Boeing 747 Dreamlifter lands at wrong airport

[Ozlander1]

In addition, the airport beacon at McConnell does not have a white-white 'split' beacon according to the AFD. Evidently not all mil/joint fields now do.

I noticed that last night, no split.
Also, the X is gone from the west runway, so I assume it is now operational and the ILS's are in service. Approach lights for 1L were on dim last night and then off later. :D

[bubbers44]

If the controller said cross at 4,000 ft rather than 4,000 or above had nothing to do with the accident. Some how they managed to land at the wrong airport because of poor navigation usage. They just screwed up so sometimes that happens. I am sure they will get a lot of sim time before being back flying. End of problem.

[aterpster]

bubbers44:


If the controller said cross at 4,000 ft rather than 4,000 or above had nothing to do with the accident. Some how they managed to land at the wrong airport because of poor navigation usage. They just screwed up so sometimes that happens. I am sure they will get a lot of sim time before being back flying. End of problem.
Do Altas crews have a union?


If so, I would think the PIC would be reduced to F/O for 12-18 months. If no union I think they would be looking for work.

[bubbers44]

Aterpster, you are probably right. We had a captain I flew with but not on this flight make an incredibly stupid approach into SNA in the 80's who destroyed a B737 because he refused a go around but since we had a union he was made an FO for a year because of the union. He was a lousy FO too. I flew in the jump seat and he was totally useless. Unions are great but sometimes they protect people that should be shown the door to leave.

[Spooky 2]

I believe that ATLAS has been an ALPA carrier for some time now and I see no reason that these guys should get fired or even demoted. Sim check and what ever the FAA has in mind will be more than adequate assuming there are not other problems hiding in their folders.

Certainly don't recall TWA firing the Capt that landed his 707 at the wrong airport in Ohio many years ago.

[MarkerInbound]

They decertified ALPA and joined the Teamsters a few years ago.

[Spooky 2]

Good for them.

Atlas is a well run operation with an enviable safety record, especially when you consider the nature of a lot of their flying. This crew does not need to be sacrificed just to make an example of them. The media had a field day with this mainly because of the Boeing Dream Liner connection. Believe me there have been dozens of wrong airport landings here in the US and abroad with similar non event results.

[West Coast]

They don't have a history of firing for operational issues. Admittedly this one was front and center with the media. A friend scraped a pod and took out some runway lights in Africa, along with some minor flap damage, still employed. There was some retraining of course.

[DozyWannabe]

At the risk of throwing the cat among the pigeons, I can't help but wonder if the recent posts would be as supportive if Boeing had contracted the delivery to, say, a South Korean operator...

[West Coast]

Hypotheticals serve a purpose before a course of action, they don't after.

[NWstu]

We had a captain I flew with but not on this flight make an incredibly stupid approach into SNA in the 80's who destroyed a B737 because he refused a go around but since we had a union he was made an FO for a year because of the union. He was a lousy FO too. I flew in the jump seat and he was totally useless. Unions are great but sometimes they protect people that should be shown the door to leave. Might it have been this (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19810217-2) incident?

[stilton]

'At the risk of throwing the cat among the pigeons, I can't help but wonder if the recent posts would be as supportive if Boeing had contracted the delivery to, say, a South Korean operator... '


No cat, no pigeons, when you don't kill people it makes a world of difference, this was an innocent mistake.

[hifly787]

First HONEST MISTAKE then INNOCENT MISTAKE
Lets wind up !

[Aluminium shuffler]

It is a sad but consistent trend - if an American crew cock up, it's an innocent mistake and invariably a combination of external mitigating factors with the crew to be sympathised with, but if anyone else makes a mistake they're branded as incompetent, dangerous and a scourge.

The US have as much of a cultural issue when flying as any other region, and just like any other region, most of their pilots are probably just fine, with only a minority suffering a stereo-typed fault. In the case of of the far east and increasingly in the EU, there is an over reliance on avionics. In the US, there is an abundance of over-confidence and gashness, and looking at the amount of landing incidents following visual approaches or long visual segments after instrument approaches demonstrates it well.

