LHR runway use

[SQnovice]

Hi all, a question for anyone that can answer it please.

When arriving into LHR today we were given 27L for landing, when I went for a coffee just now I've noticed they are still do 27L arrivals and haven't switched it over to 27R after 3.30pm. I know that for 9R/L they alternate as much as possible, but noticed when It is changed to a 27R/L departure/arrival they don't change it as often. An asnwer to settle this would be appreciated.

[Crazy Voyager]

It's the other way around.

On easterlies landings 09L departures 09R.

Weasterlies alternate at 1500 local time according to the runway alteration schedule.

[SQnovice]

They haven't changed at all today or yesterday either.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

There could be variety of reasons, e.g. Work in progress on taxiways adjacent to one of the runways, ILS or lighting problems, work in the undershoot, etc, etc.

Hold on a minute - surely Heathrow has been on easterlies the last few days?

[SQnovice]

My friend landed here yesterday and said they had a 27L landing and never switched and same all day today. Didn't look like there was any work being done, but vis hasn't been great these past 2 days so unless 27R is visual landings only, but then again ive been here in perfect condition's and it been constant 27L landings?

Don't think I've ever seen a take off from 27L.

[Crazy Voyager]

Thanks HD, I was thinking it was just me. I am also quite certain LL have been on the easterlies for the last few days.

SQnovice, are you sure your friend did actually land on 27L and not on 09L? because it would all make sense if I take your posts and exchange "27" for "09". Takeoffs from 09L is rare but landings no 09R do happen, which might be what happened to your friend.

And I have seen many takeoffs from 27L, and 27R.

[SQnovice]

Just realized my huge mistake and yes it is 9L that I'm talking about, they don't seem to switch over when they are on easterlies, is there any particular reason as to why they don't switch?

Sorry for the confusion folks...

[Crazy Voyager]

Carnford agreement, Cranford Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cranford_Agreement)

[Norman.D.Landing]

The Cranford Agreement is no more. The reason LHR doesn't alternate the runways on Easterlies is because the existing taxiway and runway RETS/RATS infrastructure won't support the operation.

:ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Does that mean that the stringent noise abatement restrictions for 09L departures no longer apply? (Sorry for asking but I'm a long time away).

[Crazy Voyager]

I was told about 2 years ago it was going out the window, so it's finally happened then.

Any clues on how long the construction works to build more holding points for 09L and more RETs for 09R will take? I also believe the runways are due for resurfacing in the next few years, a lot of work to come it seems!

[SQnovice]

Understand all now, but think the agreement has ended now like Norman said, if you take a look at the EGLL jepp charts, the holding area by 9L isn't sufficient enough to hold large aircraft, the proximity of the nortern stands on T5a look like they might get quite a draft unlike those on the southern side.

[WHBM]

It does seem surprising that it's taken nearly 70 years for Heathrow to get round to providing adequate hold points for 09L. The Cranford agreement didn't preclude such departures when operationally necessary, eg southern runway ws blocked, under maintenance, etc. Likewise the extra RETs for 09R, if you are down to single runway on easterlies these have surely been necessary for decades.

One aspect is that for for departures on 09R, aircraft hold on both sides of the runway, those coming from T4 and Cargo being on the opposite side to the others, whereas for 09L departures everybody is on the same side, so you do need more space there. T5 is also, somewhat surprisingly, not symmetrically placed relative to the runways, on its south (09R) side the end gates have their own manoeuvring ramp separated from the two taxiways, whereas at the north end it shares the inner taxiway. Those gates, the BA domestic ones, are going to be a real nuisance to get in/out of with 09L departures all holding behind them.

[SQnovice]

My point exactly, the northern stands taxi straight on to holding points for 9L, i could imagine them being great fun on an evening, 20-30 mins holding just for a gate? Also it could cause delays when requesting pushback into other holding traffic. Plus, taxi's from T4 and cargo would last a long time, they'd burn a lot of fuel for taxiing and holding even before they have taken off.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Plus, taxi's from T4 and cargo would last a long time, they'd burn a lot of fuel for taxiing and holding even before they have taken off.>>

What, you mean like aircraft from the south side taxying to 27R?

[SQnovice]

depends which side of the coin your looking at, taxi's from T4 to 27R aren't that usually long, T4 to 27R can be roughly 15-20 mins depending on time of day, YET- if you turn the coin over landing on 27R if you have a long roll out then taxiing from near T5 back to T4 can be 30 mins some times prob the same taxi time and fuel burn as a taxi from T4 to 9L?

[Norman.D.Landing]

HD, 09L doesn't have any different noise restrictions to the other runways. It was only "special" due to Cranford.

[Gonzo]

HD,

The usual restrictions for the use of 09L departures still remain which I think you'd recognise.....owing to noise abatement problems and taxiway congestion, 09L is not to be used for departures unless even 09R is closed, 09L has better RVR or runway state, or 09L has suffered approach aid failures.

Or words to that effect.

[WHBM]

What, you mean like aircraft from the south side taxying to 27R?
Hopefully the aim of the works is to permit full mixed mode on both runways, in which case T4 will presumably always use the south runway - although what's easiest on the ground is going to be interesting in the air; maybe one of our ATC friends above can give a little precis of how this is going to work.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Thanks Gonzo... That will put a few people right.

[Gonzo]

WHBM, the aim of the works is to permit an easterly alternation as we do currently on westerlies.

[MCDU2]

Its called runway alternation in LHR. You can see the entire years "plan" from the attached pdf. It changes at 3pm and when on easterly 9L is generally landings only except if something breaks.

http://www.heathrowairport.com/static/Heathrow_Noise/Downloads/PDF/rwy-alt-prog-2013.pdf

Of course its only a plan and the ATIS and notams will prevail.

[118.70]

Any clues on how long the construction works to build more holding points for 09L and more RETs for 09R will take? I also believe the runways are due for resurfacing in the next few years, a lot of work to come it seems! Hillingdon got an application for 3 RETs for 09R last September and I guess that that work will be done while the southern runway is resurfaced this summer. (Planning ref : 56613/APP/2012/2385 )


As far as the northern runway is concerned, I believe that it is scheduled for the same rehabilitation work as the other runway for the following year 2014. Heathrow started the ball rolling with a scoping report for the enabling works to implement the Cranford Agreement abolition. But to avoid muddying the waters with the effects of the Operational Freedoms Trial, the application has been put on a back burner. It remains to be seen whether Heathrow will want to pursue the preparation of the Environmental Impact Assessment for the enabling works , submit the application and have the consultation for that ongoing at the same time as potential consultations on the implementation of Operational Freedoms. And will that be in time to proceed with the works for summer 2014 ?