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nick14
29th Jul 2013, 23:31
Dear all,

As a CRI could I do say a night checkout/night recency for a PPL holder who already holds a night rating? I'm looking at 1178 and there is nothing that specifically precludes it however the FI is the only certificate the specifically includes the privilege to instruct at night.

mad_jock
30th Jul 2013, 07:11
FI only required for intial training for rating.

If your legal to fly at night your good to go.

And unless its changed with EASA the 90 day rule doesn't apply to you as your boh counted as crew.

nick14
31st Jul 2013, 06:44
That's what I was thinking thanks!

Oxflyer
31st Jul 2013, 08:02
As a CRI you are unable to do this. The CRI instructional privileges do not include night and you would therefore be a passenger. Unless the person you are flying with is current at night the flight would not be legal.

nick14
31st Jul 2013, 08:59
This might be a can of worms, everyone seems to have a differing opinion on this.

MrAverage
31st Jul 2013, 09:16
I agree with Oxflyer. Unless you (or an FI for that matter) have completed the training to remove the No Night Instruction Restriction (which I don't think you can anyway as a CRI) the flight would be illegal. Perversely even an instructor correctly carrying out such a flight could not have any passengers in the back.....

Whopity
31st Jul 2013, 13:22
FCL.905.CRI CRI Privileges and conditions
(a) The privileges of a CRI are to instruct for:
(1) the issue, revalidation or renewal of a class or type rating for non-complex non-high performance single-pilot aeroplanes, when the privileges sought by the applicant are to fly in single-pilot operations;
(2) a towing or aerobatic rating for the aeroplane category, provided the CRI holds the relevant rating and has demonstrated the ability to instruct for that rating to an FI qualified in accordance with FCL.905.FI(i).There is no restriction on teaching for the revalidation or renewal of a class or type rating by night. If the privileges of the holder and the CR include night then it is perfectly legal.

To teach for the issue of a Night Rating is not within the above privileges.
No Night Instruction Restriction (which I don't think you can anyway as a CRI) the flight would be illegal. Perversely even an instructor correctly carrying out such a flight could not have any passengers in the back.....The No night Restriction no longer exists under EASA.
Provided the instructor is night current, and is of course PIC, then a passenger may be carried regardless of who is doing the landing.

MrAverage
31st Jul 2013, 14:33
I stand corrected (as usual) on the CRI night bit but surely:

GM1 FCL.060(b)(1) Recent experience AEROPLANES, HELICOPTERS, POWERED-LIFT, AIRSHIPS AND SAILPLANES If a pilot or a PIC is operating under the supervision of an instructor to comply with therequired three take-offs, approaches and landings, no passengers may be onboard.

still prevents passengers on the one of three at night?

nick14
31st Jul 2013, 14:46
I suppose that for a club checkout, confidence or night currency as the student is rated at night then you are not providing instruction for a night rating.

Any more opinions?

Whopity
31st Jul 2013, 14:53
Mr Average

Thanks for that reference, another change from JAR that had escaped me!

Level Attitude
31st Jul 2013, 23:01
AMC1 FCL.060(b)(1) Recent experience
When a pilot needs to carry out one or more flights with an instructor or an
examiner to comply with the requirement of FCL.060(b)(1) before the pilot
can carry passengers, the instructor or examiner on board those flights will not
be considered as a passenger.


GM1 FCL.060(b)(1) Recent experience
AEROPLANES, HELICOPTERS, POWERED-LIFT, AIRSHIPS AND SAILPLANES If a pilot
or a PIC is operating under the supervision of an instructor to comply with the required
three take-offs, approaches and landings, no passengers may be on board.

The above statements seem very strange to me - their only point being
that it seems to allow a choice between "Checkee PUT & Instructor PIC"
or "Checkee PIC & Instructor as Safety Pilot (nothing loggable)"

And unless its changed with EASA the 90 day rule doesn't apply to you as your boh
counted as crew
It has:
FCL 905 (Instructor Privileges)
e) the night rating, provided that the FI:
(3) complies with the night experience requirement of FCL.060(b)(2);
I know we are not talking here about training for the Night Rating, but
see my points below.

