Fly Bpl - Is It The Beginning Of The End???

[AirForceNone]

Just heard on Blackpool airport that Flybpl has had their fuel account suspended??

Sounds like the Flight Academy Blackpool/Aircraft Grouping saga all over again !!

Can anybody confirm this??

AFN :rolleyes:

[Jeffs26]

I know this is a rumour network but its a bit harsh posting that on here.
Coincidence that hanger 8 is re opening:eek:

[AirForceNone]

Jeffs26

Correct, it is a rumour network & this is a rumour. Not sure what the problem is ??

Funny how you are a new member. Your not RM in one of your many disguises re you????:=

As for hangar 8, I lost money with flight academy so I really don't give a ****e about it

AFN

[boy entrant]

its no rumor that the airport have stopped allowing him to refuel but he does have funds coming in soon He has no Hull insurance on any of his a/c and after an accident he then sues the survivors or in two cases the deceased estate for £35000 with the last two accidents (Swiss & Caernarfon) going thro' the courts as I write he thinks he is due £70000 any day now and that should clear the fuel bill

[robin]

......he then sues the survivors or in two cases the diseased estate for £35000

Hmm - foot and mouth or plague?

[Sir George Cayley]

Or not paying attention to spell chicken :ok:

Anyway, I'd sooner hear a rumour with spelling mistakes than wait for proofread copy.

Especially as the poster has revealed quite shocking behaviour; the AAIB haven't finished with the Caernafon report yet.

SGC

[boy entrant]

he sent the demand for £35000 5 days after the accident whilst the Pilot was still in intensive care.as for waiting for the A.A.I.B report he commented on national TV the next day that his a/c was not to blame and pilot error was.
If you want to Defend the man lend him the £25000 for the fuel.

[John R81]

Why would anyone hire an uninsured aircraft?

Was it made abundantly clear to those hiring that they were taking the aircraft with only third-party cover and that they should arrange their own insurance cover? If so, then the "uninsured" problem is the pilot's problem (or his estate). if not, then I suspect that the court cases to collect on those claims will be a long and (to outsiders) interesting process.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

It is not made clear to pilots hiring aircraft that they are not insured.

I suspect fewer pilots would have flown with FlyBpl had they known that in the past?!

RM has made unreasonable demands on pilots where the airworthiness and safety of his aircraft is concerned - this is totally unacceptable behaviour from a flight instructor and CAA authorised flight examiner.

Whilst FlyBpl provide a relatively cheap means of aviating for many, this behaviour seems to be at a relatively extortionate price for some?

:=

[Buttino]

Taken from the Flying Order Book on the website - http://www.flybpl.com/photos/downloads/pilots-order-book.pdf

7. Flybpl.com recommend private Insurance for the Pilot to be taken out by the Pilot / Commander, as flybpl.com Insurance does not cover and cannot be held responsible for any losses or damage caused by the PILOT.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Buttino

Whilst that is the wording of Clause 7 of the Flying Order Book, it does not make it clear that there is no insurance in place in respect of loss of the hull of the aircraft.

It suggests, but does not state, that the insurance relates to third party and public liability insurance - and not that relating to the aircraft themselves.

Most reputable flying schools and clubs insure their aircraft fully with third party and public liablity insurance being available to school/club members (hence the temporary membership form or 'blood chit' which is required for all those non-members flying as passengers in school/club aircraft).

FlyBpl's Clause 7 is, to my knowledge, not the usual situation with respect to aircraft/pilot/passenger insurance provisions within the auspices of a flying school or club.

It would be interesting to learn how, for example, a passenger taking a flight in a FlyBpl aircraft could obtain that insurance at short notice prior to a flight on a Sunday? Maybe there is a sister company 'FlyBpl Insurance Services' which provide such insurance cover - I can't see the advert on the website though?

[MOREOIL]

EU minimum insurance includes cover (£250K) for each passenger ,I recall that twenty years ago when I was training there were discussions about whether the club insurance covered the pilot against damage HE did to club aircraft, so this issue is not new. I suppose those looking for the cheapest way to fly should possibly consider other issues alongside cost.
MOREOIL

[Jodelman]

EU minimum insurance includes cover (£250K) for each passenger

The EU minimum cover for passenger liability is 100,000 SDR's. About £100,000 the last time I checked - a derisory amount.

[AirForceNone]

Speaking of insurance, sounds like another problem that needs addressing!! Very soon. Awkard!! :bored:

[asitwas]

Hope he don't appear in the Isle of Man !

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Most likely.

He has a company which is listed at Companies House, was formed in 2010 and whose accounts were made up to December 2012.

It is based in Hanger 2 at Blackpool Airport.

The company is Manx Airlines Limited, Company Number 07478345.

I hope you'll make this new venture welcome on the Island and open your wallets to it.

[AirForceNone]

The rumour drums are working overtime at Blackpool :oh:

Funny you mention that asitwas. It appears he has been to the Isle of Man today.

Can anybody on EGNS confirm ??

[asitwas]

People on the IOM have very long memories !

[robbo]

Very long memories backed up by an excellent word by mouth communication system. Yes, we’ll certainly spread the 'news' …. we can well do without RM’s type of outfit!

[AirForceNone]

Just had a interesting chat with an old friend who now is a member of Flybpl's no equity group at Blackpool.

They have just logged into the booking system to see the below message :ok:

Commercial Dispute with Blackpool Airport


Until further notice members are advised not to book flights on line that operate from Blackpool Airport, Group Locations are operating as normal, please call if you wish an update on 01253 341238.
We hope to have this resolved within the next day or two.
Thankyou for your patience.

Interesting, what are they disputing...........whether to pay the fuel bill or not ???:mad:

AFN

[Jeffs26]

All flights today and tomorrow at Flybpl departing Blackpool have been cancelled. There's a notice on the booking system not to book anymore slots at egnh until further notice :(
I personally enjoy his flying club. He's always been sound with me. Hope he manages to get it sorted soon

[boy entrant]

out of interest Jeffs 26 has he ever mentioned that if you crash his plane you pay him £35000 ?

[Jeffs26]

It's cheap. £70/ month, £70 an hour inc fuel. The 3rd party insurance isn't ideal but you get what you pay for, apart from at the moment of course :rolleyes: Wouldn't mind paying a few extra quid to get that insurance cover in place tbh

Think that Flybpl would have massive problems if they were or started to scrimp on the maintenance of their aircraft though. Safety should be no 1

Anyway I take it boy entrant you'll be fully insuring your aircraft? :ok:

[boy entrant]

like every flying school (except Fly/Bpl) we can't afford not to

[John R81]

If a private hire, not a business hire
If insurance (lack) not specifically drawn to attention and discussed....

Then I suspect that no-one will be paying out in a hurry and I would rate it 75/25 that a court would not enforce payment. Get a good lawyer and take advice.

Cash flow consequences then follow- as a minimum.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

How long before a JCB/De-icing Rig is parked across the hanger doors?

... or there is a mass fly out to Kirkbride, Barton, Bagby or the IOM.

[boy entrant]

last time the airport impounded all the aircraft he operated, and the owners had to cough up for the fuel bill, it's now a week since anything flew and he hasn't found an Idiot with money, must be a worrying time for investors OK for him though he can go back to delivering milk

[asitwas]

sometimes in life justice has a habit of finding a way to bite you !

[taxi_driver]

How old and in what sort of condition are these supposed £35 grand aircraft?

Most 20-40 year old, worn out flying school type machines, like C172's and Pa28's are worth no more than £10k on a good day in todays market.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Reference to G-INFO on the CAA website states, in relation to G-ATRR:

'Insurance details in respect of aircraft G-ATRR

'EC Regulation 785/2004 on insurance requirements for air carriers and aircraft operators requires that all aircraft (subject to some exclusions) flying within the European Economic Area carry minimum levels of insurance in respect of third parties, passengers, baggage and cargo. In the UK, evidence of insurance is being requested as part of the registration process as one of the methods of ensuring compliance with the new regulation.

'The following is an estimate of the minimum insurance requirements based on the information held by the CAA. Please read the notes that follow the estimate.

'It is the operators or air carriers responsibility to ensure that the aircraft is insured in accordance with the requirements of EC Regulation 785/2004 at all times'.

...

Minimum Cover ((Combined Single Limit) for Non-Commercial Operations) : GBP 1,770,300.

How do these requirements reconcile with the statement in the Flying Order Book that it is recommended that 'private Insurance for the Pilot to be taken out by the Pilot / Commander' and the alleged writ issued by RM to the pilot?

Separately, according to the CAA website there was a change of ownership on 25 April 2013 when RM purchased the aircraft from Blue Sky Investments of Douglas, IOM - the aircraft having been based on the IOM for many years.

Surely a fair valuation of the aeroplane could be determined from the purchase price paid just prior to the accident at Caernarfon when RM acquired the PA28?

[AirForceNone]

SpannerInTheWerks

Just heard all aircraft associated with RM & Flybpl have been impounded by the airport even if they are privately owned!! As long as he has been using them they are included. :O

No mass fly out for this situation !!:=

AFN

[Upyer RRR]

Just hold your horses a minute or two, guys and gals. Bear in mind that while you are chortling and laughing about the situation, there are people working at Fly Bpl who stand to lose their livelihoods, and for those paid by the flying hour, they are earning absolutely nothing at the moment. It may be a figure of fun for some of you, but for other people the situation is pretty bleak.

