Falcon 5X

[LGW Vulture]

Is rather ugly - IMV.

Dassault Unveils Largest Falcon Jet: 5X (http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_10_21_2013_p0-628775.xml&p=1)

Any further comments?

[M-ONGO]

Quite nice looking I believe.

The fore galley will have business aviation's first skylight to provide bright daylight illumination. An electrochromic filter will diminish unwanted glare.

Rubbish. The Astra SpX/G100 has one of sorts in the toilet area. Copycat French!

[CaptainProp]

I am positively surprised by the cabin size and two-engine design of the 5X. Although a bit too late (in my opinion) I think the next one, with larger cabin and extended range, will be very interesting and could give Gulfstream and Bombardier a real run for the money in Russia (CIS) and China (Asia).

CP

[Rabina]

One inch bigger windows huh? A truly unique selling point for a $ 45M business jet.

[fatmanmedia]

I'm disappointed by this jet, $45m (introductory price) for something that's not as fast as the G650, not as good looking as the 7x, i saw in the PowerPoint presentation it uses "airline standard engines" which are Safran Snecma Silvercrest turbofans.

They say it has a bigger cross section but who will notice, 1 inch more head room and 2 inches more shoulder room over a G650?

Which airline uses those engines?

The flight deck looks good with an FBW side stick controller, an HUD for both seats but what i'm finding interesting is the ability for the seats to recline by 160 degrees, are we going to have pilots sleeping on the flight deck in mid flight? It has rather complex wings which look like a scaled down rip off the 787 wings.


It could be a good bird, but I don't see it.

fats

[silverware]

Like it a lot, hooray for the trends set by other manufacturers regarding cabin height/width and window diameters.
At last Dassault realizes that a higher ceiling is much more comfortable than the current 1.88, especially on long trips that Falcons can easily do.

From a flight attendant's perspective; I truly hope they reinvented their galley as well, Dassault galleys are absolute sh*t to work in!
Little storage, no place to temporarily put stuff (other than the front lav...), little or no work surface and a tiny ice drawer and sink.
Wonder who the launch customer will be, SPA?

[B200Drvr]

Yup, $45 million for a relatively short range, IMHO if they want to compete with the big boys they should have gone for the 5500 nm range. Its is no good producing something that can do the same as your competitors in your target market, you have to do it better, and while they are saying BLAH BLAH 20% more efficient, the fact is that it still does about what a 450 does.

[tuna hp]

I'm surprised by the negative reactions, this 5X is much more exciting than any of the reporters or analysts had dared speculate. They were all guessing a plane about the Falcon 2000 in size, with the same 900/2000/7X fuselage cross section, with something like 3500 to 4500nm range.

And $45M "well equipped" sounds like it would be competetive. Don't G550s and G650s sell for something like $55M and $70M GREEN with no options or interior? Sure those planes are in a different class, bigger, longer range, and heavier built, but the 5X will have some pure advantages as well: much better field performance and efficiency. Also, I think that a finished Global 5000 is somewhere around $45M and this plane seems like it will be much better.

[tuna hp]

Which airline uses those engines?

They're referring to the CFM56. Different engine. The Silvercrest is a purpose built business jet engine for the 9,500 to 12,000 lb thrust range from what I understand. Well, they may pretend to try to market it to regional airliners, but no new airliners are going to be built with engines this small. Maybe they could get a deal to re-engine something like the CRJ200.

It's not as fast as the G650 but isn't it a tradeoff? Don't the aerodynamic qualities that give the 5X superior field performance and low speed / low altitude performance also make it less optimized for higher speeds?

[con-pilot]

Has any performance figures been released on the 5X's high and hot performance?

Like Aspen on a 30+C day in the summer. That is the deal breaker to me. If you can depart ASE and go to the New York City area non-stop in the 5X, when the OAT is +30 C in Aspen, that will sell very well.

[galaxy flyer]

Heck, a Global will do that, con-pilot. I did ASE-HPN and turned to nearby home without fueling. Better yet, it can't operate out of ASE, so one would have an excuse to go to Rifle. I choose Rifle if the slightest thing is out of place st ASE. Runway light is OTS, broad daylight, KRIL here I come.

I think it will be a worthy plane, just not sure how it will fit in with the 7X and how fat it will be.

