide who insisted that Vampires were famous for tipping over V1 flying bombs. (No I was not a smart Alec who argued in front of his customers but I did send them a polite email when I got home.)

[FNG]

The Thread That Would Not Die, 2....

but, seeing as it's come back, happy new year Tiger Moth and please update us on your commendable efforts to acquire a PPL on a DH 82. I didn't do any Tiger Moth flying at all last year, but might try to get back into it this year. It's not that I particularly like the aircraft, but I find it spiritually improving in a sort of cold shower, 5 am cross country run sort of way.

As for the comment above re WW2 training, I recall various pilot memoirs mentioning spending time on Harvards en route to front line aircraft, albeit later in the war, and sometines in Canada. I think that only the Brits and Canadians called it a Harvard. Didn't the Americans call their versions Texans? The memoirs also reveal that apart from the desperate times in 1940 (when the two dads mentioned above may have made their transitions) the training hours flown by many of the pilots before they got to squadrons were a bit higher than is generally thought. The system seems to have worked to its own peculiar logic in the deployment of what would now be called its human resources.

For example, Pierre Clostermann, a fully qualified pilot when France fell, was made to do lots of training and wait until 1942 before being let lose on the enemy. Last year I flew with a wonderful man who qualified as a pilot very early in the war but didn't get to the sharp end until early in 1944 (he more than made up for the long wait by flying well over 100 Typoon ops thereafter, collecting a DFC on the way).

[stiknruda]

FNG - you do make me laugh! I'm envisaging The Thread That Would Not Die, 3....

"How many hours on Spitfires (cheaply) before I can fly the Space Shuttle from my mate's farmstrip?"

G - Let's get together this summer and fly (not S&L)!

TigerM - if you are really interested there are a few Harvards/SNJs/Texans in E Anglia but cheaper access would be in RSA. My neighbour has one but it is thirsty, noisy and v fugly. another chap I know also has one but personally I wouldn't go near it. You could of course do a search on G-INFO and write to all owners and see if you can blag some time, it always works for tkf!!

Stik

[Lowtimer]

TM,
The Yak is a great advanced trainer - there's one available for commercial instruction at Skytrace, at Wolverhampton Spaceport. Another great advanced trainer, somewhat more widely available, is the Pitts S-2, which is about as different from a Tiger Moth as it is possible for another two-seat single-engine biplane to be. It's not far from Cambridge to Sywell where Northants School of Flying has one. Any owner of an under-utilised Spitfire would, I guess, look at someone with mastery of both Pitts and Yak as having at least an element of potential. And a Pitts hour and Yak hour together cost about the same as a single Harvard hour.
Air forces are very choosy about their pilot candidates (even in 1940) and don't mind washing out lots of them. In civilian flying everyone who can be trained to fly safely has the opportunity if they can find the cash and motivation, even if it takes longer with a steadier rate of progress.
But if you've only flown the Tiger don't overlook the benefits of broadening your experience with other types even if they appear less exotic. Learning in stages is a lot easier rather than lump it all together at once - less risk of "swamping". If you go straight from Moth to T-6, you would miss out on the experience of all the shades in between and may find it a lot more intimidating than it need be. You might also miss out on a lot of fun.
Having gone Warrior - Archer - Arrow - Yak in the nosewheel world, and Chipmunk - Super Cub - Pitts - Moth in the taildragger world, each transition has helped the next. I'm _very_ glad that I did some training on the Arrow becoming accustomed to CS prop and retractable gear in a familiar environment before I converted to the Yak. I'm also very glad that I refreshed my tailwheel experience with the Cub before trying the Pitts. And no, I am not yet its master, not by long chalk!

[Evo]

Air forces are very choosy about their pilot candidates (even in 1940) and don't mind washing out lots of them.


Indeed - my grandfather was rejected twice by the RAF in 1939/40, despite having a pilots licence and a fair few hours thanks to the Oxford UAS. He first applied to be a pilot and then a second time to be a navigator and was rejected on health grounds both times (he then joined the Army who were perfectly happy to have him).

[Tiger_ Moth]

Bit odd this thread leaping into life again, I'd completely forgotten about it...

I've got about 30 hours now and am at the stage where if the weather was good I could do a short (40-50 nm round) navigation trip on my own, not landing away of course. Not flying much lately, but I did break my 2 months without flying a couple of weeks ago which was lucky - and fun. Also re-assuring as I was just as good as the last time I'd flown.
I'm in a much better position flying wise now than ever before because I'm in a gap year before university so I'm working full time so when the summer comes I'll be able to do loads of flying instead of scraping along like before and not booking enough lessons because if I did get to fly each time ~I couldnt afford it.

