avherald: Pilots fired for letting pax take pilot seat

[Armchairflyer]

Incident: TAM A320 enroute on Apr 28th 2013, passenger in captain's seat (http://avherald.com/h?article=46250b07&opt=0)

[Msunduzi]

How sad that the world has come to this.

What they were fired for, we used to take for granted.

[captjns]

I suppose Rio whilst the brake was setbwould have been a better place for pix.

Wonder what is written in TAM's FOM about who is and is no allowed to occupy a flight crew member's seat whilst in flight.

[golfyankeesierra]

What they were fired for, we used to take for granted.
In Africa maybe, but not here in Europe.

Twenty years ago, AND the story would have hit the papers (with photo's), they would have been fired as well..

[Hotel Tango]

Have to disagree with you a little gys, in as much that "here in Europe" is too generic. As ATC, I had my a moments in the left or right hand seat with a number of European operators, often working the r/t too. I remember in the 70's when shortly after take-off from PMI the Captain gave me his seat and didn't take it back until just before TOD into MAN. I did the nav and r/t all the way. The pax saw me (open cockpit door policy) but in those days they didn't go running to the media. The general attitude was, "you lucky bugger"! This was on a British airline too. Things like that were more the norm than people today want to believe. There were no accidents until the famous Aeroflot case, but that was different since neither pilots were in their seats at the time.

[Sydy]

Fuys,

The pax, a not-so-famous singer, won the "Mile High Club Triple Crow Award" with this one!

Pls, forgive me the bad mouth bellow... :mad:

He managed to :mad: three in a row in the same flight: The Captain, First Officer and the Purser! :eek:

All theee got fired!

[captjns]

Sorry to diagree Sydy... The capt. f/o and purser screwed themselves:=. Not the libretto.

[grimmrad]

As a small kid in the late 70s I was flying with my parents to Tenerife, I was invited during cruise to the cockpit and sat on the captains lap, could take the yoke in my hand and "fly" the aircraft. We did a little aileron wiggle and I was afraid and excited. Those were the days, gone now :(
During a recent travel, my son, I guess same age now as I was then, was shown the cockpit after a recent flight.

[DownIn3Green]

At Istanbul Airlines when overbooked, they would ask if I would allow them to sell the jumpseats...(B-727)...My answer was always "But Of Course, it would be rude to refuse"...But only if I got to pick the 2 lucky pax...Sit on your lap pics? Of Course...In the seat? Never...

[Sydy]

captjns,

I do agree with you, sir!

As we say down here in Brazil: I loose the friend, but never the joke.

It is a bad taste/black humor joke anyway.

[Capn Bloggs]

For as long as I can remember, our national regulations say:

226. During flight, a person may occupy a control seat of an aircraft equipped with fully or partially functioning dual controls only if:
(a) the person holds an appropriate pilot licence for the type of aircraft and the class of operations in which the aircraft is flown;

Sackable offence? That's another issue.

[exeng]

Both my 5 year old Daughter and 3 year old son have sat in the LH seat of a 747 with a major British Airline and 'flown' the aircraft in the cruise. The 3 year old was better at flying the flight director than the 5 year old.

The SFO was always in complete control of course.

What a heinous crime.

[belfrybat]

Seeing who the "singer" is, it makes sense if displaying abysmally bad taste is a sackable offence.

[slf4life]

I've seen too many accident reports where the unexpected happens and type rated crew are very quickly thrust into managing an emergency. God forbid such a scenario occurs and the captain or FO are now trying to switch seats with, or even fight off a passenger who may have caused it to begin with. At the most he should have simply been allowed to visit.

Alarmist? I don't know, but I'm extremely conservative when it comes to people being transported high above the breathable atmosphere at high speed in a pressurized tube thank you. Kind of harsh to fire them though, unless there had been other issues.

[jkstark]

Way back in the late 70s, as a kid I was on flight from LHR to DAC, with a stop I believe in DOH. For the vast majority of the flight in a 707 I was in the cockpit - initially in the RH seat. When the captain went to take a break, the right seat was taken back by the SO, and I moved into the LH seat.

At some point in the flight, with the captain still out, both the FO and the FE left the cockpit - leaving me in the LH seat alone in the cockpit...

Go figure - plane still got to the intended destination, and nobody was fired, or a big deal made of it - although they probably should have in that case... :oh:

I was pretty well versed in the theory of flight at the time, and had a good understanding of what the instruments and controls were there for, and how they worked. Not to mention that I was not able to reach the rudder pedals and any other controls at the same time in any case...

[LindbergB767]

Stark
If you had lost an engine while the 3 idiots were not in the cockpit
The autopilot would have probably disconnected and you would be dead since 1970 as well as all people's on board
All airlines have a policy that you need to have a valid pilot license and a type type rating in order to occupy a pilot seat. It is not very complicated to understand.As well as since 911 most if not all the airlines have a policy that no one is allowed in the cockpit while in flight excepted peoples with an approval . in Japan the cockpit door have to be close and locked before boarding. So each pilots have to follow their airlines rules and if you d ont you have to accept the consequence
When people's are paying and flying in an airplane they put their trust in the crew and this is the responsibility of that crew to act professionally

[captjns]

The days of aviation from the 60's 70's and AIRPLANE are behind us now.