Now, given that so many Yanks lambasted the Asiana crew for being a few feet too low to get away with it, how can so many of the same group defend a crew that landed miles out of position? Just because they were lucky enough not to have caused any deaths does not excuse the serious lack of airmanship in this case. They were luckier, not better.

[Crabman]

Now, given that so many Yanks lambasted the Asiana crew for being a few feet too low to get away with it, how can so many of the same group defend a crew that landed miles out of position? Just because they were lucky enough not to have caused any deaths does not excuse the serious lack of airmanship in this case. They were luckier, not better.

The Atlas crew managed to put it on a runway, something that the Asiana crew, sadly, did not.

[Cows getting bigger]

.... and in one sentence Crabman reinforces Aluminium shuffler's point. :ugh:

[Dawdler]

No injuries, no damage, but a great deal of embarrassment all round. This sort of thing has happened before and will no doubt occur again. The case given below has its similarities, but the guy in question did actually make it to the correct airport.
AAIB Aircraft Accident Report 3/94 - Boeing 737-2Y5A, 9H-ABA, London Gatwick, 20 Oct 1993 (http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/content/bookDetails.php?bookId=1292)

I'm surprised the same thing hasn't happened at Mahon. Two airfields more or less side by side.

[flarepilot]

Amazing...comparing asiana and the dreamlifter.

amazing not noticing the difference in airports.


amazing not noticing the fact that the dreamlifter could be used again without major mx and the asiana was totaled.

yes, the dreamlifter crew made some big mistakes


but the asiana crew made the costliest in terms of death, hundreds of injuries, and property.

In previous posts I mentioned that there were only three airports in the USA that I would feel comfortable doing purely visual (no electronic aids) approaches and I included San Francisco.

I wouldn't have trusted just my eyes for Wichita, yes.

But the asiana crew and its mistakes is beyond just a few feet, it is gross incompetence in airmanship (keeping the plane flying).


the atlas crew made a navigational mistake of a high order, but no where near the asiana crew.

comparing the two is nuts.

[aterpster]

Spooky 2:


I believe that ATLAS has been an ALPA carrier for some time now and I see no reason that these guys should get fired or even demoted. Sim check and what ever the FAA has in mind will be more than adequate assuming there are not other problems hiding in their folders.

Certainly don't recall TWA firing the Capt that landed his 707 at the wrong airport in Ohio many years ago.


Because I was working there at the time I remember that case well. He was sent back to the F/O seat for 18 months followed by a tough upgrade back to captain training situation. But, after the 18 months he made it fine.

[aterpster]

Aluminium shuffler:


Now, given that so many Yanks lambasted the Asiana crew for being a few feet too low to get away with it, how can so many of the same group defend a crew that landed miles out of position? Just because they were lucky enough not to have caused any deaths does not excuse the serious lack of airmanship in this case. They were luckier, not better.

I lambast both crews. I also lambast the KAL 801 crash at Guam. And, I lambast the KAL 747 that was lost at LAX on a visual flying a base leg at 500 feet, agl, and when turning a panic final didn't roll wings level until the last seconds.


I participated in the KAL 801 hearing. Based on what I saw and heard from KAL management there I was not impressed.


The Asiana crash at SFO was far worse that what the Atlas crew did and what they did was inexcusable.

[Desert185]

Since Asiana has been compared to Atlas so much by those looking to bash Americans (yes, true enough), my perspective is that it is much more egregious to not focus on and maintain airspeed during an approach (and especially a visual) than landing at the wrong airport. The magenta kids screwed up, and appropriate measured are warranted. Which airplane would you rather be in?

I taught the Asians for enough years to spot certain trends that easily resulted in stereotyping. I also had some great ones. There were Americans (and other nationalities) who shouldn't go near the airport other than to be SLF. Given that, I still feel more comfortable with a certain type of pilot up front. Racist or realist? Let the bashing begin. I am an American, so have at it.

