A stupid thing about cessnas

[Tiger_ Moth]

I dont want to offend anyone but this just occured to me:
On planes like cessnas and pipers there are control columns which have 2 handles. Why? Shouldn't pilots keep one hand handy for the throttle? So whats the other handle about? Its not like its an airliner thats really heavy to handle is it? What about a good stick? This brings me onto my other point: as the throttle is in the middle it means someone has to use the hand they dont normally use for the control column, using their good hand for the throttle. Isnt this annoying?
What do you think?

[Ivchenko]

Tiger Moth

There was a thread recently about left / right hands, throttle and control column etc.

More knowleadgeable people than me will hopefully comment, but I think the two handed yoke came into being as heavier aircraft with manual controls needed more strength than could be applied through a control column with one hand. Many pilots of the pre and WWII era speak about how physically exhausting it could be wrestling a heavy through turbulence.

So what's it got to do with a Cessna, you ask? Well in the 1950s American GA manufacturers were trying to make the a/c as unintimidating, car like and friendly as possible (they described "Land- o matic" undercarriages). Clearly a yoke helped with that, also makes it easier to shuffle in sideways through a door onto a bench seat.

Good, that's the daily bull****ting itch scratched
;)

[WorkingHard]

Stick or Whell - what is the difference. In my view it is simply a matter of choice BUT consider from where the wheel emanates and you might consider the alternative of a single "spoke" would be inapropriate. I clock up several hundred hours per annum in a Cessna and love it.

[Whirlybird]

Tiger Moth,

I've flown aircraft with both a control column or a stick; it really hardly makes any difference. Using your left hand on the yoke is not a problem either; in fact, as soon as you start going near controlloed airspace and getting squawks etc, it helps to have your right hand relatively free to write things down. Can't do that in a helicopter, unfortunately :(

[Tiger_ Moth]

Thanks for your replies.
Ivchenko: exactly! yokes were designed for heavy planes not little light aircraft. They have no business in small planes. Planes shouldnt be made "car-like" with wheels like cessnas, its good to learn to fly something well and not have something made really tame and car like.
By the way, does anyone know if the aerobatic cessna, the c150 aerobat has a stick or a yoke? Does anyone else think aerobatics with a yoke just seems odd?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Ivchenko:

If any pilot told you that they would be exhausted from wrestling a heavy through turbulence they were either.

( A ) Bull****..ing you

( B ) Lying about having flown one

( C ) or both of the above.

These stories seem to just go on and on and on.................

When in fact they are just pure Grade A Bullsh.t

Cat Driver:

.................

:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

[Ivchenko]

Hiya Cat Driver

Nice to hear from you again - although you've left my childhood dreams about square jawed heroes in tatters, and I feel bitter about all those hours doing pull ups in anticipation of moving up to a Cessna 172. All I ever wanted to do was wrestle with the controls, and now you say I can go back to being a limp wristed fairy:)

Go on then - give us a better story about why yokes replaced the columns of joy:rolleyes:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hi Ivchenko:

Damned if I know why they use the wheel to replace the stick.

I find a stick between my legs to be far easier to use, hell it is instinct.

As to difficulty in handling based on force required, all aircraft are designed so the stick or wheel force required to deflect the controls must fall within the norm of pilot strength.

We fly very, very long ferry flights in probably the heaviest control force airplane ever certified.

In turbulence you learn to anticipate the airplanes movements and use only the control force imput necessary to maintain the desired attitude.

A lot of pilots do over control and in very turbulent air and it is possible to become fatigued, however it is self induced.

Once you understand how to fly the thing it is a lot easier.

Very strong X / winds will on occasion compell me to use both hands on the wheel for a few moments to hold full aeliron, but it is very seldom.

Both hands on the stick is another matter.:D :D :D

Cat Driver:

.........
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

[Dimensional]

Yep, the Aerobat has a yoke. Not quite as bad as it seems, but sometimes not as nice as a stick. You actually need both handles sometimes, like when you're learning aileron rolls and the like, let go of the throttle and use both hands on the yoke, it goes right round to about thirty degrees past the vertical.