The No night Restriction no longer exists under EASA
Technically correct but an FI still needs to apply to CAA for the privilege
to instruct for the Night Rating and to do this they will have to pass
a "test" FCL 905: "has demonstrated the ability to instruct at night to an
FI qualified in accordance with (i) below"

Under EASA anyone can give any instruction they like to anybody.they
want to. PROVIDED it is not for License/Rating issue, renewal or revalidation - in this case there
would only be one pilot (the PIC) on board, everyone else being a passenger. Also I cannot
think of a scenario where any payment could legally be made.

EASA specifies what a pilot can do (not what they cannot).
Therefore an Instructor can only act as such if within the privileges of their Rating (irrespective of
whether "the lesson" is actually for License/Rating action or not)
If outside their privileges then they are not an Instructor and can only be
either PIC or Pax

None of the privileges of a CRI require flight at night and as instructing for the
Night Rating is not listed I would suggest no instruction at night is allowed.

Therefore no, a CRI may not be on board whilst someone regains their night currency
for carrying passengers.

Whopity
1st Aug 2013, 06:54
None of the privileges of a CRI require flight at night and as instructing for the
Night Rating is not listed I would suggest no instruction at night is allowed.
None of the privileges specify either day or night! As the Night rating is not listed, then they cannot teach for it but, there is nothing to prohibit class rating training at night.

BEagle
1st Aug 2013, 07:19
My understanding is the same as yours, Level Attitude.

CRI privileges do not include night instruction. Hence if a CRI gives Class Rating instruction at night, both pilots must hold valid Night Ratings, including night landing recency.

Level Attitude
1st Aug 2013, 14:35
My understanding is the same as yours, Level Attitude
Don't think it is.

The CAA have always been clear that for a flight to be an "Instructional Flight"
(ie One person logging PIC and teaching a second person who logs PUT) then
the Instructor must have instructional privileges for all aspects of the flight.

Hence their IN several years ago reminding FIs that they were not permitted
to "demonstrate" any aerobatic manoevre during a lesson/trial lesson unless
they also held aerobatic instructional privileges.

CRIs cannot exercise their privileges at night as they will not have
"demonstrated the ability to instruct at night to an FI qualified in accordance
with (i) below"
and EASA have not put in place a process whereby they can.

Instructing at night will not have been taught to a CRI and their competence
to so do never tested.
So why does anyone believe they have this privilege?

nick14
1st Aug 2013, 16:36
I suppose it comes down to the FCL.gen

An instructor must hold a certificate appropriate to the instruction being given.

For which a CRI cannot get.

Whopity
1st Aug 2013, 18:30
The CAA have always been clear that for a flight to be an "Instructional Flight"
(ie One person logging PIC and teaching a second person who logs PUT) then
the Instructor must have instructional privileges for all aspects of the flight.That was true under National rules especially with regard to teaching for the IR at night but, its no longer the CAA's call. It's down to what is written in Part FCL.

I don't think there is any debate regarding a CRI not being able to train for a Night Rating however; there is nothing to prohibit Class rating training including refresher training being conducted at any time of the day so long as both pilots are appropriately rated e.g night rating at Night. If you go back to the old UK LPC/LST forms it actually included a column for night circuits (if required).

Level Attitude
1st Aug 2013, 19:23
Whopity we are going to disagree:
It's down to what is written in Part FCL
FCL.900 (a) General (1) (ii) "An instructor must hold a certificate
appropriate to the instruction being given"

I do not believe a CRI is an "appropriate certificate" to carry out (any)
instruction at night, whereas you, obviously, do.

its no longer the CAA's call
Unless, and until, the wording of FCL.905.CRI CRI Privileges and conditions
is ammended to specifically include/exclude night instruction, or there is
a court case to decide the issue, then it is the CAA, as the UK
Competent Authority, who would decide whether an EASA CRI is an
"appropriate certificate" to instruct at night.

BEagle,
Perhaps you could ask them?

Whopity
1st Aug 2013, 21:17
FCL.900 (a) General (1) (ii) "An instructor must hold a certificate
appropriate to the instruction being given" And a CRI may give instruction for type or class rating issue renewal and revalidation. Please tell me where it specifies at what time of day this most be done.