Atlas provided the opportunity for some to poke the stick at the Yanks once again. Everytime I got together at a pub, or elswhere, with co-workers or newly-met "friends", the passtime of Yank-bashing by the Brits would eventually surface. Even an ex-mother-in-law couldn't resist by bashing her own Yank husband she so aggressively pursued. :confused: (Wait for it...yep there it is.) We need beating-a-dead-horse icon.

You guys are really likeable except for that. You really need to get over whatever it is that perpetuates the trend. Can't we all just get along?

[GobonaStick]

Surely, if you're not where you think you are, then you're automatically a hazard to anyone not expecting you? Suppose there'd been a light aircraft on the runway? It's not just a "navigational" error.

[West Coast]

What if the the wing had fallen off, what if the Captain had a hear attack. What if enough and you can get the crew into any situation you want, none of which would be accurate.

[AnQrKa]

"...but the asiana crew made the costliest in terms of death, hundreds of injuries, and property"

The 747 wrong airport landing did not cost as much as the Asiana accident but luck was on their side.

The 747 crew were lucky they didnt blast into the WRONG traffic pattern and collide with another aircraft or run off the SHORT runway into houses.

Dont judge the level of oversight based upon the end result alone.

They screwed up big time and it could have been a lot worse.

[DozyWannabe]

Since Asiana has been compared to Atlas so much by those looking to bash Americans (yes, true enough)

Whoa there, D - that's certainly not what I was getting at. You know me - I think reflexively bashing any person or group of people on the basis of arbitrary generalisations (e.g. nationality, occupation, age) is counter-productive and pointless.

If you look at my post above, I didn't mention the nationality of the Atlas crew at all - because I'm well aware that the attitude to some Asian carriers comes from across the Western contingent, not just USians.

My perspective is that it is much more egregious to not focus on and maintain airspeed during an approach (and especially a visual) than landing at the wrong airport.

Fair enough, but as others have pointed out, any deviation in position from where you're supposed to be has the potential to be dangerous - in fact very dangerous if the "wrong" airport is in use!


I taught the Asians for enough years to spot certain trends that easily resulted in stereotyping. I also had some great ones. There were Americans (and other nationalities) who shouldn't go near the airport other than to be SLF.

That may be so, but to be a good teacher one has to resist the urge to stereotype - at least on a professional level.

How long ago were you doing TRE out East, out of interest?

Atlas provided the opportunity for some to poke the stick at the Yanks once again.

Really? I'm seeing the odd facepalm towards the crew, but their nationality hasn't come into the discussion that I can see - other than a higher-than-usual level of "no harm, no foul" posts.

(this bit is off-topic, my apologies to the mods...)

Everytime I got together at a pub, or elswhere, with co-workers or newly-met "friends", the passtime of Yank-bashing by the Brits would eventually surface. Even an ex-mother-in-law couldn't resist by bashing her own Yank husband she so aggressively pursued. :confused: (Wait for it...yep there it is.) We need beating-a-dead-horse icon.

Let's be fair - there's a big difference between personal ribbing amongst friends, family and colleagues during leisure time versus casting aspersions on strangers' professional capability on the basis of nationality!

You guys are really likeable except for that. You really need to get over whatever it is that perpetuates the trend. Can't we all just get along?

But we do get along! You can't tell me it's all one-way traffic with a straight face, surely. I think the odd friendly insult should be as accepted as we accept, for example, consistently being the bad guys in Hollywood movies. :ok:

One trait that I hope gives us some leeway is that a lot of Brits take the p*ss out of ourselves as much as, if not more than, we do anyone else!

Obviously you get the odd spat that is actually mean-spirited and when that happens, this particular limey is troubled no matter which side of the pond it's coming from. Sadly, genuine bigotry is not constrained by geography.

[flarepilot]

I am amazed at the turn of events...comparing a Crash that Killed people, injured hundreds more, destroyed an airplane, closed an airport, all because the pilots couldn't maintain a safe airspeed

and

two pilots landing at the wrong airfield.

yes, there could have been a little plane, but hopefully the little plane would have had its lights on and the big plane's crew would have seen it and gone around.

or maybe tracon would have warned both planes if there had been a little plane at the ''wrong'' airport.