-D

[Whirlybird]

Ivchenko,

If you REALLYwant to wrestle with controls, try (simulated) hydraulic failure on a B206 helicopter. I complained violently when the instructor made me fly it with no hydraulics for about 20 minutes, and then come to a hover!!! :eek: He said if it was for real, it might take me that long to find somewhere to land safely, so I had to do it, and I was bigger than the Japanese student he'd had the week before, so to quit complaining. I went for a massage the next day to get rid of the aches in my shoulders; I kid you not.

So there's your answer. :D

[djk]

speaking as a cack-handed person it has no effect on me, I actually feel quite comfortable using a yoke although it does restrict legroom space in an already cramped cockpit

[john_tullamarine]

.. then again, those of us who learnt to fly on side by side seating Victa AirTourers ... are totally confused .. as the shared stick is in the middle and the throttle on the outside..

.. and some of the parts are off the dear old Victa lawnmower ..

[Final 3 Greens]

Tiger

Do you know the really stupid thing about those Cessna's?

Over 50,000 people these idiotic aircraft with yokes!

Now get real and consider what the average pilot wants and it ain't an open cockpit, "sporty" handling and a motor that vents oil like there's no tomorrow.

Cessna know their audience pretty well and thats why they fit yokes.

As to which hand to use, you'll find that it isnt really a problem. The bigger issue is trying to modify a LHS scan when flying from the RHS.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

John-T:

There are also those of us that have used the side controller in fly by wire that has no aerodynamic load feedback. Four knots feels just the same as four hundred.

Truth is you soon get used to any of the different control methods.

Even the helicopter controls can be easily learned.

What I find difficult is making a fu...ng excavator do what I want it to do.

Now there is a complex mother to get the hang of the controlls.:eek: :eek:

Cat Driver:

................
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

[unclearthur]

Wrestling with controls in a B 206, pah! You should try hydraulics out in a Scout. Never heard of anyone hovering one of those without the 800psi of servo assist.

No doubt about it though, helicopter pilots need to be left handed and fixed wing right handed. One of my old time instructors was ambi - whatever it is - lucky b****r. :)

[Awyrennwr]

One theory is; a yoke gives a more natural movment in the roll axis and a stick gives a more natural movment in the pitch axis. Solution - a yoke on top of a stick - used in several airliners.

I was taught by one instructor to use both hands on the yoke during the flare, it gives a lot of added control thus helps produce smoother touchdowns, so long as you are confident you can find the throttle quickly if you need to go around. This is a very handy technique with planes with a tendency to float, like the PA28 Warrior, wich can also be heavy in the flare.

[Whirlybird]

An instructor I know who's flown anything and everything in every country in the world for hundreds of years (OK, I know I'm prone to exaggeration, but you know what I mean :D ) told me you need to be ambidextrous in the long run. He told me to practise writing with my left hand, as the day would come when I'd be given too much info in a heli to be able to remember it all. And he said if I wanted to be a heli instructor, I'd have to learn to use the cyclic with my left hand, so I could change frequencies with my right. He said all it took was practice, and he meant it. So there's a challenge!

[Tiger_ Moth]

I've got a nice little debate going here!
I think it's true that you do get used to different configurations but I am still against yokes. Awyrennwr: if you had a stick you wouldnt have the debateof should I use both hands?
Isnt it easier to use a stick where you hold it in the centre than a wheel where you hold it offset to one side?
Final 3 greens: do you think the cessna is popular because people really like it? Some do but dont you think it has a lot to do with cost and easiness to fly and its use as a trainer?

It would be interesting to see the results of a vote for yokes or sticks. I think sticks would win. Is there anyway to do a poll on this site or am I getting it confused with something else? Anyway, if you know how to then tell me how or set up the poll yourself and we'll see how well yokes come out.

I realise that if its a stick or a yoke doesnt actually matter that much but I think a stick is a much better option in a small plane: whats the point of 2 handles if you're not even going to use them? By the way: yoke on an aerobat (!)