The CAA can not be any more stringent than the basic regulation. If the conditions are not specified it is not up to to the CAA to make them up.

BEagle
2nd Aug 2013, 06:29
I consider that Class Rating training may be conducted at any time of day or night, just as instrument flying training may be conducted at any time of day or night.

However, instruction for the Night Rating, including dual instruction for the purpose of regaining night recency, may only be conducted by an instructor who has demonstrated the ability to instruct at night.

FCL.905.FI(e) concerns instructional requirements for the Night Rating; similar privileges do not apply to a CRI.

Of course there is no requirement for a pilot to take any night refresher training if his/her licence and ratings are valid - surviving one solo take-off and landing technically suffices....:hmm:

Whopity
2nd Aug 2013, 06:51
Beagle,

Whilst I agree with your sentiment, a CRI may train a qualified pilot, no ab-initio. The night rating is ab-initio training but, refresher training is conducted with a qualified pilot, so there is nothing in Law to prohibit a CRI conducting that training. Whether it is desirable or not is another matter. Perhaps someone would like to ask Mathias Borgmeier at EASA for his view.

Level Attitude
2nd Aug 2013, 13:17
This might be a can of worms, everyone seems to have a differing opinion on this.
nick14 you are correct, you now have three opinions:
- You can because it is not specifically prohibited (Whopity)
- You can if certain requirements are met (BEagle)
- You cannot because it is not specifically allowed (Me)

I think EASA did not specifically prohibit Class Rating instruction at night
by a CRI because they never envisaged anyone would think they were
allowed to.

A CRI is only allowed to teach to the Class rating syllabus:
Part-FCL Appendix 9 Training, skill test and proficiency check for MPL,
ATPL, type and class ratings, and proficiency check for IRs
A General
CONTENT OF THE TRAINING, SKILL TEST/PROFICIENCY CHECK
4. Unless otherwise determined in the operational suitability data established in
accordance with Part-21, the syllabus of flight instruction shall comply with this Appendix.

Therefore, if you believe a CRI is entitled to instruct at night, you must also
believe that all mandatory Class Rating test items can be taught/tested
at night, including:
SINGLE-PILOTAEROPLANES, EXCEPT FOR HIGH PERFORMANCE COMPLEX AEROPLANES
2.2 Steep Turns
2.3 Stalling
5.2 Simulated EFATO (single engine only)
5.3 Simulated Forced Landing

Before anyone else points it out there is also:
"4.7 Night go-around and landing (if applicable)"
But this is not a mandatory test item and I cannot
think of a Class rating to which it is applicable.
(Certainly not SEP or MEP)

BillieBob
2nd Aug 2013, 16:17
Therefore, if you believe a CRI is entitled to instruct at night, you must also believe that all mandatory Class Rating test items can be taught/tested at nightThat is arrant nonsense! Just because some elements of the class rating syllabus should sometimes not be taught at night does not mean that none of it can. The CRI is permitted, among other things, to instruct for a class rating and the Regulation does not place any restriction on when this may be done.

Your contention, as I understand it, is that because the Regulation does not specifically state that a CRI may instruct at night then he may not. Would you, for the same reason then, say that an IRI may not instruct for the instrument rating at night or that a TRI may not carry out any part of the type rating syllabus at night (e.g. ILS approach)?

In any case, there is nothing to prevent steep turns or stalling being taught on those nights when there is a clear horizon or to prevent a PFL to, for example, a lit runway.

nick14
2nd Aug 2013, 17:45
I wasn't sure either way hence the question. I would never conduct training that I am unsure of the legalities of until I had evidence to support that.

Level Attitude
4th Aug 2013, 15:31
some elements of the class rating syllabus should sometimes not be taught
at night does not mean that none of it can
Do any ATOs have approved syllabi for SEP or MEP which includes training
at night?

I believe the privileges of an instructor cannot just allow instruction towards
Licence/Rating issue, renewal or revalidation - they must permit instruction of
any elements of a Licence/Rating syllabus to anybody at any time.

If that were not the case then a "whole can of worms" would open up:
eg: An aerobatic instructor could not give aerobatic instruction to someone
who already holds an aerobatic Rating and club check outs would not be
allowed on SEP holders during the first year of their Rating validity.