Maybe the Atlas crew will fly again and never land at the wrong airport again.

But the Asiana crew...they shouldn't be allowed near another airplane.


And go ahead and bash us yanks. Make all the fun of us you would like to .


there are many maybes in aviation. but the hard facts are this...one plane crashed, another went to the wrong airport. IF i had to choose the seat I would rather be in, it would have been the dreamlifter...I could have lived it down...but killing innocents, ruining lives and not being able to maintain Vref plus five...I couldn't have lived that done or lived with it.

[bpp]

well said flarepilot!:D

[Cows getting bigger]

If I had to choose, I wouldn't have got in either. Some of you really don't get this - both incidents are indicative of serious human factors failure (note, I haven't said 'human failure'). Both occurrences, together with the Southwestern wheelbarrow landing and the UPS 'land short' at Birmingham require extremely thorough investigation and lesson identification. To trivialise an event just because no puppies were hurt flies in the face of every contemporary flight safety principle.

The aim should be to reduce the risk of another Asiana, UPS, Dreamlifter and Southwestern.

[AnQrKa]

"...require extremely thorough investigation and lesson identification."

Exactly.

[flarepilot]

dear cows

its southwest, not southwestern

must be a human failure

[jetpilot007]

If you are a real pilot, you would not compare Asiana and Atlas or any other incidents and accidents

What if the Asiana was Cargo and Atlas was passenger airplane.
I understand the Jabara airport was closed at the time and if it was and
what if they were doing construction on the runway ?

If you are a real pilot, you would learn some thing out of these accident
and incident not accusing the crewmemebers.

All I am trying to say is we all had mistakes while we are operating the
airplane especially if you are airline pilot.


I think we, airline pilots, should be humble.

I see so many pilots here are very humble and try to learn something out
of many pilot's mistakes.
And in the mean time I also see a few people who think they are so perfect
and believe that they are top guns.

We will see many incidents and will hear accidents in the future.
And I sincerely hope that I can learn from their mistakes.

And believe me, we airline pilots, learn from this incident.
But believe me, you will hear about another landing at the wrong airport again
because we are only human and human make mistakes

Flarepilot, bottom line is airline pilots should be humble and only humble
pilots should be near the airplane.

Are you a humble pilot ?
I sincerely hope you are because I am trying to be one because I am an airline pilot.

[flarepilot]

jet007


just to answer your question, yes I am an airline pilot.

I've been an airline pilot for over 30 years.

Maybe you are new to the game.

Maybe you don't remember when DELTA stood for Don't Ever Land There Again?

And when Johnny Carson made jokes about landing at the wrong airport.

And since you are an airline pilot, I am sure you know who Douglas Corrigan was.


Humble...sure.

And others started to compare Asiana and Dreamlifter, not me...I just pointed out that you shouldn't compare the two...contrast them yes, but not compare.

So tell us all about Corrigan and other piloting stuff...without looking it up on the internet.

[barit1]

Just a humble thought -

The Asiana crew - all three in that cockpit - subjugated their piloting responsibility to their ancient social hierarchy, that of saving face.

I would suggest their penance include conducting ab initio and recurrent safety/CRM training for Asiana crews. And if trainees will not regard that first-hand experience as valuable learning, they have no place in the pointy end. :=

[jetpilot007]

Yes, I am new to this game.

I am here to learn something from other pilot's mistakes.
Yes, I am trying to be a humble pilot and better one I hope.

But what I see most here is accusing one pilot to another, one airline to
another, one nation to another.
I see so many top gun pilots who blame pilots for the incidents and accidents.

If you have been in the airline for 30 years, please show what kind of pilots
we should be to the pilots who just want to accuse other pilots who made
mistakes.

Flarepilot.

I hope I can learn something from your article in the future.

Thanks.

[barit1]

...bottom line is airline pilots should be humble and only humble
pilots should be near the airplane.