9/11 help mold the accessibility for visitors to the cockpit.

Company Operations Manuals, along with Regulations have also be amended to reflect accessibility for visitors to the cockpit during flight. Manuals and Air Regulations have also been amended over the years to specifically outline who may occupy a flight crewmembers seat during flight too. The Regulations and Company Manuals include clear and concise language as to the consequences that may be faced should a crewmember go rogue.


Isn't it easier to follow the regulations and company procedures rather than risk being fired, or even worse losing an airman certificate?

That said, if one feels that change is in order, than perhaps one should start the ball rolling with their supervisor, the C/P, and follow the chain of command.

Until such time that happens, then no tea or sympathy those who choose to cross the line, or violate company procedures, which is tantamount to insubordination:=.

[KRUGERFLAP]

The glory days of Brazilian Commercial Aviation had finished more than 7 years ago. Now the brazilian pilots have only the rest of the cheese. And this part of the cheese stinks very badly.
Time to go abroad and let the Brazilian Part 121 for young boys and girls who still live with their parents.

Massalama Brazil! :ok:

[Capt Fathom]

Lest we forget the Aeroflot A310 crash over Russia. The Captains son was having a fly from the left seat. The aircraft entered a state of flight from which the First Officer could not recover, resulting in the lost of the aircraft.

[Stop Stop Stop]

I'm sure it's never been allowed- and it would be unthinkable these days but I certainly remember visiting the flight deck on a UK charter airline 737 in the early 80's and sat in the captain's seat for at least 15 minutes whilst Sir was in the galley chatting up the hosties. I even turned the aircraft using the heading knob!

Now I am in the LHS I wouldn't dream of allowing such a stunt- but it happens from time to time- people get carried away with the occasion and it only takes a moment of madness and that's an ended career. There have been numerous such stunts over the years. The problem nowadays is that you can expect any photos to be on Twitbook within minutes of landing.

As a trainer, I always remind my new captains to seriously think what they say on the PA or RT- in the event of an incident or whatever- it only takes a flip comment and because some idiot will always be recording everything, that comment will possibly make itself into the media and open up a world of trouble!

We live in a different world to that of 30 years ago. No more welcoming people into our rather secret world any more.

[Hotel Tango]

Yes, we all know about the Aeroflot accident Capt Fathom. I knew it would come up which is why I already mentioned (in my earlier post) that it was a case of neither pilots being in their seats, which was without question grossly negligent on their part.

Captjns, you're 100% correct, but don't spoil our reminiscing of the fun days of aviation ;)

[PAXboy]

Simply as a pax ...

In this day and age no carrier can be seen to allow such behaviour. If the two had not been promptly fired, TAM would have been under a deluge of public media and YouTube attacks. Do you remember: United Breaks Guitars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Breaks_Guitars) ? How much worse was it to put all the pax lives in danger?

Danger? Yes, because I often read in here how rapidly a situation can develop and then deteriorate. How easily can a level bust occur? etc.

I am buying a ticket on the presumption that, if one of the crew is out of their seat, then the other HAS a quiet space and full situational awareness. My guess is that TAM flight deck was in party mode and glances at the displays might not show up a slow change in one of the systems.

They might have had full SA and control, the occupant of the FO seat might have had their headset fully clamped over their ears and concentrating on the cruise - or not.

But as a pax, if that was allowed to pass, it would have been a PR disaster at the very least. You would not see me on a carrier that allowed such things to happen. United found that their belated actions could not redress the system and that guitar video from 2009 and is still available.

I agree with LindbergB767. Whatever happened 30 years ago was in another era. If does not matter if you liked it the way it was or not. It is now different.

[captjns]

Sorry Hotel Tango:{. I too, long for the days of commercial aviation when I got my first job some 35 years ago:).

[Armchairflyer]

Sure that both pilots were out of their seats in the Aeroflot 593 accident? AFAIK the F/O was basically at the controls all the time.

[mikehammer]

Yes, similar to those above with experience in the late seventies, I was also kindly allowed into the flight deck and to 'steer' the plane in the cruise towards Menorca. Both pilots kept their seats and I stood by the jump seat. That exciting experience as a kid is why I am a pilot today. Those chaps could have refused me entry and saved me from a career marred by petty needless rules (mainly associated with security on the ground rather than in the air)!

[Hotel Tango]

Armchairflyer, "my bad" as the youngsters say these days. I got confused with the fact that there were two kids in the cockpit. In fact they both took turns to sit in the LHS (1st the Captain's daughter, then his son). F/O was indeed in his seat but fully aft and not paying much attention (i.e. monitoring) it seems. He wasted precious seconds readjusting his position (with difficulty) trying to reach the controls whilst the Captain was trying to regain his seat. All in all a complete ba**s up due to a lack of awareness. What I'm saying is that on those occasions when I sat up front, I was aware that the remaining pilot was in full control.

[despegue]

Their own bloody fault. What were they thinking allowing to take pictures?!:ugh:

[PAXboy]

Photos would have been taken - irrespective. Camera phones rule - just ask Prince Harry. No one asks now - especially those who surround 'meedja' types who think everything surrounds their icon and that nothing is barred.

Example, this morning after I had presented a paper at a meeting, one of the attendees commented that he'd made an audio recording of the whole thing. Did he ask my permission?

