Any rumours on FRIs?

[skaterboi]

Has anyone heard any rumours on whether the FRIs for Flt Lt and Sqn Ldr pilots will be continued? I know the uptake of PAS this year and last wasn't exactly high; might this have an impact?

[VinRouge]

Even if there is, can't think that it will be big enough to make a difference to most. The bucket of poo is most definately fuller than the bucket of gold....

I have heard rumours of fri4 being mulled, but no detail. Can't imagine it until past the NEM consultation and announcements and certainly not till the next election :(

[Just This Once...]

I can confirm that the aircrew FRIs have stopped. I guess we have to pretend to be surprised with what happens next...

With such a small cadre even a small increase in our loss rate will have a disproportionate effect.

My own decision to continue for a bit longer was influenced by PAS terms and an FRI. As I draw to the end of my RoS the system will probably expect me to leave and that is fine with me. I have no idea as to why the system expects the next generation to replace me at such a bargain-bucket price.

[theboywide]

I think the Manning cadre are a bit hamstrung until the bosses officially extend the comms fleet and predator beyond a UOR for Afghanistan.
That's what's stopping an FRI. On paper we don't have a manning problem....

[Just This Once...]

theboywide,

Very good point; we have far too many posts on the black economy. We may pretend that Reaper / Shadow / Sentinel are not core capabilities so do not need to budgeted for in terms of aircrew posts but they soak-up huge numbers. This is particularly true for Reaper which must have 80+ aircrew. The run-on of 'legacy' fleets does not come for free either.

[Could be the last?]

As Manning appear to have run out of aircrew (pilots predominantly) altogether, and many ground posts being left gapped or given away to 'Any' surely any Future FRI should also include WSOs?

[5 Forward 6 Back]

We may not have a manning problem (on paper; although Future Force 2020 says we'll maintain "a number" of UAVs, and one breakdown I've seen talks about 2 RPA sqns; coincidentally what we have now; so you can certainly include Reaper in the conversation), but surely we have an experience problem?

Rumour I heard about PAS was a sub-10% acceptance rate, and generally it was only those who were already tied to 2-3 year ROS deals who were taking it. And why not, it adds a bit of benefit then, if you're only really looking at serving for an extra 2 years after your ROS!

[GipsyMagpie]

If it were only 10% then surely someone upon high is hearing huge alarm bells! What numbers are we talking here?

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Colloquial at best, but I know 15 people who were offered it and 2 who accepted. A colleague was told that there were 150 offers from the board and 9 accepted, but I don't know where he got that from.

[Chinny Crewman]

All Chinook QHCIs to be offered 100K immediately! (It is a rumour site!)

[5 Forward 6 Back]

So where are the big manning gaps? I think the Reaper Force, from my recent exposure to it, would benefit from an FRI. It's hard work and people don't seem to want to stay.

Got to ring-fence some WSOs now, seeing as we can't train any more? Worth keeping some SAR guys in case the contract move doesn't happen smoothly? What about QFIs, considering I hear we're going to start training Saudis?

[switch_on_lofty]

This is going to sound like a bite but:
How hard can working on a Reaper Sqn be?

[theboywide]

Maybe want to consider the fact that we now have a cadre of low budget UAV only pilots coming through to free up the proper pilots to do the cockpit jobs.

This will also have an impact on the FRI as its at least 30 or so seats that can easily be filled with not a huge training burden.

Much as i'd like to think its about hard work, the FRI is purely a numbers game. If the balance sheet for pilots vs seats is negative and there are no other lateral solutions to the problem, then they will throw money at then problem, but not until then. My impression is we're not there yet on paper. The shop floor paints a different picture but....

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I think it's probably a bit of a leap to assume that 2 RPA sqns will eventually be filled with just Fg(RPASP) people. I guess there'll always be a few regular Fg(P) people there too.

Biggest issue with that is that other than the already-commissioned test cases, I don't think there's been a single person interviewed or selected to join the specialisation. The training's still the best part of 2-3 years by the time you include IOT, so we're a long way from cutting up the Reaper Force and sending all those pilots back to cockpits.

