Clear Left(side)

[Killaroo]

So Airbus want us to say "Clear LeftSIDE" before taxi.
After clearing LEFT for thirty years I really find this a bit too much to swallow.
Anybody like to give me some inkling of the logic for this stupidity? If there is any?

[jolly__jumper]

How about the new "STALL TOGA 15º" callout?

[BARKINGMAD]

Howzabout "Clear to left wingtip" by Capt/lhs occupant, and "Clear to right wingtip" by F/O or rhs occupant?

Most F/Os I fly with are not ex-military and don't seem to appreciate the "enemy", in the form of civil airport ground traffic, can appear at great speed from ones aircraft 4 o'clock or 8 o'clock.

If I can't see F/Os right ear, nor he my left ear when we look out, then the job has not been done properly!

And it permits one to check the LEDs are drooping, so we don't have yet another Madrid or similar accident, though theoretically the "config" warning will save the day?

However, it also stops one taxying without flap which is FDM marker and therefore another visit to "the office" for tea, NO biscuits............. :)

[Check Airman]

Howzabout "Clear to left wingtip" by Capt/lhs occupant, and "Clear to right wingtip" by F/O or rhs occupant?I'm sorry, but isn't that sort of obvious? Your FO's need to be told to check the wingtip?

Killaroo,

Forgive me, because I've never flown an Airbus, but what exactly do they hope to accomplish by saying "clear left side", that can't be done with "clear left"?

Also, does your company have to change the calls just because Airbus calls have changed? Surely such trivial and non-technical things can be considered technique and not procedure?

[Killaroo]

Forgive me, because I've never flown an Airbus, but what exactly do the hope to accomplish by saying "clear left side", that can't be done with "clear left"?

That's exactly what I'm asking!
I'm beginning to believe there's actually a weird element of brainwashing in this stuff now. I was pulled up on it recently by a Line Trainer fresh out of Law School. He should have stayed there.
Then again....maybe he's perfect for Airbus Ops.

How about the new Stall TOGA 15 call out
Nonsense. That's not the Stall Recovery Procedure anymore!
Unless they've changed it again. The constantly moving target.

[Capt Claret]

Howzabout "Clear to left wingtip" by Capt/lhs occupant, and "Clear to right wingtip" by F/O or rhs occupant?

Not Airbus but it means we'll have to open the CV windows and stick our head out, if we want to see the wing/wingtip. Wonder who'll be watching where we're going? :ooh:

[stilton]

Have to watch out for the enemy while i'm taxiing Barking Mad, if I only had a couple of Brownings to 'take them out' but i'm just a civilian type :rolleyes:

[Kefuddle]

So Airbus want us to say "Clear LeftSIDE" before taxi.
After clearing LEFT for thirty years I really find this a bit too much to swallow.
Anybody like to give me some inkling of the logic for this stupidity? If there is any? Seems like a sensible low cost check'n'call to me, just to make sure the ground guy and associated equipment are clear.

Heard of an episode recently where the crew thought the ground guy had disconnected, to be met with yells over the i/c as the engines spooled up - close one :mad:

[Basil]

So Airbus want us to say "Clear LeftSIDE" before taxi.
After clearing LEFT for thirty years I really find this a bit too much to swallow.
Anybody like to give me some inkling of the logic for this stupidity? If there is any?
JDI!!
Reminds me of Cathay training :)

[Killaroo]

Seems like a sensible low cost check'n'call to me, just to make sure the ground guy and associated equipment are clear.
Oh come on, for goodness sake!! It's not about the CHECK it's about the MOUTH MUSIC. THE CALLOUT. Don't be kefuddled!

Basil, What's JDI?
I'm guessing - "Just Do It"?

It's sick that this profession is being dumbed down to this level. I'm glad ill be gone in a year. God help the newbies.

[BOAC]

I'm puzzled - what is the issue? As said, it is the actual confirmation that all is clear that is important, not 'the words'. If this 'wordage' is put forward as a new 'mandatory' call, either 'JDI' or rebel (but DO check, of course), in which case I ask what are the penalties for such a revolt? If you get that anal TC, try 'Clear my side' or similar - and see if he/she has a stroke.:)

Killaroo - "I'm guessing - "Just Do It"?" -Yes, re-inforced by 'JFDI'.

[screwballburling]

When the imbeciles at AB, try and tell us their A380 is "uncrashable", what do you expect? Sanity?

The New master race of Europe are coming out with a lot of nonsense these days.