About this harvard business: I had thought that nearly all WW2 RAF pilots flew the harvard (or equivalent) after the Tiger Moth, I certainly didnt think they would go straight from Moth to operational type, especially not at 30 hours. It seems like it probably varied a lot, but I read a really good book called First Light by Geoffrey Wellum who learnt ot fly just as WW2 started and then fought in the Battle of Britain. He had about 40 hours on Moths before going onto Harvards to do his advanced training and probably had at least 100 hours before he got near a spitfire. The book gave the impression that the Harvard was the RAFs standard advanced trainer and I swear I've seen this in loads of other places too, but I can't remember where.
ChrisVJ, are you sure that most pilots went right from tigers to spits after only 30 hours because Ive always thought, through reading loads about the period that they'd have closer to 100 hours by the time they got to spit/hurricanes and that they would have had an advanced trainer. Are u sure 30hours then onto spits was the norm?

See where you're coming from lowtimer. The main reason I might fly say a chipmunk or pitts ( which i like the look of by the way, and what are it's rates?) before a harvard is money. Having said that I do see the sense of flying a less advanced type first because it would mean I might get 2 or 3 times the hours I'd have got if it had been an advanced type. But if I were a millionaire I would go straight onto the harvard after the Moth. Then get myself a spitfire! Anyway, didnt esperto do his first solo on a Harvard?

[FNG]

T_M, you first-soloed the Tiger! Well done ! Your achievement is doubly worthy of celebration, first because they are hard b*ggers to land right, and secondly because by determinedly training on one you have kept alive an ancient tradition. Arrange one of your navexes to be Cambridge-Waltham one fine day this spring and I'll take you upside down in my Cap 10 if you're interested.

Stik: is your farm strip long enough for us to buy that tatty old Vulcan that's up for sale? If we haggle they might throw in a couple of nukes. At a mere 1000 man hours of maintenance per flying hour, it's got to be the way forward for recreational flying.

[FlyingForFun]

T_M, you first-soloed the Tiger! Well done ! Your achievement is doubly worthy of celebrationAnd tripply-so, in fact, because all those people on this forum who put you down for being stupid enough to want to learn on the Moth have been put in their place! Well done!

FFF
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[Tiger_ Moth]

Thanks for your kind posts.
I'd like a trip in your plane FNG but I doubt my navexes will take me to White Waltham: Luton and Stanstead in the way, my instructors will probably insist on a less cluttered north westerly trip. Maybe if I get a car I could drive down there some day though, very kind of you to offer.

Can anyone clarify this mystery over how much training WW2 pilots did? Surely 30 hours on Tigers then straight onto spits couldn't have been normal. And the RAF did use lots of Harvards didn't they?

Lowtimer: I think you sent me a private message but it hasn't arrived/doesn't work or something.

[T_richard]

Ahh excuse me I have a question!
I have been reading about these Harvards and checking the web sites you all have linked to this thread. I never knew one could go up in a plane with an instructor and actually take the controls for a moment or two. Are there other planes I could do this in or do I need to go to FL to this place in Kissmee (sp). I would love to learn what it feels like to fly a plane, I don't ever expect to have the time to get a pvt. license but I'd love to know what it feels like. Anyone care to offer some free advice.

[FlyingForFun]

T_Richard,

If you want to take the controls of an aircraft, you can do that at just about any flying school. What you're looking for is a "trial lesson" or "trial flight". It'll probably include either 30 or 60 minutes of flying something like a PA28, C152 or C172, together with about 30 minutes on the ground with the instructor before you go. Just pop down to your local airfield and ask around, or look in the Yellow Pages. There's no obligation to take things any further. One word of caution, though - many people have done this, not intending to take it any further than the trial lesson, have become instantly hooked, and have found the time and money which they didn't think they had to go on and get the license!

On the other hand, if you're looking to fly an old or interesting aircraft like the Harvard, you'll need to look a bit further. These flights are normally billed as lessons, they have the same legal status as a lesson, and the instructor will have the same qualifications as the instructor at your local flight school. But you might find it's slightly less hands-on than a genuine trial lesson - that's because it's aimed more as a birthday present for grandad than as a sample to get you hooked. This is, of course, a generalisation, but if you want hands-on flying and an interesting aircraft, then make sure your instructor knows that before you take off.

Have fun!

FFF
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[T_richard]

Thanks FFF,

It is probably a coincidence that there are three small airports within 40 miles of me that have teaching programs. I'll have to take my chances I guess. Just what I need another inexpensive avocation; (I own a 35' sailboat, a major cash drain) Ah well life is short

Cheers:D

[MLS-12D]

FFF is quite correct. Most places that offer flights in expensive / rare / complex aircraft like the Harvard are not going to permit a customer to do any hands-on stuff except at altitude, but an instructor at a local flying school equipped with a simple airplane (Cessna 152, etc.) may well talk the customer through the takeoff and most of the circuit, taking control only on short final for the actual landing.

T_richard, what are you waiting for??!! :D

[White Shadow]

Just looked at my old RAF logbook, out of curiosity. It shows -

First solo on Tiger Moth after 10 hrs dual, then a total of 74 hrs, dual & solo, (x-countries, aerobatics, restarting-the-engine-in-flight, under-the-hood IF, night flying, formation flying, low-flying. All wonderful stuff for a 'teen-ager)

Then Service Flying Training School and 4hrs55m Harvard dual before first Harvard solo.

