Boeing 747 Dreamlifter lands at wrong airport

[1stspotter]

A Boeing 747 Dreamlifter landed at the wrong airport at around 21:38 local time. It landed at Jabara airport in Kansas but was scheduled to land at McConnell Air Force Base (IAB) in Kansas.
The runway at the airport is not long enough to take off again.

Interesting enough the crew of two was not aware of which airport they landed. For minutes they thought it was Beech Factory airport. In fact they landed north of Beech at Jabara airport.

According @LiveATC the DreamLifter was 25mile from field at 9:12pm -- cleared for the ARNAV GPS approach to 19L at IAB

Jabara airport has a single runway and is located north-east of the city of Wichita.
McConnell Air Force Base is located in the south east of the city, has two parallel runways and is much larger than Jabara airport.

Both Jabara and McConnell have runways that are running more or less north-south.

For a map showing the position of both airports see this link
https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=ziifwbpJGXbM.kJkZGuBc9xd4

The Boeing 747 Dreamlifter is a modified Boeing 747 Freighter. It is used by Boeing to fly Boeing 787 aircraft parts like wings from various locations worldwide to Seattle. At Seattle the parts are asssembled to a complete aircraft.

The aircraft are flown and operated by Atlas Air. 2 persons on board. aircraft landed safely with no damage.

It appears the aircraft is not able to backtrack the runway. Boeing sents a tug to turn the aircraft around.

Massive Plane Mistakenly Lands At A Tiny Kansas Airport And Is Stuck There (http://www.buzzfeed.com/passantino/massive-plane-mistakenly-lands-at-a-tiny-kansas-airport-and)

photo
https://twitter.com/KAKEnews/status/403401145265033216/photo/1

[ITman]

Now that is a real USA pilot skill 100%

[ATC Watcher]

Yeah m Sh*t happens! Not the first one and not the last one !

Lots of work to do now, like removing all unecessary things on board, pump out some fuel and then taking off on 6000ft should not really be a problem.

[Wycombe]

Still amazes me that this can happen. Routeing, navaids, onboard systems, visual clues all ignored?

Anyway, 6100ft is hardly "tiny". Many 747's (including 400's) have landed at an airfield called Kemble in the UK, with runway length about the same. Not many leave again (it's a centre of parting-out activity), but I expect a few have, and shouldn't be a problem with light load/fuel and a bit of wind in the right direction.

[westhawk]

Now that is a real USA pilot skill 100%

You betcha pard! :ok: Nobody hurt. Wish we could say the same about some other recent screwups...

Yeah, 6,000' won't be much of a problem at light weight. Except perhaps for the embarrassment...

[olasek]

Now that is a real USA pilot skill 100%An honest mistake and no one is hurt, no equipment damaged.
Hey, Singapore resident - much better than a Singapore Airlines 747 captain who took of from a closed runway in Taipei in 2000 and killed over 80 people in the process... :uhoh:

[DaveReidUK]

Reports suggest that when the aircraft had touched down and the crew asked McConnell for taxi instructions, only to be told "well you haven't landed here", they still couldn't work out where they were and believed they had landed at the Beech Factory Airport (KBEC, about midway between Jabara and McConnell).

[Pugilistic Animus]

Not too bad at all, at least they landed in the right state:}

[onetrack]

I gather these pilots belonged to that well known F troop tribe?? :rolleyes:

Just makes you wonder how they find their way home from the airport? :rolleyes:

[hifly787]

Something similar to the Saudi 747 screw up at Chennai many years ago . That also landed at Tambaram AF Station length 7000 .

[me myself and fly]

Tower: “Do you know which airport you’re at?”
Pilot: “Well we think we have a pretty good pulse — how many airports directly to the south … are there?”

https://soundcloud.com/buzzfeednews/mcconnell-afb-air-traffic

[Ptkay]

Boeing sent a tug from its Wichita facilities to the airport, to try and turn around the Dreamlifter, but that could take some time …

.....

Because on the way to the airport early Thursday the tug broke down.

:)

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BZlGrGcCQAEFbaL.jpg

[swh]

True, sh* t happens. But, a big but here...it shows up a lot of things that are going wrong in Mr B's joint.

The aircraft are operated by Atlas Air, not Boeing.

[STN Ramp Rat]

the entire recording is on liveatc.net

Dreamlifter lands at wrong airport | LiveATC.net (http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/dreamlifter-lands-at-wrong-airport/)

you have to feel a bit sorry for them, it took them a while to find out where they had landed.

[Capt Fathom]

Surely the EGPWS would be going bananas with the aircraft landing at an airport that wasn't the destination.

How do you reconcile what you are seeing outside with what is programmed in the FMS and displaying on the NAV Display?

:confused:

[Check Airman]

Just imagine what the guys at the flight school are gonna think when they go to do their run up...:)




You know it's bad when you have to ask ATC where you are

"Giant 4241 heavy, student pilot, first solo":O

[Super VC-10]

The tug appears not to have a registration plate. Maybe that's why the police have pulled it over.

[1stspotter]

noticed not all links of recordings of ATC actually work.

This link worked for me.
It is a 6 minutes, 41 sec sound clip of the Boeing 747 working with McConnell AFB air traffic controller.

A most remarkable conversation. The cree of the Atlas Air aircraft is completely lost.

McConnell AFB ATC leared to land 19L. Then a few minutes later a very modest pilot voice can be heared:
We just landed at the wrong airport

Interesting enough the pilot believes they landed at Beech Factory Airport (KBEC). When McConnell controller asks the pilot "you are at BEC??" the pilot response is "we think so"

Beech Factory airport is located roughly in the middle between McConnell Air force base and Colonel James Jabara airport.
The crew probably were mistaken by three airports close to eachother all three having runways running in the same direction (more or less north/south)

The pilot then asks for a tower frequency and coordinates of BEC. Then a couple of minutes of communication between McConnell and the Atlas Air trying to find out at which airport they actually landed.

After 5 minutes after landing the McConnell AFB controller tells the pilot he must have landed at Jabara airport seeing the radar track.
The controller even had to spell out the airport name to the pilot.

The pilot then confirms he is at Jabara.

A pretty carreer limiting move I guess.

https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F121174731&auto_play=false&show_artwork=true&origin=twitter

[kenjaDROP]

Something very wrong here (obviously!), but I'm suggesting the navaids, or reading of same, on this a/c?

Landing 8 miles North of dest field, then carrying out a long discussion with dest tower to query current position??!!

[CornishFlyer]

Super VC-10,

In some states, you only have to have a registration plate on the back ;)

[1stspotter]

The Boeing tug is actually escorted by the police for its drive from McConnell to Jabara because the max speed of the tug is about 13 mph.
Over public roads in the dark this is just a bit risky.

[Capn Bloggs]

Radar? ATC? WTF??

The aircraft are operated by Atlas Air, not Boeing.
That was Tipsy's point, I believe. ;)

Surely the EGPWS would be going bananas with the aircraft landing at an airport that wasn't the destination.
Not necessarily. How do you think the system would cope during a no-notice diversion without loading the FMS with the new destination?

The EGPWS knows where it is from the GPS. I doubt if it matters what's programmed into the FMS flight plan.

[racedo]

It was a good landing...............plane still in one piece vs a great landing, usable vs an excellent one, you can take off again.......easily.

Question is whether you strip the aircraft down to allow it take off again knowing it will take a week or two or extend runway which appears possible based on Goggle Maps and get aircraft back in service.

Personally think runway extension probably a better idea.

[Spooky 2]

"The recruitment of non type - rated delivery and customer instructor pilots who have not flown the planes professionally before but also lack white body experience in bona fide air operators. Recruitment of non rated guys with dodgy airline experience as instructors at Boeing Training/Alteon. The dumbing down of Boeing pilots with the side - lining of the pilots affliated with Manufacturers Pilots Association. All this will surely lead to the slide down where sh*t will certainly happen!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif "

Puleeze... where do come up with this BS? Save it for another forum!:}

[racedo]

Re runway extension in last post.

Remember a Cork friend telling me of a Mexican aircraft which got into trouble over Ireland and believe Shannon ATC guided it to land at a racecourse.

Apparently insurance company were very happy to have runway laid to ensure aircraft could take off again, bearing in mind the alternative.

Good old Goggle allowed me to find it
In 1983, a Mexican private jet made an emergency landing in Mallow, Ireland and had to stay for five weeks so a runway could be built, during which time the pilot became a local celeb. - OMG Facts (http://www.omg-facts.com/History/In-1983-A-Mexican-Private-Jet-Made-An-Em/52315)

[1stspotter]

Wichita local tv station KAKE News has a reported at Jabara airport and does live reports on the situation. See actually does not know more than that has been reported in this thread.

live stream
Livestream (http://www.kake.com/livestream)

The aircraft (registration N780BA) landed in a southerly direction at runway 18. The Boeing tug turned the aircraft 180 degrees nose heading to the north. The tug is now pushing the aircraft back towards the beginning of runway 36.

[Skyjob]

Not too familiar (yet) with local details, but orientation of two runways seems similar, with a third same oriented runway parallel and in between.

[sleeper]

An honest mistake and no one is hurt, no equipment damaged.
Hey, Singapore resident - much better than a Singapore Airlines 747 captain who took of from a closed runway in Taipei in 2000 and killed over 80 people in the process...



Don't be so smugg. What if there was equipment on the runway they landed on? The result would have been the same as in taipei with obviously less people killed but thats not the point.

[Cows getting bigger]

An honest mistake? Oh how I laugh.

Yes, there are some really good flight safety lessons to be learnt here, just like those we will learn from Asiana, UPS, Southwest etc.

However, the overall hypocrisy of this forum is not lost on me. I wonder how this particular thread would have evolved if the crew were Korean, African or even European?

[1stspotter]

There was a live report by someone of the authorities.

He told that Atlas Air states the aircraft will be able to takeoff with the current conditions. No need to extend the runway as suggested in this thread.
It is believed the aircraft is carrying cargo but cargo does not need to be offloaded for the takeoff. Also no fuel has been offloaded.

A new flightcrew is coming over t0 Jabara expected to arrive late morning. The crew will prepare the aircraft for takeoff. Takeoff will be at 12:00 local time today.

[steve25]

Airport official giving live news conference reports aircraft will fly out later once new crew have arrived from New York, within limits for TO.

[riverrock83]

Those DreamLifters are designed for carrying bulky items, not necessarily heavy items. It could be taking large but very light items - hence it is within TO limits (or it could be empty). Also it doesn't have far to fly so wont need much fuel!

[Eddie787]

Utter hypocrisy! Just a mistake when done by a group of people while total murder when done by another group!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<McConnell AFB controller tells the pilot he must have landed at Jabara airport seeing the radar track. >>

Pity he didn't say something earlier..

[ZOOKER]

It does raise some ATC questions though. If McConnell could see the overflying light aircraft mentioned on the ATC replay, why didn't they see where the Dreamlifter was going?
At the airport where I worked, this scenario arose at least 5 times way back, and it was always spotted and resolved by approach radar.

Sorry HD, you beat me by 3 minutes.

[DaveReidUK]

It could be taking large but very light items - hence it is within TO limits (or it could be empty).

The Dreamlifter would have been inbound to the Spirit Aerosystems plant at McConnell to pick up a 787 forward fuselage, so it's entirely possible that it was empty on arrival.

[Basil]

I'd have thought the controller would have noticed the aircraft lining up on the wrong runway although, I was once released to call tower with the words "You are down wind for ****."
Well, I WAS downwind OK - but not for ****. :(

[Grndops]

100 foot wide runway.....all they can do is push back to the other end of the runway a hope for a nice breeze from the right direction. Who said PCN?