However Instruction can only be given if the privileges held are not trumped
by another requirement.
FCL.810Night rating
(a)Aeroplanes, TMGs, airships.
(1)If the privileges of an LAPL or a PPL for aeroplanes, TMGs or airships are to be
exercised in VFR conditions at night, applicants shall have completed a training
course at an ATO. The course shall comprise:

(i)theoretical knowledge instruction;

(ii)at least 5 hours of flight time in the appropriate aircraft category at night, including
at least 3 hours of dual instruction, including at least 1 hour of cross-country with...
VFR dual instruction at night is part of the Night Rating syllabus (and not
part of any other, that I can see). Therefore VFR at night instruction to
LAPL or PPL holders requires the privilege to instruct for the night Rating.

To answer your specific questions:
An IRI may instruct IFR at night, not VFR
A TRI may instruct at night if the approved Type Rating
course states it.

The legislation does appears to state that only CPL FIs can instruct CPL
holders VFR at night!!!

because the Regulation does not specifically state that a CRI may
instruct at night then he may not
Yes but also because:
CPL privileges do not state they can be exercised at night - but to
gain a CPL night training is required.

CRI do not state the privileges can be exercised at night.
But to gain a CRI no night instruction training/competence testing
required.

And all Instructor privileges in EASA seem to require a demonstration
of competence.

Whopity
4th Aug 2013, 21:28
CRI do not state the privileges can be exercised at night.
But to gain a CRI no night instruction training/competence testing
required.
Lets be honest in 3 hours you really can't teach a CRI to do anything. A CRI is TRI for SPA and is presumed to be an experienced pilot on type before commencing the course. He can then pretty much train for anything he is qualified to do. Only one hour of night is given to a FI to teach ab-initio at night so what is the issue of a night qualified CRI teaching a night qualified pilot. Its utter Bollux!

squawking 7700
5th Aug 2013, 07:50
What, exactly, does that 1hr entail to lift an FI's night restriction? and yes, that's to teach ab-initio and existing PPL holders at night.
For someone with a PPL wishing to do a night rating I'm sure there's CRI's who (perhaps with the 1hr 'course') would be willing and perfectly able.

I'm a CRI and come this winter I'll be asked again by a few people if I can do the night rating course for them.


7700

Whopity
5th Aug 2013, 11:48
The one hour involves demonstrating to an FIC instructor the ability to teach at night. Pre JAA it was somewhat more comprehensive but now its just a tick in the box. That said, as it is a rating that is not included in the CRI privileges you do not have the option to teach those who do not already hold the rating.

If it were not for the UK there would not even be an hour required. As the Night Rating involves sending a student first solo at night, a FI rating is required for ab-initio training.

Cobalt
5th Aug 2013, 19:18
While the wording says "has demonstrated the ability to instruct at night", I would hope it would be a bit more.

In my case [I did it as part of my FI course, not separately] it was

An overview of the night rating syllabus that I would have to teach
The board briefs for the night exercises
The patter for the night circuits both received and returned.
The FI instructor also played ham-fisted student botching a couple of flares. No idea how long it took exactly, an hour to hour and a half sounds sensible if all goes well, with maybe 3-4 hours ground time.

dobbin1
6th Aug 2013, 06:28
CPL privileges do not state they can be exercised at night - but to gain a CPL night training is required.

Not always. I have a CPL, but I have never had a night qualification or rating due medical restrictions.

Whopity
6th Aug 2013, 07:23
I would hope it would be a bit more.Fortunately, prayer is not an EASA regulation!

BillieBob
6th Aug 2013, 12:37
Do any ATOs have approved syllabi for SEP or MEP which includes training at night?Any ATO may elect to conduct a part of its approved course at night - the ATO approval certificate does not include any restriction on when training may take place.I believe the privileges of an instructor cannot just allow instruction towards Licence/Rating issue, renewal or revalidation - they must permit instruction of any elements of a Licence/Rating syllabus to anybody at any time.I have no idea what this means or what point it is attempting to make.An IRI may instruct IFR at night, not VFRBut the privileges at FCL.905.IRI do not specifically include instruction at night - the very reason that you say a CRI may not instruct at night. Are you saying that an IRI may, for example, teach a non-precision approach at night up until the point that the aircraft reaches MDA and/or IFR is cancelled but may not then teach the subsequent circle to land under VFR?A TRI may instruct at night if the approved Type Rating course states it.Once again, the privileges at FCL.905.TRI do not specifically include instruction at night. What is more, instructor privileges depend only upon the instructor certificate and not the course on which the instructor is employed at the time. A TRI certificate either includes the privilege to instruct at night or it does not.