GF

[CL300]

7X will be short lived IMO; 8X or 9X here we come. Even a 2X for that matter..
When the first indication of the selling trend will come out, it will be very easy to accommodate a stretched cabin, a third engine and get the 8000Nm out of it. The Silvercrest can go up to 15000Lbs and down to 10000.... This get a large spectrum of capabilities.

And the absolute dream for dassault.. ONE type rating for all...

[con-pilot]

Heck, a Global will do that, con-pilot. I did ASE-HPN and turned to nearby home without fueling. Better yet, it can't operate out of ASE, so one would have an excuse to go to Rifle. I choose Rifle if the slightest thing is out of place st ASE. Runway light is OTS, broad daylight, KRIL here I come.


Yeah, there are some that can do that, 900EX, G-550, G-650 and of course the Global. But is not the Global one step above the 5X, both in price and performance?

I surely do agree with you about going anywhere else but ASE when you have any excuse to do so. There were a few times the only place I could get into was Grand Junction when the weather was down over the entire area. Back in the late 70s, early 80s there were no approaches to any of the ski area airports and GJT was about the only place you could into during the winter.

Grand Junction I liked a lot, there were normal people there. :p

Not to mention ILSs and real hotels.

[CL300]

You cannot just "add" a third engine if the aircraft was certified with two.


of course the falcon 50 is not a 200 with 3 engines..( more or less) in 1993, when the FNX program was launched, these options were all covered at length..

[con-pilot]

You cannot just "add" a third engine if the aircraft was certified with two.

Actually that is exactly what Dassault did when they made the Falcon 50. They added new tail and a third engine on the 20. But the performance was not what they expected, so they designed a new wing, which is used on not only the 50 series, but the 900 series as well.

However, they did have to receive a new certification for the 50, which carried over to the 900. One reason there is a single type rating for both aircraft, DA50 counts for the 900 as well. At least in the US it does.

Which brings up a question, is it the same type rating for the 50-900 in the EU as well? Think I knew the answer to that once, but forgot, old age you know. :\

[tuna hp]

7X will be short lived IMO;

I think there is still demand for a trijet regardless. Operators who either (1) genuinely highly value the safety characteristics of a trijet, (2) need more range than the 5X but better field performance than the 8X/9X/whatever next larger plane they build off this new 5X fuselage, or (3) have to conform with ocean overflight rules for whatever reasons (maybe they're a charter) and need three engines to avoid ETOPS regulations.

8X or 9X here we come. Even a 2X for that matter..
When the first indication of the selling trend will come out, it will be very easy to accommodate a stretched cabin, a third engine and get the 8000Nm out of it.

Dassault has apparently hinted to expect to expect more product announcement(s) based on this platform. The writeups are saying to expect another announcement before the end of 2014. However I doubt that Dassault will ever design another clean sheet trijet. Trijets are just too fuel and maintenance inefficient, even for the use cases when their performance tradeoffs are advantageous. More likely Dassault will implement the new GE engines that Bombardier is using on the new Globals OR, possibly even more likely, the new PW800 engine since Dassault already has a relationship with PWC and PWC hasn't announced any customers for the PW800 yet.

You cannot just "add" a third engine if the aircraft was certified with two.

Well you can do something just take as an example how Dassault modified the Falcon 50/900 platform for the 2000. However, I don't think its likely they'll ever design another trijet. Significant updates to the 7X, yes almost definitely, a new clean sheet trijet, almost impossible.

[duxone]

In easaland the license endorsement is DA50/900....need differences training to drive the other

[CaptainProp]

So you think there will be a stretched 7X in the future? 8X or 9X or whatever with common rating? If so, do you think they'll give it longer legs and cabin or just stretched cabin?

I personally suspect that any future aircraft will be based on the new two engine 5X rather than on the 7X. I hope I'm wrong though as I think the 7X is a brilliant aircraft.....

CP

[con-pilot]

@con-pilot: The EASA Falcon 50 rating covers the 900 Classic as well, but you require differences training between the variants.

That's what I thought, thank you.

Systems wise, the 50 and 900 are basically identical and you could move from one to the other with no or little problems. Until the EX series came out, as the avionics package are completely different between the 50EX and the 900EX. Then the 900EAsy came out and just the EAsy requires a type now.

I still say it was a mistake to cancel the 50 series aircraft. The 50EX has very impressive performance, not to mention a joy to fly.

[tuna hp]

So you think there will be a stretched 7X in the future? 8X or 9X or whatever with common rating? If so, do you think they'll give it longer legs and cabin or just stretched cabin?