[AirportHopper]

Listening to the LiveATC.net recording posted above, we know thy were on the RNAV (GPS) RWY 19L (http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1312/00453R19L.PDF) approach. The IAF-FAF segment of that approach (WITBA to WARUN) is on a true heading of 186, and passes directly above KAAO airport. At KAAO, the runway is perfectly aligned with the approach centerline, on a true heading on 187. The alignment is perfect. Looking at the approach, at WARUN there is a heading change to 192. So then flying WITBA-WARUN, the only airport with runway aligned precisely at 12 o'clock is KAAO, not KIAB. I can see the mistake happening, horizontally this is a good match.

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m505/ImagesInTheCloud/KIAB-GPS19L_zps91d56f5d.jpg

How about the vertical profile? WITBA to WARUN is 9 miles. WITBA to KAAO runway threshold is 6.7 miles. At WITBA they must have been at 4000', per the approach plate. KAAO runway 18 threshold is at 1401'. So they had to come down 2600 feet in 6.7 miles. That's a 3.65 degree glideslope from WITBA to the KAAO runway. Again, the vertical glide is also pretty good, it they had interpreted WITBA as a FAF.

It will be interesting to see what the investigators find and what actions may be taken. I can see how a single mistake of confusing WITBA for WARUN would lead to this. Not excusable from a professional crew, but I can see it happening.

Now here is another thing... The KAAO NOTAM:
AAO 11/008 AAO AD AIRPORT CLSD 1311210347-1311272300

So they expect to fly out of there today, but the airport is to be closed until the 27th? Runway damage perhaps? DreamLifter too heavy for that runway?

[AN2 Driver]

Who said PCN?

Empty Aircraft and a lot of wheels :)

[wild goose]

You've got to feel sorry for these guys...

[AirportHopper]

I'd have thought the controller would have noticed the aircraft lining up on the wrong runway

Actually, the controller wouldn't notice that unless he was paying attention to the altitude. The KAAO runway is perfectly aligned with the approach to KIAB.

[grimmrad]

Did they use Apple maps to navigate? And - why not having a look at your phone where you are and then problem is solved. Bit amazed that in their multi-million dollar plane there is no good mapping system or what is going on there... (but what do I know)?

[Skyjob]

From KIAB (http://www.airnav.com/airport/KIAB) Airfield Additional Remarks:
DEER & BIRD HAZ-EXP HVY BIRD ACT SEP-FEB.

[joee]

This is small potatoes compared to the AMTRAK train getting lost in Philadelphia. How the hell does a train get lost?

[Skyjob]

Best chart found far for those who are not aware of the location difference for situational awareness:
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1312/06234ILD18.PDF

[AirportHopper]

I wrote a long post with images and links that the mods have not yet approved (if they will even approve).

Bottom line:

The initial approach segment of the GPS 19L approach into KIAB passes directly over the KAAO runway, is perfectly aligned with the KAAO runway but not aligned with the KIAB runway
The glide slope from IAF to KAAO runway is 3.65
Names of IAF and FAF fixes are similar
A simple confusion in the cockpit mixing up IAF and FAF (however unforgivable that may be) would easily lead to this outcome

[Basil]

Actually, the controller wouldn't notice that unless he was paying attention to the altitude. The KAAO runway is perfectly aligned with the approach to KIAB.
Yes, I see what you mean.
If anything like the RAF; to newly arrived USAF pilot on sector recce: "That's Jabara, that's Beech, that's Cessna and (pointing to 'kin enormous lump of concrete) that's us!"

[AirportHopper]

If anything like the RAF; to newly arrived USAF pilot on sector recce: "That's Jabara, that's Beech, that's Cessna and (pointing to 'kin enormous lump of concrete) that's us!"

Except at night that 'ing enormous concrete of yours is invisible. Only lights are visible. From the IAF, KAAO's lights at 7 miles away may just look bigger and brighter than your lights 14 miles away that are not even aligned with the approach path.

[Diamond Bob]

Did they use Apple maps to navigate? And - why not having a look at your phone where you are and then problem is solved. Bit amazed that in their multi-million dollar plane there is no good mapping system or what is going on there... (but what do I know)?

No kidding! Why is it that when I'm sailing with my chart plotter I know where I am within a few feet at all times, but these guys can land a 747 8 miles from their destination and not know where they are? This seems more than strange. It reminds me of Northwest Flight 52 which landed in the wrong country, while 241 passengers in back knew exactly where they were. And this was in 1995! DC-10 misses Frankfurt runway - by 300km (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dc-10-misses-frankfurt-runway-by-300km-23951/)

Doesn't someone think it's time that pilots knew where they were?

[misd-agin]

DTG(distance to go) on FMC? On ND?

Low altitude alert from ATC?

[KBPsen]

They should have used an atlas. See what I did there.

[connies4ever]

In the 60s AF put a 707 with pax into Cartierville Quebec instead of Dorval. Cartierville was a closed airport and the runways had large 'X's at either end. They ultimately got it out and ferried to YUL.

[brlira]

How come they were Cleared to land though by the atc KIAB tower?

[Evanelpus]

In the 60s AF put a 707 with pax into Cartierville Quebec instead of Dorval. Cartierville was a closed airport and the runways had large 'X's at either end. They ultimately got it out and ferried to YUL.

I would like to think that training techniques and technology have moved on a little since the 60's!!

[CL300]

not as good as a US airline 747 landing in Brussels(Belgium) instead of Frankfurt (Germany) some years ago , speeding up the cleaning and the cabin because of course they were 45 minutes ahead of time, just to realize on final that it was not the proper runway...

Any takers on how the captain realized their mistake ?

[The Ancient Geek]

Somebody screwed up.
The man who never mistake never made anything.

Nobody died, nobody injured, no damage except to someones pride.
BIG DEAL.

[The Dominican]

I wonder how many explanations of the perfectly aligned rwys that are 10 miles away from each other would be flying around on this thread if the crew was Korean....!:rolleyes:

[911slf]

Google Image Result for http://4.bp.********.com/-oxDsbzXDmGo/ToFA4VAwfUI/AAAAAAAAE3o/iT4EU_N2ZHI/s1600/img_8.jpg (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://4.bp.********.com/-oxDsbzXDmGo/ToFA4VAwfUI/AAAAAAAAE3o/iT4EU_N2ZHI/s1600/img_8.jpg&imgrefurl=http://piperbasenji.********.com/2011/09/toto.html&h=300&w=431&sz=40&tbnid=PVzpLUXEb8D_dM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=129&zoom=1&usg=__VcSbR_qFmHUfidRECWSl1MmgyPQ=&docid=nQQpDI3EpwSfyM&sa=X&ei=4ySOUqz7A6aJ0AWi5oCQDQ&ved=0CDUQ9QEwAg)

[zerozero]

not as good as a US airline 747 landing in Brussels(Belgium) instead of Frankfurt (Germany) some years ago , speeding up the cleaning and the cabin because of course they were 45 minutes ahead of time, just to realize on final that it was not the proper runway...

Any takers on how the captain realized their mistake ?

I'll bite.

:}

He finally recognized the accent as closer to French than German?

:bored:

[Ramjet555]

Jumbo jet mistakenly lands at tiny Kansas airport
BBC News - Jumbo jet mistakenly lands at tiny Kansas airport (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-25032380)

Listen to an excerpt from the exchange between the control tower and pilot

A Boeing 747 Dreamlifter cargo plane will attempt to take off from a minor airport in Kansas after it landed there by mistake.

The giant cargo jet was heading for McConnell air force base in Wichita but instead touched down at nearby Colonel James Jabara airport.

Airport officials believe the plane will be able to depart despite the much shorter runway at Jabara.

An attempt is scheduled for noon local time (18:00 GMT) on Thursday.

The aircraft normally needs a runway of 2,780m (9,119ft) to get airborne at maximum weight; Jabara's runway is only 1,860m long.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/71249000/jpg/_71249400_kansas_jumbo_624.jpg

A tug was dispatched to the airport to turn around the giant cargo plane.

Brad Christopher of the Wichita Airport Authority told the Associated Press news agency the company that operates the aircraft had "assured us they've run all the engineering calculation and performance and the aircraft is very safe for a normal departure at its current weight and conditions here".

The Dreamlifter, which landed at Jabara on Wednesday evening, is a modified 747-400 passenger aeroplane, which can carry more cargo by volume than any aeroplane in the world, according to Boeing.

The aerospace company uses its fleet of four Dreamlifters to transport large assembled components of its 787 Dreamliner from suppliers around the world to the final assembly location in Washington state.

The City of Wichita tweeted that no one was injured and no property damage occurred when the plane landed.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/71258000/jpg/_71258027_71258025.jpg

BBC News - Jumbo jet mistakenly lands at tiny Kansas airport (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-25032380)

comment:
This is what happens when TWO pilots rely on pressing buttons into a dumb computer
on the latest bit of technology
and
or fail to have "situational awareness".

[Cows getting bigger]

I think we should ban 'Merikans from European airspace until they can learn to navigate.

[CL300]

zero zero...nope

I give the answer away.. The color of the runway, ( one is black the other is grey) the captain knew he was NOT in FRA, but did not know where they were, they landed, it was the best option at 10 mile final.
I cannot remember if they departed again right away or not.:hmm:

[repariit]

Boeing has landed 747's at Renton (KRTN), on their 5300 foot runway. They did it successfully several times before this one (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19691214&id=cHozAAAAIBAJ&sjid=N-EDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3967,3185883). It was back in 1969, and the aircraft in this story was one of five early 747's used in the flight test program.

Currently, only 737's are flown from Renton.

[Spaace]

Very hard to believe how an experienced crew positioned for and landed at an airfield almost 7 miles before their actual planned destination, on a runway 18 when they were expecting to land on runway 19 !

Was the WAAS GPS not working, was there no DME and VOR set up, was the ILS for RWY 19 at McConnell unserviceable ??

I am even more puzzled that approach radar were not concerned by their height, heading and airspeed. It must have looked rather strange at 15 miles out and getting more critical by the minute. Was this ever questioned by radar ? They must have thought they were descending a tad early !

Would love to know what was programmed into their GPS flight plan and FMS etcetera....... Was the destination entered incorrectly ????

:eek:

[AirportHopper]

I am even more puzzled that approach radar were not concerned by their height, heading and airspeed. It must have looked rather strange at 15 miles out and getting more critical by the minute. Was this ever questioned by radar ? They must have thought they were descending a tad early !

Approach control had already handed the flight over to tower well before they got to KAAO, and the tower had already cleared them to land. So it's very likely that no one was watching them on radar, or that the tower might not get height, heading and airspeed indication or alerts if they even have radar.

Perhaps a future local procedural improvement that can be made is for approach to not hand the aircraft over to tower until after passing Jabara.