Level Attitude
6th Aug 2013, 23:50
CPL privileges do not state they can be exercised at night - but to gain a CPL night training is required.Not always. I have a CPL, but I have never had a night qualification or rating due medical restrictions.

Not now possible, I believe, under EASA:
FCL.315 CPL Training course
An applicant for a CPL shall have completed theoretical knowledge instruction and flight instruction at an ATO, in accordance
with Appendix 3 to this Part.
Appendix 3 requires 5 hours of night instruction, including 5 solo Take Offs
and Landings - If a medical does not allow PIC at night then the training
requirements for CPL issue cannot be met.

Level Attitude
7th Aug 2013, 00:40
I believe the privileges of an instructor cannot just allow instruction towards Licence/Rating issue,
renewal or revalidation - they must permit instruction of any elements of a Licence/Rating syllabus
to anybody at any time. I have no idea what this means or what point it is attempting to make.
My apologies, let me try another example:

A twin needs a twenty minute positioning flight. The pilot happens to be
an MEP CRI and they take along another club member (PPL SEP Holder) for
company.

The PPL holder cannot believe their luck when they are put in the LHS and
the pilot lets them do most of the flying whilst going in to "instructor" mode.

The flight was definiteley not for Rating Renewal or Revalidation as no
Rating is held. It is also not for Rating issue as it wasn't flown under
the auspices of an MEP ATO.

Can the CRI tell the other pilot to record the flight as 20min MEP PUT?

I think YES, because the CRI was Instructing according to the MEP syllabus.

The point I was making is that it is irrelevant whether the "student" has
a valid Night Rating or not as any VFR Instruction at night would be
according to the Night Rating syllabus and, therefore, any Instructor would
need the privilege to Instruct for the Night Rating.

But the privileges at FCL.905.IRI do not specifically include instruction at night
They do not specifically exclude it therefore any instruction at night would be allowed
unless there is an additional requirement from another privilege's syllabus.
In this case LAPL/PPL VFR instruction at night is a privilege listed in the
Night Rating requirement.

Are you saying that an IRI may, for example, teach a non-precision approach at night up
until the point that the aircraft reaches MDA and/or IFR is cancelled but may not then
teach the subsequent circle to land under VFR?
To an LAPL/PPL holder Yes. (NB: CPL syllabus only requires visual landing, not VFR)
Don't cancel IFR.
There is no difference, that I can see, to flying a visual circle to land IFR as there is VFR.

Once again, the privileges at FCL.905.TRI do not specifically include instruction at night
As per my answer above re IRI

Whopity
7th Aug 2013, 12:48
Can the CRI tell the other pilot to record the flight as 20min MEP PUT?No, you have already answered your own question:it wasn't flown under the auspices of an MEP ATO.All traiing for a licence or rating must be conducted at an ATO. Now back in the good old days if you were an ME instructor the student could count it but not since 1 Jan 2000.

BillieBob
7th Aug 2013, 16:47
LA - Your arguments are becoming more and more convoluted as you insist on reading requirements and restrictions into the regulation that simply are not there. Your contention is that a CRI cannot instruct at night because the privileges of a CRI certificate do not specifically say that he can. It is true that a CRI cannot instruct for the night rating but he can give any instruction within the privileges granted by FCL.905.CRI either by day or by night (provided he holds a night rating or night qualification). For example, he could quite safely conduct differences training for VP props or SLPC at night, or some parts of the MEP class rating.

In the case of the class rating, there might be a restriction imposed by the ATO under whose approval he was operating but this is a matter for the ATO as the approval itself does not restrict instruction to daylight only. Differences training, however, does not need to be done within an ATO, nor does it need to be approved and so, in this case, it is entirely at the CRI's discretion when he conducts the training.

