Russian passenger jet shot at over Syria?

[119.4]

(SY) Passenger Jet from Russia reportedly encountered arms fire while passing through Syria but avoided damage - Russia press - Source TradeTheNews.com (http://www.tradethenews.com/)

Please remove if duplicate thread

[Lonewolf_50]

Given the conditions in Syria these days, this news report does not surprise me. I am a bit more surprised that we don't hear similar reports more often.

[grumbles69]

Maybe it will convince Russia to stop bolstering Syria.

Let's hope so. :)

[andrasz]

Reportedly Nordwind charter from Sharm el Sheik to Kazan, with 159 pax, targeted by two SAM-s (almost certainly of Soviet/Russian make), pilots had to take evasive action.

Cannot really fanthom why they took that route when flying North to the Med and then accross to Turkey would have avoided Syrian airspace with a very minimal detour.

[racedo]

Russia has previously warned FSA and it Al Q allies that target Russians and they will take quick and direct action using special forces with no rules of engagement.

Given the way they targeted Lebanese kidnappers of Russians in the 1980's its not a message that gets open to misinterpretation. One kidnap of Russians was all that happened in Lebannon, parts of family members of perpetrators suggested a second attempt may get even bloodier, funny that a second kidmapping never happened.

[SV_741_India_Bravo]

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but how can the pilots know they have been shot at and "take evasive action"?

[JanetFlight]

ASN Aircraft accident 29-APR-2013 Airbus A320-232 VP-BJH (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=155665)

One of their pretty new Airbus.

[DaveReidUK]

ASN Aircraft accident 29-APR-2013 Airbus A320-232 VP-BJHGiven that there was no damage to the aircraft, and no injuries to passengers, it is likely to be classified, in ICAO-speak, as a Serious Incident rather than an Accident.

[EcoFox]

Easy. Syrians are kind enough to install transponders in their missiles :).

Now seriously, do you really think something like this could ever be possible? To me, this sounds like nonsense.

[Sciolistes]

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but how can the pilots know they have been shot at and "take evasive action"?
It'll be either the tracer whizzing past the flightdeck windows at 35,000' or the missle launch warning light and tone annunciation (which I think is a quick action item and not a recall!) :\

[speaker]

I'm guessing that last comment was tounge in cheek, why would a civilian A320 have any kind of EWF warning system? I bet the first they knew of it was the two explosions nearby that must have rattled the crap out of them.

[andrasz]

Old technology SAM-s are incapable of catching up with a jet at cruise altitude (run out of fuel before being able to do so), so the only chance is if they are launched head-on towards an appraching aircraft. The contrails are clearly visible. Lucky someone was looking out on the window.

[ShotOne]

Being as they were designed to down bombers at altitude that seems pretty unlikely. I seem to recall a US U2 piloted by one Francis Gary Powers was shot down by a Soviet SAM at 60+ thousand feet in the sixties.

[CargoOne]

dont mix up SAM (Soviet S-XXX or US Patriot) with MANPADS like Strela or Stinger.

[stator vane]

R.....r will now add this to their pre-flight "brief"?
they have everything else, including the kitchen sink.

[andrasz]

Powers was shot down with the same heads on technique which the Soviets developed as a result of the U2 overflights. It was thought that no SAM's can catch up with a U2 at those speeds / altitudes, which was true but a carefully timed heads on launch did the trick.

It is all a functuon of speed/fuel. The faster the missile, the more fuel it consumes over distance covered, thus the range is shorter. SAMs which have the capability to catch up with jet aircraft at high altitudes need to be fairly large and need a very carefully timed launch window. I doubt that the Syrian rebels would have the capability to operate the sophisticated modern SAMs even if they captured a battery, but launching any of the old generation soviet A/A weaponry dispersed all about Syria (dating mainly from the sixties and seventies) would be well within their ability. The chances of scoring a direct hit with those is pretty slim though. The vast majority of successful SAM hits in Vietnam were accomplished by Soviet crews, the Vietnamese were just popping them away with very little effect.

[RJK_Manga]

U2 speeds? :rolleyes:

[Lonewolf_50]

Did you mean Powers, or Powell, andrasz? :confused:

Tail chase math:
if your missile flies at Mach+ speeds, and the target flies below Mach 1, (granted, with a lot of vertical component versus horizontal for the missile) is it not within the realm of probability to chase one down?

Yes, fuel capacity and burn time is an issue, hence engagement geometry for best Pk doesn't tend to be tail chase ...

[Evanelpus]

or the missle launch warning light and tone annunciation (which I think is a quick action item and not a recall!)

Is this a customer option now on Airbus's?:ooh:

[andrasz]

Did you mean Powers, or Powell ?

Sorry, Powers of course, was early morning before the second coffee...

...and yes, mach++ missiles can catch up with a subsonic a/c form the rear, provided the trajectory is precisely timed and the missile is fired from within range.

[RJK_Manga]

Spot on lonewolf, pursuit guidance is used only on certain MANPADS. It is not change of tactics that brought U2 down, but longer range missiles.

[Papabair123]

What I see is a Cold War between the east and the west with Syria being the borders. This is handing messages between top players. These terror militias that call themselves opposition, not only they get some world support in kidnapping Christian priests, steel holy tombs, and do public executions but they are also provided with some high intelligence and some rockets to shoot down an innocent civilian airplane. Happy Arab spring boys!

[andrasz]

Actually...

True, but probably we're outstepping thread boundaries. The point I was making is that probably the reason the incident ever made it to pprune and elsewhere was that the crew saw the missiles coming at them. The crew of that TU5 over the Black Sea never knew what hit them.