BALPA recognition pays off at Easy

[twinjet]

BALPA were officially recognised by easyJet recently despite a flurry of paperwork advising pilots not to vote "YES" in the recognition ballot.

A 1% pay offer for co pilots and 2% for captains was this week turned down by the pilots of the company. Incredibly, pilots were informed a rolling RPI of 1.3% was used when deciding how much of a pay increase to award. Also, rostering agreements unilaterally cancelled by the rostering manager have caused BALPA to notify the company that this is not acceptable.

Although easyJet is plastered all over the press and is set to become a major player, lifestyle negotiations for pilots(and cabin crew) are ongoing.Specifically pay and rostering.


It is rumoured another pay deal is on the table of 7% to put easy pilots back ,as the chief training captains oft quoted saying, as market leaders. GB airways recently awarded their pilots over 4%, GO have a higher salary, and easy are now amongst the lowest paid 737 pilots in the UK.

[Faulty]

which are bmi British Midland pilots!!!!:(

[BigRab]

but houses are cheap at EMA

[Digitalis]

Easy's may be amongst the lowest paid 737 pilots, but their starting pay is more than Virgin's B747 and A340 pilots!:mad:

[The Puzzler]

Puzzle me this....?

For a company about to announce handsome profits why present a pay deal that is not market leading, even though it was based on market forces, and worse still proposed to introduce a probationary pay scale for new recruits as well as newly promoted captains, regardless of their time with the company?

Innovative it was, so much so that there is now a "formal failure to agree."

[Amazon man]

Theres some comfort in the fact that despite all the hype when it comes to pay and conditions EasyJet management are much the same as most other airlines.

[twinjet]

puzzler

quite true. I have heard that the company saving from the 90% probationary pay is approx double the cost to the companyof the "offered" pay rise!!! ie the company is actually making money out of our pay rise. With the chief training captain also sending a letter saying we must attack costs, hence we will only pay the new boys 90% salary for 100% responsiblity,things are a little tense on the line. Could this be the start of a "B" scale? I do not know of any other staff being put on 90% pay and I strongly reject any proposal that cost base savings are earnt from pilot lifestyles. With the recent news that the company is to buy GO, the implications are that all of the GO pilots could be offered a reduced salary with a take it or leave it caveat to their new contract!!!

[boxmover]

I THINK that any sale of GO will involve the TUPE rules.

Under the rules the Go pilots will get:

There existing pay and allowances

They will keep any work/flight time/timetable rules that are included in there terms with GO

They will keep any union representation.


If Easy do buy GO they will need to run two "companies" within the group unless they can do a deal (pay) the GO pilots to come over to the Easy terms.

[Stagnation Point]

At the moment all the bmi 737 pilots are based a LHR, unless they are temporarily in EMA on the baby flights. I'm led t believe that the baby pay rates are based on Go's pay schedule.

NOt bad money if you can get it.

[twinjet]

Boxmover

The intention is to have one AOC so the GO boys will have to do it the easy way once their own AOC is cancelled. No more monitored approaches, no more interline with buzz and ryanair, easy rates of pay(paycut), and a lovely orange uniform for the cabin crew. Go crews can also look forward to some diabolical rostering practices. i mention this as I understand they have pretty good rosters at the mo.

[Flap 5]

easy have always prided themselves on paying their pilots well. That is clearly changing.

Reference the Go takeover. Previous experience is that their employees (Go's) will have to watch their backs when it comes to possible redundencies. I believe that the pilots should not have a problem with this because of easy's need for qualified 737 pilots with their expansion. But the ground / office staff will certainly have to watch out.

[Zulu]

twinjet - I thought you guys worked a fixed roster?

You're right about the rosters at Go - they are pretty good. The rostering guy keeps 99% of us happy 99% of the time, which is a pretty good trick! And crewing I find very helpful as well.

As mentioned on another thread, I hope it won't just be a case of painting everything Orange, and telling us to do everything your way, albeit this is a takeover not a merger.

If we take the best bits from both, we could really end up with a cracking airline that will be the largest low cost airline outside the States...I'm beginning to warm to the idea....throw in the Oktoberfest and beer in Munchen and the harpies will be seriously on the run!

[Floppy Link]

hmmm
got an easyOffer, no date yet
this 90% thing is news to me, any more details?
FL
:confused:

[MisterRootsman]

Zulu

Yes there is a fixed roster at easyJet. 2 sets of 7 on & 2 off and 2 sets of 6 on 3 off per month. When the fixed roster system first came out it was 6 on 3 off but this was changed later to the above patten. In order to implement the change the company by-passed the Pilot Council and Balpa. You are also guaranteed a late finish followed by an early start or vica versa either side of your days off. However, not a bad company to work for if you can ignore the hopeless rostering.