[asitwas]

You have a point U RRR I feel for those people

[BAe 146-100]

For some instructors its also twice its happened to them in less than a year, a few came over from flight academy. The joys of working in ga. :rolleyes:

[boy entrant]

I have heard some bull **** in my time, every one of his instructors has other work (full time Milk round,air traffic controler IT civil servant)they are all part timers 3 of them ended up with him because they were given the push from ANT another from westair and one even got the sack from Flight Academy

[belowradar]

Just wondered if an ex AGL manager who spun out plenty of yarns for Craig Seville now works for this outfit ?

If he does then KARMA is working well:ok:

[tomtytom]

Do we need to ask why they where given the sack or pushes?

[AJMortimer]

I'll always be grateful to RM for providing me with the opportunity to build hours at a very reasonable rate to enable me to complete my ME Instructor Rating and to renew my ME IR during the course of the past year.

I simply could not have afforded the cost of 20+ hours of multi-engine time had it not been for the 'no equity' scheme and G-FBPL.

I don't know the facts associated with the current events as I haven't flown there recently, however best wishes to the staff and club members going forward.

AJM :)

[BAe 146-100]

belowradar

If his first name begins with the letter G he does, came straight over from FA.

[Jeffs26]

Gm left Flybpl at least 5 weeks ago to set up his own business or at least be the manager at hangar 8 Blackpool.
Got to say that if rm is shutting up shop he's very calm about it. I think he may have a rescue plan chaps, might be wrong. Time will tell......

[tomtytom]

It sounds dodgy. I only really understood the paperwork side to planes after buying a share. Now every time I climb into something new or different its not with out checking all the documents are present in date and relevant. Every pilot has done air law and should be aware of the responsibilities to ensure that its all cosher.

[cockney steve]

ensure that its all cosher

Freudian slip? sounds like, if you were a punter, they'd "cosh-yer"
Perhaps "Mugging" would be more appropriate?

[robbo]

Tomytom’s comment ‘Now every time I climb into something new or different its not with out checking all the documents are present in date and relevant’ is very good advice.

Reputable flying clubs operate transparently and will include everything (fuel, VAT, landing fees etc … and the all important hull insurance) in their prices. If it seems cheap – beware, and start asking questions.

[JUST-local]

After a look at all the prices at the Blackpool flying schools/clubs Fly BPL are or were charging the most!

[robbo]

Quite honestly I would check out exactly what is included in the prices quoted by any flying school. Lack of hull insurance would certainly ring alarm bells!
Anyone who has owned an aircraft knows only too well the true costs involved.

[Bob Stinger]

Fly Bpl seem to be coming in for some stick on here . RM has helped lots of people out when they have needed it . I have taken people there who needed certain hours, short of money or impending revalidations when other flying schools couldn't or wouldn't help. As upyer rrr pointed out people are potentially losing their jobs. The loss of fly Bpl would be a bad thing , and I for one hope it doesn't happen. It's easy to sit and write on here under a pen name, I don't.

[robbo]

Bob

I have no issue with any flying club that is open and transparent about their fees and, in particular, its insurance cover – whether it is flybpl or any other flying school.
For me, hull cover is an absolute essential and is something I would always ask about.

No-one wants to hear of people losing their jobs, nor of the closure of any flying school.

As for the rights or wrongs of posting on any forum under a nom de plume. To my knowledge RM himself posts on this same website under two different nom de plumes, possibly more. But, like everyone else – that’s his choice.

[boy entrant]

Hey Bob Stinger I have never heard your name mentioned at Fly Bpl or the old Comed in all the 20 years I have been around RM so give us a bit more info as to who you are ?

[soay]

Hey, boy entrant, your alias doesn't fit very well with your professed 20 years proximity to RM. Maybe that's why you haven't heard of Bob Stinger!

[Upyer RRR]

It seems to me that the subject of this thread has moved from the original 'Is Fly BPL about to close?' to something nearer to 'Does RM give a fair deal on aircraft insurance?' and 'Let's slag him off'.

My information is that Boy Entrant has fairly recently left the employ of RM under something of a cloud, and might have his own agenda; this may explain the tone of some of his postings.

Further information I have been given is that most of the instructors there do not have other jobs. At least three are trying to supplement their pensions.

Bob Stinger is kind to broadly support my concern for those instructors, engineers, office staff/bar staff, likely to be financially embarrassed by the situation. RM is may be not as white as white, but he's no blacker than one or two other names we all know at Blackpool airport.

But anyway chaps, let's get the subject back to the title: Is It The Beginning Of The End? :confused:

[lastchance]

Interesting thing is that when you sign in as a member at flybpl RM has posted a notice advising not to book on line due to a dispute with Blackpool airport. It would appear though that no-one has informed Blackpool airport that they are in a dispute with flybpl. The Corporate Affairs Manager wasn't aware, so what's REALLY going on with RM and flybpl

[tomtytom]

New management at the airport?

[Utterly]

Anyone seen the addition to the FLY bpl website??

[SpannerInTheWerks]

T&C apply

... '£100.00 ticket money will be used to pay off fuel bill'

:}

[Jeffs26]

No equity group at Isle of Man aswell

[SpannerInTheWerks]

... 'the winner will receive a prize of a Piper PA-99 Phoenix, comprising a choice of the best parts of any of the aircraft currently residing as hanger queens within the FlyBpl hanger',

... 'the aircraft will be supplied with no maintenance issues and any subsequent incidents or accidents will therefore be due to pilot error only',

... 'all insurance to be provided by the pilot/owner'.

:} :ok:

[pirx]

As I'm sure you all know, there are a few laws relating to lotteries in the UK:

"Lotteries (also known as raffles) cannot be run for private or commercial gain."

"You need an operating licence from the Gambling Commission if you currently run or want to run a gambling service through remote communication (including online gambling) and any part of your remote equipment is based in Great Britain"

Pirx

[long final]

Win an airplane - £100 a ticket. Priceless!

[boy entrant]

I can tell you who has won it right now .....his bar Manageress.

[Lost in Cloud]

Just had a look at the flybpl website and the 'Win an Aircraft' is a complete joke! Buy a ticket for £100, a draw will take place on 30th Sept, T&C Apply.

There is a buy button... No more details like what the aircraft is, how many tickets will be sold, no link to said T&C (I would at least imagine they mean T&C's). I agree with a previous poster as well about laws governing lotteries and doubt flybpl will be complying with the law.

Seriously anyone who enters their details and hands over their money deserves to be ripped off.

[BAe 146-100]

Absolutely priceless. :D

Takes you straight to Paypal. :ok:

[SpannerInTheWerks]

'Win an aircraft' removed; 'click here for latest offers' added.

Good plan!

... or is it?

I presume the two Pitts will be flown in as required - or is this a misleading advertisement with the flights actually being flown in the Slingsby or the Chippy?

[asitwas]

The website is good entertainment what next ? LOL

[boy entrant]

you will love the fact that he sold three half shares in a Slingsby and the idiot that bought the original half share with him doesn't seem bothered that he now has a third share

[tomtytom]

Has there been any moment on the apron yet?

[Jeffs26]

Only movements are the tumbleweeds. All flights cancelled up to and including this Saturday :ugh:

[boy entrant]

latest Gos Fly/Bpl for sale £400,000 price includes 22 aircraft and he will run the company for you......that should kick off a Stampede of entrepreneurs

[asitwas]

So still looking for someone wealthy and terminally stupid then !

[tomtytom]

He will run the company for you? How very nice.

[gasax]

Having had a license for over 28 years I am still staggered that is such a supposedly highly regulated area there are so many out right crooks. The CAA have perpetuated a system where low lives seem to thrive- off the back of very poor audit and enforcement.

Why is it that financial mal-practice seems to be acceptable?

[SpannerInTheWerks]

that should kick off a Stampede of entrepreneurs

More like a stampede of aircraft owners!

According to G-INFO, on the CAA website, is seems that RM only owns 8 of the aircraft, so I imagine the owners would be somewhat concerned to hear their aircraft are for sale?!?!

[boy entrant]

He is telling his Disciples that all is well and Fly/Bpl is up and running tomorrow
looks like he's found "someone wealthy and terminally stupid then !"

[touch&go]

Maybe Robert should give Peter Whitehead a call he likes to invest in struggling aviation companies.

[pirx]

Pity Jonathan Disley is no longer on the scene: he's good at fixing companies in trouble :)

Pirx

[Jeffs26]

Flybpl still ain't flying this week
The shop is open but there's nothing for sale :ugh:

[boy entrant]

just heard shop closes this Friday

[tomtytom]

You can still buy lessons on the website......

Reckon he will be open monday first thing under a new name.

[MrYeti]

So what has/will have happened to all the group owned planes? will they have paid the fuel monies to Fly BPL and have to pay their bill again to the airport to be able to use their plane?

[SpannerInTheWerks]

RM is one of life's survivors.