[racedo]

Not the first time this has occurred........not Continent specific either


2010s



November 20, 2013 - A Boeing Dreamlifter, bound for McConnell Air Force Base in Wichita, Kansas, mistakenly lands at Jabara Airport (AAO). Link. (http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/21/travel/kansas-cargo-plane-wrong-airport//)
October 13, 2012 - A Sriwijaya Air 737, bound for Minangkabau International Airport in Padang, Indonesia (PDG), mistakenly lands at Tabing Airport, a military airfield. Link. (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/sriwijaya-pilots-grounded-after-landing-at-wrong-airport-377671/)
August 7, 2012 - A Silver Airways Saab 340B, bound for Clarksburg, West Virginia (CKB), mistakenly lands at Fairmont Municipal Airport (4G7). Link. (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=453f2492)
October 30, 2011 - An Azul Linhas Aereas E-195, bound for Teresina, Brazil (THE), mistakenly lands at Domingos Rego Airport in Timon. Link. (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=44563660)
September 7, 2011 - A Colgan Air Saab 340, bound for Lakes Charles, Louisiana (LCH), mistakenly lands at Southland Field (L75) in Carlyss. Link. (http://www.sulphurdailynews.com/features/x371943011/Passenger-gives-account-of-plane-landing-in-Carlyss-instead-of-Lake-Charles)
September 13, 2010 - An Aeromexico MD-83, bound for Tuxtla, Mexico (TGZ), mistakenly lands at Francisco Sarabia/Teran Military Airport. Link. (http://avherald.com/h?article=430f5d41)

2000s


April 17, 2009 - A TAAG Angola 737, bound for Lusaka, Zambia (LUN), mistakenly lands at Zambia Air Force City Airport. Link. (http://www.afriquejet.com/news/africa-news/angola-airlines-plane-lands-at-wrong-airport-in-lusaka-2009041825803.html)
April 8, 2009 - A Turkish Airlines 737, bound for Tbilisi, Georgia (TBS), mistakenly lands at Tbilisi Vaziani, a military airfield. Link. (http://avherald.com/h?article=417bf096)
August 16, 2006 - A Turkish Sky Airlines 737, bound for Poznan, Poland (POZ), mistakenly lands at Krzesiny, a military airfield. Link. (http://miasta.gazeta.pl/poznan/1,36001,3553950.html)
March 29, 2006 - A Eirjet A320, bound for Derry, Northern Ireland (LDY), mistakenly lands at Ballykelly, a military airfield. Link. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4859716.stm)
December 16, 2005 - A Pakistan International Airlines 737, bound for Karachi, Pakistan (KHI), mistakenly lands at Faisal, a military airfield. Link. (http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=64976&version=1&template_id=41&parent_id=23)
September 5, 2005 - A Wings Air MD-80, bound for Minangkabau International Airport in Padang, Indonesia (PDG), mistakenly lands at Tabing Airport, a military airfield. Link. (http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/09/20/Navigation/256/201639/Pilots+grounded+after+landing+at+wrong+airport.html)
June 19, 2004 - The above-mentioned incident of a Northwest Airlines A319, bound for Rapid City, South Dakota (RAP), mistakenly landing at Ellsworth Air Force Base.
January 9, 2004 - A Shuttle America Saab 340, bound for University Park Airport in State College, Pennsylvania (SCE), mistakenly lands at Mid-State Regional Airport in Philipsburg (PSB). Link. (http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/7716354.htm)
January 22, 2003 - A Chatauqua Airlines Embraer 145, chartered by the University of Notre Dame basketball team and bound for South Bend, Indiana (SBN), mistakenly lands at Elkhart Municipal Airport (EKI). See Tom Coyne, "Irish land at wrong airport because of pilot mistake," Associated Press, January 24, 2003.
July 30, 2002 - A LOT Polish Airlines aircraft, bound for Kaliningrad, Russia (KGD), mistakenly lands at Chkalovsk, a military airfield. Link. (http://www.times.spb.ru/archive/times/791/news/n_7047.htm)
June 27, 2001 - A TAM Fokker 100, bound for Teresina, Brazil (THE), mistakenly lands at Timon. See "Brazilian pilot mistakes private airstrip for urban airport," Deutsche Presse-Agentur, June 27, 2001.
March 14, 2001 - A TWA MD-80, bound for Yampa Valley Airport (HDN), in Steamboat Springs, Colorado mistakenly lands at Craig-Moffat Airport (CIG). Link. (http://www.cnn.com/2001/TRAVEL/NEWS/03/15/wrong.airport/index.html)
December 8, 2000 - A BAX Global DC-8, bound for Oscoda-Wurtsmith Airport (OSC) in Oscoda, Michigan, mistakenly lands at Iosco County Airport (ECA) in East Tawas. Link. (http://archives.californiaaviation.org/airport/msg12024.html)
June 17, 2000 - An Air Nova Dash 8, bound for Mont Joli, Quebec (YYY), mistakenly lands at Rimouski Airport (YXK). See "Pilots land at wrong airport," The Gazette (Montreal, Quebec), June 20, 2000.

[KanzaKS]

God grant that on he day I make a mistake, it's not a slow news day in London

[Spooky 2]

TWA, UAL, PAA, WAL, DAL, EAL all have landed at the wrong airport at one time or another during the 60's. Some of these airlines have done it more than once.:=

[dadtoo]

Not a word about complacency or fatigue....?????:hmm:

[frieghtdog2000]

The Captain of the Pan Am B707 which landed at Northolt instead of Heathrow was (allegedly) asked by ATC for his intentions. "I guess I'll take up Chicken Farming" was the reply.

[Pablo26]

Former Cessna driver, current SLF.

Seems to me these pilots did a heluva nice job putting a 74 down on a 6100 foot, 100 ft wide runway at night:)

Question, if anyone knows what happened after similar "diversions" - what will happen to these pilots? is this a career ender, or will they get back after up after some retraining (assuming an otherwise clean record)?

[The Dominican]

Spooky 2 TWA, UAL, PAA, WAL, DAL, EAL all have landed at the wrong airport at one time or another during the 60's. Some of these airlines have done it more than once.


The situational awareness of the cockpit of the 60's is not that of the cockpits today.:= fatigue? Complacency? I don't know..! But how on earth does that even happen on a modern cockpit:confused:

[Ozlander1]

One of the shortcomings of hand flying the approach. :confused:

[Spooky 2]

I don't believe any of these pilots mentioned in my post were terminated. Humilated...yes, but terminated...no. Keep in mind that there was no damage, no injuries so that had to be a big factor in how this turned. :ok:

[InSoMnIaC]

Good example of Confirmation Bias.

[LW20]

Quote:
"comment:
This is what happens when TWO pilots rely on pressing buttons into a dumb computer
on the latest bit of technology
and
or fail to have "situational awareness"."

I think if they would have relied on their buttons the dumb computer would have flown them to McConnell AFB if entered correctly in the FMS.

[vintage ATCO]

Approach control had already handed the flight over to tower well before they got to KAAO, and the tower had already cleared them to land. So it's very likely that no one was watching them on radar, or that the tower might not get height, heading and airspeed indication or alerts if they even have radar.

There is a reason why control towers have very large windows . . . . .

[barit1]

Sept. 1975 - P&W in E. Hartford was holding an open house in recognition of its 50th anniversary. For the public display they invited one each of most surviving P&W-powered aircraft, complete from the late 20s. I was mostly interested in the radial-powered equipment, and pleased to see a hangar full of one each of most every engine Pratt ever built.

The elephant on the field - Rentschler Field, 5000' runway - was the UAL 747-100, flown by a Boeing crew with recent short-field experience.

(My funnybone was tickled by a couple of Sikorsky SH-3 and CH-53 interlopers, bearing no recognition of their Brand X engines)

[Navcant]

I'm guessing the airport is closed because there's a Dreamlifter on the only runway.

As far as being closed until the 27th, a NOTAM must have an end date, it cannot be open ended like: "closed until further advised".

[misd-agin]

6000 x 100 looks like 9000 x 150 if you are slightly farther out.

Visual illusion possibilities?

[barit1]

if anyone knows what happened after similar "diversions" - what will happen to these pilots?

If the event isn't indicative of a pattern, and the person shows a talent for it, a safety-related job might be a good option. :hmm:

[Airbubba]

TWA, UAL, PAA, WAL, DAL, EAL all have landed at the wrong airport at one time or another during the 60's. Some of these airlines have done it more than once.

Here's a nostalgic listing of some of those incidents, partially quoted above by racedo:

Wrong Way Landings By Commercial Airliners (http://www.thirdamendment.com/wrongway.html)

Question, if anyone knows what happened after similar "diversions" - what will happen to these pilots? is this a career ender, or will they get back after up after some retraining (assuming an otherwise clean record)?

I think the Atlas pilots were probably in the Teamsters union (yo' Vinnie, youse gotta problem wit dat?). Often these unusual missions are flown by management check airmen who may have a union seniority number but no active union representation.

Either way, unless the CVR shows total disregard of procedures, my guess would be that the feds will pull their tickets temporarily (and check airman letters if applicable), they will be retrained and put back on the line after sim training and a line check.

Anybody at 5Y willing to comment on whether it was indeed an Atlas IBT crew?

[srobarts]

Live stream on KWCH.com at the moment of the preparation and take-off.
CNN is also covering it.

[robbreid]

Live streaming video awaiting departure,

dreamlifter on USTREAM: . (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/dreamlifter?utm_campaign=t.co&utm_source=ustre-am&utm_medium=social)

[robbreid]

More coverage from the other side of the runway with closeup (live) of the B747;

AirlineReporter.com « DOH! Boeing 747 Dreamlifter Lands at Wrong Airport (http://www.airlinereporter.com/2013/11/stuck-boeing-747-dreamlifter-lands-at-airport-that-is-too-small/#live)

[visibility3miles]

Given how long it took them to figure out where they were, why didn't someone telephone Beech or Jabara to ask if they had a Dreamliner on their runway?

Pretty easy to spot.

[grimmrad]

And off she goes...

[vintage ATCO]

easy peasy!

[1stspotter]

Given how long it took them to figure out where they were, why didn't someone telephone Beech or Jabara to ask if they had a Dreamliner on their runway?

Beech Factory was closed and I would not be surprised if Jabara was closed as well at the time of the landing.

[hitchens97]

For those of you worried about the runway length. Here's a takeoff video of a 747-200 scheduled service from Bournemouth (UK) to New York, with presumably a ton more weight, and less performance than a 400, on a runway of about 7400 ft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPJiOareZnA

[hitchens97]

BTW - for these one of a kind take offs with no passengers, will the FAA ever waive V1 requirements?

[olasek]

BTW - for these one of a kind take offs with no passengers, will the FAA ever waive V1 requirements?
I always wondered about that, they allow sometimes flights on special 'ferry permit', for example with one engine inop, etc. then perhaps they could also make an exception for balanced field requirements too.

[WakeTT]

And run the risk of losing a Dreamlifter with an engine failure? I doubt whether Boeing would be willing to take such a "PR" risk. And a N-1 ferry flight for a 747 does have a V1. The permit applies more to the training of the pilots who make the ferry flight I guess.

[Good Vibs]

If I remember correctly the passengers were watching the inflight map and saw that they were landing at Brussels while the Crew announced the landing in Frankfurt!

[Skyjob]

Won't waive V1 requirements, just won't be balanced field.
You need a V1 at or above Vmcg, use diagram below.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-itG1mV8eMuI/T1CkVtzcjzI/AAAAAAAAABU/PkT_El3j10Y/s640/V1.001.jpg

Also this tread (http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/527773-optimum-v1.html) for a discussion about range of V1

[LN-MOW]

not as good as a US airline 747 landing in Brussels(Belgium) instead of Frankfurt (Germany) some years ago , speeding up the cleaning and the cabin because of course they were 45 minutes ahead of time, just to realize on final that it was not the proper runway...

I beleive his flightplan was wrong and they followed it without realizing they were going to the 'wrong' city ..

[Tipsy Barossa]

Deleted my post as I was certainly tipsy when I wrote that! Forgot it was Atlsc crew but the gist of the post is valid despite the bull written by the one that ****! Gee, I am still tipsy but recruitment by Boeing of non rated guys to rplace AMPA guys was revealed a long tome ago.....

[deSitter]

Comparing this photo to the runway, he got off in less than 4000 feet. Wasn't even as dramatic as that famous Bournemouth video...

-drl

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/615/img/photos/2013/11/21/20/d6/747_Wrong_Airport.JPEG-0acb.JPG

[Intruder]

Currently, only 737's are flown from Renton.
Currently, 737s are only flown FROM Renton; they do not land there. First flights go to BFI, and subsequent flights operate to/from BFI.

[parabellum]

The first indication that the take off was well within the capability of the aircraft/runway etc. is that Boeing didn't send a B747 test pilot over to fly it out and left it to Atlas. From the charts it looks as though they could have lifted about 280 tons out from 6000', assuming nil slope, nil wind, +10C, Flap 20.

[Pugilistic Animus]

I bet that V1 was Vmcg limited

[StormyKnight]

Takeoff Video
Notes no audio, roll from 1:30
g5UiAd2c-MM

[ZeBedie]

The first indication that the take off was well within the capability of the aircraft/runway etc. is that Boeing didn't send a B747 test pilot over to fly it out and left it to Atlas.