Falcon 7X first deliveries started in I think 2007. That makes it about 6 years old, which means that (if they follow industry standard product lifecycle patterns) they are due for a major update within the next 2 years. More range, more performance, more overall refinement, just as they refreshed the original model with the 900B and then, several years later, the 900EX, and then, a few years after that, the 900LX. Do they stretch the cabin? If at all, only by a few inches. Dassault hasn't stretched any of their prior models between refreshes if you look at all iterations of the 50, 900 and 2000. It's just not completely unknown in the industry, look at the Citation X/Ten refresh.

But as far as the true Gulfstream/Global competitor, that will definitely be based on the 5X fuselage. People can speculate that it will be a trijet but I find that extremely unlikely. My best guess based off nothing other than news of new engine programs, Dassault's history of working with PWC, and a guesstimation of the amount of thrust that the "Falcon 9X" will need is that they will use 2x PW800 engines.

Dassault will definitely offer a model with increased range to tap what is currently by far the most lucrative biz av market.

[CaptainProp]

Interesting.... You see, I would have thought that a potential future 8X / 9X would be a development of the 7X, also with three engines. But as several people already pointed out, perhaps there is no financial viability in building more tri-jets.

CP

[CL300]

It ill not be a 9X, but the "8X"; it will have three engines, 3 Silvercrest at the minimum thrust 10k each, will go 8000 Nm, with a fuselage 3 meters longer than the actual 5X..

The entry level though, i have no clue :-)

[con-pilot]

Well say what you many about the dependability of modern day jet engines, but in the middle of the night, when you're over the middle of the Pacific Ocean, there is something very, very comforting about having three engines behind you.

But then again I'm an old fart and think there is a lot of truth in this old joke:

"Say, why do you only fly in four engine airliners when you fly over an ocean?"

"Because they don't make five engine airliners." ;)

[jetopa]

"Say, why do you only fly in four engine airliners when you fly over an ocean?"

"Because they don't make five engine airliners."


Nicely said! :D

[aerochip]

5x is a needed replacement in Dassault line-up for 900EXy. 5x beats 900EXy in every category. 5x is larger, has useful galley and larger cabin; 5x has more range, 5x is more efficient, 5x has longer range, etc, etc,

But the most compelling factor for Dassault is that the 5x will be less expensive to build than the 900EXy, being built with automated processes instead of the labor intensive build of the 900EXy.

On paper, the 5x also appears to beat out the G450 and G5000 in terms of size, range and efficiency. Nice offering in my opinion.

[CaptainProp]

Does anyone have rough numbers of ordered but not yet delivered 7Xs? I guess current serial numbers being delivered are around the 220 mark and I read somewhere that about 30 will be delivered in 2013.

CP

[tuna hp]

In July 2012 they sent out a press release announcing the completion of their 200th 7X. That should give a pretty good starting point.

[CaptainProp]

Yes and that one was recently delivered to Prince Albert II and since then another 5-10 (?) have been delivered. I was more after how many more firm orders they have for the 7X or how many they expect to deliver over next 2-3 years. Is there still a demand for factory new 7Xs or are buyers at this end of the market going for the G6000 instead? Perhaps waiting for a G650 position?

CP

[tuna hp]

Isn't the G6000 a significantly older plane? Sure they used to call it the Global Express XRS and before that plain "GLEX" but it was around far before the 7X's 2007 debut. I think many buyers prefer the 7X. Obviously it has a much smaller cabin, but from what I understand it has better fuel economy, better field performance, the better reputation for design and reliability from Dassault as opposed to Bombardier, the better Dassault global service network, and of course it has 3 engines which I think is almost mandatory for some small operators that want to fly far over oceans.

I could be wrong on any/all of these points.

[CL300]

S/N 215 to be delivered in December, 225 in june. S/N up to 260+ sold

[Steak&Kidney_Pie]

So the aircraft is bigger than the 7X, and will lead to a new line of aircraft....

Dassault Reveals New Falcon 5X Business Jet | Aviation International News (http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aviation-international-news/2013-11-01/dassault-reveals-new-falcon-5x-business-jet)

[CaptainProp]

Thanks CL300, that's the type of information I was looking for.
Now we'll have to wait and see if and how much the 5X will cannabilise on future 7X orders....

CP

[Tray Surfer]

I like the sound of the galley skylight... But that is all I have to say on that one! :D

[CL300]

not much eating on the F7X sales, aircraft is only scheduled for delivery second half 2017, and still short on range ; however the 8X, will definitely dig the grave of the 7X..Soon to be announced IMHO.