Now lets get that poll going

[Cusco]

Just to add my 2p worth to the (fallacious) argument which suggests that right handed yoke users are going to fall from the skies each time they take their hand off the yoke to reach for the throttle.

You don't see european car drivers disappearing into a ditch each time they change gear do you.

Think about it: most people have some use in their non-dominant hand.

I suppose one way to check would be to try wiping your *rse with your non dominant hand.

If you make a real pigs ear of it then don't fly.

Safe flying

;)

[FlyingForFun]

I logged 5 hours of dual in an Aztec, and I can tell you that if you let it get even slightly out of trim, the controls are very heavy, and you do need two hands! Of course, the answer is to not let it get out of trim :D which I managed after a while - but my biceps got a decent workout for the first hour or two!!!

As for which hand to use, I've been amused a couple of times by a PPRuNer friend (who will remain anonymous!) who I've taken flying in a Super Cub a couple of times. The Cub has a stick, and the throttle is on the left hand side (whether flying from front or back seat). My friend has a habit of holding the stick in the left hand, and stretching the right hand over to use the throttle! It looks very uncomfortable!!! Personally, I never had any problem switching from using my right hand for the throttle in the PA28, to using my left hand in the PA18. And I've also flown from the right seat a couple of times, and not had any problems there, either. But everyone's different.

FFF
--------------

[Who has control?]

I've just started flying in an aircraft that has a stick, after 100hrs in a Cessna. It just seems so more natural to put the stick where you want the nose of the aircraft to be pointing.

I'll vote for sticks.

[Lt Manuel Hung]

Although this is a pointless debate I'm bored so here's my tuppence worth:

"Isnt it easier to use a stick where you hold it in the centre than a wheel where you hold it offset to one side?"
Don't know about you mate, but both my arms are offset - one on the left, one on the right. You do use your ARMS to steer, don't you? Maybe holding the stick reminds you of your other favourite past-time :D

"do you think the cessna is popular because people really like it? Some do but dont you think it has a lot to do with cost and easiness to fly and its use as a trainer?"
So aircraft should be expensive, unreliable and impossible to fly? Isn't it enough that they're expensive and unreliable?

It would be interesting to see the results of a vote for yokes or sticks
Maybe in your world.

Tiger Moth - how's the flying lessons coming along?

[Whirlybird]

I also consider this a pointless debate. I can think of reasons for preferring fixed wing or rotary, high or low wing, single or twin engine, and a few other things. But yoke or stick? For gawd's sake!!!!! :eek: :confused: I've flown with both, and what I remember about those different aircraft are the responsiveness of the aircraft, where I went, what my landings were like. The damn thing could have had a yoke or a stick or a three pronged fork carved with dragons' heads for all I'd care, so long as it was a nice aircraft to fly on a nice day to a nice place.

I think this thread must get a prize for the most pointless question ever asked on PPRuNe. If you start a poll I for one will boycott it. And Tiger, when you've actually had some experience on both types of aircraft, and I mean some experience, not the odd lesson or two and a few thoughts, you'll see what I mean.

[Final 3 Greens]

Tiger

Yes, some people (quite a lot actually) do like Cessna's.

Also, if you think the 150 is easy to fly, do this WITH AN INSTRUCTOR.

Climb to a safe altitude, do you HASELLs, set 1500rpm and 40 degrees of flap, pitch up 10 degrees and then come back and tell us all what happened and how easy the 150 was to fly. :)

[Ivchenko]

Actually, TM, you should go and fly a C150 anyway.

You'd be astonished by the crisp handling and excess of power available in comparison to the Tiger Moth!!:D

[Skylark4]

Sorry Tiger Moth, this is a pointless question. I have flown, for a few minutes, a yoke equipped aircraft and a sidestick microlite glider for about half an hour. In the Ogar, when solo, I sometimes use the Stbd stick whilst checking the map. It really makes no difference. If it stuck out from the wall sideways I`m sure we would still adapt in seconds.