[boxmover]

twinjet

I agree with some of what you say, the operational stuff can go over to the easy system.

BUT

The employment stuff (pay hours etc.) is protected by the TUPE rules.Easy will have to find a way to run two system in one AOC or bring the easy pilots to the GO conditions.

As an aside it is simpler to bring easy terms down to Go levels in any deal as easy pilots will not have the protection of the TUPE rules. They would only be protected by there contract of employment.

[twinjet]

boxmover

Never heard of TUPE so cannot comment on protected rights etc but if the easy boys do have to match Gos salary, this would be welcome as you are paid more. However , car parking and food is free at easy so this may balance out. In any case, we are not known to be slick administrators( cant even crew 300/700 pilots efficiently) so expect a load of mayhem come the day of the union!!! Oh and did I mention the rostering was diabolical in my last post? In case I didnt, I just want you to know the rostering is diabolical, just to make that perfectly clear!!!:rolleyes:

[The Puzzler]

Puzzle me this....?

£1.0 million profit, yet it should be treble this. The inefficient rostering, which has already been well described on this thread, continues to cost the company millions in poor productivity and drives the morale of crew down. Whether there is a merger or not easyjet would do well to look at Go's rostering and take a leaf from their book. This is an area where the cost base could be really driven down, rather than hair brained schemes like taxiing on one engine!

By the way Floppy dont panic, the wonderful pay offer was overwhelmingly rejected.

[twinjet]

Now that the pay offer has been rejected, and in light of the fact that the company has been on a shopping spree to buy airlines, does anybody know what is happening in the next round of pay talks? As a workforce, can we ask the company for a rights issue to fund a huge pay award?? :) Maybe we could get more than the rumoured 7%!!!

[Sqdn Ldr Weather]

So Twinjet, after all your considerable moaning, whingeing, sniping and vituperative invective about your current employer........the rest of us out here now deserve the right to know the answer to the $64,000 question.........why do you stay with them?

And no, just more moaning and whingeing is NOT a good enough answer. Please look back at all the negative stuff you have posted and then ask yourself - "can I not get a job anywhere else?"

I suppose the answer has got to be no, because if you could get an alternative job, then you would be a fool to carry on what you are doing - after all they are just so BAD to you are they not?!

Go on, start yet another pointless thread about how lousy they are to work for, why don't you - unlike some other airlines they seem to be paying the mortgages of their employees rather consistently.

Look at some of the charter operators and their particularly dodgy temporary contracts, " yes of course you are employed all year, but we will only be paying you for 6 months old chap.... now the really clever bit is that for 6 months, you can do what you want.... because we don't NEED you to fly for us!"

Yeah..... to have a permanent employer must be SUCH a drag......tell us ALL about it.

[kick the tires]

Puzzler,

The 1.0 million profit was for the previous 6 WINTER months.

The last 6 SUMMER months produced a 40.0 million profit, something the Beeb failed to mention on their reports.

As for all the other moaning, over the years I have found ALL airlines are basically the same, its just the colour of your tie that changes.

Twinjet:

True, airlines vary greatly in their efficiency and some are better at somethings and notso at others. But at the end of the day its up to you to decide where you want to work. For me, stability and an enjoyable working atmosphere are important - for others the efficiency of the rostering team seem to be high on their personal list of priorities.

Pilots are perfectionists, that is the nature of our business, and it is sometimes frustrating to see mistakes and oversights re-occuring - but I'm sure its not done on purpose.

Chill out a bit and just enjoy your flying!

[The Puzzler]

Puzzle me this....?

Why, when anybody dares criticise their employer, is the reaction from those who oppose such criticisms a summary resignation? I should think that the majority are very much for improvement in areas quite obviously in need of the same.

Kick the tires, thanks but I was aware that it was a 6 monthly profit and as for the 12 monthly one it could be even better too - as you say, we are perfectionists and we do see areas where improvement could and should be made every day. Lets hope they are because the cost base is very much a priority and needs to be continually reviewed in order for us to keep our competeive edge.

[Stelios]

It's been a very informative thread so far, an insight into easyJet cracks!!!
Keep 'em coming lads.

[twinjet]

sqn ldr weather

I am entitled to my opinions,I am entitled to express my opinions, and guess what....so are you!!! And I will not criticize you for doing so...theres the difference.

[YAK PILOT]

Referring to earlier comments regarding rosters, Zulu is correct in saying that almost everyone at GO are impressed by the way the rostering department is run - how many crew could say that of their company? Although the notion of fixed rostering initially sounds appealing if it is not backed up by some flexibility with RDO's (requested days off) then the negatives outway the positives in my book.