[CaptainProp]

Yea, perhaps you're right.... So the 8X is "expected" to be a 3-engine replacement for the 7X? Hopefully it'll have similar avionics etc to the 7X, so that pilots can fly both, with only a difference course between the two.

CP

[Booglebox]

Given their history of milking previous designs for many updates / years, why would Dassault make 200 examples of a clean-sheet design and then throw it away to build the 8X?
Whatever the successor to the 7X is, my money is on it being based on the 7X (with the usual newer engines / new avionics / aerodynamic tweaks).

[CL300]

well , this is not what was said at NBAA. The 5X, even though has a new fuselage and wing, this wing is the result of the 7X experience.
Now the 5X has a complete FBW system including air brakes, flaperons, etc..The 8X will have to compete on the ULR segment, and jump the 8000 Nm barrier. The new version of EPIC/Easy is bound to make the dual HUD as a primary flight display, in color, all weather capability.
The 7X architecture does not and will not have this capability. We might see a lighter version of the 7X, and with a new rear section, may be a twin engine based on this design.
The common type is a dream for Dassault, but not on this generation of planes. CCQ is already available (900Easy/2000Easy); 7X/5X, not the same systems at all therefore very unlikely..
The 5X will cost 40% less to be build, this in itself give the answer, maintenance intervals at 800 hours and msg3 are just the last nail on the coffin for the older designs.
Dassault dumped the falcon 10 in an instant, the 50 in an eye blink ; the 900 have to keep up , like the 2000, until they get the FBW more "user friendly" then it will be it.
from 2020 onwards, i do not think that we will be able to recognize the fleet..( compare to today)

[tuna hp]

Yea, perhaps you're right.... So the 8X is "expected" to be a 3-engine replacement for the 7X? Hopefully it'll have similar avionics etc to the 7X, so that pilots can fly both, with only a difference course between the two.


I very much doubt that they will design any more trijets. There is a market for the trijet's unique abilities regarding ETOPS but in the end from my understanding, the decision always had to come down to being able to build a lighter and more economical plane with 3 engines than with 2. When Dassault built the F50, there were no business jet engines that would have been powerful enough to power it with only 2 of them. Gulfstream was taking the approach of using engines from commercial airliners but those engines were way bigger than what dassault thought was needed to complete the same range mission. Same deal with the F900: There were no acceptable options in the ~8,200 lb thrust range that would have been needed to make that plane as a twinjet. Same with the F7X: until very recently there have been no engines in the 11-12,000 lb thrust range that would have been acceptable. Now there is Silvercrest and a few others and really now there are efficient, contemporary engines to suit any thrust need, so I really doubt we will see any more trijets.

Since they already designed it and there is still a market, I do expect that we will see advancements of the 7X and they will continue selling it for many years to come. But why design a new one?

[DOCTOR BOMBAY]

Its a guessing game, I fly the 7X mostly on 5000nm missions, if I could have a wish list, it would be, a meter longer with three new 10000lbs engines and 8000nm range, :ok:they may call it the 7XER, and you will sell another 200+

[CL300]

They have to discontinue the actual FBW system.. and it was said by the Dassault CEO, last week in a french newspaper that the trijet 7X will evolve. NBAA they said 8X...hmmm
Bets on !!

[FCS_TEST]

Discontinue the fbw ?....hello !!! Stop the morning booze mate )))))

[CL300]

You shall read better.; the ACTUAL FBW....
The 5X FBW is nothing to compare to the 7X one. Hence a new certification, if a new certification anyway, you just reshuffle the aircraft fundamentals, and you have a new type...not a 7X-EX or else...you have an F8X..

[FCS_TEST]

Right...whatever... it's not going to change anything on the pilot side anyway !

[FCS_TEST]

CL 300...Been reading your previous post on the 7X, are you one of this annoying pilot jealous of the Dassault "savoir faire" or just a forum ****** ?

[FCS_TEST]

Censored ...en français: un branleur de forum !

[CL300]

Right...whatever... it's not going to change anything on the pilot side anyway !

Well it will change a bit actually.. Flaperons, Airbrakes...All new handling capabilities, very different, like if you wanted to compare Airbus FBW and Dassault ... a Joystick yes, but a complete different behavior...

Have you flown the 7X ?