Mike W

[FlyingForFun]

Whirly,

The damn thing could have had ... a three pronged fork carved with dragons' heads for all I'd care

What an excellent idea! I think I see a mod to my Europa coming... hope the rest of the group agree to it! :D

FFF
-------------

[Whirlybird]

Hmm, should I set up a business do you think?

I mean why stop at forked yokes with dragons heads? We could have throttles carved with mermaids sticking out from the roof, with the interior painted to match, naturally. And flames or waves coming out from the compass and other instruments, depending on whether you prefer a firey or watery theme. Interesting things could happen to the altimeter as you climb - pictures of snowy mountains perhaps. If you land at an airfield below sea level...well, let's see...pictures of Atlantis comes to mind. Would all this be distracting, you ask. But a C150 or 152 is so easy to fly isn't it? Don't want you all to get bored now. This would keep up the interest when you're trying to land your boring Cessna in a 20kt crosswind at an airfield at 2000ft with a sheer drop at both ends.

As for helicopters...

But I'll leave that to someone else who's having a boring day at work.:D

[Tiger_ Moth]

I admit this thread had a provocative title and was perhaps a little ill conceived: sorry

I admit that yokes arent that bad

I still prefer sticks and think they are a slightly better form of control

I concede that it doesnt matter that much

I dont think its such a stupid question to debate yokes/sticks and dont know why you are all so annoyed by it: if you think its such a stupid question then just ignore the thread

Obviously any plane is hard to fly if you do something crazy with it or fly it in particularly hard conditions. I thought it was an accepted fact that cessnas are relatively easy to fly which is why it is such a prolific trainer. I dont mind cessnas and this thread wasnt meant to be about them.

[Evo7]

If this thread wasn't supposed to be about Cessnas, why did you call it "A stupid thing about cessnas" :confused: :rolleyes:

[Whirlybird]

Tiger Moth,

I shouldn't tease you; I was trying to brighten up a boring day at work for myself, and I'm sorry if it got to you.

I wasn't annoyed with your thread at first, but...

The title was DEFINITELY provocative; why not "Sticks or Yokes; which do you prefer?" or something similar? Why imply that Cessnas are stupid?

It was a valid subject for discussion, but you seemed to go way over the top, wanting a poll and that kind of thing. It's understandable, when it looks like you've started a subject that people want to discuss. But I think that's why some of us reacted the way we did - perhaps over-reacted, but hey, that's typical PPRuNe!

It's fine for you to prefer sticks. And fine for other people to prefer yokes (or dragon carved forks :D ), or have no preference at all.

It is indeed an accepted fact that Cessnas are relatively easy to fly. But that doesn't make them bad, and you seem to imply that it does.

The fact that you have little experience of actual flying but a lot of strong opinions about it sometimes annoys some people. Maybe it shouldn't, but it does. You're also very young, and sometimes that's very obvious to those of us who aren't any more. But there's no crime in that, and one thing that is certain is that you will grow older.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly...

Posts can be easily misunderstood. Mine are, frequently. I used to get almost reduced to tears by some of the apparently unfair responses I got. Now I'm tougher. But I always warn people who I introduce to PPRuNe to put on their mental armour before they come in here. I'm met loads of PPRuNers, and most of them are really nice people. But some aren't, some have bad days, some post without thinking, and so on. And some of us tease or make fun of people, without it meaning to be malicious at all, and perhaps it comes out wrong.

Tiger Moth, you have as much right to be here as anyone else. Keep posting, keep listening, and keep flying!

(And I now just hope to hell the above comes out as I meant it to
:eek: :eek: :eek: )

[Tiger_ Moth]

Evo 7: very good point. The answer is that I am basically wrong, the thread was intended as a debate about yokes/sticks and I just decided to say a stupid thing about cessnas, it could just as easily have been a stupid thing about pipers. Sorry

Whirly: I would hardly say I was reduced to tears by the responses, just a bit surprised that some of you got so annoyed. But actually, I realise I brought it on myself with the very provocative title which is why people are annoyed, not necessarily because of what the threads about.

Having said that, Im sure that even if the thread was called: " a level headed debate on yokes vs sticks" some people would have still got annoyed. For some reason.

