LH tail strike in ORD

[grimmrad]

The SPIEGEL (Lufthansa-Airbus A330 fliegt mit beschädigtem Rumpf über den Atlantik - SPIEGEL ONLINE (http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/lufthansa-airbus-a330-fliegt-mit-beschaedigtem-rumpf-ueber-den-atlantik-a-893561.html)) and STERN report that an A330 D-AIKJ suffered a tail strike early March in ORD but continued the 8 hour flight to MUC. Plane was then transferred at low altitude to HAM for repair . How likely is it that you don't notice a tail strike on take off sitting up front? Tough to gauge from the one picture I found (http://d1.stern.de/bilder/stern_5/reise/2013/KW15/airbus_a33o_d_aikj_fitwidth_420.jpg).
No journalist, no pilot, just SLF and curious

[lomapaseo]

Please share the picture that you mention if you expect a technical response

[grimmrad]

Click the second link to the picture...

[Capn Bloggs]

Didn't hurt LH's share price...

[P40Warhawk]

As far as I know , this aircraft has some device in its tail which comes out and prevents damaging the tail while having a tailstrike : tailstrike airbus - Google zoeken (http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=598&q=tailstrike+airbus&oq=tailstrike+airbus&gs_l=img.3...1762.5922.0.6228.17.17.0.0.0.0.102.1175.16j1.17 .0.ekwqrh..0.0...1.1.8.img.GVSJNbtfaz8#imgrc=p_JjUyPiG4P9wM% 3A%3B2PsG1lyFTA3PpM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi3.ytimg.com%252Fvi %252F6Bxv7ORG7AM%252Fhqdefault.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww. youtube.com%252Fplaylist%253Flist%253DPL27642547B0D4AF4A%3B4 80%3B360)
This is a pic of A380, but I thought the A330 has this device also.
Anyone?

[CONF iture]

No such thing on the 330.
Low quality picture but it looks to be only very light abrasion ... Standing by for the data.

[txl]

According to the "Stern", the picture shows how the affected area of the aircraft's tail has been marked red. The picture is dated March 19, the incident is said to have happened "early March". "The pressurized part was also affected. But there was no leak in the cabin", the "Stern" report quotes an unnamed BFU source. According to "Spiegel Online", the hull apparently suffered some abrasion. BFU investigation is underway.

[Annex14]

Here´s the link to the AvHerald message:
Accident: Lufthansa A333 at Chicago on Mar 5th 2013, undetected tailstrike on takeoff (http://avherald.com/h?article=45edb5ae&opt=1)

So nothing new !! Airplane seems to be repaired and back in service. "Der Spiegel" was late to catch this and make a sensational report about it.

[grimmrad]

Thanks for the link. I agree, a bit old. However - do you catch it up front (scraaaaatch) or is it just too noisy during takeoff to hear / feel it? I have no doubts in LH safety, maintenance and service, they do it (in this case) in my lovely hometown, just wondering.

[Annex14]

Here comes another link to LH sites, showing the seating and the area of the scrape underneath the rear doors.
http://www.lufthansa.com/mediapool/pdf/20/media_140788820.pdf?blt_p=DE&blt_l=de&blt_t=Info_and_Services%3EFlightInfo&blt_e=Content&blt_n=Unsere%20Langstreckenflotte&blt_z=Airbus%20330-300%20%288F%20%2F%2048C%2F%20165M%29%20-%20Version%201
I flew last Oct./Nov. on that type as SLF FRA-SEA-FRA and as far as I remember that area was in flight one of the noisier parts in the cabin. So if it was just a "soft" touch I can imagine that with the engines on t/o thrust the FA´s in the rear as well as the pax may have not noticed the event.

[DaveReidUK]

Airplane seems to be repaired and back in service.What makes you think that ?

I can't see any evidence of the aircraft having flown since it positioned MUC-HAM in mid-March.

[grimmrad]

I think I would have some concerns flying with that particular aircraft after the JAL accident. Hair cracks in the aft pressure dome...? Who knows. Should I be concerned?

[White Knight]

I think I would have some concerns flying with that particular aircraft after the KAL accident. Hair cracks in the aft pressure dome..

If you're talking about the 747 that had a burst rear pressure dome and crashed killing over five hundred people you'll be referring to JAL and not KAL I presume?

[Annex14]

Good question! Checked again today and it appears the flight I observed on flightradar24 end of March using the same flight number as the damaged A330 for a trip from Hamburg to Frankfurt was not D-AIKJ.
Sorry for the misleading info.

