ATO Template Manuals

[Treadstone1]

Hi all

Has anyone got an update regarding an ETA for the template ATO manuals?

I e-mailed the CAA last week, but, no response came the reply :ugh:

Thanks again

[S-Works]

There are non yet.

[TheOddOne]

Hopefully they'll dish them out at the Seminars in November. We've had an e-mail back confirming receipt of our booking. Perhaps receipt of the templates is dependent on seminar attendance. Seems like the way forward to me.

TOO

[Whopity]

We've had an e-mail back confirming receipt of our bookingBut not necessarily confirmation of attendance, some have received refusals after the confirmation of booking!

[TheOddOne]

But not necessarily confirmation of attendance,

True, true, we wait with bated breath, no refusal yet seen.

Was a reason for refusal given? I can think of a couple of reasons - not being a current registered and paid-up RTF for instance...

TOO

[BigEndBob]

I think you will see the templates after the seminar.
Saves having a big argument on the day!

[Treadstone1]

Thanks for your replies.

The reason I ask is that at the moment, I am an ATO for FI courses and a RTF for PPL.

My PPL/LAPL manuals are ready to be sent off for approval but if I use them they will charge me £1000, if I wait and use the template manuals the fee is only £100.

The reason they have given for the price difference is the time it will take for someone to read them!!!

Does that mean if I use "their" manuals no one is going to take the time and effort to read their manuals? :ugh::ugh:

[Treadstone1]

By the way I was refused attendance to the seminars, because I am an ATO already....I only had a "few questions for them to answer" Pity....

[Whopity]

It really boils down to bad planning and failure to anticipate demand. The choice of venues also leave a lot to be desired!

[md 600 driver]

is their any ato manuals to down load anywhere yet ?

[S-Works]

Tread stone, same here!

[topoverhaul]

As to locations, it does seem strange that the Perth meeting is in the local football club instead of at the airfield where we could all have flown in to. Now it means a long drive there and back.

[JAKL]

We (RTF) have received confirmation of attendance for two places at Gatwick.
Hoping to get templates and plenty of information when we get there.

If the IMC is to continue til 2019, maybe that's when the templates will be issued!

[BillieBob]

My PPL/LAPL manuals are ready to be sent off for approval but if I use them they will charge me £1000, if I wait and use the template manuals the fee is only £100.Not according to IN-2013/131:
Existing ATO - consolidation of PPL and other training previously undertaken as an RTF into an existing ATO approval either using or not using and conforming to the Operations, Training and Compliance Management System (Ops, Training and CMS) Manual templates as published by the CAA - £100.

[TheOddOne]

Got our two 'tickets' via e-mail today. Exeter's not a bad venue for us, only 2 hrs each way...

TOO

[Treadstone1]

Billiebob

Thanks for this snippet, I will have a read.

[Metlik]

Hello gentlemans,

what do you think, is there any chance to get mentioned ATO manuals templates for us, flight school from eastern europe?

[cpumad]

From what I heard from the CAA, (FTO inspector) the roadshows are open for guys who are only RTOs. Any school with an FTO/ATO operation won't get priority

Also from the same source, eta for the manuals is just before the 1st roadshow.

[xrayalpha]

Well, we are a microlight school - thinking of adding light aircraft to our portfolio, since one will be able to teach on light aircraft for cash without a CPL - and we have been "allowed" one ticket.

[Treadstone1]

Hi

I don't know what these road shows are going to cover exactly?

The processes to follow for the change from RTF to an ATO and what information is required to be in the manuals, you would thinks so wouldn't you?

I've been told that the CAA wants to cover infringements and navigation or the lack of it to reduce these infringements.....:ugh:

[Whopity]

I think you will find its a case of the infringement guys taking every opportunity to get their message over.

[BigEndBob]

With the importance of the change from RTF to ATO, if they use the minimal time available to bang on about infringements, I will walk out.
I'm loosing a days income to attend.
If they want to stop infringements I would be better off spending any cash or fees on supplying moving map gps for customer use.

[justmaybe]

Attended the CAA Seminar at Gatwick today. It was well organised and presented, and in fairness to the CAA staff that were in attendance they worked hard to deal with the many questions raised. So credit where credit is due.
The much awaited ATO template manuals were distributed on CD (together with other info and seminar presentation notes). The template manual runs to some 79 pages, and to complete it will require a good deal of thinking and time; I suspect the finished product could easily double or treble in size, and like any proformae document it is difficult to get a one size fits all. Anyway, I think its a step in the right direction,and we will have to see how it plays out when submitted for approval.

[Warrior2]

Is it possible for one to download a copy of the manuals without attending the seminar?

[justmaybe]

Don't think so at the moment. Contact UK CAA and they might provide copy, or PM me;)

[Treadstone1]

Warrior 2

I've spoken to the CAA regarding your question, they told me that they will be available for download "very soon" from the CAA website.

