Falcon 5X

[LGW Vulture]

Is rather ugly - IMV.

Dassault Unveils Largest Falcon Jet: 5X

Any further comments?

[M-ONGO]

Quite nice looking I believe.

The fore galley will have business aviation's first skylight to provide bright daylight illumination. An electrochromic filter will diminish unwanted glare.

Rubbish. The Astra SpX/G100 has one of sorts in the toilet area. Copycat French!

[CaptainProp]

I am positively surprised by the cabin size and two-engine design of the 5X. Although a bit too late (in my opinion) I think the next one, with larger cabin and extended range, will be very interesting and could give Gulfstream and Bombardier a real run for the money in Russia (CIS) and China (Asia).

CP

[Rabina]

5X

One inch bigger windows huh? A truly unique selling point for a $ 45M business jet.

[fatmanmedia]

I'm disappointed by this jet, $45m (introductory price) for something that's not as fast as the G650, not as good looking as the 7x, i saw in the PowerPoint presentation it uses "airline standard engines" which are Safran Snecma Silvercrest turbofans.

They say it has a bigger cross section but who will notice, 1 inch more head room and 2 inches more shoulder room over a G650?

Which airline uses those engines?

The flight deck looks good with an FBW side stick controller, an HUD for both seats but what i'm finding interesting is the ability for the seats to recline by 160 degrees, are we going to have pilots sleeping on the flight deck in mid flight? It has rather complex wings which look like a scaled down rip off the 787 wings.


It could be a good bird, but I don't see it.

fats

[silverware]

Like it a lot, hooray for the trends set by other manufacturers regarding cabin height/width and window diameters.
At last Dassault realizes that a higher ceiling is much more comfortable than the current 1.88, especially on long trips that Falcons can easily do.

From a flight attendant's perspective; I truly hope they reinvented their galley as well, Dassault galleys are absolute sh*t to work in!
Little storage, no place to temporarily put stuff (other than the front lav...), little or no work surface and a tiny ice drawer and sink.
Wonder who the launch customer will be, SPA?

[B200Drvr]

Yup, $45 million for a relatively short range, IMHO if they want to compete with the big boys they should have gone for the 5500 nm range. Its is no good producing something that can do the same as your competitors in your target market, you have to do it better, and while they are saying BLAH BLAH 20% more efficient, the fact is that it still does about what a 450 does.

[tuna hp]

I'm surprised by the negative reactions, this 5X is much more exciting than any of the reporters or analysts had dared speculate. They were all guessing a plane about the Falcon 2000 in size, with the same 900/2000/7X fuselage cross section, with something like 3500 to 4500nm range.

And $45M "well equipped" sounds like it would be competetive. Don't G550s and G650s sell for something like $55M and $70M GREEN with no options or interior? Sure those planes are in a different class, bigger, longer range, and heavier built, but the 5X will have some pure advantages as well: much better field performance and efficiency. Also, I think that a finished Global 5000 is somewhere around $45M and this plane seems like it will be much better.

[tuna hp]

Which airline uses those engines?

They're referring to the CFM56. Different engine. The Silvercrest is a purpose built business jet engine for the 9,500 to 12,000 lb thrust range from what I understand. Well, they may pretend to try to market it to regional airliners, but no new airliners are going to be built with engines this small. Maybe they could get a deal to re-engine something like the CRJ200.

It's not as fast as the G650 but isn't it a tradeoff? Don't the aerodynamic qualities that give the 5X superior field performance and low speed / low altitude performance also make it less optimized for higher speeds?

[con-pilot]

Has any performance figures been released on the 5X's high and hot performance?

Like Aspen on a 30+C day in the summer. That is the deal breaker to me. If you can depart ASE and go to the New York City area non-stop in the 5X, when the OAT is +30 C in Aspen, that will sell very well.

[galaxy flyer]

Heck, a Global will do that, con-pilot. I did ASE-HPN and turned to nearby home without fueling. Better yet, it can't operate out of ASE, so one would have an excuse to go to Rifle. I choose Rifle if the slightest thing is out of place st ASE. Runway light is OTS, broad daylight, KRIL here I come.

I think it will be a worthy plane, just not sure how it will fit in with the 7X and how fat it will be.

GF

[CL300]

7X will be short lived IMO; 8X or 9X here we come. Even a 2X for that matter..
When the first indication of the selling trend will come out, it will be very easy to accommodate a stretched cabin, a third engine and get the 8000Nm out of it. The Silvercrest can go up to 15000Lbs and down to 10000.... This get a large spectrum of capabilities.

And the absolute dream for dassault.. ONE type rating for all...

[con-pilot]

Heck, a Global will do that, con-pilot. I did ASE-HPN and turned to nearby home without fueling. Better yet, it can't operate out of ASE, so one would have an excuse to go to Rifle. I choose Rifle if the slightest thing is out of place st ASE. Runway light is OTS, broad daylight, KRIL here I come.