[Kefuddle]

Killaroo,
Mouth music and kefuddled, like it.
Oh come on, for goodness sake!! It's not about the CHECK it's about the MOUTH MUSIC. THE CALLOUT. Don't be kefuddled!

Seriously, the check is the thing for sure, but the words (whatever they may be!) serve three key purposes in my mind: communication to the other crewie that the area they cannot see is clear, a trigger for him to also check should he be otherwise distracted and coordination such that more than idle thrust is not commanded and movement attempted until both crew see the area as clear.

Arguably, verbalizing checks probably also increases the likelihood they they are done at all.

[de facto]

When the imbeciles at AB, try and tell us their A380 is "uncrashable", what do you expect? Sanity?

The New master race of Europe are coming out with a lot of nonsense these days.


Found back your cave yet?:E

[Chris Scott]

Could it be that someone is recognising the ambiguity of the English word "right"?

Presumably in the same list of standard callouts the copilot is being asked to call "clear right side", rather than "clear right"? The latter is capable of being misinterpreted as "clear...right?".

I prefer the expressions left-hand and right-hand. Even better are the old-fashioned terms port and starb'd, but they don't teach sensible things like that any more...

[flarepilot]

right clear? clear right

left clear? clear left

[Killaroo]

Clear left, right?
Could it be that someone is recognising the ambiguity of the English word "right"?

Presumably in the same list of standard callouts the copilot is being asked to call "clear right side", rather than "clear right"? The latter is capable of being misinterpreted as "clear...right?".

I prefer the expressions left-hand and right-hand. Even better are the old-fashioned terms port and starb'd, but they don't teach sensible things like that any more...


Well at least that's a stab at a reasonable explanation. Thanks. And yes, the FO call is 'Right-side'. Although actually, I'm not sure if its hyphenated. I better rush off and dig out my FCOMs to check that.







Just kidding.




Clear LEFT.
I'm a rebel. So fire me.

[Basil]

OK then - "Clear starboard!"
Although, I don't believe we ever had a steorbord on the RHS on aeroplanes :}

[Agaricus bisporus]

Could it be that someone is recognising the ambiguity of the English word "right"?

It's a common mistake to believe that Airbus (let alone their lawyers) speak / understand "English", or that their manuals are written in it.

[Chris Scott]

Basil,
Not quite! "Clear starb'd..." is more succinct. As an aside - picking up on your "steerboard" reference - I seem to remember that the nautical people originally used "larboard" for "left". Due to the possible verbal confusion with "starboard", it was wisely changed to "port" (which was usualy on the left side when docking).

BOAC,
Yes, why not "JDI", provided it's safe. After all, they took the shilling...

Quote from AB:
It's a common mistake to believe that Airbus (let alone their lawyers) speak / understand "English", or that their manuals are written in it.

Don't know how much you've been exposed to AI material. There has often been room for improvement, but I call that a cheap shot - and so populist on this forum.

Do try to make a positive contribution, old man... ;)

[Agaricus bisporus]

Don't know how much you've been exposed to AI material.

No, you don't , do you?

Do try to make a positive contribution, old man.

[Capn Bloggs]

Don't know how much you've been exposed to AI material. There has often been room for improvement, but I call that a cheap shot
Oh come on Chris. I don't fly AB so perhaps it is more noticeable.Their books sometimes read as though they were written by kindergarten kids!

[Breakthesilence]

I'm not an airbus supporter but...are you all serious in complaining for a stupid word to add?

Is it so difficult? I can understand if something is stupid or, worse, wrong but that is just a specification and I think it was added for the reason provided by Chris Scott. However, whatever the reason is, if you don't like it, write to your FOPH or Fleet Manager and ask for explanations.

I admit it is not a revolutionary improvement in aviation safety, but stop pretending to be fantasy ace super cool pilots and do it.

Are you aware you are writing complaints about a trivial issue?

[tomahawk_pa38]

Only having this discussion in the pub the other day but were the terms 'starboard' and 'port' ever used in aviation - if so - when did they stop using them although I can understand why ?

[Mach E Avelli]

50 years ago the terms 'port' and 'starboard' were still used. I recall textbooks referring to both in the sections on lights and right of way. Nautical terms such as 'abeam', 'aft' and 'locker' may still be found in some manuals. Fokker certainly used those terms in the English versions of original F27 literature. The neat thing about nautical terminology is it leaves less room for misunderstanding in a noisy environment.

