View Full Version : Instructor Medicals

24th Feb 2013, 09:52
Went for a medical last week and the AME tells me that you can now instruct on a Class 2 but he had no idea where this information was available. Sent an e-mail to FCL who referred me to the EASA website. I have spent several hours scouring their site with no luck, does anybody have any info?

24th Feb 2013, 10:28
It's true. You can instruct PPL and LAPL (and be paid) on a PPL. To instruct for the PPL you must also have CPL theory.

A PPL only requires a Class 2 Medical.

This is vital for me, because I can no longer get a class 1 medical due to colour vision deficiency. I will be forced to fall back on the PPL privileges embedded in my CPL after my next medical. The only good thing about this is that it may save me a little money. The bad thing is that I cannot aspire to instruct at CPL, or do any other aerial work.

From CAP804:-

FCL.205.A PPL(A) Privileges and conditions
a) The privileges of the holder of a PPL(A) are to act without remuneration as PIC or co-pilot on aeroplanes or TMGs engaged in non-commercial operations.
(b) Notwithstanding the paragraph above, the holder of a PPL(A) with instructor or examiner privileges may receive remuneration for:

(1) the provision of flight instruction for the LAPL(A) or PPL(A);

(2) the conduct of skill tests and proficiency checks for these licences;

(3) the ratings and certificates attached to these licences

24th Feb 2013, 10:43
This is vital for me, because I can no longer get a class 1 medical due to colour vision deficiency.

Why not? I have a friend who is as colour blind as a dog and got a Part FCL medical and is doing his CPL at the moment.

If you have a CPL then one would assume you have already held a Class 1 and you can't go colour blind. Care to share the the reasons for not being able to hold one now?

24th Feb 2013, 10:47
The usual CVD restrictions that I currently have on my JAR Class 1 medical are not permitted on the EASA Class 1 Medical.

Your friend should check this out, because there is little point in him doing the CPL flight test - he will not be given an EASA CPL.

From the Part MED AMC:- EASA - European Aviation Safety Agency (http://easa.europa.eu/agency-measures/docs/agency-decisions/2011/2011-015-R/AMC%20and%20GM%20on%20the%20medical%20certification%20of%20p ilots%20and%20medical%20fitness%20of%20cabin%20crew.pdfhttp://)

VCL Valid by day only

The limitation allows private pilots with varying degrees of colour deficiency to exercise the privileges of their licence by daytime only. Applicable to class 2 medical certificates only.

24th Feb 2013, 11:02
He just did an initial Class 1 down at Gatwick which resulted in a Part Med certificate being issued. So I shan't imagine there will be much issue with him getting his CPL issued when I have finished his course.

He was unable to get a Class 1 until recently so perhaps it might be worth you taking a trip to Gatwick again and talking to them?

24th Feb 2013, 11:10
Check the date on it. If it was before Sept it will be a JAR medical.

They won't issue any more JAR licenses so they can only give a EASA CPL which as stated you can't have a day only restriction on.

24th Feb 2013, 11:20
Seriously boys, I am Head of Training of an ATO I know how to read a medical. Its on the desk in front of me, it was just issued at Gatwick as a European Medical issued in accordance with Part. In fact looks just like my own Part Med medical that accompanies my Part FCL licence issued by the nice people at Gatwick.

The point I am clearly making is that previously he was unable to get a Class 1 and now he is able to get one. So I am suggesting that perhaps Dobbin1 contacts the Medical people at Gatwick again and discusses the case. I might not lead anywhere or in the case of my friend was successful.

24th Feb 2013, 11:54
Seriously though he can't complete the course for CPL under EASA because there is an embeded Night rating

CAP 804 Part L appendix 3 E item 10b and 12b

Which is why over the next 5 years all the day only CPL's will be gone.

Even if he does have the class 1 he can't meet the experence requirements and they won't issue a CPL.

Colour Vision Guidance | Medical | Personal Licences and Training (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=49&pagetype=90&pageid=13879)

Also states that if your colour unsafe you a deemed unfit for Class 1 unless you appeal and you may get

Class 1 applicants who fail advanced colour vision testing can request individual assessment by the Authority under MED.B.001 (“issued by the Licensing Authority”) and consideration will be given to restriction of privileges to “valid by day only” and “no public Commercial Air Transport” (VCL + SSL-ILA + SSL-NCAT).

So if your mate got a class 1 without having to go through heap of bull there has been a cockup. But I still can't see how you can get round the night experence required for a EASA CPL.