A blip like this, whilst inconvenient, won't deter him.

I'm sure, like the Phoenix from the ashes, he will rise again.

[tomtytom]

Will they still be doing the Jet 2 charity 737 pull?

[Lewis Luger]

No great surprise really, you do get the feeling that any venture involving RM is destined for failure. Will he appear again, undoubtedly. At what cost to whom next time?

[asitwas]

So long as it is not the Isle of Man (again!)

[Ebbie 2003]

If you're renting and the hull is also insured in addition to the public ans third party risks it does not been you're safe from the courts in the case of hull damage.

The word to Google is "subrogation" and you need the hull policy to include a subrogation waiver in yor favour - most do not hence the renter policies that Avemo, AOPA egc push so hard - and most of those cover the excess and legal fees for the basic price, for full-protection thepremium is not far off the cost of a separate policy.

Also look to your household insurance cover - it may cover rented sports/recreation equipment - could be nteresting roping in an airplane under that class.

Anyone know how the GBP35K cases have progressed?

[abgd]

I see you're posting from Barbados - is the law the same in Europe?

I've heard of trainee pilots in the states who had to pay for damage, even though they were flying with an instructor. I've never heard of any similar cases from the UK, which obviously is not proof that none exist or could not exist.

All the agreements I've ever signed state the excess for which the pilot may be held responsible. Could I still be held liable for any claim greater than this sum? I've never rented from flyBPL.

[boy entrant]

as far as I know they are all still pending his method is to send the demand and hope they pay up He doesn't have the funds to pursue it

these are the FACTS : G-BBBK circa 5-6 yrs ago fatal accident at EGNH (2 dead)
G-BBEF last year Switzerland (2 dead) this year G-ATRR Caernarfon (1 dead ! critical, amputee) all received an invoice for the Hull
and the common denominator all three were Fly/Bpl aircraft

another Fly/Bpl aircraft G-BULH still impounded (in France) caught in a drug bust a couple of years ago

[Midlifec]

Boy entrant,

Picky I know but best be careful with 'FACTS', BBEF went down year before last, it's certainly a bad showing from one operator though.

:)

[Fox Four]

RM innocent in all instances.

[boy entrant]

RM innocent in all instances.your evidence for this is?

[tomtytom]

Im assuming he is being sarcastic. Either way even though he might not personally be responsible that amount of accidents would suggest something needs investigating. Either the aircraft or the culture of the business.

[boy entrant]

the AAIB have investigated all the accidents and found no fault with any of the 3 aircraft That leaves "The Culture" which in turn means the C.F.I.

[Jackson-Pollox]

Flight academy / aircraft grouping manager and colleague of RM seems to have reopened flight academy...

hangar8blackpool dot co dot uk

Surely this is no coincidence? :eek:

[Flyboater]

Most of these postings are from a small number of fairly new Pprune members, (or at least new Nom de Plumes), some of whom I believe are potential competitors.
Ulterior motives?

[asitwas]

Maybe some are potential creditors ?

[flyalotbob]

I sense there is a common theme in this thread and http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/519937-you-only-gets-what-you-pays.html this thread

[Flight International]

Pearson Ferrier Estate Agents | Hangar 8, Blackpool International Airport (http://www.pearsonferrier.co.uk/commercial-featured/hangar-8-blackpool-international-airport/)

Looks Like Kojak & Compo will be out sooner than they think :{ :{ :{

[robbo]

Well - hello RM

It’s quite a while since you’ve posted under your Flight International nom de plume!

I find it quite hilarious that you are passing a comment about someone else being ‘out sooner than they think’!

[tomtytom]

Still no movement seen last weekend but there was a rather nice pair of euro fighters parked up weekend before.

[MrYeti]

Still no movement seen last weekend but there was a rather nice pair of euro fighters parked up weekend before.

Blackpool airport involving the military?! Things getting serious!

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Maybe RM has the RAF refuelling contract at Blackpool? :}

[david33]

If you have a grievance with Fly Bpl you know what to do. Dirty washing and public are two words that spring to mind. Back stabbers is another phrase which seems to be semi hidden in the recent non- constructive comments aired by some. Whatever happens RM will come out of this and I for one will support him as will others who have been helped by him in the past. Look at the books and figures of those who wish to see the demise of FlyBpl it does not make good reading. Ok FlyBpl need to settle a few things with the management, who only want one thing from FlyBpl and yes you guessed it, it ain't money but a certain property. So all of you rumour merchants that have no idea about what is going on at Egnh would do well o get your facts in order prior to posting harmful garbage. And no I do not hide behind a false name.

[boy entrant]

Well said David ..this is your big chance to help someone yourself, take a loan out on your house and lend him the money for the Fuel

here's a good idea if all the people he has "helped" post on here
then all the people he has ripped of post on here

[asitwas]

I have always been made welcome by Blackpool airport when visiting. TBH Blackpool deserve better than the litany of financial disasters and bad publicity that some of its GA operators have brought upon the airport. If the airport are making a stand and I don't profess to know what the situation is then perhaps that is fully understandable !

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Commercial Dispute with Blackpool Airport

Until further notice members are advised not to book flights on line that operate from Blackpool Airport, Group Locations are operating as normal, please call if you wish an update on 01253 341238.
We hope to have this resolved within the next day or two.

Thankyou for your patience.

Apparently the message has been removed - no further information available?!

[boy entrant]

just heard straight from RM himself everything is back to normal 1st Sept everyone who is owed money will receive an e-mail and will be paid in full on that date if you are not on the e-mail list call in if possible on Monday the 2nd of September you can either get your money back or keep your shares and reinvest with an improved interest rate.."Fly/Bpl Lives"

[tomtytom]

If thats true it sounds like rm has negotiation skills that would be better suited in the middle east

[Jeffs26]

What a strange situation this is.
We've got boy entrant saying he's spoken to rm and all is back to normal 1st sept and yet I've spoken to rm on the phone and he's still not allowing members to book any flights from Blackpool for the foreseeable future.......

[Bluebear1872]

Does anyone know what the latest is with Fly Bpl this month? Are they back operating? Blackpool Airport website doesn't even list them as a flying school :oh:
Flying Schools and Flying Services | Blackpool Airport (http://www.blackpoolinternational.com/corporate/flying-schools-flying-services)

[tomtytom]

It has still looked like very minimal movment last few weekends :(

[boy entrant]

Locks changed by airport early this morning .....Notices on all windows "Closed"

[SpannerInTheWerks]

just heard straight from RM himself everything is back to normal 1st Sept everyone who is owed money will receive an e-mail and will be paid in full on that date if you are not on the e-mail list call in if possible on Monday the 2nd of September you can either get your money back or keep your shares and reinvest with an improved interest rate

A cynical attempt to deflect liability until Locks changed by airport and no chance of creditors being able to confront him?

[Jeffs26]

Like b.e. says, everything's locked up and closed down, hangar doors, front doors, even the bar!
There are letters on the doors to cut it short saying their licence to operate from this building has been terminated. Security guard there parked up in his truck at 8 this morning, looks like he's there all day.

[Bluebear1872]

Sad news - looks like some people will be out of a job then. :sad:
What about anyone who has paid up front for flying - hope they don't loose out.

[The_Observer]

Who owns the Heli-Centre (as was) then, thought RM did?

[Helen49]

Rumour correct regarding the HC hangar.

Next rumour.......RM owns the hangar occupied by the airport fire service and is alleged to have given the airport notice to quit.

Watch this space!!!

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Helen49

LOL

Yes, he's already had a run in with the airport regarding rent and he was right in that respect (in my view).

I wondered how long it would be before the other aspects of RM's relationship with the airport came into play?!

He who laughs last ...

[SpannerInTheWerks]

GA will be a safer place.....!I know of several instances where RM bullied and threathened legal action against pilots who might have died had it not been for their own high standards of airmanship in the face of this coercion to fly unairworthy aeroplanes.

He appears to exhibit sociopathic tendencies - an impoverished moral sense and conscience:

Who in their right mind, as a flight instructor and examiner, would recommend pilots compromise safety to avoid their own commercial loss?

If true, who in their right mind would issue proceedings against a pilot they had known for years immediately after they have crashed and nearly died?

RM's world seems a different place to yours and mine?!

Blackpool Airport is a strange place - with more than it's fair share of 'characters' and at least one leading legal case involving one of those 'characters', Blackpool Borough Council and the House of Lords!

Amazing how they all seem to bounce back (although one is currently residing at Her Majesty's pleasure and one - apparently - has problems with his legs following an altercation with a neighbour - so maybe not much 'bounce' there then :}).

You couldn't make it up.

[The_Observer]

The airport fire service are in the old Heli Centre.

[lastchance]

I know there was cheap flying at FAB and Flybpl and now this is consigned to history, leaving me with a small amount of hour building and a CPL to try and complete. Like many, I'm not made of money and am trying to do this on a budget. If anybody out there knows of any no equity groups that will give an hourly rate of less than £100 wet then let me know about it please.

[JDA2012]

lastchance - what are you flying? I cannot comment on many aspects and indeed am grateful to FlyBPL for my FRTOL (do not believe anyone at Blackpool now issues these), but I could not have used the word "cheap" with regard to them when I was looking at schools.