[jez d]

I have a copy of the template ATO Manual

On initial reading, it contains three worrying developments:

PPL TK study requirement

Early on in the document, AMC FCL.210; FCL.215 is correctly quoted with reference to the 100 hours theoretical knowledge requirement for the PPL course, stating '... the theoretical knowledge instruction should include a certain element of formal classroom work.'

Fine. However, on page 77 of 79 there is the following statement: 'CAA policy is that no more than 33% of the total instructional time may be devoted to computer based training and other media distance learning courses... self-study may be acceptable as an 'other media distance learning course'.

In other words, 67 hours of the 100 hour TK requirement must be conducted in a classroom because 'CAA policy' says so.

Who came up with this policy? What is the safety case for the introduction of the policy? When was the Regulatory Impact Assessment carried out for this new policy and what were the findings?

The minimum classroom requirement for ATPL TK is 10% (65 hours out of 650). Why is it 67% (67 hours out of 100) for private pilots?

67 hours of classroom work will add approximately £1700 to the cost of a PPL.

---------

Aircraft MEL

If your training aircraft is fitted with a transponder but it is inoperative then no solo student flying is permitted, even if it's just circuit work.

---------

Exam invigilators

All students sitting PPL exams will have to be overseen by an invigilator. Another cost for the school, and ultimately the student.

---------

Anyone attending the CAA RTF-ATO roadshow tomorrow (Weds 13 Nov) at Sywell might like to ask the Authority why it is apparently continuing to gold-plate EASA AMCs despite multiple assurances from CAA CEO Andrew Haines that "there will be no more gold-plating of regulations".

Additionally, roadshow attendees might like to ask how this overblown manual and its attendant gold-plating regime sits with Minister without Portfolio Grant Schapps. In a recent statement concerning the GA Red Tape Challenge he said:

"We have identified a number of areas where existing regulations are unduly onerous, or where the CAA could improve its approach. The measures we are announcing today (6 November 2013) will ensure that the regulatory framework is proportionate - deregulating completely wherever possible, and minimising regulation where it is still necessary."

In the same press release, Aviation Minister Robert Goodwill stated:

"...making sure that, where appropriate, we ease the burden on what are often smaller operators and businesses who find navigating a complex regulatory framework particularly challenging."

[S-Works]

OK in order hopefully.....

The TK 30hrs is something the CAA are trying to 'recommend' with no legal grounding. I discussed this at a recent audit and told them that we would be sticking with 10hrs until such time as it was proven ineffective. They accepted this.

You are incorrect on the MEL, it only applies if you put it in the manual. It does not have to be in the manual. If you don't like it don't use that bit. The manuals are a guide not the law...

Exam invigilators. There has always been a requirement for the exam to be invigilated!! This does not mean someone sat in the room with the student, it could be the GRE in the next room, the receptionist or an FI ensuring that the student does not cheat. This means ensuring that they only enter the exam room with the required materials for the paper and nothing else in the room that might be used to cheat.

The requirement is for the GRE to issue and collect/mark the paper so its actually no change from the old system.

[jez d]

That all sounds very sensible, Bose.

However, while your ATO approval may have worked along those lines, the template manual differs:

At the beginning of the template manual it offers completion guidance, stating that text shown in blue is for guidance, text shown in red is where an ATO will need to provide their own specific information, and that where it is "required for the ATO to show its compliance" the text is written in black.

The CAA policy statement on 67 hours minimum TK classroom study is written in black.

MEL - Agreed, I hadn't spotted the non-mandatory elements. However, it should be noted that if the aircraft is also used for commercial air transport then the enforced MEL and limitations, in entirety, also apply to flight training.

Exam invigilators - The text (in black, i.e. mandatory according to the intro blurb) states: "The examination will be completed under the supervision of a Ground Examiner approved by the competent authority for the purpose. Candidates are not to be left alone in the examination room whilst the examination is in progress."

While the individual(s) who processed your ATO approval appear to have exercised restraint and common sense, the individual(s) who wrote the template manual appear to have a different agenda.

[S-Works]

You know the answer then!

Do your own!!

You can put way less in them than the template manuals and tailor to your needs not just the CAA.

[jez d]

Bose, it's all very well to say 'do your own' but there are plenty of schools who don't have the time or resources to create their own manuals and who have been relying on the release of a template manual to assist in their conversions.

If they now deviate from filling in the template manual exactly as the CAA have stipulated, including conformity with these new gold-plated policies, they will presumably have their applications rejected, exposing themselves to additional approval costs amounting to £170 per hour.

And if they do conform they will have to increase their PPL course fees by £1,700 to offset the 67 hours classroom requirement, and charge additional sums to pay for a ground examiner to sit in a room while his/her student sits their TK tests.