Yeah, there are some that can do that, 900EX, G-550, G-650 and of course the Global. But is not the Global one step above the 5X, both in price and performance?

I surely do agree with you about going anywhere else but ASE when you have any excuse to do so. There were a few times the only place I could get into was Grand Junction when the weather was down over the entire area. Back in the late 70s, early 80s there were no approaches to any of the ski area airports and GJT was about the only place you could into during the winter.

Grand Junction I liked a lot, there were normal people there.

Not to mention ILSs and real hotels.

[CL300]

You cannot just "add" a third engine if the aircraft was certified with two.

of course the falcon 50 is not a 200 with 3 engines..( more or less) in 1993, when the FNX program was launched, these options were all covered at length..

[con-pilot]

You cannot just "add" a third engine if the aircraft was certified with two.

Actually that is exactly what Dassault did when they made the Falcon 50. They added new tail and a third engine on the 20. But the performance was not what they expected, so they designed a new wing, which is used on not only the 50 series, but the 900 series as well.

However, they did have to receive a new certification for the 50, which carried over to the 900. One reason there is a single type rating for both aircraft, DA50 counts for the 900 as well. At least in the US it does.

Which brings up a question, is it the same type rating for the 50-900 in the EU as well? Think I knew the answer to that once, but forgot, old age you know.

[tuna hp]

7X will be short lived IMO;

I think there is still demand for a trijet regardless. Operators who either (1) genuinely highly value the safety characteristics of a trijet, (2) need more range than the 5X but better field performance than the 8X/9X/whatever next larger plane they build off this new 5X fuselage, or (3) have to conform with ocean overflight rules for whatever reasons (maybe they're a charter) and need three engines to avoid ETOPS regulations.

8X or 9X here we come. Even a 2X for that matter..
When the first indication of the selling trend will come out, it will be very easy to accommodate a stretched cabin, a third engine and get the 8000Nm out of it.

Dassault has apparently hinted to expect to expect more product announcement(s) based on this platform. The writeups are saying to expect another announcement before the end of 2014. However I doubt that Dassault will ever design another clean sheet trijet. Trijets are just too fuel and maintenance inefficient, even for the use cases when their performance tradeoffs are advantageous. More likely Dassault will implement the new GE engines that Bombardier is using on the new Globals OR, possibly even more likely, the new PW800 engine since Dassault already has a relationship with PWC and PWC hasn't announced any customers for the PW800 yet.

You cannot just "add" a third engine if the aircraft was certified with two.

Well you can do something just take as an example how Dassault modified the Falcon 50/900 platform for the 2000. However, I don't think its likely they'll ever design another trijet. Significant updates to the 7X, yes almost definitely, a new clean sheet trijet, almost impossible.

[duxone]

In easaland the license endorsement is DA50/900....need differences training to drive the other

[CaptainProp]

So you think there will be a stretched 7X in the future? 8X or 9X or whatever with common rating? If so, do you think they'll give it longer legs and cabin or just stretched cabin?

I personally suspect that any future aircraft will be based on the new two engine 5X rather than on the 7X. I hope I'm wrong though as I think the 7X is a brilliant aircraft.....

CP

[con-pilot]

@con-pilot: The EASA Falcon 50 rating covers the 900 Classic as well, but you require differences training between the variants.

That's what I thought, thank you.

Systems wise, the 50 and 900 are basically identical and you could move from one to the other with no or little problems. Until the EX series came out, as the avionics package are completely different between the 50EX and the 900EX. Then the 900EAsy came out and just the EAsy requires a type now.

I still say it was a mistake to cancel the 50 series aircraft. The 50EX has very impressive performance, not to mention a joy to fly.

[tuna hp]

So you think there will be a stretched 7X in the future? 8X or 9X or whatever with common rating? If so, do you think they'll give it longer legs and cabin or just stretched cabin?

Falcon 7X first deliveries started in I think 2007. That makes it about 6 years old, which means that (if they follow industry standard product lifecycle patterns) they are due for a major update within the next 2 years. More range, more performance, more overall refinement, just as they refreshed the original model with the 900B and then, several years later, the 900EX, and then, a few years after that, the 900LX. Do they stretch the cabin? If at all, only by a few inches. Dassault hasn't stretched any of their prior models between refreshes if you look at all iterations of the 50, 900 and 2000. It's just not completely unknown in the industry, look at the Citation X/Ten refresh.

But as far as the true Gulfstream/Global competitor, that will definitely be based on the 5X fuselage. People can speculate that it will be a trijet but I find that extremely unlikely. My best guess based off nothing other than news of new engine programs, Dassault's history of working with PWC, and a guesstimation of the amount of thrust that the "Falcon 9X" will need is that they will use 2x PW800 engines.

Dassault will definitely offer a model with increased range to tap what is currently by far the most lucrative biz av market.