This thread was not intended as an attack on cessnas.

[Final 3 Greens]

Tiger

Obviously any plane is hard to fly if you do something crazy with it

What I described is not a crzy thing - it has been done many times under stress and unless the pilot realises the dangers of the situation, it results in a departure stall.

The resulting mayhem is often fatal at low altitude and even when practised at a safe height will make you realise that no aeroplane is "easy to fly."

A spam can will kill you just as dead as any other plane if you don't pay attention.

Hopefully this insight might help you in your flying, which is the point of the post - not to attack you.

[paulo]

Oh dear. The Cessna Massive are out for revenge.

Run, Run!! (Actually, a gentle jog will probably do it... :D )

[solent01]

I have to agree with whirly on this 1, I have flown many aircraft from Harvards to 600 NOTARS, its not the controls I'm interested in as such, more how the aircraft responds to my control inputs, is it light in roll and pitch and what rate of roll and pitch will the aircraft give, how powerful is the power plant, does the aircraft give you a sense of feel or not, take the differance between a B206 and a MDD600 for example, the 206 has very little feel to the cyclic, lts very light, yet the 600 is fantastic, bags of feel not to mention power.

Tiger Moth maybe when you build up your experiance you will be able to appreciate what others are saying.

And the comment about bringing back the speed in a 150...................... hehehe mmm great exercise.

[Lt Manuel Hung]

Tiger Moth - perhaps the reason that some people (ie me) got wound up is that you seem to make a habit of having strong opinions about things you have precious little knowledge of. It is IMHO a dangerous position for a student pilot to take, and you would do far better to spend more time listening than talking. In fairness, your orignal post was doing just that - asking for opinions, however your subsequent post was what wound people up:
yokes were designed for heavy planes not little light aircraft. They have no business in small planes
This shows a lack of experience of flying generally. So tell us on what do you base your strongly held opinions: how many hours flying aircraft with a yoke, and how many with a stick?
Shouldn't pilots keep one hand handy for the throttle?
You can use either hand on a stick just as with a yoke. Pilots no more use two hands on the yoke than they use two hands on a stick. If you need one hand on the throttle then which hand you use on the yoke will be dictated by the position of the throttle. The only time I tend to use two hands is in heavy turbulence.

Pilots are generally helpful people - ask sensible questions and you will get all the advice you need; spout baseless opinions and you will be shot down (metaphorically speaking).

[Tiger_ Moth]

Final 3 Greens: no plane is easy to fly, but obviously some are easier than others. The situation you described is not quite crazy but I would not put my nose up while I was throttled down in the first place.

Lt: I accept everything you say. I prefer sticks and think they are better though.

Everybody here takes anything I say too seriously though: I basically said I prefered sticks and I get all this stick (for want of a better word) for it.

The debate over sticks vs yokes is obviously not very important , its more about preference yet you all treated it like I was claiming planes could fly without wings or something.

I admit the title was provocative, I admit sticks/yokes dont really matter, Im SORRY, it was just meant to be a light hearted debate but I really cant believe the response from some of you, I mean : it doesnt matter that much does it???

Now let this be an end to it

[Final 3 Greens]

Tiger

but I would not put my nose up while I was throttled down in the first place

Okay then - try it at full power to simulate a mishandled go around - the result is even worse.

Also, you don't have to pitch up that much at 1500rpm to get into trouble - if you are distracted, you'd be surprised how easy it is to bleed your airspeed off, add a little bit of out of balance rudder and you buy the farm.

Please listen to this advice - or at least talk to an instructor.

[Tiger_ Moth]

Whats your point finals!
Like I said before any plane can be dangerous, but some are easier to fly than others. ( under normal conditions)
I never said you couldnt stall a cessna!!

[Final 3 Greens]

Tiger

My point is that I am trying to be helpful to you, as you seem to have a blind spot in a potentially lethal area.

No matter how benign or pleasant the handling of an aircraft appears to be (what you apparently define as being easy to fly) they can all kill you in an instant.

You really need to understand that to be a safe pilot.