[md 600 driver]

Jezd any chance of a copy of the ATO manual

[S-Works]

And if they do conform they will have to increase their PPL course fees by £1,700 to offset the 67 hours classroom requirement, and charge additional sums to pay for a ground examiner to sit in a room while his/her student sits their TK tests.

Instead of blindly following what you see why not try your own AMC?

Here is what we did.....

Chose an online CBT provider for the PPL TK. Entered into a deal with the to provide the training which we obviously make a margin out of. Use the time tracking function of the provider to track 90hrs of self study. Then told the CAA that we are going to provide 10hrs of classroom training.

Accepted by the CAA.

The stuff in the manuals is not LAW it is guidance, even in the template manuals you do not have to follow to the letter what is in them, you can deviate if you can provide a simple clear statement that covers the requirements.

There is NO requirement for anyone to sit in the room with the student. The invigilator can be outside the exam room doing other things provided that they can ensure the student is not cheating. This has not changed. Therefore there is no need for you to pay anyone to sit with the student.

[Mickey Kaye]

Bose thank you for sharing you experiences

"Chose an on-line CBT provider for the PPL TK. Entered into a deal with the to provide the training which we obviously make a margin out of"

Doesn't this add to the total cost of a PPL with your organisation? Yet as in industry we compete world wide for flight training. Hasn't this just made flight training in UK/EU less competitive against flight training in the USA?

[BEagle]

A few errors from the CAA, it seems...

Firstly, there is NO mandatory LAPL groundschool requirement, even though the exams are the same.

Also, in the draft Training Manual, the author which was 'Aynho Aviation', the following wording had been crossed out:

• It is established CAA policy that the proportion of a course conducted as distance learning does not exceed 33% of the total hours required. Consequently at least 66 hours must be programmed as formal classroom instruction.

:hmm:

[Mickey Kaye]

A question with the template ATO manuals:

From time to time we get people don't have a SEP rating. Usually CPL/MEP holders. Do the template manuals give approval to allow us to train for this.

They don't include Night Training - Why is this. Seems a bit of an over sight?

[Cows getting bigger]

I think there is a communications issue here. Those of us who have dealt with the CAA as FTOs and/or AOC holders are used to having a two way dialogue with our TIs and FOIs. Consequently, we are content with bashing around concepts and ides when developing manuals.

Conversely, the conversion of RFs to ATOs will inevitably be the first real exposure many people will have beyond the old system of firing in a load of application and registration forms. The are used to clear regulation and generally accept the CAA's own interpretation of such regulation rather than offer their own means of compliance.

Maybe it would be worth RFs being allocated a specific TI who could then help to build that relationship? Of course, the word is that there are a severe lack of TIs. :(

Mickey, you will need specific approval for both. For example, the MEP to SEP route would require you to define a class rating 'course'. Not complex, just make sure you list all the approvals you think you will need on your initial application and then talk through with your TI or a friendly flying school.

[Mickey Kaye]

"For example, the MEP to SEP route would require you to define a class rating 'course"

And that's why this gets a bit hazy. I can teach someone from scratch to fly a SEP but if someone comes along and wants add an SEP rating then (unless we submit a wodge of paperwork) we can't.

Is it just me or does that seem a bit unnecessary?

[S-Works]

Mickey Kaye

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: York
Age: 42
Posts: 563
A question with the template ATO manuals:

From time to time we get people don't have a SEP rating. Usually CPL/MEP. Do the template manuals give approval to allow us to train for this.

They don't include Night Training - Why is this. Seems a bit of an over sight?


I was told at the audit this week the template manuals only cover transition from RTF to PPL ATO. If you want full ATO status then you have to go down the full approval route.

[Mickey Kaye]

Again that's why in my eyes its gets hazy.

At present every rf is allowed to offer SEP class rating courses and night ratings. Hence I think it should of been part of the template manuals.

[ifitaintboeing]

Firstly, there is NO mandatory LAPL groundschool requirement, even though the exams are the same.

Information Notice 2013/137

AMC1 FCL.115; FCL120 to Part-FCL confirms that the TK requirements (including syllabi) for the LAPL(A) and (H), including the 100 hours of instruction, are the same as for the PPL(A) and (H) respectively.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/sarg_IN_2013_137.pdf

ifitaint...

[Treadstone1]

Hi All

Just to give you a heads up, this is what it cost me to get my approvals looked at, not issued as yet...

Light Aircraft Pilots Licence (Aeroplanes) £100
Please note that information notice 2013/131 is soon to be superseded and the £100 quoted will now include the LAPL courses.
Light Aircraft Pilots Licence (Aeroplanes) extension course
Private Pilot Licence (Aeroplanes)
Light Aircraft Pilots Licence to Private Pilot Licence Upgrade (Aeroplanes)
Light Aircraft Pilots Licence including TMG to Private Pilot Licence Upgrade (Aeroplanes)
Night Rating (Aeroplanes)

Single Pilot Multi Engine Piston (Landplane) Class Rating £493
Class Rating Instructor Rating Single Pilot Single Engine Aeroplanes £647
Class Rating Instructor Rating Single Pilot Multi Engine Aeroplanes £647
Total £1887

Not Cheap...