Indeed, there are few areas of the GO operation that are poor.
Operations discus their decision making and are open to suggestions.
Security department is excellent. The detection of fraud is superb.
Communication good.
Basically the employees have respect for management (loads for Babs) and it appears that management respect and value the employees.

The result is that most are disapointed by the possibility of the takeover. The one hope we have is that the Easy management are bright enough to take on board the areas where GO may do things better than Easy.
the best bits of both
If the Easy pilots feel that their rostering is poor and BALPA have any say in Easy then maybe they should push for the adoption of our rostering when the time comes? The future's orange? Work together and it could be a happier orange!

[Orangewing]

Yak Pilot, we are given 4 RDO's per year. Don't spend them all at once! The reason our rostering is so appalling is because of a certain person in that department, who is completely and utterly incompetent, which is widely recognised. Thankfully easyland has a no blame culture, so his job is as safe as houses for a long time to come.
So for as long as he keeps his job, there will be no improvement in rostering. Period. (The fact that eJ is probably the only airline in the industry whereby rostering is NOT under flight ops control does not help either).
Regards, :D

[autobrake3]

We fly 800 - 850 hours a year in Go, yet our rosters are only changed once in the proverbial blue moon. RDO's are accommodated whenever possible. If we are (rarely) asked to do extra sectors or accept a serious change in roster it is always done politely and at our discretion, most will therefore oblige. The net result of treating crews with respect (man !) is a well motivated and efficient front line operation. Simply because there is a no blame culture (yuk) in Easy should not absolve those in authority from seeking to improve a poor situation. If those involved cannot then move them sideways! The best of both they say, I sure hope so.

[mjenkinsblackdog]

May be the GO chap should be tried out if merger occurs.
Then we can all vote who does the best job.
Seem fair.:cool:

[BTB]

When you aquire another company you are buying their assets, including hardware and personnel. You keep the good bits of theirs and yours, and chuck out the rubbish. easyJet crew food has improved vastly recently due personnel changes. I have a good feeling that rostering may do so too after the "merger"!

Happy days to come!

[springbok449]

As mentioned above, when 2 companies merge the good things from both are kept and the crap is thrown away, I hope this will be the case if and when this merger takes place, as I am fed up of people changing the goal posts all the time without any warning or worse even, not consulting the work force! What has happened to this so called fantastic 6 on 3 off? It is now 7 on 2 off! And well what about the fantastic pay review???
Well it can only get better, surely?!

[FlapsOne]

Springbok449

You have been misled by another post.

I, and everyone else, work 6 on 3 off.

The first or last day of the 3 off may follow or preceed a late finish or early start. Of the 6 on - 1 ,sometimes 2, days are often a home standby. I have been called from standby only 8 times this YEAR.

Please do not try and state that the working practice is 7 on 2 off because that is just not true.

My roster pattern is similar to many others I have spoken to.

I freely admit that occaisionally things change and you might have to work the 7th day. This is not the 'norm' and, at least for the last 2 years, has not been the case.

[Stan Woolley]

FlapsOne

I think the 'Bokkie' may well work for Easy.

While I too have generally enjoyed a proper six on three off as you have, some have not. I personally have seen one roster where there was no three days off block for the whole month!

Finishing at 0300 does NOT constitute a day off by the legal definition, and starting at 0500 or 0300 or whatever takes the company's fancy does not make the previous day a legal day off either.

As the new roster system has been in place only since April this year I have no idea where you come from with this... 'at least for the last two years' business.

Credit where it's due I agree but lets keep it honest.

[Airbrake]

The 6 on 3 off simply is not happening for a significant number of pilots at the present. In the first six weeks of the new system I have had 4 weeks of 7 on 2 off. That included a finish at gone 0300L and a start 2 days later at 0600L. They are the simple facts. If you are getting 6 on 3 off enjoy them, many are not, although this does seem to driven by the shortage of FO's at the present.

[Slickster]

4 RDOs a year!! Sorry guys, but that is a really toilet system you've got!:p

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Err.... I know I've woken up rather late in the day.... but "Easy Pilots' are amongst the lowest paid 737 pilots??????" Come on guys you must all have your head up someone's @rse!!! Is it particularly brown and smelly up there perchance?

[FlapsOne]

Flanker

My post was indeed honest.

I am well aware that the new system has only been in place a short time.

I was referring to the fact that 7 on 2 off wasn't the 'norm' before either.

I have only worked 7 consecutive days about 3 or 4 times in the last 2 years. I've done plenty of 6s. That is fact not fiction and it isn't by any means unique.