[Whirlybird]

And what Final 3 Greens didn't say is that nobody INTENTIONALLY does something stupid in an aircraft. And they don't necessarily do it because they're bad pilots. And they don't usually do it when things are going well. The problems happen when, for instance, the weather's got worse, you're perhaps tired after a long flight, your passengers are talking too much or throwing up or otherwise distracting you, you're coming into an unfamiliar airfield in difficult conditions, and you're generally overloaded. That's when things go wrong, because you've inadvertantly taken on more than you can handle.

But it helps just a little to realise it can happen to YOU too, and I don't just mean you Tiger Moth, I mean any of us.

[Sliding member]

Thought I'd just post along the lines of the original topic heading. What about stupid thing about Pipers (PA28/32) - no door for P1!

[Whirlybird]

sliding member,

I like PA28s, but I agree entirely; that DEFINITELY qualifies as a stupid thing.

Someone could start a new thread - stupid things in aviation. Bet that would get a lot of people going. :D

Tiger, maybe you started something after all! :D :D :D

[Evo7]

I thought that there was no door on the LHS of a PA-28 so the pilot could have a bigger window and better visibility - not sure that's stupid...

[FlyingForFun]

Re. being ambidextrous.

Earlier this year, I flew to Las Vegas, and parked at North Las Vegas airport. Departed North Las Vegas the following morning, switched to Las Vegas Approach asap to request a published VFR Class B transition.

"Las Vegas Approach, N49F, 1 mile south of North Las Vegas, request Showboat Departure"

"N49F, Approach, Showboat Departure unavailbe - are you familiar with McCarren Departure"

I didn't recall a departure with this name, and a quick check of my chart and my notes revealed nothing. (A subsequent, longer check also revealed nothing - I assume it's a commonly used procedure which the locals know but isn't published anywhere.)

"Negative, 49F"

"49F, do you have McCarren International Airport in sight"

"Affirm, 49F"

"49F, climb 4500', fly heading AAA until passing 3000', then direct McCarren, not below 3000'. Head direct for the numbers of runway XX, then turn and head direct for the numbers of runway YY. After crossing the threshold of runway YY, turn heading BBB and report some other airport in sight." (I'm sure there were more instructions in there, too, which I don't remember now.)

Sh!t - that's not quite what I was expecting! Fumble to get pen out of its holder on my kneeboard, fly the plane, and listen to the instructions all at the same time.

Eventually ended up with pen in right hand, yoke in left hand - not good since I'm a left-hander, but it already been several seconds since Approach finished giving me the instructions, so I didn't want to delay any further. Scribbled the instructions down with my right hand, then read them back, and - more through luck than judgement - got the readback correct!

I wish I'd kept my flight log from that flight, because it made amusing viewing - the scribbles were more like something you'd see from a 5-year-old just learning to write than from a 20-something pilot! Scrawled right the way across the top of all my other notes. I can't write in small letters with my right hand, so they were absolutely huge, dominating the whole of the page. Somehow - again, more by luck than judgement - managed not to obscure my planned headings/altitudes for the flight back, but didn't leave me much room to make any more notes along the route! But it all worked out ok in the end...

FFF
-----------

[Final 3 Greens]

Whirly

Agree completely with your post about getting in above one's head.

Hopefully Tiger will realise that we post from personal experience and were fortunate to be able reflect on what happened and learn from our mistakes.



:) Finals

[Final 3 Greens]

On the subject of LH doors (or lack of) on Pipers.

I learned on PA28s and never notice the lack of a door as I don't expect one ....

pros

- saves weight
- strengthens airframe
- no chance of uncommanded opening in flight

cons

- egress in event of incident
- have to board RHS pax after PIC - would prefer to board last if PIC

[BRL]

I have been asked to delete this thread by the poster as they feel it is getting out of hand..(talk of side doors....).
I will close but not delete it as i think it contains some good points. I believe he posted the thread to get the point accross that sticks were better but he didn't really do that to well as you can see by the title of it to which he has already admitted is a bit of a stupid title. Fair enough, hes sick of the flak hes getting so i will close it now. :)