Humble in character, yes, but assertive - positively assertive - when the job demands it.

[bubbers44]

Most retired airline pilots as we are are humble but also know how to fly so feel the right to state our feelings about accidents and incidents as these.
Not knowing how to fly an approach speed and not knowing how to do a visual approach in clear conditions in clear day conditions vs picking out the wrong runway at night are quite a bit different. Both crews made errors but the day landing was a student pilot type stupid mistake, the night landing was a mistake of not using your navigational skills. Yes, both were wrong but one was blatently stupid and the other a big mistake. When you get older you might understand what I am telling you.

[West Coast]

Well said. There's a lot to be said for confidence as well. Plenty of character traits as well before jumps onboard make for a competent pilot. Many times those traits oppose and balance out the equation.

[Aluminium shuffler]

I respectfully disagree. If the Atlas crew hadn't been quite so lucky in mistaking their runways for one on which they had enough distance to stop and had broken the aircraft or harmed someone as a result, then I think the attitudes displayed by those citing "No harm, no foul" would be markedly different. So, that begs why a mistake where luck plays a major part in the outcome should be excused while a less lucky crew who make a similar error don't qualify for such forgiveness.

As for the skills and airmanship involved, while being unaware of your aircraft's speed and attitude and unable to control them is generally inexcusable, why is being unaware of your position any better? Such a big error could have caused all sorts of issues like CFIT, infringements, collisions and so on (with resulting dependence on automatic systems to provide alerts, let alone the runway performance ramifications. Ultimately, you either know what your aircraft is doing or you don't, and that includes geographical position.

I don't want to judge either crew; I just don't like seeing the different attitudes which seem based merely on xenophobia or racism.

[flarepilot]

aluminum shuffler


racism? xenophobia? oh come on!

when a friend called and said a 777 crashed at San Francisco, i didn't think: oh those damn asians...the first thing I thought was it was a friend from United Airlines.

It wasn't...it was an incompetent crew that happened to work for asiana airlines. I never thought for a second about race or anything else.

how dare you assume you know what is in the heart and mind of anyone else.

Now to Atlas/Dreamlifter. Let's say the runway had been shorter and the plane couldn't stop...Well, the crew might have recognized(while airborne) that it was too short and gone around.

And Kansas, USA is of course known for giant mountains that would contribute to a CFIT accident (this is sarcasm as Kansas is pretty flat)

And if there had been a plane on the runway or nearby, perhaps the TCAS would be triggered? Or a visual sighting would have garnered a call to ATC regarding traffic and putting together they were at the wrong airport.


You asked ''why is being unaware of your position any better?'' A long time ago, someone came up with:

Aviate
Navigate
Communicate

Aviate means keep a safe airspeed

Its the first one!

If you don't keep a safe airspeed you can take it from me that navigating and communicating don't matter one bit.

LUCK...sure, Atlas was lucky, so was Sully(hudson river), but they kept their airspeed.

UPS at Birmingham...anyone who has flown 30 years knows that a non precision approach at night with clouds near the minimums is a hard approach...this was a genuine tragedy, but the pilots alone paid, no passengers. But they had their airspeed.

But the greatest tragedy, on the most perfect weather day, when navigation was as easy as looking out the window and following a famous body of water with visual checkpoints and references was Asiana. NOT because the crew wasn't Occidental.

ITS BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T AVIATE!!!!!!!!!!

MAINTAIN THY AIRSPEED or the earth will come up and smite thee. And the passengers paid.


So Aluminum Shuffler, it isn't race, its competence. Try it!

[bubbers44]

Racism?????

[aterpster]

Flarepilot:


I agree with most of what you say, with one notable exception:

UPS at Birmingham...anyone who has flown 30 years knows that a non precision approach at night with clouds near the minimums is a hard approach...this was a genuine tragedy, but the pilots alone paid, no passengers. But they had their airspeed.I have flown my share of NPAs at night. Some are difficult, no doubt. On the other hand if I am required by regulation to have the PAPI in sight at, or prior to, MDA and further required to have the PAPI clearly in sight until "over the numbers" I will not crash short of the runway.