That's the way it is. You have to assume that someone on EVERY flight is recording/videoing something and that they will make the worst possible use of it.

[crumbo]

I too have sat in front seats as a kid in an A321 and an ATR42 and a shorts 360. in a cruise, one with no pax. And I was born in the nineties. Jump seat rides were a regular occurrence too before 9/11. And I'm still alive!

[jkstark]

@LindbergB767:

I wasn't implying that it was a sane thing to do, in fact quite the opposite. At the time I didn't think much of it, other than it was very cool to be sitting in the pointy end of a 707, but thinking of it later on it did seem like insanity. On the other hand, it was by no means the only time that I was in the cockpit of an airliner in flight as a kid - times were different in many different ways.

And had we lost an engine or other indicent - well... That would have been a different story entirely. However, I can't believe that all three crew left the cockpit on the basis that there was at least one warm body in there (myself) as opposed to having left the cockpit with nobody in there. Would that have been entirely insane and irresponsible - yes, absolutely. Do I believe that it might have happened - absolutely. Did I fly with the same carrier again? Several times, but not necessarily by choice.

[willfly380]

!974 : Spent some time on flight deck [age 4]of a B747-200, even sat for a bit in one of the front seats... Nobody died.
2010: Met the same captain[ retired in 1980s] By chance in a Av seminar. Told him that he changed my destiny and because of that experience i became a pilot and how grateful i was etc etc. He could not stop beaming .
However my 2 bits. These days we know how the situation is . Would i allow even my children to visit the office when in flight? A very big NO. Danger or no danger its just not done these days.Constant Media scrutiny , constant vigil by the Authorities, Crew reports etc. Its just foolish.

[fdr]

Whether it is "safe..." or not is not determined by the fact that no accident occurred. Fact is there is a fair chance that a non pilot in the seat is hardly an increase in safety for the other 100+ passengers.

That is the main issue here. Character is what people do when others are not looking. Did the rest of the passengers have a say in letting a non pilot play with their conveyance? Did the pilots tell the company, or the regulator that, amongst the many other rules that are provided for the regulation and occasionally safety of the system, they elect to follow some when it pleases them? If you don't like the rules, campaign to change them, or get out of the industry. If passengers want to fly aircraft, then they have the right to pay money to the training schools, and go get trained, or join the military and learn for free.

What other rules are just suggestions to the crew?

:mad:

[Gordomac]

Hotel Tango, agreed, reminiscing is fun but maybe should be moved to "Where Are They Now". All a bit damned serious now after 9-11. Quite right but we do get a bit carried away,sometimes, with ill thought out procedures like "Flight Deck Door Policy"............Passwords to be agreed at the Captain's Briefing, etc, etc. No dispute but let's think it through a bit. For you & others enjoying the fun; 5 years old, BOAC Constellation, Beirute-LHR via loadsa places, spent most of the time in the cockpit. 8 years old, regularly in the cockpit of MEA Viscounts, Tehran-Beirut & back. In fact, so regular, Ozzie skipper gave me his MEA wings. Wore them at school & got a regular beating but the chicks loved me ! Few would have thought that I made it to RHS Viscounts after sponsored pilot training. The chicks never doubted. Standing up behind the Captain on Cally DC7 & Britannia..................oh, a bit older then. Oh yeah, did I ever get a go at the controls of both. Then, multi cockpit visits & a seat in the Captain's chair honed my background & assisted me no end in getting into and staying with this glorious profession. Thanks guys; Moreton's DC3, BUA BAC 1-11, BUA VC10, Laker 707...............pass the tissues.

Quite right all you spoilsports. Different world & I regret, deeply, not being able to share the fun of the past with aspiring youngsters. But, what of that saying; "Rules are for the Guidance of wise men and the obeyance of idiots". Well, something like that.

Ooooh, forgot, Age 7, even got to steer the HMV Baltistan through the Red Sea because Captains allowed visits to the Bridge & the young Gmac to fling the cargo/pax vessel from side to side. Mega.

Bort(as we say in the north), different world today & highly regulated. Quite right. Boo hoo. Nasty terrorists spoling the fun, eh, Hotel Tango ?

[Hotel Tango]

Yes Gordomac, but the irony is that despite all the draconian measures taken we're in fact not really any safer from potential "nasty terrorist" actions than before.

[PAXboy]

Agreed that we are no safer from terrorists but we are safer from PR disasters and that costs jobs and money!

I can agree that in the days of old (and I certainly do remember Junior Jet Club and visiting the front of the VC-10) but they had more space, more people in the flight deck, more time. Nowadays it all hapens much faster and in tighter airspace etc.

[Pequena_Inquieta]

Not only capt and F/O were fired. Also the purser and now another flight attendant from the forward galley. :*

[flash8]

Total overreaction by management who usually have their head up their asses anyway most of the time, so no surprise there.

Poor judgement maybe... but for that a warning would have sufficed.

Once sat in the RHS of an Air Europe 732 during the cruise, aged about eight, which was instrumental in occupying the same seat on the 737 nearly thirty years later but in a professional capacity.

We live in a different world today and I think most would agree (anybody over 40) that the old days were far more preferable.