You do not have too long to wait...The announcement is coming...

ps. Quand on ne sait pas on se tait, on bien on contacte en mp, ou encore on se rencontre et tu te fait expliquer..

[CL300]

Dassault Plans To Launch Another Falcon Next Year
Hot on the heels of the recently unveiled Falcon 5X, Dassault will make another addition to the Falcon line of business jets and an announcement can be expected next year, Dassault Falcon Jet president and CEO John Rosanvallon told AIN yesterday at the Dubai Airshow. The addition will come at the top of the product line, he said, without revealing further details. Rosanvallon did say it will not replace an existing product. Dassault’s current flagship, the Falcon 7X, entered service in 2007 and “is still in the first part of its service life,” he said. “Most of our programs live between 20 and 30 years and sell 500 examples.” The company has sold two hundred 7Xs and its delivery backlog stands near 50. The new top-of-the-line aircraft will bring the Falcon offering to six jets and will be priced above the $52 million Falcon 7X. The list price of the under-development Falcon 5X is $45 million, while the other models span from the $26 million Falcon 2000S to the $30 million Falcon 2000LXS to the $40 million Falcon 900LX.

source AIN

[tuna hp]

To anyone who knows a little about aircraft design, do the 5X stats seem to make sense?

Falcon 5X
BOW: 38,100
MTOW: 69,600
Fuel: 28,200
Range: 5,200 @ M.80
lbs fuel per nm max range: ~5.4

Falcon 7X
BOW: 34,300
MTOW: 70,000
Fuel: 31,940
RangeL 5,950 @ M.80
lbs fuel per nm max range: ~5.4

I get that the 5X is 3,800 lbs heavier than the 7X and has a 8" larger diameter fuselage, but it also is using two clean sheet design brand new engines rather than three 25 year old engines. Two engines is fundamentally much more efficient than three plus there is the generational upgrade in technology. If you compare the G650 at its 7000nm @ M.85 performance, it only uses 16% more fuel per nm than the 5X despite the additional range, larger cabin, and 15,900 extra lbs of structure its carrying around (42% higher BOW).

What gives? With its stats it seems like the 5X should have more like 5,700 nm range. If Dassault product history is any indication (look at the Falcon 50EX/900EX/2000EX), they are due for a major refresh of the 7X that would add several hundred nm of range which would make the older trijet with longer range significantly more efficient than the newer twinjet with the same MTOW.

[dirk85]

https://www.dassaultfalcon.com/en/MediaCenter/Newsd/Pages/PR%202017/Falcon-5X.aspx

Falcon 5X program scraped.

[Heathrow Harry]

After a three-year delay that was made much worse this past fall by news of more technical problems (https://www.flyingmag.com/silvercrest-engine-issues-continue-to-plague-dassault-5x-certification) with the Safran Silvercrest engines for the Falcon 5X, Dassault today said it is cancelling the jet's development program and starting fresh with a new large-cabin airplane powered by Pratt & Whitney Canada engines.

The new jet is scheduled to enter the market in 2022, Dassault announced in a press release issued shortly after Safran announced it expected Dassault to begin the process of cancelling the Silvercrast engine contract. The as-yet-unnamed jet will feature the same cabin cross-section of the 5X and a 5,500-nm range, Dassault said.

The first Silvercrest engines were originally planned to be delivered to Dassault for 5X testing by the end of 2013, but technical issues delayed that timeline. In 2015 and 2016, more serious technical issues led Safran to announce a new schedule that would lead to engines being delivered for Falcon 5X flight testing by the end of 2017. This past fall, Safran experienced problems with the high-pressure compressor and informed Dassault of an additional delay and a performance shortfall, making a revised 2020 entry into service of the aircraft impossible and leading to order cancellations as customers’ patience ran out.

“Considering the magnitude of the risks involved both on the technical and schedule aspects of the Silvercrest program, Dassault Aviation initiates the termination process of the Silvercrest contract leading to the end of the Falcon 5X program and plans to start negotiations with Safran,” Dassault said in the press release.

The French manufacturer offered no timeline for when the 5X replacement formally will be launched.

[Farrell]

https://dms.licdn.com/playback/C5600AQHMpfnulR2lTg/41c2b65712654b898dad8c11df4d127a/feedshare-mp4_500/1479932728445-v0ch3x?e=1513444837&v=alpha&t=k-CNwVOqggZTVBnRNX1NV5krBjQpVpG36trNqHs4Cgs

Some light entertainment from a Falcon