[VinRouge]

the problem has been alluded to earlier, the cadre is much smaller and any significant future outflow, say to pickup on the outside, is going to be grim for numbers on the inside.

The most skilled cadres will tend to go first, which will further exeracerbate the situation...

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I hear the PVR rates on 2 fleets especially have hit epidemic numbers recently, with the PAS/FRI carrot being removed.

[orca]

But that's fundamentally how they work isn't it?

The notion that there should be a FRI else people will leave is a false one. People have to leave to justify one. Which is why they are only a sticky plaster - i.e. staunch the blood once its flowing at a rate worth staunching.

Equally one can't really countenance a FRI offered to SAR chaps on the off chance that stated policy doesn't come off. T'would be tantamount to declaring stated policy as being wrong. Errr, about that!;)

Not saying I agree with either notion - but I won't struggle to find a bean counter who does.

[FFP]

5 forward 6 back has it spot on regarding the Fg(RPAS) branch. We're a few years away from having the first people come through the door of an AFCO before they hit the front line (and I don't think anyone has come through yet as there is no system / selection criteria for them).

Post 2015 is the key here. Until we know that, the manning plot isn't clear to anyone IMO......

[Phoney Tony]

When I joined pay was the last thing I considered.

It is a shame the old sense of Pride in our country and Armed Services has been undermined by the need to understand the cost of everything and a desire to dig your nose as deep into the trough as is possible.

The value of being in a team, achieving your full potential and serving your country seem to have been eroded to the point of non-existence.

FRI is the bluntest of tools, is very decisive and should be removed as a retention tool.

[Jumping_Jack]

PT....very sweet, I would guess that your world is set in the 1950s and you live in a 'chocolate box' cottage with roses round the door. ;) Regrettably the RAF is reaping what it sowed by the removal of any loyalty to the individuals that joined to serve rather than as just another 'job'. It didn't take long for that to translate into the erosion of loyalty from the individual to the RAF. Much is talked about 'valuing' our servicemen, however, when the talk is not backed up by action the expectation wears a bit thin. :suspect:

[gr4techie]

Phoney Tony,

I'm as loyal to the RAF as it is to me... my frozen payrise below the rate of inflation, reduction of pension, lack of promotion, working harder with less people for zero reward thanks or incentive, inability of posting people where they want and the sell out that is PAYD.

[Phoney Tony]

Outside of the RAF people who are this unhappy change jobs.

They have all the commitments I suspect you all have, mortgages, kids, wife, dog etc etc.

Outside pensions and T&Cs are equally being cut and employers are squeezing.

Why do you stay if life is that bad?

Grow a pair and leave or get on with the job in hand.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I'm still amazed people have that attitude. "If you don't like it, then leave;" well, when surprisingly large numbers of people don't like it, it's smarter to change the things they don't like, rather than just tell them all to leave!

[Chris Griffin]

Sorry everybody, I'll bite.

"Outside of the RAF people who are unhappy change jobs."

Well really?! Many in the mil are caught in the pension trap. Consider that flying pay is reduced on PVR, and it becomes apparent that there are severe penalties if you want to "change jobs". Not many would knowingly choose to put their family under this financial stress, or would you tell yours to "grow a pair"?

The FRI is, in part, driven by market forces, and knowing DEP airline recruitment is starting again later this year, targeting high value individuals now should be a no brainer.

Consider that the STARTING salaries of most airlines mean many would not get a pay cut on transferring to civvy street; roster stability, no secondary duties to sap time with a resultant improvement in quality of life; how could anyone see that as attractive as being "in a team, achieving your full potential..."

If you think its about money alone, you're wrong. Its about quality of life.

Your "grow a pair" attitude merely identifies you as being completely out of touch.

[gr4techie]

Phoney Tony,

You should look at the PVR rates. Some trades / units are in crisis.

I'm seeing far too many experienced, highly skilled, qualified and valuable guys leave and walk into other jobs. Replacing these guys with a kid straight out of school doesn't work.