[Gordomac]

flash8, I might have been the Captain. When rules were a bit more flexible, I did try to give back a little of what was extended to me. One very bright chap (might have been you) pointed to the emg rope stowage & asked what was in there. I gave him a measured response telling him that in the event of the Flight Deck Crew being unable to exit via the cockpit door, we would simply open the window,drop the rope, ensure it was attatched to the aircraft & slide down. He looked at me, quizically, and said " Blimey, must be a very long rope !".

[Yankee Whisky]

Not so ! I am of an age where I go back a few years ! As a glider pilot I was frequently allowed entry in the cockpit and it was not uncommon I was offered the co- or captain's seat when either one needed a leak or a stretch.
Some of these crews were also glider pilots and familiar with my club and one, or two received their initial flight training in my club, where I was also one of the instructors. I remember KLM and BOAC in addition to Air Canada and Air Transat but not Air France.

In stabilised conditions, such as mid Atlantic, there is little reason for both pilots to be in their seats and the one pilot (flying) kept a weathered eye on important feedback from the instrument panel and radio x'missions.
It stopped when terrorists began airborne attacks. I am just one of the people who lost a privilege under the greater safety concerns for aircraft in flight. (and made the flight all the more boring what with a lower standard of service in standard class)

[500N]

Yankee Whisky

I can still remember on a number of occasions going into the cockpit of 747's on the way from London - Australia and return, including sitting in the pilots seat.
I think the last time (for me) would have been 1982.

Glad I had the opportunity to do it, still remember the views
and the moon on very clear nights.

[Daermon ATC]

Somehow this incident reminds me of the one not long ago where an Air Traffic Controller's child was issuing clearances on a mayor airport. While everything was "under control" and everybody took etra precautions, it was in violation of the rules. Let's keep in mind that most of these rules have been made precisely because a situation apparently "under control" can turn into something which isn't in a moment and you don't want to increase the chances.

Long past are now the days when pilots (and to lesser extent atcos) ruled the air. Now both of us must follow a somewhat rigid set of rules leaving personal initiative on the shelf for those rare ocassions where it is direly needed. Even though this initiative may nowadays be rather untrained you will agree with me that flying is safer than in the 70s and not only due to improvements on the planes.

And before somebody mentions the magenta line, neither this case nor the one of the controlling child had anything to do with it. In any case I wouldn't have fired the pilots here but give them a final warning. First offence and such... :suspect:

[Lberto]

As SLF I went to the cockpit many times in pre-9/11 era, including the last 30 mn of a domestic flight in the jumpseat, with landing and taxying.
Instead I was a bit surprised one week ago on a Portuguese domestic flight where a class of kids was admitted to the cockpit in groups of five. I have to say that the crew was attentive and closely watching me when reaching the toilet in the front of the cabin . I have to say also that it looked as planned earlier, as the teachers got business class bkfast and chatted with the crew , may be a reward or something like that. Does everybody know if exceptions can be made or airlines can allow such things ? Just for my curiosity, thank you.

[SlingsbyT67M200]

Nowadays it seems to be normal. Pilots sleep as air-hostess turns off autopilot on Bangkok-Delhi flight - Mumbai Mirror (http://www.mumbaimirror.com/mumbai/cover-story/Pilots-sleep-as-air-hostess-turns-off-autopilot-on-Bangkok-Delhi-flight/articleshow/19849077.cms)

[kolob666]

Come on guys it is still fine to let kids into the cockpit and hand fly a commercial plane. Heard of P2F? Sure they pay dearly for it now but what is the difference?:rolleyes:

[saffi]

I was born and grew up in Africa (most of the time). As I recall kids were rare on commercial flights to and from Africa in the seventies and early eighties. I was (nearly) always invited to visit the cockpit and boy did the pilots impress me ;) I was never offered the front seat though. Enjoyed jump seats during landings and soaked up the experience of all the new automation (all explained to me while coming in) when the Airbus was introduced...

When I grew older, and on non-commercial flights I was often offered the front seat, and the controls, with an experienced pilot next to me. At that point I knew I wanted to be a pilot. It never happened.

When I moved back to Europe I worked for some years as a courier, practically living on airplanes or airports. I noticed the change in attitude towards pilots. If you're a captain, you should be treated as a captain, not a bus driver.

Now back on topic: I wouldn't dream of touching anything in he cockpit even if I would've been offered the front seat as a kid. Right now I wouldn't trust my kids in a front seat for a second. Kids these days have a tendency to push a button and then ask what it actually does. Times have changed, we (the kids) are not used to great consequences from pushing buttons (or rotating knobs for that matter). Blame Apple ;) Ignorance is not bliss....

[deptrai]

there's a pattern here: local celebrity/singer, visits cockpit during cruise, sits in RH seat, pictures taken, published....

this time in, Vietnam, both pilot's licences were suspended for 1 month, cockpit AND cabin crew fined (300$, 150$, and 35$).

Saigoneer | Exploring Saigon and Beyond - Vietnamese Actress Gets Airline Crew into Hot Water (http://saigoneer.com/news/news-categories/vietnam/605-vietnamese-actress-gets-vn-airlines-crew-into-hot-water)

moral: celebrity cockpit visits during cruise, with pictures taken, in these times of facebook etc, is a surefire way to self-sabotage a career.

