View Full Version : Balloon-assisted lack of RVSM
mivens
2nd Oct 2013, 17:11
A bad day at the office - another incident where there were problems dealing with unreliable airspeed:
Balloon hit left A319 pilots with airspeed problem (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/balloon-hit-left-a319-pilots-with-airspeed-problem-391229/)
Yes, well, the pilots' training is one issue, which I'm sure we will explore exhaustively, from both the real experts' and the Flight Sim experts' points of view.
But I would have said that
the presence of hot air balloons in the terminal airspace. is of equal importance, assuming that it is controlled airspace, given that
a collision with the balloon envelope could have been “catastrophic”, given the forces involved. It points out that there were 143 balloon sightings by pilots last year and that some evasive manoeuvres were of such severity that they triggered cockpit alarms.Separation from other aircraft is not supposed to rely on a sharp lookout and violent evasive manoeuvres in controlled airspace, and a banner-towing balloon (is there really such a thing?) is an aircraft.
Just issuing a warning is NOT adequate, even in daytime and VMC.
philbky
2nd Oct 2013, 18:41
Banner towing balloons are not uncommon in the Rio terminal area. I've been taken aback seeing them on visits to the area where they float freely through the terminal area for both airports.
If these things are at 12,000' in controlled airspace;
a. shouldn't they be transponding in some form?
b. if they are, why didn't ATC advise of their proximity?
RatherBeFlying
2nd Oct 2013, 20:22
Sounds like a good opportunity to practice the unreliable airspeed drill;)
After all the ITCZ is not that far away and we are all well aware of how badly things can turn there.
I assumed these are manned balloons, but maybe I'm wrong? What is it doing at 12,000' anyway; nobody can read advertising from that distance.
belfrybat
2nd Oct 2013, 22:42
The ballons are unmanned and usually made of paper and carry a spirit or kerosene wick for lift. They can be huge and the banner is usually in homage of some football team or the "club" that made it.
They're illegal due to the air traffic and fire hazards but the irresponsible gits don't care. They're lofted in some isolated place and let drift over the urban areas, where they have caused several fires over the years.
ATC did warn about it but the crew got busy with something else and didn't keep a look-out.
A Squared
3rd Oct 2013, 06:56
given that
Separation from other aircraft is not supposed to rely on a sharp lookout and violent evasive manoeuvres in controlled airspace, and a banner-towing balloon (is there really such a thing?) is an aircraft.
There's plenty of controlled airspace around the world in which no separation is provided for VFR traffic. US class E is one example.
blind pew
3rd Oct 2013, 07:29
Les balloons de Tura à Saint-hilaire du Touvet - YouTube
Video of the smaller version at French paragliding festival
Have seen larger versions which take a team of six to launch.
CRayner
3rd Oct 2013, 07:52
Smethwick blaze: fire chiefs tell public to stop using Chinese lanterns | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jul/01/smethwick-fire-chiefs-chinese-lanterns)
The recent fire in Smethwick is a case in point. I suppose if the wind had been in a different quarter this thing might have drifted into the path of a plane taking off from Birmingham. Even though the metal content of these things is fairly small I guess that they might well cause engine failure if ingested.
Scary.
Vobiscum
3rd Oct 2013, 10:26
One of those chinese lanterns set fire to a conifer near my house. Right next to parked cars. Idiots.
philbky
3rd Oct 2013, 11:21
http://www.flickr.com/photos/philbky/10067585403/
This balloon appeared over Barra de Tijuca at around 09.00 on Christmas morning 2009, floating approximately northeastwards. I estimate the height to have been circa 6000ft and, whilst that time was not the busiest in the airspace, two GOL 737s and a TAM A320 were in the vicinity while the contraption was visible.
I would have said that from top to bottom the whole assembly would have been around 70 feet.
SLFguy
4th Oct 2013, 12:31
I assumed these are manned balloons, but maybe I'm wrong? What is it doing at 12,000' anyway; nobody can read advertising from that distance.
Perhaps they were advertising Breitlings..
underfire
4th Oct 2013, 15:59
It started with a Disney movie..mostly outlawed in the US at this point.
Here at Poznan, they set a record by launching 11,000 of them at once
http://i41.tinypic.com/141tjl0.jpg
There's plenty of controlled airspace around the world in which no separation is provided for VFR traffic. US class E is one example.I'm sure there is. But then commercial air transport flights are not supposed to be operating under VFR, are they? (That's a question...it's been a long time...)
Do they get a separation service from ATC in such airspace?
A Squared
4th Oct 2013, 17:49
I'm sure there is. But then commercial air transport flights are not supposed to be operating under VFR, are they? (That's a question...it's been a long time...)
That's generally true. My airline (US part 121) has ops specs for VFR operations, but that's more the exception than the rule. But, my point was that there are plenty of places where a commercial air transport flight may be operating under IFR in Class E airspace at the same time as VFR traffic, and no separation is provided by ATC, only separation between other IFR traffic. Under those circumstances, see and avoid is definitely in effect.
broadreach
7th Oct 2013, 19:35
They are not Chinese lanterns! Here's a pic for scale.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a237/broadreach/image-32.jpg (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/broadreach/media/image-32.jpg.html)
Just as bad if not worse are those black cigars, solar balloons, which are much more difficult to see and avoid.
RoyHudd
7th Oct 2013, 22:58
Pathetic. Those silly Brasilians will bring down another of their country's airliners at this rate.
Backoffice
8th Oct 2013, 00:24
Hate to say this but those balloons fly IFR as well as VFR.:8
Unmanned balloons are quite common in Brazil due to festivities traditions, specially in the months of June, July and August. Releasing those balloons is a crime as they interfere with ATC and also cause large fires, but there's not much law enforcement for this kind of problem, so people just keep doing that year after year.
And yes, depending on the type and size, those balloons can get as high as 10.000ft.