There is a distinction without a difference as to flight path management at Birmingham and San Francisco.

[Willit Run]

To Aluminum Shuffler;

The lucky crew was the Asiana Crew. They are lucky they only killed 2 people and not the entire plane. They are lucky they are alive.

The atlas crew would have only killed 2, total!

You can what if all you like. One incident was pretty bad; the other incident was inexcusably incompetent.

[TwoOneFour]

Go and ask those who survived the Singapore Airlines 747 accident whether they think mistaking a runway is a trivial exercise.

As for comparing death tolls to judge which error would be "worse", that's just patent nonsense. I can't believe anyone would even resort to such foolish reasoning.

[WillowRun 6-3]

I'm so glad this thread, reading (to some degree) cumulatively has requested my legal opinion on the issue de jour - 'what, if any, comparisons may VALIDLY be made between Asiana crew's failure to aviate, and Atlas crew's failure of situational awareness?' [Opinion wasn't requested, what said? Pursuant to the Chicago Convention generally, nonetheless as legal counsel an inherent right exists to provide, or offer, said opinion.] Legally, it is buck-naked obvious that where fatalities have occurred, a hull lost, and a point of contention created (or such contention point newly-emphasized (if you are among the cognoscenti)) between the US CAA and the corresponding authority in the nation which owns and/or operates Asiana as an air carrier, that situation is let's say a 5 or maybe 6 on a 10-point severity scale. (Not many fatalities, but really sadly incompetent flying, or truthfully, non-flying.). On the other hand, in Kansas, no ACTUAL HARMS occurred. Relative severity: maybe 2, arguably 2.5 or 3, since the aircraft in the incident is (a) of very high importance to such as Boeing, and (b) one of only a handful in existence of that type/config. You Stick-Shaker types have heard of the 'calibrations' in the law: misdemeanor, felony Class A, B, C, X, etc., right? All are crimes. No sensible and/or sane argument for saying all should carry the same weight. Why is the comparison to be made between these two incidents in flying and human factors failures so difficult for so many posters to grasp?

[flarepilot]

posters here actually saying things about what could have been worse and pointing to other accidents/incidents with regard to dreamlifter.

yet I speak only of what did happen.

[Cows getting bigger]

I think the "what could have..." ethos reflects a desire to analyse every occurrence which may have a quantifiable safety implication. The implications of the Dreamlifter are just as severe as the 'actuals' of Asiana. If the Dreamlifter occurrence is brushed under the carpet because no damage was done then that is a significant and disappointing oversight.

I don't think anyone is comparing Asiana with Dreamlifter - I think there are those of us who are saying that both occurrences require the same amount of in depth investigation in order to identify and rectify the holes. Personally, I'm coming from a position of lesson-learning in order that future crews don't find themselves in the same/similar position. I have little interest in witch hunts.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

yet I speak only of what did happen.

Now to Atlas/Dreamlifter. Let's say the runway had been shorter and the plane couldn't stop...Well, the crew might have recognized(while airborne) that it was too short and gone around.

And Kansas, USA is of course known for giant mountains that would contribute to a CFIT accident (this is sarcasm as Kansas is pretty flat)

And if there had been a plane on the runway or nearby, perhaps the TCAS would be triggered? Or a visual sighting would have garnered a call to ATC regarding traffic and putting together they were at the wrong airport.

Of course you do.

[West Coast]

Problem is where do you stop with the what if's? Eventually there's no resemblance to the original scenario after you've made enough crap up with what ifs. Analyze the hell out of an event and take what you can. Make it a learning experience to be sure.
What if as one poster said there had been an airplane on the runway at the airport the 747 landed at. Well, I can think of a plethora of potential outcomes, none of which happened, yet the poster wants us to imagine some contrived outcome.

Stick to what happened.

[bubbers44]

I know we are old retired pilots but one dark night in a B727 I was the captain landing in the Dominican Republic at Punta Cana. Never landing there before and with two new pilots who hadn't either were told at the last minute to do the NDB approach a few miles out.