[M.Mouse]

If you're talking about the 747 that had a burst rear pressure dome and crashed killing over five hundred people you'll be referring to JAL and not KAL I presume?

And if I recall correctly that aircraft was fatally flawed by an incorrect pressure dome repair.

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

As far as I know , this aircraft has some device in its tail which comes out and prevents damaging the tail while having a tailstrike (...)
This is a pic of A380, but I thought the A330 has this device also.
Anyone?

Only fitted for test flights by the manufacturer (e.g. minimal lift off speed).

[Brenoch]

If you're talking about the 747 that had a burst rear pressure dome and crashed killing over five hundred people you'll be referring to JAL and not KAL I presume?

Or possibly the china airlines B747.

[Green Guard]

Anyway, it looks like this or das "etwas ist nicht in ORD-nung in LH" Ja ?

[grimmrad]

yes, typo corrected. The JAL 747. Now, I have confidence in LH service - but the 747 was repaired by Boing's own people so you would assume they should know what they were doing... But still.

[SMT Member]

yes, typo corrected. The JAL 747. Now, I have confidence in LH service - but the 747 was repaired by Boing's own people so you would assume they should know what they were doing... But still.

You really haven't a clue what you're talking about, do you?

[Lonewolf_50]

SMT, he did say ...

"No journalist, no pilot, just SLF and curious"

;)

[DownIn3Green]

Standard procedure in the B-727 and 737 is if a tailstrike is suspected, the first item on the checklist, if I remember correctly is to level at 3,000 AGL and depressurize the A/C...

After that, (and this is because of the JAL 747 accident) you are to land ASAP...

Not slagging anyone or any particular manufacturer, but I thought those types of things were not supposed to happen on the "Magic Bus"....

(Isn't that why they don't have tail-skids?)

[grimmrad]

@ SMT - I may not have a clue and I am always upfront that I am not part of your industry (even put that in the location to avoid comments like yours as I know people here are very touchy about these things). No need therefore to get dismissive. Maybe enlighten me instead why I do not have a clue?

[SMT Member]

You've twice referenced the crash involving the JAL 747. One would thus assume (dangerous word, I know) that you had some knowledge of the crash, and the investigation following it. I just find it odd that you would reference such a case, without knowing anything about it.

But, for what it's worth, the repair on the JAL 747 was indeed carried out by a team from Boeing. The investigation revealed, however, that they failed to install a double row of fasteners as per the repair manual, which eventually lead to the failure of the aft pressure dome and subsequent crash.

I have no input of any value to offer on this incident, and suspect the same is true for everybody except those few with access to the investigation, be that BFU or LH staff.

[grimmrad]

SMT - with respect to the JAL crash, I read over it on Wikipedia and I believe also the accident report itself. So, I had some baseline clue and I knew that Boing did not repair it correctly - but certainly not any expertise on it.

I guess my point was - even though the LH incident was said not to involve the pressure dome the JAL had a repair done by Boing so you would assume everything is OK then boarding that plane. Well, it wasn't. So, all I meant was if I were to board the LH 330 I would feel uncomfortable knowing that it had that incident and that in other cases in spite of a seemingly expert repair it came down at the end. But I guess this is diverting from the main topic anyway.

[JW411]

Is Boing meant to be a bit of a pun?

[IFixPlanes]

Boing or Ärbus, who cares... :E

[lomapaseo]

I guess my point was - even though the LH incident was said not to involve the pressure dome the JAL had a repair done by Boing so you would assume everything is OK then boarding that plane. Well, it wasn't. So, all I meant was if I were to board the LH 330 I would feel uncomfortable knowing that it had that incident and that in other cases in spite of a seemingly expert repair it came down at the end.

The key to expert rationalising similarity between the two events is the overall structural toughness of the pressure bulkhead to damage tolerance. The bad experience was numerous pressure cycles (flights) and fatigue progression. The presumend miniumization of this effect is the advice to the crew to respond to pressurization anomalies should damage be suspected.

Of course in this latest case we don't have many facts for us to judge

[JW411]

IFixPlanes:

Yes; but Boing is the sort of noise likely to be created by a tailstrike.

[IFixPlanes]

If you take a look at the attachment 1 in the investigation report of JAL 123 (page 259ff.) you find the severe damage to the aircraft.
The damage the LH Airbus suffer in ORD is "peanuts" compared to that.
Aircraft Accident Report, English translation (http://www.mlit.go.jp/jtsb/eng-air_report/JA8119.pdf) (55,1MB)


Yes; but Boing is the sort of noise likely to be created by a tailstrike. No, this would sound like scraping. :E

[JW411]

I suppose some people are just born without a sense of humour.