All yonks ago in S. Rhodesia (as was) where there was no weather, and the landscape seemed to go on for ever.

Ah

WS

[T_richard]

I am certifiable (nuts that is) I have a friend USN ret who has flown since the Wright brothers. He has hooked me up with a flight school for a trial flight. God, I hope I hate it or get airsick or struck by lightning. Otherwise I'm on the way to a PPL. I must be crazy.

[T6 BOY]

In reply to some of the questions about flying Harvards

Unfortunately the T6 at EGKA has now been sold and has gone to pastures new at EGFF.I was was fortunate to be able to check out on it in Summer of 2001 and managed to get 25 hours solo on it up to September 2002 when it sadly departed.It took about 4 hours to go solo.I've flown Super cubs J3s Citabrias Chipmunks Stampes Stearmans and various Pa28s in my PPL time.It was expensive £450 an hour but what the hell when an ordinary PPL gets the chance to fly something a little different.One thing for sure my bank balance went up when it was sold.It was interesting taking her to Sandown and meeting various old guys who would come up and talk about the last time they flew Harvards and what they went on to fly afterwards.

The two aircraft at EGHR which were mentioned,One a Harvard 2 is up for sale for around £70,000 so if anyone feels generous enough and the other one was a rare Navy SNJ owned by Dave Gilmour of Pink Floyd fame.I think this one has now departed

A Tiger Moth sounds very interesting but I believe the only two places anyone can hire one is the Tiger Club and Cambridge.Maybe someone knows different?

[FNG]

No rush, T_M, you could always drift down Walthamwards after you have your licence (which sounds like it should happen some time later this year), or we could meet up somewhere in between, such as Andrewsfield, which is a pleasant enough spot, particularly as I'm due for another aero-safari round the excellent airfields of East Anglia, something I haven't done for a while.


As for the enquiries re renting Tiger Moths, I think, although I'm not sure, that you can do this at Sywell as well as Headcorn and Cambridge (assuming you are looking to check out for solo hire). Otherwise you could try getting to know some of the numerous private Moth operators at places like Waltham and trade rides in their machines for rides in something interesting of your own.

[MLS-12D]

Hello Tiger Moth,

Done any Harvard flying yet?

[shortstripper]

Tigermoth ... well done on first soloing the Tigermoth. I take it you did it at the CFG? I did the same in 1990 when I converted from gliders.

Having learnt on the DH82a I have never found flying any taildragger a problem ( a challenge maybe, but not a problem ). With the background of starting on the Tigermoth and the experience you inevitably gain as you go along, each subsiquent type is pretty easy. I wouldn't want to go straight from Tigers to Spitfires though, as you'd never be prepared for the speed at which you cover the ground :uhoh: I believe most RAF pilots moved on from basic training on the DH82 to Miles Masters, Harvards, ect, to learn more about complex types with CS props, retract undercats ect before ending up going off to fighter or bomber training.

IM

Does Bill Ison and Jock ( can't remember surname ) still teach there?

[MLS-12D]

The following is an extract from a local news item (http://www.bizniagara.com/you_dont_say/summer_2003.shtm) from Niagara Falls, Ontario:

Is that a Spitfire in your hanger?

What does a newly minted multimillionaire who successfully sued the Disney empire buy with his money? A vintage Second World War Spitfire airplane, that’s what 66-year-old architect Ed Russell, now living in Fonthill, did with $2.2 million of his lucre he shared in a (US) $240 million settlement he shared with businessman Nicholas Stracick, also from Fonthill.

The two men had their sports complex idea, appropriated by the Walt Disney Co. which, in turn, had asked a Florida appellate court to overturn the jury verdict that awarded them the money.

The Spitfire Mark IX was flown by the RAF’s 312 Squadron in the war, and is one of only 51 airworthy Spitfires still flying. Russell as yet doesn’t fly and will likely keep the classic fighter at the Welland Airport.

See further here (http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_778635.html?menu=), here (http://www.historicflying.com/news.htm), and here (http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/spitfiremk2a/my-history-mk912.html)

Isn't it nice to have money?! ;)

[MLS-12D]

More on Ed Russell's private air force (http://therussellgroupairshow.com/index.php?page=our_planes).

Nice to have money, indeed!

[D'vay]

T_M. Have you cashed in your CAP10 Flight yet? especially now that you have 100hrs DH-82a, aeros and...ahem...PA-28 time under your belt!
Regads
D'vay

[Tiger_ Moth]

Alright D'vay, you naer-do-well!

I had totally forgotten about this post, funny looking back at it!
I haven't cashed in my Cap10 offer, so now that I might actually learn to drive maybe I could get down there, with a printout of this thread as my "flight voucher"!

I suppose by the time I have enough money to go galavanting in Harvards I could talk to AB who will have done his course in the states by then.