For hour-building, I currently fly from ANT at Blackpool - C150 £99/month + £69/hr, Cherokee £125 + £89, Archer £125 + £99. £120 annual membership if you aren't already a member - as I trained there I've not had to pay that. I find these rates very reasonable.

[AJMortimer]

According to the CAA website there are three examiners listed, one of whom is Robert and the other two are/were based at other flying schools.

Don't know if they are still active, or have relocated to other establishments?

Here's the link:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Current%20FRTOL%20Examiners%20List%20AUG13.pdf

[lastchance]

JDA2012-I am type rated on C152, C172 and Piper PA28 Cherokee.
I use the word cheap very loosely, as we all know, nothing is 'cheap' in the world of aviation. The prices you have listed seem reasonable in the scheme of things though. Cheers

[mad_jock]

you are not type rated on anything.

You will have a SEP class rating which covers you for every different kind of aircraft in that class.

You may be permitted to currently fly those types with a club and not other types but that is purely local rules for hire and nothing to do with any licnese requirements.

There is absolutely nothing stopping you buying say a robin and going out and flying it with zero training.

[Duckeggblue]

There is absolutely nothing stopping you buying say a robin and going out and flying it with zero training.

...other than Common Sense. :)

[mad_jock]

Been there done it and it isn't a problem. Same with a Katana.

How do you think people fly all the single seaters for the first time?

[SpannerInTheWerks]

The following message has been published on the flybpl.com website:

Important Notice to Customers

It is with regret that flybpl.com has ceased all operations due to a commercial on-going dispute with Blackpool Airport. For customers who have purchased Flight Vouchers from Voucher companies, please get onto your voucher company and ask for a relocation or a refund.

For customers that have in date Fly Blackpool Vouchers please get in touch with your Credit Card provider for a full refund as the service you purchased is no longer available.

If you require assistance then please email [email protected]

Thankyou

[Jeffs26]

Well, AirforceNone, looks like your question has been finally answered.
I bet gm is smirking ear to ear. Rm gave you a job gm when you needed one, how about returning the favour 😉

[Bluebear1872]

So it looks like another RM venture bites the dust then :ouch:
I wonder what will happen with the aircraft & hangar?
Maybe RM & GM will team up together, buy hangar 8 that is currently up for sale - and create the best run & managed general aviation training facility in the north of England :rolleyes:;):O:=

[PWM1962]

God there are some backstabbing saddo’s on this sight.



I for one have had involvement with FlyBPL & Comed overthe last 20 years. In this time I have met a lot of decent people including RMof course, and have enjoyed many hours of socialising and flying alike.



RM has put a lot of hours in for the love of aviation and Iam truly saddened by the demise of his company. I am thankful that some peoplehave pointed out that this recent demise has not only affected RM but alsomembers of his staff who like us all have bill’s to pay and mouths to feed.



It would appear that lots of you are quick to dish the dirtand mock at the misfortune of others. Probably the same people have never hadthe responsibility of running a business and would therefore not understand theextreme pressure that proprietors and directors are constantly under for manyreasons. Most would just expect to turn up and fly without any consideration ofthe mechanics of organising a flying school or self fly hire operation.



In the past five or six years we have seen a downturn inmost sectors and more so in GA. Escalating fuel prices, maintenance outlay& insurance costs have all rocketed and yet most schools including FlyBPLhave kept the prices as low as possible as to keep us privileged PPL holders inthe sky. A price increase in any business always causes a comment from acustomer, but this is more apparent in general aviation as the majority ofparticipants can only just about afford to take part in what is a mostenjoyable past time, weather permitting!



Yes, no doubt there have been financial casualties andpeople have lost out in this instance. This has not been un-common in lots andlots of businesses of late, it’s the sad consequence of recession that have hitus all, some more than others. The only indiscretion of RM as I see it is totry and keep everyone happy by not charging enough. All the gossip about GM,FAB, FlyBPL, etc etc etc in most cases is hearsay or somebody’s opinion. As weknow, opinion’s are like arseholes, everyone has got one. And none so more assome of the idiots in Blackpool.



Get off his (RM) case, as you will all be there to takeadvantage of his good nature at the next flying establishment that he, givenhis personal drive and commitment to GA, will no doubt have set up soon.



RM, I wish you luck and good fortune in whatever you do.

[asitwas]

Spirited words P Mc ...

Any words of support for the trail of creditors left in Fly BPL,s wake ? or historically ?

Do you think that the protections of a Ltd liability company should mean you can just continue to walk away shrug your shoulders and start again ?

[piperboy84]

No idea who RM or Flybl is, but feel sorry for any little guy whose business goes BK and can only dream of availing himself to a bailout from the public purse like those ****ebag bankers, hedgefunders, cents on the dollar foreign debt buying , golden parachuting,politician bribing, goal post moving motherf*&kers we've had steering the financial ship over the last 10 years that's led to a lot of small business failures

Just my 2 cents !

[boy entrant]

I for one have had involvement with FlyBPL & Comed overthe last 20 years. In this time I have met a lot of decent people including RMof course

These are not the words of anyone who has known RM over the last 20 years

[PWM1962]

Yes they are, I speak as I find, and RM has always been courteous and accommodatingwith me!

[Don Mercer]

I also have known RM for many many years ( ran his bar for about 10 yrs) a:=nd I also have a lot of good things to say about him. He makes mistakes ..but he has also given a lot of people their first step up the Aviation ladder..stop knocking him..He will return no doubt..he always seems to pull something out of the bag !! He`s like the Phoenix, rises from the ashes..although rather charred now !

[Saab Dastard]

boy entrant

I'm glad that you removed your last post - saved me from having to do so. That sort of thing is not tolerated here.

SD

[dsc810]

Like @Piperboy above I've no idea who all the characters are and who might have said or did what in this saga....however unlike Piperboy in many cases I feel rather more sorry for the creditors and employees than those running the businesses.

I certainly know of a cases (non aviation) where said company goes bust, creditors get stuffed, employess get sacked, customers get nought.........and the person running the "business" walks away laughing and carrying on around the village just as normal. Shortly after they start a new business.
How do they do it you ask, why do people believe them? Well these sort of people are always very gregarious, interesting, outgoing personalities and in in many cases perfectly pleasant characters - on the outside anyway. So people believe them and think it will be different this time round..............

[craig50]

Having known (RM) for more years than I care to remember,i can't believe so many people want to come on here and kick him while he is down.I personally have numerous amounts of favours from him over the years,as I suspect a lot of the kickers have had too.As for some of the knockers he is a genuine guy who tries to help everybody,but then of course some who he sees as friends will stab him in the back.Not mentioning any names but this always happens in life.Ican only say I have never been forced to fly in anything that was not fit for flight or unfavourable conditions.Yes money is a big part of life but bear in mind firstly he was running a business,and also other attempts at businesses to run alongside the flying club.Yes he does own the hanger the fire service use but would you sell it when the airport is under constant threat of development,after all it is owned by a large building company.RM could probably sell this and pay the bill but would you?(the hanger is his jewel in the crown if it ever comes to re development.
I hope hangar8 fails miserably and then we can come on here and kick them while they are going through this torment.
If I had any money I would back (RM)through this without a second thought and stand at the bar watching all the backstabbers coming for a drink at their old mates bar.Good luck RM be along soon and have a beer.

[AirForceNone]

Hello Robert. ........

Nice to hear from you

Look forward to seeing you soon ..... The 27th I believe??

AFN

[boy entrant]

"If I had any money I would back (RM)through this without a second thought"

Have you tried Wonga ?

[Pianorak]

There is absolutely nothing stopping you buying say a robin and going out and flying it with zero training.

. . . except the insurance company demanding their pound of flesh. Just joined a Robin group, but my 700+ hrs on Warrior/Archer/Arrow counted for nowt.

[Lost in Cloud]

Yes he does own the hanger the fire service use but would you sell it when the airport is under constant threat of development,after all it is owned by a large building company. RM could probably sell this and pay the bill but would you?(the hanger is his jewel in the crown if it ever comes to re development.

If he owns hangar 8, could sell it and pay his creditors, then YES he should bloody well sell it!!!

I am not involved with Blackpool at all, have never met the guy and up to this point could not comment on the on going good / bad battle in this thread.

However if he has let a company go bust with the loss of jobs as well as many a struggling pilot losing out on monies already paid, WHEN he has an asset sat there AND selling it would clear his debts BUT chose not to because he viewed 'his' asset as a 'Jewel in the crown' THEN this is simply unacceptable.

To shelter assets rather than pay debts is not the sign of an honest man. It is a weak man's way out to keep his own nest feathered leaving a trail of creditors in his wake. From what some people have wrote this is not the first time he has done this either (again I do not know whether this is true or not, but if it is there is certainly a pattern emerging).

[lastchance]

I do apologize for my use of terminology, but each time I have moved to another aircraft I have had to fly with an instructor who has used the terminology of type rating. I am a relatively new pilot and as such if I am advised that I have been type rated on different aircraft, who am I to argue. Just seems common sense that to fly a different aircraft, given the unforgiving nature of flying, you would undergo a certain amount of advice and tuition first.