We quickly got the approach out and did it, broke out and transitioned to the Papi at 800 ft. The Papi had us so low I leveled to make a normal approach. I thought all pilots were taught to do this. Guess not. Guess a mule stepped on the Papi and put it at 1 degree instead of 3. We didn't have magenta lines back then.

[bubbers44]

Yes we checked all Notams and talked with dispatch before take off.

[flarepilot]

imagine that, a mule?

sometimes I wonder if someone could mistake back up lights and brake lights (automobile) for papis.

[GobonaStick]

Problem is where do you stop with the what if's?


The 'what ifs' are the whole reason you avoid screwing up in the first place. If there were no 'what ifs', there'd be no reason to bother doing anything right. :ugh:

[misd-agin]

A mule? Stepped on how many of the lights?

Precision approach path indicator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_approach_path_indicator)

https://www.google.com/search?q=airport+papi+pictures&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=WHCaUpG9KtTpoASf_ILADg&ved=0CCkQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=622

[West Coast]

No, compliance with regulations, procedures, best practices, etc are the reason you avoid the screwing up, or at least avoid trying not to to screw up, not wondering what if.

[bubbers44]

Somehow the papi went to 1 degree instead of 3 degrees. How did that happen? I don't know so explain it to me.

[Ozlander1]

If you are a real pilot, you would not compare Asiana and Atlas or any other incidents and accidents

I understand the Jabara airport was closed at the time and if it was and
what if they were doing construction on the runway ?

Well, if you were a real pilot, you would know that if the airport was closed, the runway lights and Papi would be turned off and the Atlas crew wouldn't be able to see them and land at the wrong airport. :ugh:

[aterpster]

bubbers44:


Somehow the papi went to 1 degree instead of 3 degrees. How did that happen? I don't know so explain it to me.
You have to be a MSFS pilot to understand it.

[ehwatezedoing]

Now, given that so many Yanks lambasted the Asiana crew for being a few feet too low to get away with it, how can so many of the same group defend a crew that landed miles out of position? Just because they were lucky enough not to have caused any deaths does not excuse the serious lack of airmanship in this case. They were luckier, not better.

Take note (quoting someone else)
Better to do a really good landing at the wrong airport, than a really bad one at the right airport.

[flarepilot]

great point ozlander...and if a runway was closed it must have an illuminated "X" quite visible at night

ehwhatzhedoing...great point.


defending the indefensible...asiana a true crash...atlas a screwup.

big difference

[8driver]

Here is the commonalty. In each of these accidents (Atlas, Asiana, UPS at BHM), the PROPER use of VNAV could have prevented the accident. In San Fran with Asiana it was a TransPac flight (fatigue), ILS OTS, new captain under training, and cultural/seniority issues. So load and fly the RNAV approach. Use all the resources available.

Atlas at Jabara. Approach was in the box, fly the damn thing. Its night into what one could assume was an unfamiliar airport with many other airports nearby. Use the technology.

UPS at Birmingham. I don't know the A300 at all, but I've been told a VNAV mode exists. A reliable source at the FAA told me they basically V/S'd the damn thing into the trees and the hill. Fatigue? Early morning and low circadian rhythm? Use the resources available.

If you get caught up in the argument that Asiana killed three and injured many more, Atlas killed nobody, and UPS only killed two you miss the point. The point being that all of these accidents/incidents were preventable had the installed technology been used to its fullest.

[jetpilot007]

I believe that I have learned everything I should know to become a better pilot.

DO NOT CRASH BUT SCREW UP IS OK.

Who cares about landing at the wrong airport.
Who cares about taking off from the wrong runway.

Got it.

Thank you all especially from old and retired pilots who never had an incident.
I really admire your perfect career.

I guess I don't need to come to this PPRUNE because I have learned everything
I should know about how I can retire from aviation like you, experience pilots.

Thank you and good luck to you all. .............:D:ok:

[Desert185]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2P6LV-DKMrc&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D2P6LV-DKMrc