[500AGL]

So apart from the Aeroflot loss , how many other aircraft have been lost as a result of SLF in cockpit , prior to 9/11 :confused:

[Golf-Sierra]

Would you settle for say a surgeon to invite a lunchtime acquaintance to stand in and watch as he performs surgery on you? There is no negative safety impact (med students regularly observe operations), a lot of people are fascinated by medicine, the experience could inspire someone to be a doctor.

Safety aside, it's just plainly not professional.

[despegue]

Bull.
Nothing unprofessional about inviting passengers on the flightdeck.
I still do it all the time by the way, on a large Boeing.
I am the Captain, I do decide who enters and who does not. Full stop.
No picture taking and no talking during critical phases of flight and obciously no seating on either pilot seat inflight.

[Golf-Sierra]

despegue,

just out of curiosity, what criteria do you use to decide who gets invited and who does not? Have you ever had a situation where you invited say kid A, and then kid B was upset because he didn't get invited? How would you handle that?

[captjns]

I guess the Paper Tiger does exist. Above his Chief Pilot and D/O are we:*?

Can some one explain why it's not unprofessional to follow SOPs and invite unauthorized individuals into off limit places?

[despegue]

Because it is not forbidden in my company:} had the Chief Pilots daughter on the jump just recently.:ok:
And no, I will not disclose my employer:rolleyes:

[Al Murdoch]

I'm wondering if we should have a section on PPRUNE called "the good old days"? There would be one thread in it, with one post only:

"the good old days eh it was great back then everything in aviation is sh*t today bloody kids eh who do they think they are following the magenta line back in my day I did x, y or z and it was fine what was the harm paying for type ratings what next send them all back bring back hanging bloody health and safety political correctness gone mad"

We could save ourselves a lot of time and effort.

[MagnusP]

Interjection from SLF here.

I was invited to the flight deck a couple of times on UK domestic flights as the pilot had a keen interest in astronomy, knew where I worked, and thought that (a) I could identify some celestial object he couldn't and (b) would like to see the night sky from FL350. Brief pleasant interludes, and I'm quite sure they'd have been briefer had something demanded his attention.

[blind pew]

Despegue
Nice to hear that the profession hasn't completely descended into the land of woossies and big girl's blouses:ok:

[BOAC]

Because it is not forbidden in my company - really says it all, doesn't it, thus not really relevant to this thread? IF it is 'forbidden' in the company this thread is about, then we effectively have nearly 3 pages of irrelevance. IF it is 'allowed', then.....................

Do we know?

As 'Al Murdoch' says at #54

"We could save ourselves a lot of time and effort."

[roulishollandais]

I could identify some celestial objectWhen will we be able to watch ISON from FL350? ;)

[BayBong]

Hello deptrai," There's a pattern here... "

Those 2 incidents occurred just 17 days apart, in 2 different continents :

- in VN, it was on April 11, posted May 12 on the South East Asia PPrune forum ! The crew and the pilots will fly again soon and the pax offered to pay the 350 $ penalty for the captain, 250 for the FO, and some peanuts for the pursuer.

- in Brazil, it was April 28, posted May 15 on this forum. The crew and pilots are terminated. They should have read the SEAsia forum before having this kind of fun.

Actually, was it fun ? The VN pilots may have fallen for the seductive female star pax even though she looks so so, but why this male singer... ?!

[deptrai]

I should have read the local SEasia forum as well :) a bit ironic that I would have overlooked that, since I'm sitting here about 5nm straight ahead of the threshold of rwy 25 in Saigon, hearing the airplanes coming in for landing over my head. Probably I'm mentally in Europe, on holiday, already

[IcePack]

Interesting this as those who have allowed non approved persons into the flight deck in UK airspace are breaking the UK law & if caught could find themselves in front of a judge along with a custodial sentence.:=

[737Jock]

There you have it, non approved persons. Some company's authorize the captain to authorize people to visit the flightdeck. As such the visitors are approved!

[flydive1]

Interesting this as those who have allowed non approved persons into the flight deck in UK airspace are breaking the UK law & if caught could find themselves in front of a judge along with a custodial sentence.:=

Yes, interesting.

Interesting too that there is a rest of the world, there is airlines and GA, there is private and commercial, there is pre and post 9-11, etc, etc.
Interesting, isn't it?:rolleyes:

[pb365]

There you have it, non approved persons. Some company's authorize the captain to authorize people to visit the flightdeck. As such the visitors are approved!

Care to tell us who?

[bubbers44]

Not a good way to end your career. I have seen it done a few times but unless it is your retirement flight it isn't worth it and then you have to protect your FO. I know some that have.

[bubbers44]

One was our chief pilot who had his friend in the jump seat that worked for Delta. I asked him what airplane he flew and said the DC10. Finally the truth came out that he was his neighbor. I have to admit my retirement flight was also a bit different. What the hell, you are done at midnight so what can they do? Fire you.

[airbus_driver319]

Or have the regulator take you to court to face criminal proceedings..... Food for thought bubbers!

[bubbers44]

I don't think regulators care much about retired pilots. They deal with pilots that will continue to fly.

[Schipholhand]

It was, and possibly still is, policy for certain mainland North-European scheduled and charter airlines to allow revenue passengers to occupy available cabin crew/cockpit jump seats, in the event of overbookings. This would have to be approved by the captain and/or the cabin crew chief, whichever was applicable, on the occasion. Both had the right of refusal, for which there was no comeback or negative opinion, in the event that they exercised same. These carriers carried insurance to cover this eventuality.