[frontlefthamster]

Equally, it makes sense that if you have a licence, you would have been taught and examined on licence privileges and restrictions. Any instructors who talk about 'type ratings' on single-engine piston aircraft are apparently as much in the dark as you are...

[flybymike]

frontlefthamster

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: France
Posts: 478
Equally, it makes sense that if you have a licence, you would have been taught and examined on licence privileges and restrictions. Any instructors who talk about 'type ratings' on single-engine piston aircraft are apparently as much in the dark as you are...

Does the PA46 not require a type rating? The turbine version does and I think the SEP may do also (as well as HPA endorsement)

[tomtytom]

Answering the original queston apparently yes it is the end

http://m.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/news/business/local-business/plane-company-hit-by-licence-ban-1-6052403

[emperess762]

Good riddance RM !!!!!

[asitwas]

As I said earlier it cannot be right to continue to walk away from creditors and rise like a Phoenix ! I am sure this is not in the spirit of company law !

[Fox Four]

What news of 'The Troyd'?

[tomtytom]

There are still 2 burly bail lift blokes sat in the small reception area (must be cosy) and the small car park and bar has been fenced off with some vehicles.

[Jeffs26]

Read the post Rm put on here again........

[Fox Four]

Bail lifts or Bailiffs?

[AirForceNone]

Looks like Mr Murgatroyd is no longer on the board for the helicentre.

http://companycheck.co.uk/company/04398444/HELICENTRE-BLACKPOOL-LIMITED

Anybody able to decipher & put it in lay man terms? :O

AFN

[SpannerInTheWerks]

It seems that RM has left the board of directors and two new directors have been appointed - a Mr D Harbuttle and a Mr D M Harburrle.

Who Mr Harbuttle and Mr Harburrle are is not clear as a Google search brings up no references to either gentleman as being a company director? So even this is confusing?!

And all within a week.

Sounds like something from Alice in Wonderland!

:confused:

PS: Apologies if Mr Harbuttle and Mr Harburrle are well-known to other PPruNers and not just figments of RM's imagination!!!

[zimbo565]

Had a quick look at the Cos House records and the address given for both is in the Turks & Caicos Islands (must be a hell of a commute) and both give the same date of birth.

One (Harbottle) is shown as being a director of Ottershaw Park Mansion Ltd between 2008 and 2010.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

As I intimated: Tweedledum and Tweedledee!!!

The recent history of the Turks and Caicos Islands is one of Government corruption and other dubious carryings on.

Maybe the perfect sunny retreat for an expat flying club owner - there's no flying club (that I know of) on either Provo or Grand Turk - but there were a number of airframes available following the destruction of a hanger caused by Hurricane Ike on Grand Turk airfield four or so years ago.

[TShan1]

I don't know who operates out of Hangar 2 in Blackpool, or whether or not it is related to this particular company, but my flying experience this Sunday has been cancelled as the company has gone into admin. Luckily I booked through a different company who used this company for the experience, so I haven't lost out, but another firm has bit the dust by the look of it!

[boy entrant]

I think this is one for you I.O.M Guys what is going on with these two It seems that RM has left the board of directors and two new directors have been appointed - a Mr D Harbuttle and a Mr D M Harburrle.both with same D.O.B how can anything so blatant be a good Plan to gain an advantage in a monetary way

[MrYeti]

I wouldn't worry looks like HarbUttle was submitted end of August and a day or so later was amended to HarbOttle. Simply looks like an admin error at CoyHs. There is only one Change of Director form.

[boy entrant]

CAA are prosecuting RM for "fraudulently producing aircraft documents" (C.R.S)

[Robin400]

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive! (Sir Walter Scott 1771-1832)

[asitwas]

Disappointed for the reflection on GA but perhaps not surprised !

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Disappointed for the reflection on GA but perhaps not surprised !

Unfortunately, yes.

Apart from the alleged "fraudulently producing aircraft documents"

There are also issues in respect of:
1. Tax (a lot of the payments were taken as 'cash in hand');
2. VAT (ditto, and not charged in some cases);
3. Aircraft flown in an uninsured and unairworthy state;
4. Actions unbecoming of a flight instructor and authorised flight examiner.

Moderators: All of the above can be proven.

I applaud the efforts of RM to provide cheap flying in a variety of aircraft which has enabled many to fly when it may not otherwise have been possible.

I deplore the methods used to achieve this ideal when the lives of pilots and passengers are put at risk through the negligence, inadvertence or indifference of a person with whom a great level of trust and respect has been placed by those who seek to use the aviation services provided.

[JasonS]

Hi all,

A heads-up to anyone that's flown into Blackpool over the last six months or so and paid their landing fee to Fly Blackpool instead of to the girls at the Flight Operations centre. According to a letter of explanation I received today from the Airport, it appears that landing fees and other charges may not have been making their way to the Airport. As a result, under the Civil Aviation Act 1982, aircraft like mine today are being impounded when they next turn up at Blackpool until such time as the charges are cleared. It would be worth checking with the Airport's Corporate Affairs Manager, Susan Kendrick, whether you're on the list of target aircraft. It was not a short list.

Cheers, etc.

[boy entrant]

latest ....His (RM's) Bailiffs will be shutting down the Helicenter on Tuesday 1st October and impounding the Fire Trucks thereby closing the Airport and preventing all Jet 2 operations

this I have to see

[asitwas]

Seems like Blackpool is a place to avoid at the moment !

A real nest of vipers.

[Dog's Bone]

If you put COMED in the search box you will unearth some ancient threads, of which this is but one.

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/51019-court-action-blackpool.html

History repeats itself in many walks of life.

[JasonS]

Ye gods. I guess I was fortunate that I've only been stung for £9.84.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

You couldn't write it!!!

[boy entrant]

a Milkman that never progressed beyond PPL

[touch&go]

Well I did ok out of RM, he gave my my first commercial job back in 2000 alas it did only last 3 months before the company folded,but it was a start and now sat at the pointy end of a very large Airbus in the Gulf so he is not all bad.

Cheers Rob.

[asitwas]

Unless of course you are in the trail of devastation left behind !

[touch&go]

True RM has always courted controversy but was able to walk away with a free rating and a step off the bottom of the ladder, also a lot of help from PS and TABS.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Well I did ok out of RM, he gave my my first commercial job back in 2000 ... but it was a start and now sat at the pointy end of a very large Airbus in the Gulf so he is not all bad.

Good for you!!! :)

alas it did only last 3 months before the company folded

No surprise there then?!

[PURPLE PITOT]

I still have my last (returned) paycheck from the comedy bandit days. It's framed on my office wall:ok:

I can't help those that have lost out, so i can only watch and laugh at the shennanigans as they play out.

Seriously though Robert, don't upset Meeson!

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Does anyone know the significance of the connection between RM and DMH, 74, director of British North West Airline Limited based at Richmond House, Leeward Highway, Providenciales, Turks and Caicos Islands, British West Indies?

Has Mr H exchanged the Flyde coast for the sub-tropical Atlantic coast?

Obviously a connection to RM - as he has recently become a director of Helicentre Blackpool Limited.

Although British North West Airline Limited is dissolved as far as Companies House is concerned (and had an address at British North West Suite, Blackpool Airport FY4 2QY until March 2009), Mr H describes himself as a senior pilot with said airline under his LinkedIn profile, based in the TCI.

He is also listed as being an Airline Transport Pilot living in Ottershaw, Surrey?

In view of recent carryings on, the timing of this change in directors at the Helicentre in obviously significant and maybe a prelude to future events?

[Notoc]

.... and don't forget the guys who flew you into EGNH for the interview.

But thanks to RM for giving you your First Officer position.

[touch&go]

Notoc, yes thanks for the intro was a bit of a world wind that week, can't believe how time has flown. Will give you a call this week.

[sport350]

I have known RM since 1998, when I took my first flying lesson with Comed. Whilst all may not like his business manner or personality, I have always found him to be a very nice guy and always helpful. It's not easy to be in business and easy for those who have never been in business to criticise. I have been in business myself for over 30 years and have experiences almost everything that could happen. I wish RM all the best and hope that he can sort out his problems. I have a user name of sport350, but I am a retired PPL taught by Comed and my name is David Frost.

[MrYeti]

latest ....His (RM's) Bailiffs will be shutting down the Helicenter on Tuesday 1st October and impounding the Fire Trucks thereby closing the Airport and preventing all Jet 2 operations

Surely if they know this then they will just move the fire trucks? Anyway if the fire trucks are out of action then doesn't the airfield just technically become unlicensed and therefore only the commercial stuff will halt. The flying schools will be OK?

[Fox Four]

David, I don’t think it’s the man, it’s more his methods. Tell me, what circumstance permits you to falsify the legal documentation associated with an aircraft and its operation? If he’s found guilty of these alleged offences, I hope they hang him out to dry, and I’m sure a custodial sentence is inevitable. The paper trail, nuisance though it is, has been put in place for a reason. You can’t just ignore it when finances don’t stretch. It’s the others in the periphery I’m concerned for, how much blame will he try a lay off on them?