[fireflybob]

I am trying to work out when the 100 hours of logged ground training actually becomes mandatory.

I understand it is a requirement for ATO but what abouts RFs who have not yet achieved ATO status?

Thanks for any help

[Whopity]

I was told at the audit this week the template manuals only cover transition from RTF to PPL ATO. If you want full ATO status then you have to go down the full approval route. Not what the briefing team stated; they said that the approval will cover LAPL, PPL, SEP and all the various LAPL-PPL conversions. Left hand -Right hand again!

Information Notice 2013/137A totally different interpretation to that given by the team at Koln!

[BEagle]

Quite so, Whopity!

AMC1 FCL.115; FCL.120 SYLLABUS OF THEORETICAL KNOWLEDGE FOR THE LAPL

(a) The training and examination should cover aspects related to non-technical skills in an integrated manner, taking into account the particular risks associated with the licence and the activity. The theoretical knowledge instruction provided by the ATO should include a certain element of formal classroom work but may also include other methods of delivery for example interactive video, slide or tape presentation, computer-based training and other media distance learning courses. The training organisation responsible for the training has to check if all the appropriate elements of the training course of theoretical knowledge instruction have been completed to a satisfactory standard before recommending the applicant for the examination.

AMC1 FCL.210; FCL.215 SYLLABUS OF THEORETICAL KNOWLEDGE FOR THE PPL(A) AND PPL(H)

The following tables contain the syllabi for the courses of theoretical knowledge, as well as for the theoretical knowledge examinations for the PPL(A) and PPL(H). The training and examination should cover aspects related to non-technical skills in an integrated manner, taking into account the particular risks associated to the licence and the activity. An approved course shall comprise at least 100 hours of theoretical knowledge instruction. This theoretical knowledge instruction provided by the ATO should include a certain element of formal classroom work but may include also such facilities as interactive video, slide or tape presentation, computer-based training and other media distance learning courses. The training organisation responsible for the training has to check if all the appropriate elements of the training course of theoretical knowledge instruction have been completed to a satisfactory standard before recommending the applicant for the examination.


Spot the difference? There is no AMC clause implying that 100 hours of theoretical knowledge is required for the LAPL.

Gold plating? Or cock-up??

[Danny boy]

Hi Everyone.
Has anyone finished their CAA SMS manual yet?
would be interested to know how people are getting on regarding the free template manual the CAA gave to RFTF to convert to an EASA ATO...

[S-Works]

Finished my SMS manual and it's fully approved and implemented.

[Jpiper]

Is anyone able to email me the templates off the CD?

Many thanks in advance.

[justmaybe]

jpiper
check pm's

[Danny boy]

Hi Bose x did you use the CAA template?

[S-Works]

I used the CAA guidelines and plagiarised a load from a friend. Important to use colour in them when you are doing stuff like Risk Assessment, tolerability and Mitigation. You will also need to define how you manage risk once identified. We chose to use a risk register in addition to the main SMS.

[Cylinder Head]

I finally got a helpful person at Gatwick who told me about this link on their website.

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2681&pagetype=90 (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2681&pagetype=90)

Good luck everyone, I can honestly say that I didn't realise how badly we had all been teaching people to fly without the essential bits of paper. Thank heavens EASA has seen the error of our ways and ensured that we will have plenty of paper to improve safety. Shame I won't have time to teach anyone fly any more.

[boynefly]

I'm looking to help out small flying school (only two or three aircraft with 2 instructors) to complete the process using the template from the CAA web site, has anyone got an example of a completed manual that they can share?

I'm particularly interested in design and layout of all the necessary forms to be used.

Thanks in anticipation......:)

[foxmoth]

Just had a look at this, it seems to me that this is fine for an Airline or even a BIG setup like Oxford, but for most schools and clubs this is WAY over the top and full of unnecessary B.S.:eek:

[fireflybob]

Worth looking at this thread for latest:-

RF to ATO (http://www.pprune.org/flying-instructors-examiners/543395-rtf-ato.html)

[Whopity]

I'm particularly interested in design and layout of all the necessary forms to be used.
The forms are unique to the organisation; you make up whatever forms you need for your specific operation, in whatever format you want.

The manual describes an individual organisation's method of operation. Forms will include training documentation, which is readily available from AFE and Pooleys, and the various records you deceide to keep which are individual in nature.

If you are acting as a consultant, then you need have a firm grasp of what you are doing and be prepared to generate the necessary documents based upon the published requirement. Unless you are setting up a new ATO, you may be wasting your time.