Yeah, the laws of physics don't apply to test pilots :rolleyes:

[parabellum]

Correct Pug. For those numbers I quoted the V speeds fall into the shaded area and when checking it gives a Vmcg of122kts and a VminVr of 125.
A pure freighter has a Max ZFW of 288tons, a Pax is 244tons Max, this was a converted pax machine.

[parabellum]

Yeah, the laws of physics don't apply to test pilots

You are missing the point ZeBedie, particularly where manufacturers liability and other insurance considerations have to be taken into account.

[skol]

QF attempted to land a 742 at Hughes Airport in LA many years ago, the locals renamed it 'Qantas Field'.

Not too strenuous to tune up the ILS, can save a lot of meetings with the boss.

[twb3]

The fact that there were no casualties and no damage caused by the wrong-airport landing, nor the fact that this is not the first landing at the wrong airport by a professional flight crew, does not in any way diminish the need for an investigation into the cause of the incident, and needed changes for safely improvement.

[Willie Nelson]

We all make mistakes every day, the mistakes I make have not YET been quite as spectacular.

Then again, simply getting airborne in said an aircraft is pretty spectacular. There'll always be a little bit of "tall poppy syndrome" with these sort of incidents.

[olasek]

Yeah, the laws of physics don't apply to test pilots
They do apply to both but test pilots are allowed to do certain things that non-test pilots are prohibited from doing.

[AirportHopper]

Not too strenuous to tune up the ILS, can save a lot of meetings with the boss

Actually, in this case it would have been rather difficult. There is no ILS or localizer for runway 19L at KIAB.

[abdunbar]

I flew with a guy at ******** back in the late 70's. He was on a crew that landed at Biggs AFB instead of El Paso, the month before. It was a pretty funny story. He claimed that there was only one set of runway lights on and they can be controlled from the El Paso tower. They discovered pretty quick what they had done and the controller cleared them to 180 and takeoff the way they came in. The FA's were dinging them and asking "did we land at Biggs?" The Captain denied it and made a PA saying that due to construction they had landed on a part of the airport that was not connected to the terminal, thus neccesitating a take off and landing on another runway. They parked at the gate and the captain told the engineer to erase the voice and data recorders. The agent ask them why they were late and the Captain made something up. They turned around and headed back to DFW.

The only reason they got caught was because of ACARS. They were out/off/on/off/in . They got a few weeks off, Captain more than the fo or fe.
Company said they would have got nothing except for the cover up. The T/O from Biggs was a big mistake because taking off without a dispatch release is a violation of OpSpecs and FAR 121. Captain was lucky to get no certificate action. This was before NASA forms and FAA/Airline issues were often handled over the phone with no paperwork.

[BarnOwl]

When I lived in Melbourne in 1985 a Garuda 747 landed at Essendon (YMEN) R26, 3,600ft, instead of Melbourne (YMML) R27, 7500ft, which was 5 miles away. There was a massive strip-out before it could take off again.

ATSB report:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/31237/aair198501651.pdf

[Wally Mk2]

'Owly' you may want to amend yr comments there buddy, they are completely incorrect. The machine in question made an incorrect App to RWY 35 @EN, not 26 & it never landed so there was no 'strip out' of anything for a T/off. The report you linked shows this.
Just as a side note the then American President LBJ visioned Melbourne before Tullamarine Airport was opened (1970) back in the Mid 60's & Airforce one a B707 back then landed on Rwy 26 I believe causing some damage to the rwy pavement, I think at the time it was the largest A/C to have had arrived at EN.

[xyze]

Barn Owl - the aircraft never landed.

[tdracer]

I think the Atlas pilots were probably in the Teamsters union (yo' Vinnie, youse gotta problem wit dat?). Often these unusual missions are flown by management check airmen who may have a union seniority number but no active union representation.

Airbubba,
Dreamlifter/LCF flights are no longer particularly 'unusual' - they're up to about 100 flights per month (4 LCFs so almost daily per airplane, typical leg ~ 6 hours). They are busy supporting the 787 (10/month rate early next year)

[nitpicker330]

Not only that but YMEN RWY 26 is longer than 3,600'.
Currently it 6,302' and I think it was a little longer back then?

Good story though....:ugh:

[tartare]

Genuine question - is this likely to be a career ender for these guys?
Or a `don't ever do that again' kind of discussion.

[Fatigued Fred]

With so many airfields in such close proximity, was it only a matter of time?

Curious to know why would Jabara have its approach and runway lights on with an aircraft on approach to a neighbouring airport. A Swiss cheese if ever I saw one.

[acroguy]

Curious to know why would Jabara have its approach and runway lights on with an aircraft on approach to a neighbouring airport. A Swiss cheese if ever I saw one.

Maybe because there were other aircraft actually using that airport?

[olasek]

Curious to know why would Jabara have its approach and runway lights on with an aircraft on approach to a neighbouring airport.Because it has to be like this. There may be multiple aircraft on simultaneous approaches/takeoffs at all these airports (there is like 7 of them in the area). Plus Jabara is an uncontrolled airport - pilots usually turn lights remotely (by radio) on such airports and lights stay on for say 20 minutes before a timer switches them off.

[PAXboy]

As an outsider, I have to say that the Dreamliner programme just keeps giving and giving ... :p

[Fatigued Fred]

But nothing from ATC to caution the Crew of an active airfield so close. Tough break.

[meadowrun]

Seems to happen every once in awhile, no matter what the decade. I remember an SAS DC8 landing at Cartierville instead of Dorval in the 60s. Bit difficult to get out of but it all worked out in the end. Once asked Boeing at a B744 meeting when they were going to build a full double decker. Was told it wasn't possible. Maybe not so, pretty close.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/11/21/article-2511166-19914CD000000578-899_634x291.jpg

[Springer1]

"Genuine question - is this likely to be a career ender for these guys?
Or a `don't ever do that again' kind of discussion."


In the Brussels DC-10 incident the Capt was "asked" to retire early, the FO was fired (was a previously demoted 727 Capt), and the FE was allowed to stay.

[pattern_is_full]

It is interesting that the approach plates for Jabara all display the three nearby airports susceptible to confusion......

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/AAO/IAP/ILS+OR+LOC_DME+RWY+18/pdf

...whereas the plates for KIAB do NOT show the three airports that might be overflown on final, and could be confused for McConnell:

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/IAB/IAP/RNAV+(GPS)+RWY+19L/pdf

One wonders why they are depicted in the one case, but not in the other - and whether that will now change.... :E

It never hurts to maintain a little rational paranoia when aviating. The Universe (through its minion, Murphy) is out to get you - if you don't maintain constant vigilance!

[WillowRun 6-3]

Some posters have averred hypocrisy or other malefactions by referring to the perceived 'mistakes happen' paradigm prevalent in the thread, and contrasting it with the systemic weaknesses (rooted in cultural over-deference to seniority) identified relative to the Asiana crash at SFO. To those posters, only a short rejoinder is needed: whereas, in the Asiana crash, hierarchical obsequiance or over-deference appears to have been a large or major causative factor, in the incident discussed in this thread, there is no suggestion at all of any such poor cockpit management. So to raise the Asiana crash cultural factors here is like comparing apples and.....tangerines.

[KKoran]

Currently, 737s are only flown FROM Renton; they do not land there. First flights go to BFI, and subsequent flights operate to/from BFI.
Intruder, they actualy depart Renton to a variety of airports. The greatest number go to Moses Lake (KMWH); others to Paine Field (KPAE). They occasionally go they occasionally go to Boeing Field (KBFI) or other airports.

[Capn Bloggs]

A bit rich there, Willowrun...

Dive and Drive strikes again... had they been following the (non-existent) 3° profile on the LNAV approach, alarm bells would have been going off...

[Cows getting bigger]

Willow, what sort of 'culture' do you think is going-on in the cockpit where the crew are flying an RNAV approach and they manage to land quite a few miles short?

[Torquelink]

Either way, unless the CVR shows total disregard of procedures, my guess would be that the feds will pull their tickets temporarily (and check airman letters if applicable), they will be retrained and put back on the line after sim training and a line check.

So, maybe a silly question, it wasn't the same crew taking it out again?

Also, noticed that the Dreamlifter doesn't have winglets -anyone know why?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

there is no suggestion at all of any such poor cockpit management.

Sure, everything happened the way it was supposed to. Didn't it?

[ExSp33db1rd]

In the "previous incidents" I can't find reference to the BOAC Britannia that landed at Cartierville-v-Dorval. The Brit. taxied round and took off again, and At The Subsequent Court Of Enquiry the Capt. was criticised for that act, and asked why ? Well, he said, I thought Least Said, Soonest Mended.

Amusingly, a student pilot approaching Cartierville thought " BOAC can't be wrong " so he went and landed at Dorval !

[Airclues]

Also, noticed that the Dreamlifter doesn't have winglets -anyone know why?

Winglets are only cost effective on long range flights (over seven hours). On shorter range flights the extra weight negates the fuel savings. If you look at photos of the short range 747-400's operated by JAL and ANA (747-400 Domestic) you will see that they don't have winglets. As the Dreamlifter is only operated on sectors of under seven hours it doesn't need winglets.

[Torquelink]

Thanks Airclues - makes sense. I had wondered if it was more complex than that - different airflows caused by the new fuselage profile etc.

[WillowRun 6-3]

In rebuttal: the point is not that this crew operated in accordance with sound, established, proven procedures (obviously the landing was highly anomolous). Rather the point was only that the contrast some (few) prior posters sought to draw is not fact-based (at least, to the extent posts on this board are factually derived in the immediate aftermath of such incidents). In Asiana, among the situational facts of which the community was quite immediately aware was the fact (or very highly likely fact) that Obsequiousness to PIC syndrome played a materially relevant role. This led to contentions, and/or discussion, and/or controversy, about the Korean civil aeronautics cockpit culture. In Dreamlifter We're Not in the Right Place in Kansas Anymore, whatever set of errors or omissions turn out to have been responsible, thus far, there is no predicate for saying that the junior crewmember was thinking 'this won't end well, but Hot Pants Herbie, I best not say anything about it to the Old Man.' To call a penalty here, on this thread to date, for Hypocrisy, would be like the zebras in Winnipeg last night whistling a Blackhawk or Jet for roughing the passer - the predicate for the call is not part of the facts.

[RobShan]

When I lived in Melbourne in 1985 a Garuda 747 landed at Essendon (YMEN) R26, 3,600ft, instead of Melbourne (YMML) R27, 7500ft, which was 5 miles away. There was a massive strip-out before it could take off again.

ATSB report:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/31237/aair198501651.pdf (When I lived in Melbourne in 1985 a Garuda 747 landed at Essendon (YMEN) R26, 3,600ft, instead of Melbourne (YMML) R27, 7500ft, which was 5 miles away. There was a massive strip-out before it could take off again.

ATSB report:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/31237/aair198501651.pdf)

I must have the report differently; as I read it, the 747 did not land at Essendon but descended to 350' before climbing at the direction of ATC.

[srobarts]

as I read it, the 747 did not land at Essendon but descended to 350' before climbing at the direction of ATC.

I read it that was as well, RobShan. The link in your quote seems to have some extra characters that stop it working.

Hopefully a working link is:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/31237/aair198501651.pdf

[phiggsbroadband]

Of course this could be a publicity stunt by Boeing...

Most people in the cultural areas of the world have never heard of a 'Boeing Dreamlifter', but have a good knowledge of the 'Airbus Beluga'...


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Airbus_A300_Beluga_Pryde.jpg/330px-Airbus_A300_Beluga_Pryde.jpg

[spleener]

Willowrun,
Apologies, but can you say again your last in plain English please?
I became somewhat lost therein.....