[Checkboard]

I have to admit my retirement flight was also a bit different. What the hell, you are done at midnight so what can they do? Fire you.
Fire your FO? :hmm:

[Hotel Tango]

pb365, as ATC with appropriate I/D, even though flying as revenue pax and with no advance coordination, I have been invited to the FD by the Captain at his own initiative. I'm not going to name the airlines but will confirm that all 3 companies I have had the experience with are respected European majors. I don't think that their captains would risk their careers for little old me. It's down to company policy. Recently, again on a major Western European carrier, I noted a young lady on the FD for take-off. She returned to her seat in the cruise. Turned out she was the F/O's girlfriend. And , even to my surprise because we were inbound to LAX, she went back for the approach and landing.

[Checkboard]

EU OPS 1.1235 states:-

"An operator shall ensure that all appropriate personnel are familiar, and comply, with the relevant requirements of the national security programmes of the State of the operator."

and 1.1255(c) states:

"In all aeroplanes which are equipped with a flight crew compartment door in accordance with subparagraph (b):
1. this door shall be closed prior to engine start for take-off and will be locked when required by security procedure or the commander, until engine shut down after landing, except when deemed necessary for authorised persons to access or egress in compliance with National Aviation Security Programme; (NASP)"

The UK NASP has since been superseded:

This initiative led to the adoption of framework Regulation (EC) No 2320/2002 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 16 December 2002 establishing common rules in the field of civil aviation security and thus provided the basis for allowing harmonisation of aviation security rules across the European Union with binding effect.

That regulatory framework has since been overhauled by a new framework, in full effect from 29 April 2010, as laid down by Regulation (EC) No 300/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 March 2008 on common rules in the field of civil aviation security and repealing Regulation (EC) No 2320/2002 which states:
10. IN-FLIGHT SECURITY MEASURES

1. Without prejudice to the applicable aviation safety rules:

(a) unauthorised persons shall be prevented from entering the flight crew compartment during a flight;

[PAXboy]

bubbers44What the hell, you are done at midnight so what can they do? Fire you. This is not personal but they might make an example of your ex-employer who could be pulled up for allowing their staff to do such things. They would then have no choice but to lean on every member of staff for the future.

OK, so some of the fun has gone out of the business. Well, when I was in telecommunications in the 1980s - we had some great larks as we got the job done. But now, it's all rules and punishment and I'm happy doing something else.

[Herod]

If the infringement occured while you were still employed, they could argue gross negligence or gross misconduct. Take a close look at your pension contract; it could have implications. The judiciary might also want to take action, even against an ex-pilot, to discourage future breaches.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Cabin crew asked me to sign a card they had cobbled up for a lady on her birthday. I refused to sign it until I'd seen her - bring her up. ( pre-9/11)

We got married 6 months later.

(Nb Flight deck visits can be bad for your health ! )

[Yankee Whisky]

Quote:
There you have it, non approved persons. Some company's authorize the captain to authorize people to visit the flightdeck. As such the visitors are approved!
Care to tell us who?


As a 50 year glider and towpilot and instructor in my gliding club, I like to think that the captain, who is also a member of my club and checked out for flying gliders by ,myself,would be in a position to invite me on the flight deck ! Or are we so blind as to not see the difference ?:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Bealzebub]

Sadly not!

If a country forbids non-authorized persons (as that specific country defines such persons,) from being on the flight deck whilst operating within it's airspace or territory, then it doesn't matter what the captain or even the airline itself may think, the prohibition is in effect. If a captain or company elects to operate in violation of that instruction, they do so under the threat of penalty and sanction.

[BayBong]

Many years ago, I brought a lot of work with me in a flight with Air Canada. I changed my assigned seat to a row of unoccupied seats as I needed a lot of room to spread my papers. It was before laptop era.

During the flight, Air Canada made an unannounded promotion for its Aeroplan plan. The captain was to draw a seat number, and the winner would get 15,000 points worth a domestic flight AND an invitation from the Captain to sit on the jump seat at the back of the cockpit, behind the FO and the Captain, during landing time.

I did not pay attention as I never win a loto draw and I did not know my new seat number. I only realized that the Captain has drawn my new seat when the CC came to confirm that I won the draw !

Take home lesson : change seat. Or bring a lot of work during a flight.

[ExSp33db1rd]

.........Take home lesson : change seat..........

Good job they didn't need your boarding card for verification !

Travelling after retirement I was once assigned something like seat 86Z, and jocularly remarked that I didn't know that the seat rows went back that far ! The female clerk sensed that I knew more than the average punter and started asking questions, which ended in a do-you-remember-so-and-so exchange of mutual friends within the airline from way back, that we had both known.

She then asked for my boarding card back and assigned me something like 20 A instead.

In the departure lounge a Mr. XXXX was paged, and told his seat had been changed - he got my 86 Z !!!

It isn't what you know ( or pay ), it's who you know. ( 'twas always thus )

[femanvate]

Can't say how many times I got to sit in either seat during cruise up to 2001. All it took was a polite FA request and excited puppy eyes once the FO/Capt came back to take me up front. Just like my Grandpa regaled me with stories of travelling in Sikorsky flying boats, I guess I will have to entertain my kids and their kids with pictures of me in the front seat with the Sahara or the Rockies stretching to the horizon, 37000 ft below. That's a room they will never know, unless they decide to make it their job.