[Phoney Tony]

I am very much 'in touch'. My terms of service have changed several times and I am financially worse off than others on my Sqn purely because my DOB has on several occasions fallen on the wrong side of the line.

I have seen FRI wasted on individuals who had no intention of leaving and others who did the minimum RoS and then leave. To my mind a waste of money.

[gr4techie]

others who did the minimum RoS and then leave. To my mind a waste of money.

If they did their ROS after taking a FRI, then surely they have met their obligation. Everyones a winner. Nothing wrong with that.

[nowherespecial]

I can't sit by and let this go without comment.

PT is absolutely right. if you don't like it, leave.

I did my time (10 years) as a mil RW pilot. When I didn't like what was in front of me anymore I left. If you are living and spending your entire pay packet to the point that you can't afford to lose your incentive pay by 50%, I suggest you stay in as you won't be suited to civilian life where reality hits you hard.

People who say 'I'm in a pension trap' - would someone detail exactly what 'trap' this is? It's a joke right. You get a pension when you finish work as long as you did 3 years post IOT. It just depends how much.

What you actually mean is 'I have a heavily subsidised lifestyle and get to fly (insert type here) for a living and I think I'm worth a load of extra money' - reality check - you aren't. There's always a load of young people come in, very excited about flying the (insert type here)... Manning look at numbers on a spreadsheet. Individuals count for nothing, never have, never will. It's time people understand that.

And by way of financial stress, Chris Griffin, I just took a £20k pay cut to join a RW company and have a job I like. And I just had a baby so wife isn't working for a year.

People should grow a pair.

[gr4techie]

Manning look at numbers on a spreadsheet. Individuals count for nothing, never have, never will.

Yes, you point this out but it doesn't mean it is acceptable or the right course of action. It is a sorry state of affairs and bad man management when they do not differentiate between a qualified and experienced bod who's been in years and some kid straight out of school. They are only going to shoot themselves in the foot, when further down the line, they no longer have the right manpower.

[nowherespecial]

Casbo,

Maths was never my strong point but your post indicates that you haven't even done a tour yet but are complaining about when you can get out and become a civvie.Why are you already all over how to leave?! Why did you join?!

You also seem to be complaining that at some point you will be forced to do a second tour or, perish the thought, a ground tour.

At any point in the cycle you can get off and go and do something else once you have fulfilled your RoS. Once you PVR, why would they keep paying you the retention pay? It hasn't worked if you PVR has it?! Please bear in mind that if you do lose your flying pay, what you have in effect done is move back to the salary your non-flying peers you went through IOT now earn.

Your attitude seems to be that the, (I'm guessing here) Air Force (apologies if another service) owes you the ability to train you for a role in civilian life. The service does not owe you anything of the sort. Being uncurrent when applying for jobs with a military background is largely irrelevant for a lot civvie firms anyway because unless you have a civvy license they won't look too closely at you anyway (barring the obvious ex-mil schemes).

And please also remember that the military, like virtually every organisation on the planet, is a pyramid. Loads at the bottom, one at the top. You leaving will never cause the wailing and gnashing of teeth you think it does. It makes manning's job easier not having to find senior pilots a job.

While I appreciate that the timing issues the military give you are awkward on time bars etc, you are in control and once the RoS issue is out of the way, the world is your oyster.

[High_Expect]

Shall we start a list of Sqn PAS refusals and PVR rates to get a clearer idea.

My Sqn - 3 PAS offers all turned down.
Two PVRs in last 6mths (both experienced multi-tourists) 15% of the trained qualified crews (with probably 20+% of the experience and quals)

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Good idea. 2 PAS refusals here and 2 PVRs, both from 1000hr+ instructors.

[Al-Berr]

20 instructors on my Sqn (an OCU). 7 of us offered PAS - no takers. 1 PVR in last 6 months.

[ralphmalph]

Nowherespecial,

You make some valid points and I am slightly on the same side of the fence as you.

However, the problem now is the ever changing T&C's enforced upon servicemen and women...who have no choice but to accept.