I can't give accurate comparisons as I don't have the data but, of the many people I have flown with, only a handful have mentioned having to work 7/2 and, even then, not regularly. Rosters, by the way, are a frequent topic of discussion of course.

Of course I know it happens - and when it does it is a right pain in the ar$e - but let's not give the false impression that this is the normal state of affairs.

Anyway, if the system at GO is as good as I have heard and we really do want the best of both comanies, surely that's the way ahead.

[Stan Woolley]

FlapsOne, you said:

'I, and everyone else, work 6 on 3 off.'

If you think that is completely honest see Airbrakes' post above just for starters, it is not so.

If one of the three days is a 'Flexi day' its not a day off!

I never suggested 7 on 2 off was the normal state of affairs, but it's not unusual either, I had one this month, proving your quote to be incorrect.

[Capitano]

Nice to hear that GO pilots/and other staff respect their managers, especially BC. And that they seem to be in general reasonably happy about the state of affairs. It will be interesting to hear from them after the merger what they think about easyJet. Obviously we at easyJet can only hope that the merger will bring us the good things which GO staff enjoy at the moment; good rostering, sensible policy on RDO's, better salary, staff (interline) travel etc. This may happen only if the easyJet management will be removed and the ones from GO start to run business. After all, the financial papers have always praised GO management as the most competent in the industry, and hopefully the best managers will be put in charge.

(by the way, how would you guys at GO feel if you did NOT have the normal (airline) interline travel package? Which practically everyone in any airline do have. Soon you may not have it!)

[twinjet]

The thread has become abit diluted! It started off about BALPA and on that theme, I have noticed a new set of minutes to our pay discussions. JP has now given his final offer, what happens next ? Anybody know.

[springbok449]

Sorry to take so long before I could reply to this but I have just finished a 7 on 2 off pattern, only kidding.
Flaps one, I know that it is not the norm to work 7 on 2 off but it does happen and that is what's wrong, we kind of all accepted that on the 6th day we could have to finish at 0300 local but then with no warning and no notices to crew or indeed consultation someone found fit to just change that to 0400 local, enough said...
Safe flying regards,
Bokkie449

[doggonetired]

Not for the follicly challenged......
TUPE.....
http://www.comlegal.com/Employment/employment_guide_2001.htm#G

[rubik101]

It seems from reading the info in the site mentioned above that the GO people have a fairly watertight case, will keep their salaries, rosters interline etc. for just as long as they want them! Good for them. How will this sit with the easyjet personell I wonder?
If GO are 99% happy with their crewing/rostering then it seems that that department should be taken on lock stock and barrel, at least not taken away from GO.
If GO managed to make £14 million with their fewer a/c and happy rosters, then easyjets' £1 million with unhappy crews and more a/c over the same period tells a tale!
'Babs' or Barbara as she is known in GO is definitely not from the same mould as easyboss. Enough said.
Barbara managed to make all the GO employees shareholders when the sale from BA was agreed, so they all benefit from this sale.
So some good comes out of all this, let's hope the good bits are retained and the bad bits discarded, as suggested. If only we could be sure that this would really be the case eh?

[BALOO]

Just thought I'd clear up a few misunderstandings:
The GO figure of £14m profit is , as I understand it, the full year figures. The easyJet figure of £1m is for the 6 month winter period and is after/includes the £7m given to NATS along with 6 other carriers. At this time last year the figure was £10m LOSS! Despite this loss, the years profit was still £40m. Basically, the figures being banded around for easy aren't quite as bad as some may think!
Secondly, those who were with easy when it was floated were awarded a reasonable deal with share options (Capts worth just over 100K before tax at todays price :cool:. Unfortunately those who joined after have lost out :mad: big time)! I personally won't moan if those in GO get a good deal - more power to their elbow. It's up to all of us to make sure that we all get the best of both worlds. If we can (and I admit, it's not going to be that simple) then the future's not only Orange, but it could be blxxdy good too!
Lets all work together and have some fun! :)

[crossfeedclosed]

Interesting, all this carping about the merger/takeover. It IS a takeover and the GO boys had better get used to being shafted. Babs is gone (pity) and her excellent staff relations will be a thing of the past so better get used to it. However, there is a better roster pattern available in Ryanair - 5 on 2 off in DUB and 5 on 3 off in STN and the money's better. That makes a lot of extra days off in my book.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

crossfeedclosed - you can keep your Vaseline friend. It seems to a man that the personnel in both airlines are determined to take the best from each company to make an even beter entity.

This is not Dan AirII.

WWW

editCross - do you work for Go? I think you do. Not optomistic?