[sport350]

There are no circumstances that permit breaking the law. But that is for a court of law to decide. As you say these are alleged offences and everyone is deemed innocent until proved guilty.

[The_Observer]

David, alleged in this instance so far. I think everyone knows it's a given. As for historic mistakes.

Echo Fox, date of incident 14th October 2011? Oh dear. ARC expired 30 August 2011.



1.3 Aircraft information


Registration G-BBEF

Aircraft type Piper PA-28-140

Characteristics Single-engined four-seater, low wings, metal construction

with fixed landing gear in nose wheel configuration.

Manufacturer Piper Aircraft Corporation, USA

Year of manufacture 1973

Serial no. 28-7325527

Registration certificate Issued by the CAA, on 16 October 2009

Airworthiness review certificate

Airworthiness Review Certificate ARC, issued on 31


August 2010 at 14,448:00 hours TSN1, valid until


30 August 2011

Area of use VFR (visual flight rules)

Emergency beacon Not fitted

[boy entrant]

This is for the people who come on here to say what a good bloke RM is. The pilot of RR (Caernarfon) as any normal person would know is still trying to come to terms with the loss of his Son whilst he is very painfully learning to walk again.
A couple of Nights ago at 2am he was woken up by an anonymous phone call which went something like "neither the the missing wing bolts or the paperwork issues were responsible for the accident YOU caused the crash ,it was Pilot error" and hung up.
So If any of the RM supporters out there believe he had nothing to do with this I'm listening

[pirx]

I didn't know about the wing bolts: any more info ?

[bartonflyer]

If true, then that call needs reporting to the police - as it would appear to be harrassment which is a breach of the various telecommunications legislations
Harassment Law - Malicious Communications (http://www.neiladdison.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/comm.htm)

[boy entrant]

It has been reported to and taken up by the police they are trying to match the time he received the call with the time it was made, not too many people make calls at 2am so should get a result

[SpannerInTheWerks]

trying to match the time he received the call with the time it was made

I expect it was at PRECISELY the same time - give or take a milliseconds or two!!!

:}

(I know what you mean!!! Let's hope the Police pick up on that and don't waste too many man hours on the problem LOL)

[Mike Cross]

It should not be too difficult. Having spent over 30 years running my own telecoms company I can tell you that there are two CLI's (Calling Line Identities) this is the number that identifies the source of the call.

The Presentation CLI is what appears on your phone, or does not if you have not paid for it, if the call is from an Ex Directory Number, or if the caller has witheld it. This number can be the number of the line the call was made from or can be another number associated with the "owner" of the line. For example XYZ Company may have Direct Dial Numbers for all of its extensions but might present the Sales Line number if the call has come from a salesman or the main switchboard number if it was the MD calling.

The other CLI is the Network CLI, which actually identifies the source of the call. This is kept within the network and does not reach the called party, it does however form part of the carrier's call record and so should be relatively easy to locate. Even if the caller witheld his number the network CLI is still there.

There will be a very few calls where the data is not available but these usually involve calls from places where they are still using fairly ancient exchange equipment, typically overseas.

Of course if it's a pay as you go mobile bought over the counter in a supermarket it can be more tricky tying the originating number to an individual.

[RGM]

McGuire served with a Bankruptcy petition tonight, hand delivered to his home and Hangar 8 :{:{:{
The start of many !!!

Boy Entrant Barring Instructors, Customers, all because they won.t buy his clapped out 1967 leased Cherokee, Oh Dear, Oh Dear !!!
Hangar 8 purchase nearly complete :ugh:
Exit sign is illuminated, the door is this way :D

[boy entrant]

Mike Crossthanks for that input so there is a possibility that even if we don't find who sent it they can identify the house where it was sent from?

[Mike Cross]

There's a good chance the Police may be able to find out. They have the power to require the records and we were on occasion asked to provide them. That said what we had were records of outgoing calls. The mechanics of how they obtain incoming call records I don't know, however I do know that they have the ability to trace such calls.

[soay]

Ask GCHQ or the NSA. They record everything:

Edward Snowden NSA files: secret surveillance (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/21/edward-snowden-nsa-files-revelations)

[foxmoth]

So, did anything happen on 1st?

[The_Observer]

Nope, all complete nonsense.

[Jeffs26]

McGuire served with a Bankruptcy petition tonight, hand delivered to his home and Hangar 8
The start of many !!!

Boy Entrant Barring Instructors, Customers, all because they won.t buy his clapped out 1967 leased Cherokee, Oh Dear, Oh Dear !!!
Hangar 8 purchase nearly complete
Exit sign is illuminated, the door is this way

That you Robert (RGM)?
Is the rumour about you buying hangar 8 true then or is this all just a big wind up?

[Fox Four]

I would say it's complete and utter bollocks, rumour spread by the sad little man so we continue to discuss him.

[asitwas]

If RGM is indeed RGM I would be amused by what his description of a "clapped out aircraft" actually is !!!!!!!!!

[Bluebear1872]

So is the new Hangar 8 venture up & running or is it grounded even before it takes off?

[horatio_b]

The Hangar 8 website mentions that a PA38 and C172 are
to be added shortly, to complement their recently acquired PA28. Time will tell...............

[SpannerInTheWerks]

For those of us who don't know - who is GAMcG and what is the background to 'Hanger 8'?

[G Mc]

As you can see I am a new member & do not normally post on forums but thought it necessary in this instance.

I currently operate out of Hangar 8 at Blackpool Airport. For anyone wishing to enquire about the services Hangar 8 can offer please do not hesitate to contact me on the below methods.

I realise that Hangar 8 at Blackpool Airport is infamous due to a certain individual who is now at Her Majesty's pleasure. The previous companies that operated from here were

1 Flight Academy Blackpool Ltd
2 Aircraft Grouping Ltd
3 Silverstar Maintenance Services
4 Mann Air Ltd
5 Command Aviation Ltd
6 Equity Air Ltd

I can confirm that Craig Seville (or whatever name he will go by) has NO involvement in this business nor shall he on his release or at any time. I believe that these companies have either been struck off or are in the process of being.

With regards to the barring of customers I can confirm the NO customers have been barred unless they are self imposed. Again I am happy to discuss any topic regarding Hangar 8 on the contact details below but not on a anonymous public forum.

George McGuire
Hangar 8
Blackpool Airport
01253 402678
[email protected]

[cockney steve]

@ Spanner........this is a long, complex and sorry saga.
Isuggest reading the whole thread, note the names of the protaganists and companies involved and then feed them into the "search" function...


Then, next month.....:}

[SpannerInTheWerks]

G Mc

Thank you for the explanation and it will be interesting to see how your business develops.

Cockney Steve

Yes, I take your point - I've written a bit of this Thread (some reasonable, some frivolous) and I'm aware of many of the issues raised.

I had hoped there might be a synopsis explaining the history but, as you state, 'this is a long, complex and sorry saga'!

I've had involvement with some of the protagonists at Blackpool over the years - BB mainly bad, RM mainly good and some bad (could have been a lot worse if the rumours on this site are true regarding aircraft serviceability) and CS none at all (although his name rings a bell from the dim and distant past?!).

Judging by his age (36) G Mc seems to be a relatively 'new kid on the block' so I hope the mould has been broken?

Never a dull moment at Blackpool though!!!

Had my first pleasure flight there in the 50s in a Dragon Rapide and seem to have been involved off and on over the years ever since.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

I note from the Hanger 8 website, in common with FlyBpl, that the Pilot Flying Order Book states under Paragragh 1.7:

'It is the individual responsibility of pilots to ensure that adequate insurance is carried and that all such policy certificates are valid and current. Details of the precise terms of the insurance cover under which Company aircraft are operated may be supplied on request. Pilots are reminded that, in line with most aircraft insurance policies, personal injury cover is only extended to third parties and passengers [Hanger 8's Public Liability Insurance]. Pilots shall make their own arrangements for personal accident insurance.'

So be careful - you will most likely find yourself liable in the event of an accident - whether you're liable in any event needs to be clarified.

George McGuire - could you cast some light on the insurance liability of pilots/club members as you see it?

You have been helpful so far with information relating to your new venture.

[MrYeti]

Bit confused by this as it doesn't look as onerous as you seem to want to make out but I may be missing something.

The PL insurance cover extends to include third parties - ie passengers and third parties. It doesn't extend to include the pilot for Personal Accident.

To me this says if you hit a third party, something drops off or you have an accident and injure a passenger then the insurance will cover the legal liability to the third party should they make a claim. What it won't cover is the injury, hospitalisation etc of the pilot.

If you review the risks of such a policy i would assume that claims from pilots for injury are the highest risk, an aeroplane will always have a pilot i presume. The passangers LIabilty is next on the list but there won't always be passangers and thirdly hitting TP's would be low on the risk profile so it doesn't seem odd that insurers would limit or exlude Pilot injury.

The pilot could, if proven that the aircraft was faulty beyond the pre-flight inspection, ie faulty wing strut etc claim against the flying club, afterall the club can't completley avoid its legal liability. The flying club could then subrogate this against the engineering firm who carried out the inspection for example.

It doesn't say that the pilot is liable for the cost of the aeroplane in the event of an accident as appears to be suggested in earlier posts.