[Spooky 2]

Intruder, they actualy depart Renton to a variety of airports. The greatest number go to Moses Lake (KMWH); others to Paine Field (KPAE). They occasionally go they occasionally go to Boeing Field (KBFI) or other airports.

Got news for you. They ALL to to KBFI after having left Renton.

[Self Loading Freight]

We were discussing this incident elsewhere online, and a friend says that a 747 once landed at Jersey Airport (EGJJ) due to a medical emergency. Pax had to be removed in batches to the UK, the seats removed and a minimum fuel t/o followed - with (he says) the aircraft only just making it. He makes it sound like a carrier take-off, with the a/c dipping down as it cleared the end of the runway over the sea.

Jersey has around 5500' of runway, which on the various examples mentioned in this thread doesn't seem that dramatically difficult. I'm having trouble believing that there wouldn't be better places to put down with little time penalty, and I can't find any reference to such an incident anywhere.

Can anyone confirm this?

[xaf2fe]

The 787 wings are built in Nagoya, Japan, and the fuselage in Grottaglie, Italy. The Dreamlifter was built to bring these assemblies to Seattle and Charleston for final assembly. Almost all Dreamlifter flights are long range across the Atlantic and North Pacific.

The airplane is very draggy and they really could use winglets to cut down on the fuel flow, but there were some airflow issues with the enlarged fuselage and it caused some unwanted vibration. That's why they took them off.

[Capn Bloggs]

whatever set of errors or omissions turn out to have been responsible, thus far, there is no predicate for saying that the junior crewmember was thinking 'this won't end well, but Hot Pants Herbie, I best not say anything about it to the Old Man.'
No, Willow, it could actually be far worse than that. Both the dreamlifter crew may well have not had the foggiest about what was going on! Based on your words (?) at least the asian young'n knew something was astray...

[WillowRun 6-3]

@ Capn Bloggs. Yes sir, point well taken, specifically that this incident could turn out to have involved, or has already been revealed as involving, neither pilot knowing what their position was. I don't see a cultural issue in that factual paradigm (or as law profs like to say, "fact pattern"), and certainly not a theme of extreme deference to seniority. Yes, the errors here may be worse, but it isn't hypocrisy to fail to criticize the crew for a flaw they did not exhibit.

@ Spleener. Sir, I will attempt to restate and clarify: it isn't hypocrisy to fail to criticize the crew for a flaw they did not exhibit.

[L-38]

Genuine question - is this likely to be a career ender for these guys?
Or a `don't ever do that again' kind of discussion.The crew will most likely be debriefed, then sent to the sim where they (under intense pressure to save their jobs) will be given a horrific competency check ride designed for them to fail. Once fired, the company will go to the FAA and declare the "problem" corrected.

The sad part is - these fired pilots would be otherwise the last pilots in the world to ever land at a wrong airport again!

[Ozlander1]

So, maybe a silly question, it wasn't the same crew taking it out again?


No, they flew in a new crew from NY. :D

[Capt Claret]

The sad part is - these guys will be the last pilots in the world to ever land at a wrong airport again!

Touch wood it's not me but I doubt it.

[lomapaseo]

No, they flew in a new crew from NY

good thing they didn't come by bus, it probably would broken down as well in this comedy.

I told the wife that I wish they would include something like this in an airplane movie rather than that unrealistic stuff like the movie Flight

[Yancey Slide]

"unrealistic stuff like the movie Flight"

Totally let's not go there.

[Wycombe]

a friend says that a 747 once landed at Jersey Airport (EGJJ) due to a medical emergency

Don't think so, a BA Tristar did do so though once (late '70's IIRC) to clear backlog of pax after a foggy day.

[beech35]

I suspect the reason for the two different approach charts is that one was drafted by AF standards and the other by AeroNav standards. I doubt that either of these charts would have been used by the crew as they would undoubtedly be using Jeppesen charts.

[olasek]

But nothing from ATC to caution the Crew of an active airfield so close
It is really not a business of ATC to warn pilots not to land at wrong airports.

[SeenItAll]

Just as a matter of interest, if you look at the videos of the takeoff roll, it seems to last about 28 seconds -- quite a bit shorter than the usual ~45.

[fireflybob]

Just as a matter of interest, if you look at the videos of the takeoff roll, it seems to last about 28 seconds -- quite a bit shorter than the usual ~45.

Presumably as a result of factors such as full thrust instead of reduced (aka assumed) thrust, higher flap setting and/or reduced weight?

[flarepilot]

olasek


actually it is the business of air traffic control to make sure that a plane of any kind on an IFR clearance is complying with the clearance.

the 747 was cleared for an approach to the air force base

and

the plane didn't comply with that clearance.

not only a moral imperative but a technical one too.


and remember boys and girls, a military airfield in the USA has a beacon which flashes two whites and a green, not just green whitegreen white.

[olasek]

actually it is the business of air traffic control to make sure that a plane of any kind on an IFR clearance is complying with the clearance.
He might have closed his IFR flight plan before, he might have declared "airport in sight" in which case the ATC is done with him. The primary responsibility of ATC is separating the traffic from each other (and separating traffic from terrain when on IFR flight plan) everything else is done on time-available basis.

[Intruder]

The 787 wings are built in Nagoya, Japan, and the fuselage in Grottaglie, Italy. The Dreamlifter was built to bring these assemblies to Seattle and Charleston for final assembly. Almost all Dreamlifter flights are long range across the Atlantic and North Pacific.

The airplane is very draggy and they really could use winglets to cut down on the fuel flow, but there were some airflow issues with the enlarged fuselage and it caused some unwanted vibration. That's why they took them off.
Fuselage center sections are built in CHS.

There are quite a few Dreamlifter flights between CHS and PAE, some stopping at ICT...

Wing flutter problems also led to a redesign of the wing fuel distribution logic.

[flarepilot]

olasek

he might have won the lottery. he might have done alot of things.

but why would an ATP cancel IFR while airborne when going to an airport with a control tower in operation? Tell me.

ATC is not done with you if you call the airport in sight.

cancelling IFR is something else, and he wouldn't have done that, when the Tower at the proper destination would have done it automatically upon landing

[olasek]

but why would an ATP cancel IFR
I did not say that :ugh:
I said the pilot might have cancelled his IFR plan, it is pilot's discretion. Yes, when you report airport in sight and accept landing clearance it is NOT a duty of the ATC to monitor your progress.

[bubbers44]

Just get a visual approach because that doesn't cancel your IFR, it just allows you to deviate from the restrictions of the approach and they are still monitoring you.

[oceancrosser]

Just get a visual approach because that doesn't cancel your IFR, it just allows you to deviate from the restrictions of the approach and they are still monitoring you.

Might that be what got this Atlas crew into this predicament in the first place?

I have not listened to the communications.

[NephewBob]

If ATC hears a scheduled flight number, and you sound confident enough, they will probably assume that the crew had been on that flight before.

There I was, on a severe clear day, in the early '80s, coincidentally at Wichita,KS, the only really close shave I had at landing at the wrong airport.

Coming from Dallas, destination Mid-Continent, Tracon positioned for downwind, kept calling field at 11, 10 then 9 o'clock, and being a young (er) sucker, I accepted the visual. Tight turn to final, could not see any traffic that Twr kept calling, started to think not all ok, but when on short final, seeing a bunch of grey 'airline' jets parked near the end of the runway, we all decided at the same time that we were about to land at McConell AFB!

Quick go around, land at Wichita a few mins later. "Apologies to the Air Force tower" .......No worries, all ready talked to 'em, told them you were doing a practice approach to 19L @ McConnell!" Never heard another word.

My lesson was clear, do not get suckered in if you are not familiar, by ATC or yourself. Nowadays, of course with all the magenta wizbangs, there is less chance. I can't remember the last time someone briefed "visual back up by theILS, any questions? 'Briefings nowadays are not very brief, are done at 200miles out and are mostly irrelevant to the destination'

Finally, I would suggest that visual arrival incidents to the wrong airport are probably on the decrease because in my experience (not really their fault either, we only do in the sim, rarely on line) many 'international airline pilots' could not successfully complete a visual approach if their life depended on it.

[er340790]

Recall a similar story from the 1960s about a 707 (TWA?) that managed to land at RAF Woodford, rather than Manchester Ringway.

Capt asked for taxi instructions to be told that the tower did not have him in sight... 'describe your surroundings'.... 'large camouflaged hangar to the east'.... 'that's Woodford alright!' :}

Off-load pax, strip-out of seats, off-load of fuel and quick hop over to MAN. Problem solved.

Can anyone confirm details???

[Spooky 2]

Looks like this was not the first time Atlas landed at the wrong airport in a 747.
In all fairness these airports were probably not in the FMC NDB and it was strictly a VFR operation.

December 24, 1996 - An Atlas Air 747 bound for Pinal Airpark (MZJ) in Marana, Arizona, mistakenly lands at Avra Valley Airport (AVW). Link. Linky does not work.

[FoxHunter]

OV-1 Mohawk-Seaboard World DC-8 lands at Marble Mountain- Vietnam.m4v - YouTube (http://youtu.be/6bvK6enoQDg)

The F/O was PF, was named VP Flt Ops after Seaboard was bought by Flying Tigers. The Captain retired 15 years later as a B747 Captain

[Pugilistic Animus]

This is one of those historical screw ups that repeats over and over like taking off or landing on the wrong runway or landing on a taxiway.. At least no one has ever landed on the wrong taxiway...:}

[flarepilot]

olasek


atc does have to monitor your progress in order to comply with its mandate, its top priority:

keep IFR traffic apart.


who would know if IFR traffic was being kept apart if atc were not fully aware of all known IFR traffic's location?


and the plane was not on a visual apch, it was cleared for an RNAV/GPS apch...read the first post.

so olasek...the 747 didn't cancel, was still on an IFR clearance and should have been tracked by tracon. Was radar service cxld? I don't think so.

[spekesoftly]

Recall a similar story from the 1960s about a 707 (TWA?) that managed to land at RAF Woodford, rather than Manchester Ringway. Can anyone confirm details??? Sounds remarkably similar to the Pan Am 707 that landed at RAF Northolt instead of Heathrow in 1960.

[parabellum]

Just get a visual approach because that doesn't cancel your IFR, it just allows you to deviate from the restrictions of the approach and they are still monitoring you.

Are you sure about that Bubbers? I ask because my experience of the USA major airports is that when you call that you are visual they almost immediately send you to the tower frequency and I have always believed that from calling visual you are now responsible for your own separation. Do you think approach still monitors your arrival after he has handed you on? At the busy airfields I don't think so. Just my thoughts.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Bubbers is correct regarding visual approaches...you must intentionally cance your IFR plan

[bubbers44]

I have when on an ILS and another airliner overshot final approach helped the tower out by saying we will do a visual to follow since spacing was less than standard since he turned in front of me and was less than three miles when he got back on centerline. Otherwise they would have had to make a go around for someone because we were close in.

[flarepilot]

parabellum


bubbers is right

just being switched to tower doesn't mean you are not IFR anymore...with visual apch clearance or any other apch clearance.

tower is part of ATC, many have radar repeaters or ''bright scopes'' and a direct line to apch control...indeed, at times certain up //down towers only one person is on duty (until they fell asleep that is) and they do it all, apch, dpch, tower, ground etc.


once you are in radar contact, you remain in radar contact until advised (beyond massive failures)


about separation...if you are on a visual apch you have the same responsibilities for see and avoid as any other time in VMC.

there is a little known requirement of ATC which is to point out traffic to all jet powered aircraft

[olasek]

flarepilot - a lot of poppycock.

How many hours of IFR do you have in your logbook because your posts are full of babble that clearly shows some skin-deep knowledge (perhaps from this forum) and nothing more.

ATC controllers are not in fault in this case or in any other similar case when pilot managed to screw up and landed at the wrong airport, no ATC procedures were violated. There was probably clear night, pilot declared runway in sight and he got his clearance, if KIAB was a busy place - the story could have been different with controllers scrambling to provide separation and someone would have noticed something was amiss.