As for the current debate, why stress over a simple word? Whether ''SIDE" is included or not, it won't make a blind bit of difference if you don't actually look outside first! A bit like whether you parrot "xxxxx checkLIST complete" or "xxxxx checkS complete" - it means nothing if you haven't done it properly.

I will endeavour to use whatever my paymasters require, although I sometimes forget the exact fly-by-mouth words, especially if there are too many of them required to describe something basic. I see no safety hazard in an occasional lapse if the meaning is clear, unless the other guy in the cockpit is either a moron or so hung up on having the exact words that he goes into a catatonic state when he doesn't hear them.

It is when pilots rebel against SOP just to be different that a hazardous attitude can develop.

[Captaintcas]

Who the hell cares if you say right is clear or right side clear.
Just do the check and announce. Simple.
Anyone who insists on the exact wording on this is so analy retentive that he/ she does not belong in the cockpit, let alone be allowed to train or write manuals.:ugh:

Common sense should prevail at all times.

[Capn Bloggs]

As for the current debate, why stress over a simple word?
Because the chaps sitting behind the desks writing this stuff have to be told it is nonsense. First this, then what's next? More and more verbal diarrhoea and complicated SOPs. Stand up and fight you AB lot! :ok:

Who the hell cares if you say right is clear or right side clear.
Just do the check and announce. Simple.
If it is in the SOPs, then it should been done properly. Sama sama radio calls. It isn't difficult; learn the correct way and do it.

were the terms 'starboard' and 'port' ever used in aviation
I sometimes use P or S in the tech log so the engos know which side I'm talking about regardless of whether they are walking forward or backward thru the cabin... :ok:

[bubbers44]

Hope they were sailors or they wouldn't have a clue where to look.

[underfire]

Considering many of the up and coming markets, and Countries (combined with recent incidents) it is probably prudent that Airbus AND Boeing add more of the basics back into the mix.

One just has to look back thru many of the topics on this board, to find a lack of consensus on many of the basics. :eek:

[Capn Bloggs]

Hope they were sailors or they wouldn't have a clue where to look.
Didn't think of that. :{

Considering many of the up and coming markets, and Countries (combined with recent incidents) it is probably prudent that Airbus AND Boeing add more of the basics back into the mix.
No, they come up to our standard, not us descend to theirs.

[Killaroo]

I'm not an airbus supporter but...are you all serious in complaining for a stupid word to add?

Is it so difficult? I can understand if something is stupid or, worse, wrong but that is just a specification and I think it was added for the reason provided by Chris Scott. However, whatever the reason is, if you don't like it, write to your FOPH or Fleet Manager and ask for explanations.

I admit it is not a revolutionary improvement in aviation safety, but stop pretending to be fantasy ace super cool pilots and do it.

Are you aware you are writing complaints about a trivial issue?

Hmmm....if its so trivial - why do they want us to say it? Why would any copped on TC make a song and dance of it? The truth is - It's not trivial at all, is it. It's an SOP that happens to be BS (IMHO) and I'm interested in finding out if there is a sliver of logic to justify it. So far it's pretty flimsy.
It's a super little bit of trivia for a nerdish insecure newbie TC to show off with though, and quite pathetic given the fact we work in a company where a significant number of crew can barely hold a conversation in clear English. A clear case of wrong priorities. Plus added willy waving.

The Checks the thing (to slightly misquote the Bard).
Screw the wording - do the Check!

[Wally Mk2]

'Killa' to answer yr original question....NO there is no logic to all this just take a look at two pages of much to do about nufin'! Amazing that two pages of replies where generated over something so pedantic.
We all know SOP's are there & for good reasons (mostly) but they are now totally overtaking common sense, something that was intuitive in pilots, that's now been bred out of them & replaced with monkey see monkey do!

Common sense no longer has a place in aviation you have to justify yr every fart, we can thank the corrupt judicial system for that!:ugh:

There must be a lot of old salt pilots out there now retired sitting back & laughing their heads off thinking OMG look what aviation has become!

[Killaroo]

Indeed Wally, well said. I plan to join those ranks soon.

One more thing.
The phrase "Clear Left" does not 'belong' to Airbus. It is not 'type specific'. It is an Aviation Term, one that has been in use for decades. Maybe Orville and Wilbur used it. Boeing pilots use it too, as do the pilots of tens or hundreds of other aircraft types. None of them will be changing their language just because some lawyer in Airbus decided it was 'une bonne idee'. This will be totally ignored by most of the worlds pilots, and rightly so.
Theres a limit to this BS.
Bin it.