I may be wrong and am happy to be corrected.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Mr Yeti

What it won't cover is the injury, hospitalisation etc of the pilot - and any damage to the aircraft and/or any consequential loss suffered by a passenger or third party.

Yes, in my mind there is some confusion.

I always believed when flying in a club/school environment, as a club member, the insurance provided by the club/school was the equivalent of a 'fully comprehensive' car insurance policy.

When you took passengers (non-club members) flying they became temporary members (signed a 'blood chit') which effectively gave them the benefits of the insurance cover provided for the member pilot.

It seems the insurance which is actually available is 'third party only' - with the passenger not being a club/school member and treated as if they were a member of the public under a company's Public Liability Insurance.

The hapless pilot does not seem to be covered at all? Not being a 'third party' and not having cover as a consequence of any vicarious liability of the club - I wonder where instructors fit into this, particularly if they're 'self-employed'?

So, the wording of the Pilot Flying Order Book does seem to reflect this state of affairs where the pilot is liable for any loss suffered as a consequence of him hiring and operating the aircraft whether or not it could be deemed to be 'pilot error' in the event of an incident or accident - liable in any event irrespective of whether it was caused by the negligence of the pilot.

[asitwas]

The race to the bottom in terms of absolute hourly cost does have implications across the board in terms of aircraft, and insurance etc etc !

There is a minimum standard which all those who train, hire, fly should insist on and be prepared to pay for. This is a general observation not aimed at anyone in particular but useful for those who may be new to the GA game to be aware of !

[Impressive_Wingspan]

SpannerInTheWerks,

Don't take this the wrong way but i think you need to pick a couple of books up and start reading.

There is a lot of i "believes" and "seems" in your posts. Why not look at the aircraft document book, see who the insurers are and call them for a chat to discuss your exposure? I am sure they would be more than happy to cover the risk for you passengers and aircraft as a separate policy. You would be surprised how cheap it is!! Most clubs are very similar to what you have outlined.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Impressive_Wingspan

No offensive taken in any way.

Why not look at the aircraft document book, see who the insurers are and call them for a chat to discuss your exposure?

I'm not sure any insurer would disclose information unless you were a member of a club/school - as this would be data protected information.

'Believes' and 'seems' because I don't have access to any information other than that published in the public domain. Without complete knowledge it is difficult to draw a definite conclusion - hence the uncertaintly surrounding my comments.

Most clubs are very similar to what you have outlined.

Yes, I'm beginning to realise that you're probably right and the situation that prevailed years ago when I started flying is very different to the one today.

I wonder how many pilots know the true nature of the insurance in place when the hire a club aircraft and what their actual liability might be?

Imagine writing off an average twin, injuring four passengers and causing damage to 'third party' property at the scene of the incident - £millions potentially in damages.

Below is an extract of the Terms and Conditions relating to the delivery of flight training, as published on the web by one of the country's private/commercial flight training organisations:

6.13 [The Company] and the Student acknowledge and agree that there are inherent risks and dangers associated with the operation of aircraft and, further, that many of these risks and dangers continue to arise, despite the exercise of reasonable care by the parties. The Student hereby acknowledges that it assumes all risks, both known and unknown, associated with or related to the operation of aircraft. [The Company] shall not be liable for any liability arising out of the Course, save where such liability arises from the neglect or wilful act or default of [The Company], or its employees, agents or sub-contractors, in which case, [The Company]’s liability shall be limited to the smallest of: the actual amount of any loss or damage suffered by the Student; and £500,000. However, nothing in this agreement shall exclude any liability of [The Company] for death or personal injury resulting from its own negligence or that of its employees, agents or sub-contractors. THE STUDENT’S ATTENTION IS DRAWN SPECIFICALLY TO THE PROVISIONS OF THIS CLAUSE 6.13.

6.14 The Student shall indemnify [The Company] against any loss or damage which is related to any breach by the Student of this agreement or any act or omission by the Student in relation to the Course, and shall pay all costs and expenses, including professional fees, incurred in, and [The Company]'s reasonable charges for, dealing with the breach and its consequences. This clause shall not apply to any loss or damage covered by any separate agreement between the Student and [The Company] pursuant to which the Student is not liable for such loss or damage.

I've omitted the Flight School's name for obvious reasons and substituted 'The Company'. My italics, but the Flying School's bold print. The implications are obvious - no 'believes' or 'seems' here!!!

Next time you go flying (or instructing) consider the potential monetary liability that could arise - and for which you may be liable - out of an accident or incident irrespective of whether it's your fault or not?!

Some may consider RM tactless in his alleged approach for the recover of damages from the pilot of the Cherokee which crashed at Caernarvon.

But this is a commercial World with little place for sentiment. It may be that RM was legally quite justified in his pursuit of damages from the pilot in connection with that accident?

... and that any other flying training organisation would be advised by their lawyers and insurers to do the same.

[dont overfil]

I find it difficult to believe that anybody would knowingly rent an aircraft with third party only insurance. I am also surprised that the CAA permit training under these circumstances.

It is suggested on here that this may be common practice. It certainly is not where I come from. Perhaps we should name and shame organisations who rent under these circumstances.

D.O.

[Lost in Cloud]

I find it difficult to believe that anybody would knowingly rent an aircraft with third party only insurance. I am also surprised that the CAA permit training under these circumstances.

I completely agree! If FTOs are effectively offering lessons and renting out aircraft with, what is in effect, third party only insurance, then this is plain wrong.

Even if a student was made fully aware what was happening in return for cheap rates, you have to question the ethics of doing such a thing and whether the student fully understand the consequences. Flying is an expensive game and saving £10 or £20 p/h will draw attention and encourage take up.

Certainly hiding the insurance SCAM in the small print is not on, I doubt anyone is actually told they are hiring 3rd party insurance only!

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Certainly hiding the insurance SCAM in the small print is not on, I doubt anyone is actually told they are hiring 3rd party insurance only!

Yes, I wondered a few years ago why flying clubs and schools never insisted on 'blood chits' anymore.

The reason is obvious now I've thought about it and looked into the implications in more detail.

This Thread has been useful in that regard if no other.

You're not covered because you accept full liability for ALL losses, save that of negligence by the flying school and it's 'servants and agents'.

Although I deal with insurance and the law in the course of my business and profession, I'm not an expert in the sense that I know the precise common law situation and whether any precedents have been set recently in this regard (in other words are the terms and conditions legal in all respects?).

I can only imagine that they are because the case I highlighted above has the hallmark of a professionally drafted set of terms and conditions - with advice (no doubt) being taken from the legal and insurance professions?

So the answer is clear - fly and/or instruct at your peril because whether you take 'reasonable care' or are 'negligent' you APPEAR to be liable in any event!

WIVES love this sort of thing - NOT!!!

When you go home tonight tell her that not only should she worry about you aviating for a hobby in the first place - with all its perceived risks - but that if you are ever killed in a light aeroplane accident, in the weeks after she buries you, and before she has time to grieve, she will probably have her house, car and possessions taken away as well in the ensuring insurance claim!!!

Just the thing to put a right old spanner in the works!

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Scenario:

Instructor, taxiing aircraft to apron, suffers brake failure.

In spite of his best efforts he is unable to avoid a collision with a parked aircraft owned by a third party.

The student is acting as PUT and the instructor, as P1, is in command of the aircraft.

There is no negligence on the part of the instructor.

According the Terms and Conditions stated above:

'The Student hereby acknowledges that it assumes all risks, both known and unknown, associated with or related to the operation of aircraft.'

and,

'[The Company] shall not be liable for any liability arising out of the Course, save where such liability arises from the neglect or wilful act or default of [The Company], or its employees, agents or sub-contractors …'

The instructor is an employee and was not guilty of any 'neglect or wilful act or default …'

The student is apparently liable for all losses arising out of the incident.

[md 600 driver]

Spanner in the works
Surely It's similar to car hire I rented a car fully insured all I had to do in case of accident was to pay the excess of 1500, I could if I wanted take extra insurance out that was my choice

I insure my helicopters 3 rd party because it's cheaper ,why shouldn't other people be allowed to do same especially if it made a good enough saving on training and SFH you have already said it was in the terms and conditions

Your venom against the owners of flybpl maybe clouding your judgement

[dsc810]

With car insurance, insurance in place for third party claims are a requirement of the law.
So you can either have 'comprehensive' or '3rd party'
The main difference is that the costs of repairing/replacing your car are included in comprehensive (plus other sundry stuff).
Regardless of what policy you have you are always covered against claims made against you for damage to other vehicles and other stuff you might hit including people by your actions.

It appears here and from the extract provided above that there is no third party insurance being offered by the club to the pilot hiring and if said pilot is under instruction then the club is deliberately transfering all its risks onto the pilot under instruction - who is not being insured at all - in effect the "excess" is unlimited.

This might be against the unfair contracts acts assuming this transaction is regarded as a consumer related one and not a business to business one as well as some CAA rules.

So no, quite different in my opinion - as a layman not legally trained.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Your venom against the owners of flybpl maybe clouding your judgement

Not at all.