[bubbers44]

Flarepilot has a lot more IFR time than you do, mostly in airliners and knows how everything works in the ATC system because he has shown his knowledge here repeatedly. What have you shown of your supreme knowledge here???

[flarepilot]

you are changing your tune, olasek.

did I ever say: controllers were at fault?

no

and you sure came up with a bunch of PROBABLY:

probably declared runway in sight...even though the first post plainly says they (plane) was cleared for an RNAV/GPS apch.

as far as my qualifications and knowledge, you couldn't touch my experience.


I will happily point you towards the AIM and pilot controller responsibility but you are so out of it as to make me laugh.

[Captaintcas]

Olasek,

A Visual Approach is an IFR procedure.
This is ICAO and basic knowledge by the way.

[olasek]

Yes, although this is the world of FAA, not ICAO and there are differences.

[acroguy]

The way I understand it is that is that the IAF for the intended airport and the FAF for the unintended airport are coincident (on an RNAV approach). The 4000 foot crossing restriction over the IAF put them way below a 3 degree GS for the intended airport, but put them basically on the GS for the unintended airport. They break out and have a runway in front of them with good PAPI indication. The crew transitions to the PAPIs and the rest is history. What the FMS is doing at this point is conjecture, and I will leave it to those more knowledgeable in the specific systems. Is it possible that if WITBA was coded or entered at 4000 in the FMS their vertical deviation indicator on the Primary Flight Display would have shown them on the correct profile at that point?

[MrDK]

phiggsbroadband:

Of course this could be a publicity stunt by Boeing...

Most people in the cultural areas of the world have never heard of a 'Boeing Dreamlifter', but have a good knowledge of the 'Airbus Beluga'...


99% of people outside of those with aviation interest could give a "rats".

I take it that Wales is the cultural center of the world.

[bubbers44]

Olasek

Visual approaches on an IFR approach is still not cancelling your IFR clearance, sorry. Look it up in FARS. You are wrong.

[8driver]

I'm current on the -400 and the -8, and I find it hard to conceive of how this happened. I've also found a copy of the RNAV 19L at McConnell and that only reinforces my belief.

I believe Spooky2 said the approach probably wasn't in the database. If it wasn't in the database how and why would they accept the approach and attempt to fly it? Did they manually enter waypoints and build it themselves? That's not common practice. If it is a common destination for the airline it is most likely in the database. Either way, whether it was in the database or not, vertical guidance would have been available if it had been programmed correctly.

I have looked at the plate, its a no brainer in LNAV/VNAV. Provided they were using LNAV/VNAV, and who wouldn't, on a dark night? Yes, the runway they landed at was in alignment with 19L at McConnell, but NINE miles short. The VNAV would have been commanding a path almost 3000 ft above threshold elevation at that point. Someone else pointed out that the FAF altitude at Jabara and the IAF at McConnell are the same. The altitude at WITBA (the IAF) on the McConnell plate is 4000 ft or ABOVE. Line underneath. I don't have the Jabara plate but if they were in LNAV/VNAV the airplane would have crossed the IAF on a three degree path. I make that to be about 5600 ft based on what I see, assuming the total distance to be 13.9 miles. The copy of the plate I have isn't as clear as it could be. At any rate I make it out to be some altitude above 4000 ft since its nine miles from WITBA to WARUN, another 4.9? to the runway, and the threshold elevation is 1364.

If they crossed WITBA at 4000 feet they were playing dive and drive unless vectored at that altitude and they would have shown below path. Yes I learned that way (dive and drive) in the 80's, yes I taught it to students in light aircraft back then (more time to get the runway in sight), generally flew that in the 90's in SAAB-340s, and even started out that way in DC-8s in the late 90's. But... the visual descent point was coming into use then and the 3 degree slope and stabilized approach were beginning to be emphasized. Also, none of those aircraft had VNAV guidance. I've been on the -400 since 2004 and at my airline dive and drive hasn't been taught since I've been there. I was initially trained to use VS and reference the descent table but we went to full VNAV usage for non-precision approaches shortly after I was hired.

Yes this has happened a lot in the past and in many cases in earlier aircraft without FMS/RNAV capability. If you can have a three degree slope on a night approach (or any approach) in a heavy jet, why not use it? And as another poster pointed out, ND anyone? Prog page? Not feeling bad for anyone, it was not using the resources available that allowed this to happen.

[-JC-]

If they crossed WITBA at 4000 feet they were playing dive and drive unless vectored at that altitude and they would have shown below path.

They were cleared direct to WITBA right after they checked on with Approach Control. When 25 miles from the airport (KIAB) they were cleared for the GPS RNAV runway 19L with the restriction to cross WITBA at 4000. (from the ATC archive).

If WITBA was coded at 4000A you can't keep it on the VNAV PTH and make the the restriction. So what are you going to do ? Take it out of VNAV PTH and go below the profile using LVL CHG or VS ? Or manually change the altitude to 4000 hard and keep it in VNAV PTH all the way down ?

In any event, crossing WITBA at 4000 feet as per the ATC clearance puts you right on centerline and on the PAPI's for runway 18 at Jabara.

Jabara is not displayed on the approach plate, and obviously wasn't in the aircraft FMS database. You're looking at your approach plate, shows one runway. You're looking at your PFD, shows one runway. You look outside, you see a runway and you're on the PAPI's ....

[8driver]

JC-

No need to take it out of VNAV in a -400. Press the button and descend right away in VNAV SPD to 4000 as directed by ATC, then VNAV ALT. Dial the MCP to a lower altitude such as the MDA when on the published segment and altitudes coded in hard font. Path will come in from above and should go to VNAV PATH, if it doesn't press the Alt selector button once and down she goes on path. One way to do it. We deal with that all the time on PC's.

That's great that WITBA puts you on PAPIs for Jabara at 4000 ft, but situational awareness tells you that you are 14 miles from the runway and that altitude is too low to be on PAPI. Prog page shows 14 miles to run, LEGS page shows the same, VNAV path indicator shows fly up, ND depending on scale might not even show the runway and certainly the runway being nowhere near on ND below 1000 ft might be a clue.

I would guess they didn't use the VNAV, and went visual flying raw data and disregarding everything inside. Pilot monitoring?

[bubbers44]

Looking outside the window and descending on a normal profile always worked for me. Looking inside the window was just to check airspeed. I guess we had a different way of flying.

[8driver]

For heavens sake Bubbers, take your head out of the sand. You have a perfectly good device based on GPS that shows you 14 miles from the field. Does 2600 AGL on a PAPI at that position seem like a "normal" profile? Did you also ignore the DME for a VOR located at the destination airport because it was inside when checking your profile? How about compass locators? Welcome to Jabara.

[Jetjock330]

PA Bubbers is correct regarding visual approaches...you must intentionally cance your IFR plan

Incorrect. The last piece of an ILS approach is flown from minimum, visually between 200 and touch down (Visual Segment). The same for the VOR approach and this is known as the visual segment of the instrument approach. The same for a circling approach. Once reaching minimums, you circle the visual segment of the instrument approach procedure. Now if you see the runway above minimum and continue visually, you are still flying a visual segment of the instrument approach, you do not cancel IFR to fly visual segment of the instrument procedure!


A good friend of mine flies this very Dreamlifter and is operating the very said one in the coming days. I also learn't that as the tail swings open to load cargo, there is no APU on the Dreamlifter. The cargo hold is not pressurised, and the cockpit sits on top of the chemical toilet system, hence a strong pong on a warm day, due no APU air conditioning. So after they landed and shut down, they would be a little stuck without immediate ground power.

[BOAC]

Looking outside the window and descending on a normal profile always worked for me. - yes, it seems to have worked for this crew too:ugh:

[billabongbill]

bubbers44

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 2,331
Looking outside the window and descending on a normal profile always worked for me. Looking inside the window was just to check airspeed. I guess we had a different way of flying.


I think that was exactly what the Atlas crew of the Dreamlifter did! Looked out the window, saw the runway, all looked good and employed their vastly superior stick and rudder skills...landing onto such a strip certainly needed that. What went wrong? Simple! They weren't as lucky as bubbers who led a charmed life!

[Heathrow Harry]

Not sure they had McConnell GPS co-ordinates entered or even to hand -

if you listen to the recording of the conversation after some confusion as to the fact that they are stopped but the tower can't see them he asks McConnel

"what are the co-ordinates for your airfield?"

he than copies them and after a short pause says

"looks like we're 6 miles away"

[Capt Fathom]

If their descent profile was based on McConnell, there must have been a significant vertical adjustment made when they spotted Jabara.

Got to say some interesting flying that culminated in that landing!

[Callsign Kilo]

I suppose we can add this to the list of the unfortunate occurrences of the Dreamliner program!

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

If you want the local gossip "straight out of the horse's mouth", here are a couple of stories from the local newspaper, The Wichita Eagle....

Wayward Dreamlifter captivates the Air Capital | Wichita Eagle (http://www.kansas.com/2013/11/21/3132439/dreamlifter-lands-at-jabara-airport.html)

NTSB opens investigation into Dreamlifter&#x2019;s wrong landing | Wichita Eagle (http://www.kansas.com/2013/11/22/3135294/ntsb-opens-investigation-into.html)

[Andy_S]

I suppose we can add this to the list of the unfortunate occurrences of the Dreamliner program!

You are aware of the type of aircraft that landed at Jabara, aren't you?

[Tacitus]

I wont argue on how they landed at the wrong airport but those guys must be really good pilots, besides that mistake of course. They managed to land such a massive plane on a narrow, 6000 ft runway:ok: ....I think that should have been mentioned. Thanks and wish them good luck from now on

[Capn Bloggs]

Not sure they had McConnell GPS co-ordinates entered or even to hand -
Might have been on the end of the waypoint list of the RNAV approach they were allegedly doing...

[bubbers44]

I didn't say I routinely do a visual by just looking out the window and cross checking airspeed, just that it is quite simple to do it that way if you do not have GPS, DME, GS, LOC, etc. It is called pilotage, something rarely taught to the new guys and looking at this thread, never learned by many.

[flarepilot]

jetjock


semantics...while an ILS (cat 1 for example) does have a visual component it is not a clearance for a visual approach.

A Visual approach clearance does not cancel an IFR clearance..that's the point and bubbers is right.


as to the concerns about a visual apch, I am sure bubbers means that if you have the correct airport in sight (pilotage) a visual apch should be a part of every pilot's capability.


wondering out loud: would you rather crash at the right airport or land beautifully at the wrong airport...Asiana at SFO...boy those guys would have loved to land at jabara or a wrong airport!


Sadly, there are only three airports in the USA that I wouldn't have to check/crosscheck with other navigation aids for a purely visual approach.

SFO
DCA
LGA

they are just unique to the max.

and it would be really nice for someone to post the RNAVY/GPS apch plate on this thread

[flarepilot]

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1312/00453R19L.PDF

above is link to rnav apch to air base


it seems to me that an ATC instruction to cross WITBA the IAF at 4000' would put the airplane over the jabbara airport at 4000'


and since ATC has to know where IFR traffic is, the apch control must have been too busy to see that the airplane was very low at the witba/IAF fix.

wondering why the MSAW wasn't working or ignored.


oh, and here is a bit of interesting things...the runway at jabbara is runway 18...if the pilots had seen the number and it wasn't 19left..an early oops might have been available.


and the real kicker...19r at the air force base has an ILS

[DIBO]

to cross WITBA the IAF at 4000' would put the airplane over the jabbara airport at 4000'WITBA at 4000' puts you close to DEYEK FAF for Jabara (at 3000'), pretty well in the Jabara 18 centreline at 186° and in the Jabara approach lights & PAPI.

The plane came in from Italy via New York. Was it the same crew? Fatigue starting to kick in?