There is an increasingly disgruntled tranche of people who joined in the late 90's and early 2000's who have shouldered the brunt of the last ten years of expeditionary war. They also have been dealt blows through the pension changes.

These people do the maths and realise that this is not a job for life.......some people on this thread never got close to harms way in 22yrs....when you do....it puts things into perspective. If you have a family, doubly so.

So when the figures look bad, and more people leave means you cover other jobs...because there is a recruiting freeze....you work more...and have more time away.

IMHO years ago we decided to get the job done...........we did it.....even though the work required was immense....it was only to get the Op finished/started etc.

Now, its the norm.....lack of people, lack of money, lack of time.....live that for any length of time and you will look for a way out, I know i did!

I suggest a disclosure of PVR rates, current manning and experience levels will tell its own story.

[nowherespecial]

Guys,

(Will freely admit have had a long and tiring day in Africa)

I re-read my post and realised it was very negative sounding.

All I wanted to convey is that when the government is giving you the shaft, which it frequently does, you can get out. It pays to remember the dark days, in a post you didn't want at the weekend on duty. Then log on to JPA and hit it. Don't do it when you;re Red 2 and you're about to spend the Winter in Cyprus, that's not going to help you. When it all goes well, the military is a great job, I loved it. When it goes badly, it's shocking and will leave you feeling powerless and miserable.

Take control, if you don't like it, do something about it. You'll make enough money on pensions as a civvy anyway as you'll get paid well and live a life of your choosing.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Good points all, but so are CASBO's there. Plenty of people on my unit are treading water until the ROS is done, but are still worried about the ET waiting time. Even with a shiny ATPL in your pocket, it's a big risk with ANY commitments to say you'll take an immediate pay cut and are content you will definitely have a job available in 9-12 months.

[nowherespecial]

I agree 5F6B. It is a risk.

The way I looked at it (and still do when I have the odd rose tinted moment) is this:

There are 180k people in the military in the UK and around 59.8 million civvies, of which roughly 35 million are of working age.

I'm quite arrogant to say that I'd back myself to be brighter and more capable than a lot of them in a variety of roles. They live their lives in the world we (and I include myself) are scared of - the one with 'no job security'.

And they do just fine.

If you're a bright educated person, pilot or engineer, NCO, Officer or Airman and you work hard and get on with stuff, trust me you will be fine on the outside. There really is nothing to be afraid of.

Come up with a plan to leave (save money, network like hell, find a sector you want to get in to, meet people buy them coffee, get close to the action etc) and pull the pin. Please believe me, while there isn't the job security of a job for 22 years or until 55 years old, there is still plenty happening in RW and FW operations and flying all around the world where good bright people with experience will always be wanted.

Any they give you expenses!

Do it!

[The Old Fat One]

Firmly with PT in spirit, but you also have what I like to call the Neo-Bilko option.

Sit back, smile, collect the wonga and treat the mob like it treats you. Go get yourself some marketable skills (including pilots - civvy flying is no longer a worthwhile occupation for dudes with your IQ and leadership skills) and raise two fingers when it suits you, not when it suits them.

PS...oh and also get a reality check. Life on the outside is no bed of roses, and youse lot did rather better than most today.

PPS You younger guys might have to wiki "Bilko"

[High_Expect]

CASBO - for the record 22Gp now has RoS on QFI courses. Of late they seemed to have also applied that to changing Sqn!!!! I moved from a T1 cockpit to a T2 and manning appear to think I have a 3 year ROS!

Nowherespecial - I have and I can't wait to be out! Better pay and what's more I choose when I want to move on!

[Jet In Vitro]

NWS,

Well said. I think you nailed this problem: job security seems to be the pull factor. So individuals need to balance job security against doing a job you dislike.

Under European law can the MoD actually hold you to a RoS?

[raytofclimb]

Air Force offers fighter pilots $225,000 to stay in | Air Force Times | airforcetimes.com (http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20130625/CAREERS03/306250024/Air-Force-offers-fighter-pilots-225-000-stay-in)

Well the USAF are throwing money at their retention problem. Quite generous it looks too and at a typical tax rate of 25-28%. Not 40%.

Ray