[bubbers44]

No, I forced my FO to say that is against company policy captain and I said it is safe and it is my retirement flight and I heard your advice. He was covered because I took full responsibility for a minor policy deviation. My FO was a neighbor and friend so was not going to let him get involved if a FA had a complaint filed. They were cool so no problem but he was covered because I wouldn't have put him in trouble. All of the FA's liked me because I was married to one and treated them right or I would hear from it from my wife. Trust me!

[bubbers44]

Coming back from Capetown, South Africa in a 747 the captain knew we were pilots so invited us up with our wives to spend an hour coming across the Atlantic to chat. Times are different now. It is sad but necessary due to current events. Evil people in the world will probably never let us return to this era of aviation. We need to protect ourselves more than ever in history. Crazy people are doing crazy things so we must protect ourselves, unfortunately. I don't see anything changing.

[despegue]

Friend of mine, NOT a pilot or working for an airline got very recently a visit to the flightdeck in cruise and an offer to sit on the jump for landing in Rio de Janeiro.
Airline: Lufthansa.

I will say this again: Not ALL companies and flightcrew are paranoia anal retentives:E

[jetset lady]

No, I forced my FO to say that is against company policy captain and I said it is safe and it is my retirement flight and I heard your advice. He was covered because I took full responsibility for a minor policy deviation. My FO was a neighbor and friend so was not going to let him get involved if a FA had a complaint filed. They were cool so no problem but he was covered because I wouldn't have put him in trouble. All of the FA's liked me because I was married to one and treated them right or I would hear from it from my wife. Trust me!

You sure about that? Obviously, I don't know the SOP's on your airline, but I'm pretty sure that a feeble and obviously scripted objection from the FO wouldn't have been enough for mine. I'm sorry but from an FA's point of view, you put your crew in one hell of a bad position there, retirement flight or not.

I don't like the rules anymore than anyone else does. I believe that a locked flight deck door will do nothing other than deter the odd lone, opportunist lunatic. But why should I face losing my job and possibly facing prosecution because a Captain is on his last flight and fancies having someone up for a jolly? You'd be amazed at what passengers in the first couple of rows pick up on, no matter how discrete you try to be. How do you guarantee they don't report it?

[slowjet]

Despegue, the 9-11 crews were not paranoid or retentive. Access to their Flight Decks was easy & they had their throats cut. Their aircraft were then used as Guided Weapons. Because of that, individual airlines developed sophisticated doors, sophisticated "Door Locked Policies" and very clear SOPS. Most professional pilots do what they are paid to do and follow SOPS. You are not being particularly clever if you think it will never happen to you & you are certainly being extremely unprofessional if you take a light hearted view of safety procedures and bend the rules when it suits you. Would that Lufthansa pax write in to the Company Head of Security & thank him/her for the wonderful experience. Oh, & then come back to the "Professional" pilots network & tell us what the follow-up was . Thanks.

[Hotel Tango]

slowjet, what you and others seem to have difficulty in grasping is that different airlines have different sops regarding this subject. Some of you blindly believe that your own airline sops reflect all airline sops worldwide. They don't. Some countries and their airlines are more under threat then others and their government regulations and airline sops reflect this. Other countries and their airlines operate with a locked FD door but nevertheless continue to give their Captains autonomy regarding FD visits.

[Pace]

PERCeiVED THREAT??? We all know that PAX visited the flight deck on numerous occasions prior to 9/11 probably into millions if the truth be known over decades.
Have people changed NO! Has our perception of a threat changed BIG TIME.
Do not forget that the security industry is a massive multi billion $ industry forever looking out to add more security procedures to increase their industry all under the veil of protecting you and I from a tragic end.

Go onto the London tube system on a busy friday night and watch thousands of passengers dragging large cases which could be packed with all sorts of explosives and all manner of everything completely unchallenged by anyone.

Do they put their cases through scanning equipment? Do they remove liquids? NO they stream into those tube trains in equal numbers to any airline totally unsupervised.

Is the threat there less? NO NO NO!

Fact is any security on the tubes even minor would bring the system to a grinding halt. The authorities know that so turn a blind eye but avaiation???

A massive multi billion $ industry and we have all been brainwashed into the way we think nowadays.

[RAT 5]

I've always been confused about the 100mm bottles. 5 guys in cahoots equals 500mm and that's OK. 1 nutter with 125mm is a massive threat. I think not. I understand it is now OK to take a steel knife on board with blade the length of a credit card; so the security guys in UK told me. My Swiss Army is such a knife with scalpel sharp steel. It's OK, but my yoghurt? oh no.
I once watched as the water bottles and other liquids were passed through the X-ray machine to be then used to extract the hard earned dosh from the pax on the other side. I asked how the x-ray detected the water. Silence. I then asked that if it was OK for the WH Smith water to be x-rayed and approved why not mine. Even more silence. How come the Airline passenger association is not asking the same question.
The perceived threat will always be more effective than the act. You mention the trains & tubes; what about the Chunnel? It's almost as bad as 'reds under the beds' and look where that led in UK & USA.