[Desert185]

I think we all can agree that if you have it, you should use it. ILS, RNAV, DME, VOR, eyeballs outside, common sense, etc. Brief the arrival/approach, whether visual with an ILS back or whatever, every single time. Good habits, practice and personal capability/skills makes for less errors during the flight.

Some errors are more egregious and unforgivable than others, but we all make mistakes one way or another. My goal was to not land at the wrong airport, no tail strikes, no pod strikes, no gear up landings, no nav errors overwater, no violations and generally not dent aluminum or bruise bodies. So far, so good, but I am human...

Maybe the children of the magenta line and the steam gauge guys/gals should get together and compare notes? It all begins with a good chief pilot and a good training center. Good luck with that, eh?

[Pugilistic Animus]

Jetjock330 what did i say wrong?....if you intentionally cancel your IFR clearance you are no longer IFR.

[pattern_is_full]

oh, and here is a bit of interesting things...the runway at jabbara is runway 18...if the pilots had seen the number and it wasn't 19left..an early oops might have been available.


At night, at what distance and altitude do you think the runway number would have been visible and readable in the landing lights?

You can skip forward to about 2:30 in the video

King Air 350 Night Landing Cockpit View - YouTube

[-JC-]

it seems to me that an ATC instruction to cross WITBA the IAF at 4000' would put the airplane over the jabbara airport at 4000'

Actually WITBA is 6.6nm north of Jabara. I wonder why ATC requires such a low restriction so far out on this approach ? WITBA is 13.9nm from the threshold of 19L and 4000 feet asl is 2636 feet above threshold elevation. Listening to the tape the controller clearly says "at" 4000 feet, but I'm wondering if they really meant "at or above" ?

Also the way the plate depicts the vertical profile of the approach it makes it look like the 3.02 degree slope intersects WITBA at 4000 feet.

It will be interesting to know what exactly they had in their FMS database ? But from what I've seen so far it looks like ATC and the published approach and charts did a nice job of setting them up for failure.

[flarepilot]

oops...misread the distance...witba is farther north of jabbara...and that's fine

BUT

the faf is about 5 miles from the air base and past jabbara and you are to cross at or above 3000'...that alone is the clue to me that the crew didn't have the apch up or correct...it is all too easly to just say, :don't bother tuning the radios or entering the apch, I have the field in sight.

but he had the wrong field in sight

as to the amount of time to see the numbers 18 vs 19L, using a king air video isn't very accurate...but there was between 10 seconds and 5 seconds after seeing the numbers before touchdown.


the crew saw a runway and went for it. and contrary to what pattern is full and his video show...there are adequate final apch/visual cues to the runway.

190 degrees is surely different than 180 degrees (actually the difference is 181 vs 187)

but you can see the numbers before touchdown


and the big thing is still a rotating beacon at night shows white / green for a civil airfield and white white green for a military field.


the crew could have asked for apch lights to be turned on full bright as a confirmation of correct runway

[Intruder]

Intruder, they actualy depart Renton to a variety of airports. The greatest number go to Moses Lake (KMWH); others to Paine Field (KPAE). They occasionally go they occasionally go to Boeing Field (KBFI) or other airports.
kkoran:

I seldom see 737s in PAE. I see LOTS of them at BFI.

While they may fly east and possibly do touch & goes at MWH, they normally land at BFI, where the customer delivery center is. While things may have changed since I left Boeing in 1998, their goal then was that the initial flight would be the ONLY Boeing flight (i.e., no squawks), and the 2nd flight would be the delivery flight.

[mary meagher]

Seems to me that the Dreamlifter crew were quite happy that the runway before them was correct....

Certainly their handflying skills cannot be faulted. Magenta line navigators
do quite rightly insist that navaids if available should be used to the max. I remember how delighted I was to pay big bucks for one of the first GPS systems, installed in my single seat glider - no more getting lost, I thought....
and yet, the old training of landmarks and following motorways still came in handy when I had programmed in W instead of E for the coordinates...you chaps in the USA didn't have to worry about that one! When the sun is distinctly declining abeam when it should be behind you, you may have a problem with your nav equipment....

Among all the delightful examples cited in this entertaining thread is mentioned an airliner that aimed for Heathrow and ended up at Northolt Military Airbase - a lot shorter than required for the subsequent departure which badly frightened some lorries on the M40 .....

A glider pilot of my acquaintance was intending to fly from Hinton in the Hedges to Wycombe Air Park. Navigation simples, just follow the aforementioned M40. And WAP will appear beside the motorway. So he followed the M40, and landed at an airfield which turned out to be Northolt.
The Northolt chaps were very friendly and welcoming, and even agreed to arrange for a glider tow plane to retrieve the hapless pilot, however LHR permission would be required. Northolt controller phones up LHR. Asks permission for a glider to be retrieved back to Hinton from Northolt

"WHAT GLIDER!!!!!" Heathrow director was not amused.

The glider went home by road.

[bubbers44]

Getting a visual approach vs canceling IFR keeps your missed approach procedure intact if needed. You may be able to land VFR but can you go around VFR?

Landing at RNO one day in a B737 with 1500 overcast doing an NDB approach on short final was told to go around so asked if they wanted me to do the published missed approach. They said yes so did the left turn and half way through the turn they told me to stop my turn. Knowing I was in the clouds heading for high terrain close in asked for a heading. They did not give me one so I continued the turn. The LOC was inop and they forgot the MA was different. The airplane before us didn't clear the runway.

[bubbers44]

TGU, my favorite airport, had no DME, no GS, no LOC and our 757 had no GPS 90 percent of the time. Amazingly with my head in the sand had over 600 uneventful landings. Looking out the window landing at what many consider the most dangerous jet airliner airport in the world.

[West Coast]

Blubbers hit on my chief concern about visual approaches below a layer, accept the visual and lose the missed approach segment.

[West Coast]

Perhaps you missed my point. Having those AIM restrictions placed upon me is a major concern. A visual approach at night into a mountain airport such as ASE or EGE and you go around, I have no desire (nor wil I ) enter a VFR traffic pattern as directed by the VFR tower, which is exactly what they'll tell you to do. I will remain on the IAP and own the missed approach. No worrying about legalities at a time like that.

[bubbers44]

Sometimes doing a visual allows you to avoid a cell at your intercept of final so why fly through it if you can get a visual and avoid it? I don't think that would take away your missed approach procedure requiring you to fly through it. That would be really stupid.

[West Coast]

OK 465

Incorrect.

There is a special LOC DME 15 that is flown at night, there is no daytime restriction on it. In addition, my company has an FMS visual approach (proprietary) into ASE that many crews fly day and night. I won't fly it at night unless the I-ASE is down and forces me to, even then, I'm quite nervous. Some of the fractional operators also have special IAP's that they fly at night to get in, often with mins far lower than the LOC DME 15.

It's not all about public approaches.

One of the 3 approaches we fly into EGE have a night restriction, a public approach.

[West Coast]

Blubbers

There's no gray area. If you accept a visual approach clearance, you lose the missed approach procedure. Suppose you could always fly it and deal with the consequences later, something I'd likely do if terrain was a concern.

This being the situation in the US, can't speak if other countries handle things differently. In your situation, you have to judge what's the greater threat and make your decision.

[West Coast]

Flight operations is aware of my reservations. Unfortunately mine is but one voice out of the few dozen that maintain the special aircrew qualification for ASE.

[Jetjock330]

Jetjock330 what did i say wrong?....if you intentionally cancel your IFR clearance you are no longer IFR.
Bubbers is correct regarding visual approaches...you must intentionally cance your IFR plan

It was a misunderstanding of the statements, which seemed to say that to continue visually you needed to cancel IFR, which is incorrect.

If we continue visually into Chicago or Sydney from an ILS and we go-around, we comply with the missed approach procedure for that approach to that runway.

Semantics, I think I would agree

[West Coast]

Splitting hairs, visual approach and proceeding visually aren't the same in your ORD example. If you accept a visual approach into ORD, you no longer have authorization to fly the missed approach of the IAP you might have started out on. That said, ATC in ORD will likely issue a heading and altitude to fly. If your FOM, SOP or some other guiding document says to fly the missed of an approach even on a visual approach, all the better. When the FAA comes knocking, you can fall back on the document as requiring it and the heat will be on the company as opposed to a crew member, as it should be.

[Jetjock330]

Visual segments, visual approaches are different things, I agree. So far on the go arounds in JFK and ORD, LHR, CDG and others places, ATC has stepped in quickly with radar vectored changes as mentioned.

Back to the story but had these guys relied on continuing to minimums on management flight path as if the weather was low, I believe there would be a different outcome. Early disengagement of automation/ and transfer to visual sold them out.

Surely the ATC would also step in and ask why they were low so far out or could make out they were getting it wrong earlier???

[Check Airman]

as to the amount of time to see the numbers 18 vs 19L, using a king air video isn't very accurate...but there was between 10 seconds and 5 seconds after seeing the numbers before touchdown.

....

190 degrees is surely different than 180 degrees (actually the difference is 181 vs 187)

but you can see the numbers before touchdown

In my plane, the landing lights only illuminate the ground in the last 100-150 feet. After the fact, it's plainly obvious to you, but you don't expect us to believe that you ALWAYS check the runway numbers just before you flare...

and the big thing is still a rotating beacon at night shows white / green for a civil airfield and white white green for a military field.

At the airports at which I have been based, one has to make a considerable effort to see the beacon. At more than a few airports here in the US, if you don't know where the beacon is, you probably won't see it. Further more, do you routinely make sure the beacon is giving you the correct sequence of flashes?

the crew could have asked for apch lights to be turned on full bright as a confirmation of correct runway

Is this something you do on a regular basis? Ask the tower to fiddle with the lights so you can be sure?


I don't know how many night time visuals some people here have performed, but contrary to popular belief, most aren't particularly difficult or dangerous. Our manuals require us to back up ALL visual approaches with a suitable navaid. A fairly robust procedure, and good sense in my opinion.

Instead of clutching at straws by talking about runway numbers and airport beacons, I'm more curious about their deviation from the RNAV approach.

I think somebody may have hit the nail on the head earlier...The approach had a level segment, which is not unusual. The plate had one runway, the ND had one runway, and when they broke out, the saw a runway with an on-slope PAPI.

I'm interested to know what the ND was showing each pilot.

To the 744 pilots, if both FD's are off, will the ND/PFD show the VNAV vertical deviation indicator?

[Check Airman]

Back to the story but had these guys relied on continuing to minimums on management flight path as if the weather was low, I believe there would be a different outcome. Early disengagement of automation/ and transfer to visual sold them out.

We can't win, can we? Leave the AP on, and we're labelled as children of the magenta. Now we have a crew that seemed to have disconnected the automatics, and somebody suggests that they should have left the AP on longer...

So would you prefer your crew watch the AP crash the airplane, or have your crew screw up in an attempt to maintain their skills? From one extreme to the next...

[flarepilot]

check airman

I do check things like rotating beacons, runway numbers (on takeoff and landing) and I have had the tower or pilot controlled lighting adjust lights for identification or other reasons.

the question is why don't you?


making use of other electronic aids is quite useful too.

[The Ancient Geek]

Sometimes we see what we are expecting to see and do not ask questions.
Approach handed them over to tower, they broke cloud and saw runway lights and a PAPI.
Sometimes we see what we want to see.

Was the correct runway maybe obscured by cloud ?

[phiggsbroadband]

How they missed the clue that there were two runways at their destination amazes me... The clue was in the description.... 19L i.e. there was a 19R as well.

Their GPS should have shown there to be either one or two runways, but I suppose they just zoomed into the first runway that came into view on their screens.

The 6 degrees difference in runway orientation was not so much of a clue...