Similarly an IRI is not constrained to teaching only under IFR by night - for example, there is nothing to prevent him from conducting the whole of the BIFM at night under VFR (apart, perhaps, from the instrument appreciation aspects) . The same applies to a TRI, who may choose to teach any part of the type rating syllabus at night, with the approval of the ATO under whose approval he is operating.

Level Attitude
7th Aug 2013, 17:04
All traiing for a licence or rating must be conducted at an ATO
Absolutely, and in the scenario I gave the "PUT" would not be able
to use this flight towards Rating Issue.

All Instructor privileges are written in Part-FCL as privileges to conduct
the required training towards a Licensing Administrative Action.

It does not say you can only conduct training which would, or could,
lead to a Licensing Action.

If this was the case who could give aerobatic instruction to someone
who already holds an Aerobatic rating?

An aerobatic instructor would seem to be the appropriate Instructor
Certificate - but this only gives the privilege to Instruct for the Rating
(not aerobatics in general).

nick14
7th Aug 2013, 18:03
So if someone holds a rating they cannot be PUT for the same rating??

If what I understand by that statement then club checkout could not occur not could an instructor be asked by a rates pilot to go up with him for a confidence boost? Say an aerobatic rated pilot hasn't done any aeros for a while an wants to be supervised by an instructor?

Level Attitude
7th Aug 2013, 18:33
So if someone holds a rating they cannot be PUT for the same rating??
nick14
I specifically chose the Aerobatic Rating as an example to ask the question
because, once issued, it never needs to be Revalidated or Renewed.

Most Ratings (eg SEP) do need to be Revalidated/Renewed so any training
could be towards that.

LA - Your arguments are becoming more and more convoluted
BB you are correct, I was simply looking to answer any points raised only
by what was written in primary legislation.

It is obvious that there is nothing in there that would currently convince
either of us of the other's point of view - therefore, having had a good,
long discussion on the subject, it is probably time to move on.

Cobalt
7th Aug 2013, 20:38
If you follow the letter of the regulations as they are written, there are so many things that nobody can instruct for, because it is mentioned nowhere in the instructor privileges.

For example, there is no paragraph saying that an FI or CRI can do familiarisation or differences training...

So you can either argue that nobody can give that training, file reports whenever you see somebody doing that sort of illegal instruction, and refuse to accept any differences sign-offs issued since EASA part FCL came into force, or you apply some common sense and carry on as normal.

BillieBob
8th Aug 2013, 08:15
Familiarisation and differences training extends the privileges of a class rating (or type rating) and can therefore be taken as being within the privileges of both an FI, and a CRI (or a TRI). More significant is the fact that no instructor certificate includes the privilege to instruct for the MCCI certificate, so where will all the MCCIs come from? (Don't panic, the UK has already filed a derogation).

Cobalt
8th Aug 2013, 09:15
Whopity, of course you are right. The problem is, that LevelAttitudes claim

You cannot because it is not specifically allowed

is, unfortunately, both technically right and simultaneously nonsensical.

The issue is that the "anything is permitted that is not prohibited" type of regulation wording of the JAR FCL, which said that

A person shall not carry out the flight instruction required for the issue of any pilot licence or rating unless that person has...

was replaced with

A person shall only carry out ... flight instruction in aircraft when he/she holds....

and whoever then wrote the rest forgot to include a lot of types of instruction... which is, beyond philosophical issues, the biggest problem with this approach to regulation.

Meanwhile, in the real world, the following applies:

Anyone can teach anyone anything, as long as they don't do anything stupid. For it to be allowable for anything formal, you need the appropriate rating. If that does not exist, shrug your shoulders and use the most appropriate one.

Genghis the Engineer
9th Aug 2013, 22:22
A passing note. I'm a CRI. By virtue of qualification, experience and recency, I can teach tailwheel, VP, retracts, and microlights - all as differences training. I flew none of these during my CRI course and skill test. The same is probably true of most FIs who can also teach these things.

Just gently shooting down one of the underlying arguments being used.


One another note, I think that we should be careful not to confuse "night instruction" and "instruction at night". They aren't the same thing.

G