[Hotel Tango]

bral, just to be clear, my post was not aimed at LH but at the general perception that all carrier SOPS are the same regarding FD visits.

[bugged on the right]

I've just retired so can not be held to account by my employer. I have seen flying degenerate to being an awful experience. We always had passengers on the flight deck and on some occasions my company sold jumpseats. It was an important recruiting tool and provided an insight by the public into what we do.

Then, after the outrage in 2001 we lost our courage and instead of slapping down the element responsible we started to intimidate old ladies, take toy soldiers from little boys and generally criminalise all airline passengers. Equally guilty in the name of political correctness.
I only got the big flight deck door in my last few years. This monstrousity certainly makes a statement. Not only to the pax. I always believed that in the event of a serious ground incident that this door would contribute to my demise.

As crew I have never felt so mistrusted, some of the experiences (all in the UK) at the war on terror were just unbelievable. Not all in front of pax either.
I felt less safe during the latter years and believe that a large part of the whole thing is theatre and will not fly on holiday unless absolutely necessary. Unfortunately my children are beyond rail.
I wonder what motivates people to become pilots these days. There isn't even the flying.

[PAXboy]

despegue
I will say this again: Not ALL companies and flightcrew are paranoia anal retentives.But I'll bet the FC who let someone up front did not expect it to be broadcast on the www? If their mgmt seek them out, they will want to thank you.

As to all the 100ml and ranting about the multi £$€ security industry? They have been autorised by politicians who are covering their @rse and, in truth, they have little choice. WE have no choice. It is the way it is. Accept or don't fly. Do I like it? No. Do I think it makes any diff? No.

If you want to blame someone, start with the American and British behaviour in the Middle East over the last 100+ years. And the meddling is not over yet.

[ExSp33db1rd]

If I were still flying I would have been in Guantanamo Bay years ago, as a result of assaulting, or at the very least insulting, any one of the Worlds' so called airport security staff.

I can barely take the airport security stuff as a passenger now, knowing that the Bad Boys will do EXACTLY what they want to do when they want to do it, and it probably won't be towards an airline again, even simple precautions to make it less than wide open will drive them towards other venues, like suitcases on the Underground - as has been mentioned - or pressure cookers on the streets of a city marathon, but .... why do the crews put up with it so meekly, the "authorities" make them jump through hoops daily, then give them a flying missile (with more than 10ml of fuel on board) to do with what they will !! Madness.

One so called security goon removed a Swiss Army knife from my Flt. Eng. - and this was even before 9/11 - and I asked if she was stealing it ? Oh no, she said, we seal it up and bring it out to the Captain of the aircraft. I am the Captain, I said, why not give it to me now ? Cannot.

Just before start up the same goon appeared on the flight deck (and they didn't make her take her shoes off before boarding) and gave me a sealed packet to sign for. In front of her I tore it open and returned it to the Flt. Eng. and told her she was :mad: stupid.

( I subsequently had tea with the Flt. Mgr. - no choccy biscuits ! )

World's Gone Mad.

[Pace]

Has anyone ever been prosecuted for allowing a non approved person into the flight deck?
Custodial sentence?
I know the law can be an ass sometimes, but surely not that much of an ass?
What's the maximum penalty?

Actually to be fair you can as a PAX visit the flight deck now at the discretion of the Captain but not in flight!
On relocation flights after dropping off a Bizjet I have on a number of times had a chat with the crew leaving the aircraft after shutdown while waiting for the masses to leave the aircraft as if they were on the London marathon.

Being a sceptic I always am wary of genuine reasons for such security especially when so much money is involved.

The next mass employer was going to be saving the planet and global warming until the recession reared its ugly head forcing government to put that new Multi billion£ industry on hold. Jobs for the masses taxes for the government all under the veil of saving the planet.
No doubt as brighter times arrive government will release scaremongering government sponsored research data frightening us all into forking out huge new taxes and and heralding the birth of a new massive and expensive freedom crippling industry.

Security is the same.

[yankeeclipper747]

One of my biggest regrets is that the state of the industry, society in general, is that I will never be able to bring my son along in the cockpit to show him what I do for a living! I remember accompanying my father on numerous flights while sitting on a stack of Jepps to see over the panel. We're all guilty of allowing the PC police and "do-gooders" to ruin things for everyone!

[hec7or]

You are so right, the intimidation leveled at crew reporting for duty has to be seen to be believed, it is as if we are entering a prison and being punished for wanting to go airside.

Why people put up with this is beyond me.

When you have served your country in the armed forces and then undertaken a career where the safety of the aircraft is your one priority, having that responsibility undermined by the security industry is nauseating.

[Basil]

If it is company policy that there are to be no flight deck visits in flight then NO-ONE but crew members visit the flight deck. Not difficult, is it?

I once had a captain fly a non SOP approach. ISTR saying "Well YOU'RE the captain!" Thought the tvat might get the message.
Next time it was "Captain! You are high and fast on a short wet runway!"
The prat landed and burst all the maingear tyres. Still, better than going off the end. :*

[Basil]

I was going off non pilot pax up for landing before 911 anyway.
Dad & son in jumpseats; about 50' on approach dad slaps me on shoulder and says "Ay, pilot dost tha know where tha is?"
You couldn't make it up.