ETOPS Points on FMS flight plan

[Longjon]

Any one can tell me why you should NOT have the EEP ETP EXP strung on the FMS flight plan . The ADS c is one reason but has Airbus got any other reasons such as going to a made up WPT on a flight plan which is not in the data base ?

Appreciate all views on this...thanks

[BOAC]

Not familiar with AB (or ADS-C come to that) but presumably since they are specific 'internal' positions relevant to your particular flight only there is no need for ATC to be aware of them? They really have no relevance I can see to anyone on the ground but I guess would be transmitted by ADS-C regardless if in the legs? I would assume that is the main reason.

Of course, putting them in the legs as waypoints also increases the number of legs and depending on SOPs, the amount of work involved for the secretary on the flight deck.

[compressor stall]

You don't always fly exactly over the calculated ETOPS/EDTO positions. As such, you'd be zigzagging slightly off the airway / CFP route.

Eg. If your CFP is calculating a distance from an off route airport for an EEP, due to many mathematical factors, including the earth's shape, the EEP won't lie exactly on your track, but will be pretty close.

Hence you plug it in the box as a waypoint and put Waypoints on the ND so you can visually see EEP/ETP1 etc.

[galaxy flyer]

If you enter them in your FMS flight plan, ADS-C will report them to the ATS provider. Since ATC doesn't know about your ETPs, they will be confused by the out of sequence positions. Besides, the technicality that when flying GC tracks between ETPs, you are not flying your clearance.

GF

[TopBunk]

Longjon

Don't you have the facility of a 'fix'-type page that displays on the map display, where you can enter a zulu time etc to depict the ETP etc without modifying the FPL route?

[captjns]

EEP, ETP, and EOP will vary from what is on the OFP. Many OFPs I've used over the years do not reflect SIDs to be fown. Also as most plans are generated many hours before the actual STD, all, points over the planet will vary too.

[compressor stall]

Topbunk, on the Airbus you just enter a Z Time in the Flightplan and it will automatically sequence it and show it on the screen.

For ETOPS however, your planning for EEP and EXP uses a fixed distance generally, so it's invariant of time. As such it should be a position in space, hence the procedure to create a waypoint manually -but NOT sequence it- and view he position on he ND via ND's rotary selector on waypoints.

[waterbottle]

SR-22,

As has been mentioned if you are ADS then adding points to the route will upset ATC as they will see a route that doesnt match the plan.

Personally I put the ETP airfield in a FIX with a range ring that matches the time for that and the next ETP airfield. Ill also use the time function in the FIX page.

Works on the Triple anyway.

Cheers

[compressor stall]

Yes, let alone that you are not flying your cleared route either.

[SloppyJoe]

As the op is asking about Airbus why not put it in fix info as EEP and then use the abeam function so as to create ABEEP on the flight plan. Have been doing this for years as have pretty much all other Airbus pilots where I work, not once has it caused a problem with ADS. What you have in your FMS is up to you, ATC have no say in the matter as long as you follow your cleared route you can put whatever you want in the FMS. Never has it been queried by ATC although if they were confused they would just ask about it.

[Longjon]

Thanks sloppy joe but is it OK per ABUS procedure to fly to a WPT not in the data base without any other cross checks from NAV aids?

[Capn Bloggs]

Can't you create a PD waypoint (based on Sloppy Joe's Fix details, if necessary)? That would count as a "proper" waypoint, IMO.

[SloppyJoe]

Well your not flying to a waypoint, your flying to abeam a waypoint you created. If you create the waypoint EEP using the lat/long then enter EEP in fix info, then push the abeam button, all you are doing is inserting ABEEP on your FMS flight plan, you do not fly over EEP as that is not what is on your FMS, you pass abeam EEP at the FMS point ABEEP. You still fly on the airway between the two waypoints on the flightplan but pass ABEEP which is your ETOPS entry point.

[EMIT]

The following is a method to create visible points on your Navigation Display, without messing up the waypoint sequence of your oceanic stretch. The method works on B-767 FMS, try for yourself whether this also applies to more modern Boeings or Airbus FMS.

Be sure to complete your route to destination with an approach, then AFTER THE LAST WAYPOINT OF THE (MISSED) APPROACH, enter a (any) waypoint, then the ETOPS Entry Point, then a(ny) waypoint, then Equal Time Point 1, then a(ny) waypoint, then ETP 2, … etcetera … until a(ny) waypoint, ETOPS Exit Point – then DELETE ALL THE A(NY) WAYPOINTS, then EXECUTE.

In that way, you will have, after the last waypoint of the missed approach, a sequential string of discontinuities and ETOPS significant points.
The route calculations (ETA and predicted fuel at destination) still get calculated without disturbance, the ETOPS point show up as non-active waypoints on/along your route and the Oceanic Waypoints are not disturbed for ATC purposes!

The temporary a(ny) waypoints are needed to create the discontinuities. As identifier you can use any easy identifier that actually exists in the NAV database, e.g. AAA or BBB or CCC.

The insertion of an approach is needed in the route, because otherwise the added waypoints will be included in the route to destination.

[MD83FO]

Youre not really flying to the abeam point, its there just for display. If you check your ND to waypoint it will not be there.