[DIBO]

missed the clue that there were two runways at their destination
Well, there were 2 rwy's, but then again NOT
m0567/13 notamr m0556/13
q) /qmrlc
a) kiab
b) 201309241529
c) 201312152359
e) runway 01l/19r closed. All approaches to runway
01l/19r unavailable.
Their mind was probably set to only one N-S rwy at destination


And let's expand the list of 'obvious' clues they should not have missed:
- before Mc C 19's you overfly the whole E. suburb; at Jabara 18 it's farmland
- Jabara has MALSR approach lights i.o. the ALSF-1 they should look for.
- the massive apron just to the left of the threshold at Mc C.
- at least one KC-135 should be spotted at Mc C.
- any locals can complement this list with Burger Kings to be spotted before touching down?
:ugh:

[The Ancient Geek]

All of your extra clues depend on the crew being familiar with their destination.

They saw what they wanted to see and that was good enough after a long and tiring flight.

This is a common phenomenon - for example how many motorcyclists have been killed by drivers who looked to see if a car was coming before pulling out. (thousands).

We are all human and we make the usual human errors, this is partly due to the way our brains work.

[Hotel Tango]

Jeez, is this still going on? It's now history. The a/c has subsequently departed. Let's move on.

[xraydice]

Jeez, is this still going on? It's now history. The a/c has subsequently departed. Let's move on. ---------------- not until the discovery or other tv co makes the documentary ( with added hype and dramatizations )

[Ct.Yankee]

"there but for the grace of.............."
Wake up 0630am, kids getting ready for school, work in yard all morning, around 3pm take nap, 4pm neighbor gets leaf blower going, nap ends, oh well, it's only a 3hrs flight, 7pm dinner with family, 8pm start packing, shower, etc, 10pm say good byes to family and leave for the 90 mins+ drive to JFK, get to ops around midnite, usual stuff, then wait for ride to the jet, 2am takeoff, finally, 6th cup of coffee, 2hrs. and 6 more cups later brief for arrival, hey, no sweat, hotel bed is less than 90 mins away, wow look to our left and see runway, final check, line up on runway, hmmm?? oh well, lights must be off on ramp, Gov. closed again, 'nice landing Capt.' wow auto brakes off, push those pedals! WTF??? Typical night for "freight dogs" 'this is the life you have chosen!'

[valvanuz]

This flight landed at 9:30 pm. So much for an all-niter! Well, must have been a short night for the crew but for other reasons :rolleyes:

[aterpster]

Check Airman:

We can't win, can we? Leave the AP on, and we're labelled as children of the magenta. Now we have a crew that seemed to have disconnected the automatics, and somebody suggests that they should have left the AP on longer...

So would you prefer your crew watch the AP crash the airplane, or have your crew screw up in an attempt to maintain their skills? From one extreme to the next...

It's not either, or. The RNAV IAP in question, correctly hand-flown without any automatics would have resulted in landing at the correct airport on the correct runway.

[Check Airman]

Aterpster,

I agree with you. A properly flown rnav approach would not have led to this. I was just pointing out that the PF was probably trying to keep his handling skills sharp when this happened.

[EEngr]

Any problems with the GPS system? All satellites up and running, WAAS operational?

[KiloMikePapa]

Can't help but wonder if KBEC was mentioned as an alternate on the recovery flight's flight plan out of Jabara. Just in case of :}

Can't help but feel sorry for the guys that landed the flying Quasimodo at Jabara. Imagine their feelings once it sunk in they landed a bit short...

[SV_741_India_Bravo]

One airport worker was quoted as saying an airplane landed 5 minutes before the dreamlifter at Jabara due to which PCL was still on and probably led them to this.

for those talking about the beacon, how comfortable would you be waiting to count the flashes in a 744 while on final for a brightly lit runway? I know waiting for the white white green (and another round for confirmation) seems like an eternity in my 152.

[flarepilot]

india bravo

you might want to check the AIM for the time it takes to make the flashes.

IF you have properly tuned, and identified an ILS or LDA or SDF or VOR or used any of the other magic nav systems and are navigating via radio nav that's fine, you don't have to count the flashes.

But if you are just looking out the window, and not exactly following radio or rnav or satnav, you better count the flashes.


I grew up flying in an area with multiple airports...I mean 11 airports within 25 nm. You better know where you are and where you are about to land.

[jettinalot]

The dreamlifter does up to 11 hour legs. Italy to Witchita , Seattle to Japan , ect. The reason it does not have winglets ( nice catch ) , is that when the tail is fully open for loading , it goes out over the wing , so better to have none than one.

[Ozlander1]

The dreamlifter does up to 11 hour legs. Italy to Witchita , Seattle to Japan , ect. The reason it does not have winglets ( nice catch ) , is that when the tail is fully open for loading , it goes out over the wing , so better to have none than one.
Tail only opens around 90* and isn't long enough to reach the wingtip. I've seen it open several times.

[SMOC]

The winglets were removed due to a flutter issue discovered during post mod flight test.

Although details remain scarce, Boeing says the test team is tackling vibration issues that have led to the removal of the winglets from the first Dreamlifter test aircraft (RT876). Flutter tests, provisionally expected to have been completed by now, were still under way as of 7 December.

[tdracer]

SMOC is correct - the winglets were removed during the LCF flight tests due to flutter vibrations. They originally tried to blame the vibrations on the engines - even replaced one even though we were telling them engine was operating just fine.

Winglets on the 747-400 don't really help much anyway - so no great loss (they're basically too small). The raked wing tips (777-300ER/787/747-8) work far better.

[JPJP]

Olasek -

flarepilot - a lot of poppycock.

How many hours of IFR do you have in your logbook because your posts are full of babble that clearly shows some skin-deep knowledge (perhaps from this forum) and nothing more.

ATC controllers are not in fault in this case or in any other similar case when pilot managed to screw up and landed at the wrong airport, no ATC procedures were violated. There was probably clear night, pilot declared runway in sight and he got his clearance, if KIAB was a busy place - the story could have been different with controllers scrambling to provide separation and someone would have noticed something was amiss.


Olasek,

You are a GA pilot who flies a 172. Yet you continue to harangue and argue about subjects that you have no direct experience with.

Your continuous squealing over an inconsequential 170 foot rounding error in the Asiana 777 thread - yet you've never flown the approach, never flown a turbine powered aircraft and the closest you've come to SFO is living in Oakland. Your assertion in this thread that no Boeing aircraft has an automated go around capability ...... The list continues.

The fact that I can remember your screen name is not a positive sign. Since it seems to be constantly connected to you arguing about things that you have little experience with. At the moment you're stridently arguing with a Captain at a major US airline; He's probably familiar with a visual approach from an Instrument procedure. Yes, we can all get it wrong, but in this case he's correct

I absolutely welcome any contribution from any level of pilot. However, perhaps some moderation of your "rigorous" (to quote you) debate would be in order.

[SeenItAll]

The funny thing here is that these guys don't seem to have understood that they landed at the wrong airport until they couldn't find the appropriate runway turn-off -- and their voices were initially rather nonchalant. Not what you would expect if they had just been standing on the brakes in terror.

What do you suppose the DFDR will say about the landing roll at Jabara? Given that they were expecting to land at McConnell on a 12,000 foot runway (or about 11,000 feet after the touchdown zone), would it be reasonable for them to have planned to apply only moderate braking (or autobraking)?

If that was the case, then might they not be in world of hurt landing on a 6110 foot runway, with maybe only 5000 feet remaining after the touchdown zone? How quickly would they need to realize that the end of the runway was approaching much sooner than expected to get on the brakes in time? Or must they (fortuitiously) have had the autobrake set up for a sharper than normal stop? If so, they were pretty lucky.

[flarepilot]

remember, runway lighting will show different colors indicating the end is near. someone might even place a color representation of runway lights (and or other lights) indicating the end of the runway is coming !!!

[bubbers44]

Landing on that runway was not a big deal because they only needed half of the intended runway to land on. Our base when I was an airline pilot was SNA which was 5700 ft long. They had no problem stopping but explaining was the problem. With modern day avionics which we rarely had it seems impossible to land at the wrong airport. Guess they proved us wrong.

[Burnie5204]

Flarepilot. I cant find an image apart from a quite poor one in CAP637.

Red and White alternating centreline - for the last 900m of any runway equipped for LVOs as far as...
Solid red centreline - for the last 300m of any runway equipped for LVOs.

[Lonewolf_50]

Untitled Page (http://www.ntsb.gov/AviationQuery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001208X07902&ntsbno=FTW97IA187&akey=1)
(Continental lands 737 at wrong airport, Corpus Christi, Tx, 1997).

Back when I was fledgling, early 80's, that landing field was where the T-44 King Airs that the Navy used for multi-engine training did their bounce work. CRP is a few miles to the west. CRP is right next to the refineries and the interstate highway. The Navy OLF is not. When I heard about this from some friends who lived there, at the time, I laughed. The routing in from Houston to Corpus on that milk run is dead simple, coming down the airway.
On May 11, 1997, at 1021 central daylight time, Continental Airlines flight 1760, a Boeing 737-524, landed at the wrong airport near Corpus Christi, Texas.
The 5 crew members and 49 passengers were not injured. The aircraft was being operated as a scheduled domestic passenger flight under the provisions of Title 14 CFR Part 121. Visual meteorological conditions existed at the time, and an instrument flight plan was on file for the flight. The flight departed Houston, Texas, about 0932, with a destination of Corpus Christi International Airport (CRP), Corpus Christi, Texas.

The flight crew reported to the NTSB investigator-in-charge that the First Officer had completed the ground and simulator difference training for the Boeing 737-300/500 series aircraft, and Continental Flight 203 from Newark International Airport (EWR), Newark, New Jersey, to (George Bush) Houston Intercontinental Airport (IAH), Houston, Texas, was the first flight of his initial operating experience (IOE) for differences training in the aircraft.
The Captain was the check airman conducting the training.

It was decided that the Captain would fly this first leg so the First Officer "could get adjusted to the 737-300 cockpit's normal routine since he hadn't actually flown for about three weeks." The First Officer was then to fly the second leg from Houston to Corpus Christi International Airport (CRP), Corpus Christi, Texas. The First Officer mentioned to the Captain that he had never been to that airport and the Captain said the last time he "had been in there was a little over three years ago."

Snip Snip

The flight crew did not properly identify the localizer for Runway 31 via the audio Morse code signal.
As with the event in this current thread, nobody hurt, just some egg in the face.

[BARKINGMAD]

And to think that I got laughed at by my fellow LHS aces because everywhwere I went in the magentawizz equipped NG, I had the landing runway in Fix Page 1 with a 10 mile range ring for extra S A?

And criticised for so doing by line trainer on a checkride and told don't encourage my F/Os to try it for increased S A!!!

We're all human and fallible, so how come that sort of "constructive criticism" is churned out by "training" staff?!

Ah well, back to the knitting, it's getting cold outside.........:rolleyes:

[flarepilot]

thanks for pointing out the non split beacon...when I first read they intended to land at an air force base, I left it at that...it is a joint use base/civil airport...so be it..

but there are two things to note...we are human and failable

and

they simply did not fly the rnav approach correctly, or else the airplane would have been higher over the jabara airport.

oh well, a lesson to us all...be careful and then be paranoid

[acroguy]

they simply did not fly the rnav approach correctly, or else the airplane would have been higher over the jabara airport.

oh well, a lesson to us all...be careful and then be paranoid

Well, they clearly didn't fly the approach correctly or they wouldn't have found themselves at the wrong airport. However, they were given a 4000 ft crossing restriction at the IAF, which is pretty darn low that far from the intended airport. So, at that point, they were exactly where they were supposed to be, per their clearance.

[flarepilot]

the at or above 4000' is on the apch, a published part of the procedure...a link to the apch plate is on a previous page of the thread.

[acroguy]

the at or above 4000' is on the apch, a published part of the procedure...a link to the apch plate is on a previous page of the thread.

But if you listen to the recording, they were given the crossing restriction at the IAF AT 4000', not at or above. May have been a mistake on ATC's part, but that was the clearance.