The extract quoted above was from the Terms and Conditions of a major commercial flight training organisation, not FlyBpl.

In fact I stated that:

It may be that RM was legally quite justified in his pursuit of damages from the pilot in connection with that accident?


Having carried out further research on the Web it seems many flying training organisations put the risk on the student/private pilot - and state quite clearly this is the case.

Private pilots hiring club aircraft are clearly not adequately covered against potential claims if things go wrong and it is a fact that there is an insurance industry out there which will provide the kind or insurance necessary if so required.

I think the point is few pilots ever consider their liability in this respect.

[MrYeti]

Mr Yeti


Quote:
What it won't cover is the injury, hospitalisation etc of the pilot
- and any damage to the aircraft and/or any consequential loss suffered by a passenger or third party.



Mr Werks,

Not sure how you make this link. Personal Accident in terms of commerical insurance covers core benefit with sums for loss of sight, teporary disablement/loss of limb, permenent disablement/loss of limb, hospitalisation etc. It doesn't include any material damage covers or indeed third party cover.

I am trying to get hold of an aviation policy wording to help clarify this discussion as i feel it may be getting a little OTT.

[horatio_b]

Two of the impounded FlyBpl PA28s were released today to move into the ex- Flight Academy hangar. (One of them registered to RM).

[SpannerInTheWerks]

he sent the demand for £35000 5 days after the accident whilst the Pilot was still in intensive care.

i feel it may be getting a little OTT

I doubt the pilot involved in the accident would consider the discussion about insurance (or lack of it) as being 'OTT'.

[md 600 driver]

Spanner
Did the pilot agree to flying with 3rd party insurance only or did he think it was fully comp ?

[Mike Cross]

This thread has drifted widely from its subject, however all license holders are required to pass Air Law and as always ignorance is no excuse.
Mandatory Insurance Requirements | Aircraft Register | Operations and Safety (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?pageid=4510)
Note it covers the minimum levels of insurance required by aircraft operators and air carriers in respect of third party cover, passenger cover and cover for risks of war and terrorismnot hull damage.

Also be aware that it is your neck on the block if you fly in breach of the law. You are absolutely 100% entitled to ask for evidence of insurance from the club and if it is not forthcoming or you are not satisfied you should go elsewhere.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Mike Cross

Yep, that's it in a nutshell.

You are absolutely 100% entitled to ask for evidence of insurance from the club and if it is not forthcoming or you are not satisfied you should go elsewhere.

Absolutely, but it seems clubs and flight schools are writing this into the 'small print' of their Terms and Conditions.

However, to be fair, the flight school whose Terms and Conditions I quoted above do make it clear (and reiterate bold text) precisely what the situation is when you fly with them.

Whether this change from 'full' cover has been insidious or a general trend I don't know?

In the States cover is widely available, in the UK AOPA provide insurance for instructors and examiners - but no mention of the private pilot (as far as I could see?).

[BAe 146-100]

Website back online -

We are pleased to announce that normal business will be resumed on 01 January 2014!

Wishful thinking or actually going to happen?

[boy entrant]

Some good news at last for anyone owed money by fly/Bpl, apparently he has won his court case against Blackpool airport and has been awarded £200,000 in damages so give him a ring or nip round to Garstang for a refund, please Keep Calm, don't stampede, there is enough for everybody

[pirx]

.... and the flying pigs are lining up on the apron, rocking gently in the breeze, waiting for clearance ............

[md 600 driver]

Pirx
Are you saying it's not true that he has got compensation from Blackpool or he just won't pay out ?

[pirx]

md 600

Sorry, I don't know anything about anything; I'm just a pilot.

All I can say to you is this: when I see a fine fat pig, four trotters down, slipping over the hedge on a nicely stabilised approach, then I'll believe they can fly .......... until then it's just another rumour.

[Mike Cross]

Hsppy to oblige, one fine fat pig with four greens on final approach to Battersea Heliport, clearly before your time.
http://www.neptunepinkfloyd.co.uk/photos/var/resizes/Pink-Floyd-Photos/Battersea-2011/2011-09-26%20Pink%20Floyd%20Pig%20at%20Battersea%20Power%20Station%2 001.jpg?m=1317035369

Mind you there was a somewhat tasteless joke doing the rounds after the crash of the Hampshire Police Optica that suppports your view.

[pirx]

I'd have you know that I still have my plane spotting cards:

http://www.collectair.com/images/bicycleweb.jpg

and I can tell the difference between a flying pig and a balloon !

[The_Observer]

What news down at EGNH these days?

[boy entrant]

Big container outside his Hangar, put there by the airport, they will be emptying everything out starting tomorrow. The deadline for claiming and removing equipment from the Hangar expires at Midnight tonight (as posted in the Gazette by the receivers)
p.s. no "Carousel" Christmas Party this year, it will be held at the Blackpool Homeless Soup Kitchen instead

[Impressive_Wingspan]

Where's Spanner?

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Currently being lambasted on another Thread!!!

We are pleased to announce that normal business will be resumed on 01 January 2014!

versus

Big container outside his Hangar, put there by the airport, they will be emptying everything out starting tomorrow. The deadline for claiming and removing equipment from the Hangar expires at Midnight tonight (as posted in the Gazette by the receivers)

Come on Guys, tell me what's a happening?!

[Sonnie]

Just to clear up Fly Blackpool will be having a Christmas party and it will be at the Carousel! ;)

Oh and I haven't used a fake name to try and hide who I am, I just don't know who half of these people are! But I'm sure that the person this is aimed at can figure it out.

[pirx]

"Just to clear up Fly Blackpool will be having a Christmas party and it will be at the Carousel"Trotters on t'menu ?

[AirForceNone]

["Just to clear up Fly Blackpool will be having a Christmas party and it will be at the Carousel" ]

Not according to the Carousel !! :=

Sounds like more porkies !! .........(i'll get my coat) :D

[boy entrant]

Its OK, I rang too, they didn't know about it, so I booked it for Murg on Saturday 14th for 40 covers same as last year

Merry Christmas Ho Ho Ho

[Sonnie]

Wow! You both have been so sad and gone as far as ringing them up? That's funny.

So to confirm.. we WILL be having a Christmas party at the Carousel. I never said anything about it being booked yet?

[md 600 driver]

Pirx /sonnie
Is trotters a Lancashire treat? I spend a lot of time in Portugal they have a treat of a dish Pezinhos de coentrada (trotters with coriander) albolutely fabulous

Is this carousel place famous for their trotters?. Maybe worth a visit one day

Steve

[mad_jock]

An inside toilet is a treat in Lancashire.

[boy entrant]

we WILL be having a Christmas party at the Carousel.


Poor Poor Sonnie your very first post and you were Lied to

[Sonnie]

Oh that's funny because I'm pretty sure I just got off the phone to the Carousel and booked the Christmas party?

You really need to get a hobby :ok:

[mad_jock]

Not now just phoned and cancelled it.

[Sonnie]

But you haven't though have you ;)

[Back at NH]

What's the problem here?

Is not, in the Flying Orders

'It is the individual responsibility of pilots to ensure that adequate insurance is carried and that all such policy certificates are valid and current. Details of the precise terms of the insurance cover under which Company aircraft are operated may be supplied on request.

the same as

You are absolutely 100% entitled to ask for evidence of insurance from the club


Surely it is part of your pre-flight checks to ensure that all certificates and documents are valid and current. I, for one, would certainly not fly an aircraft until I had satisfied myself on the matter. Indeed, commercial crews check the documents (kept in the tech log folder or other designated folder, either copies or originals as required) each time they fly.

It would seem some of the kettles who are calling the pot black may not be doing this :)

[SpannerInTheWerks]

It would seem some of the kettles who are calling the pot black may not be doing this

A great number of instructional flights and flight tests were carried out and I assume all those self-employed instructors and examiners read the documents and satisfied themselves that adequate insurance was in place - and if not that they were separately covered themselves and understood the potential liability.

commercial crews check the documents

In an ideal world - that's why one airline's insurance policy almost expired a few years ago before it was picked up at the last minute by an observant FO when the expiry date had been missed by every crew flying every aircraft that particular day!

Unfortunately, insurance is one of the last things on a pilot's mind - partly because he doesn't understand the implications, partly because he trusts that adequate insurance will be in place and partly because he sees only blue skies and wants to go flying!

[AirForceNone]

So after much debate the party does go ahead :D

20th December 2013

Apologies Sonnie for doubting you !

I presume all creditors are welcome to attend??

AFN

[horatio_b]

I notice that all the Flybpl aircraft registered to RM are shown on the CAA G-INFO database as CofA suspended.

On what grounds?

[Bluebear1872]

Are they reopening again or is it just a rumour on this rumour network?

[boy entrant]

Don't think he will be Back I heard he passed his Milkman "Renewal" written paper last week and is booked in for the F.C.R (Float check ride) at 03.30 am Monday morning

[AirForceNone]

"Are they reopening again or is it just a rumour on this rumour network? "

Bluebear1872

Below is the information on the Flybpl website. Guess we'll have to wait until the New Year !

"Welcome to the Fly Blackpool website
We are pleased to announce that normal business will be resumed on 01 January 2014!"

AFN