24th Feb 2013, 12:16
MJ, We are an ATO, we provide CPL/ME and IR training in addition to our TRTO stuff. I know the rules and have consulted with the CAA about the particular student.

Despite the fact that he is as colour blind as a dog he has a full Part FCL medical with no restrictions shown on it. So he was able to satisfy the CAA Medical branch through some other method that he was able to satisfy the Class 1 EASA medical requirements.

I am therefore suggesting that Dobbin consider talking to them again and see if there is an alternate means of compliance that was not available in the past.

Or just bury your head in the sand and complain about it on internet forums, makes no difference to me!!!

24th Feb 2013, 12:27
Well I hope you got it in writing because they have already refused and downgraded CPL holders to PPL's because of it. If they do allow your student they have a heap of poo heading there way because they are in breach of EASA FCL.

There are a load of ATPL holders becoming CPL's now because of the multicrew experence requirement.

24th Feb 2013, 12:51
The multicrew environment is nothing to do with medicals. I was hit by the same thing myself. It's no loss other than to the ego....

I would suspect that an initial medical issued by the UK CAA at Gatwick in accordance with Part Med is not going to have been issued by accident. Especially considering the fact that he went down there specifically to seek a means of compliance for getting a Part FCL medical while it is clearly known that he is colour blind.......

24th Feb 2013, 13:11
We arn't talking about medical we are talking about experence requirements for license issue now if he has the bit of paper.

And he requires 5 hours night flying 2 of which are solo.

Its the 2 hours solo thats going to stop him getting an EASA CPL.

Under JAR there wasn't the night experence requirement for CPL only for the IR. Which is why you could get it before. Now if you don't have anything in box C on the form your stuffed.

24th Feb 2013, 13:18
MJ, you have not read what I have posted. He no longer has a day limit on his medical. Has already completed the night rating and about to start the CPL and IR training.

I did not go into the details but I know that he specifically went to Gatwick to explore means of getting a Class 1 medical compliant with EASA. Clearly he was successful. As as I have said before, it migh be worth people actually speaking to the medics a Garwick and seeing if there are opportunities to explore. In his case there clearly was a benefit in doing so.

24th Feb 2013, 13:35
Ok so you have a colour safe pilot who has got the required experence.

I have already posted the colour guidance chart.

You always could get the additional tests with the CAA nothing has changed.

You do the plates fail them, you can do the led light test thingy and if you fail that you can do the latern but the CAA can't do that one on site and you have to get a report done.

Same as it was 8 years ago you will notice the CAA references are from 2004. A few of the pilots I instructed payed out for the individual tests and only 1 of them got through out of 8. basically if you can taxi around an airport at night and play spot the difference between all the lights you might have a chance if you can remember the different shades relate to which colour. Which is what the guy that passed did. One of them statistically got lower than just pressing a random button which was quite funny at the time. Nothing has changed since Sept.

24th Feb 2013, 13:47
He as held a PPL for 16 years and tried on numerous occasions to get the day restriction removed. So whatever has not changed has clearly been a benefit to him...... ;)

24th Feb 2013, 15:22
Bose, it might be that your mate passed the CAD test despite failing the Ishihara plates and lantern tests. If he did then he is good to go for a commercial career and good luck to him.

I failed the plates and lanterns and the CAD had not been invented when I did my class 1 initial. I could go back to Gatwick and try the CAD test but I suspect I would fail that too (I only got 2 of the 15 plates correct!). Since I can continue to instruct at PPL level with just PPL privileges, it is not really a big deal for me.

I would like to do the night rating just to be on the safe side, but it really does not make all that much difference to me if I am unable to do it. Interestingly, if I can manage a mere 9/13 pass on the plates I could do the night rating using the embedded LAPL privileges in my licence, but not as a PPL. Daft isn't it.

I will be able to do the new EIR or even the full modular IR as they have dropped the night pre-requisite for these now. I like to think this was at least partly in response to my comments during the consulting phase.

Mad_Jock, when I did my JAR CPL the CAA just told me to forget the night requirement and my licence was restricted to Day only. Not sure if they still have this flexibility under EASA - somehow I doubt it.

24th Feb 2013, 18:47
There was no requirement for night for the JAR CPL its included in the experence requirements for EASA CPL there is no flex at all and people are loosing there commercial licenses because of it. I can think of a couple of CPL/IR instructors who will be out of a job when there license needs renewed.

25th Feb 2013, 07:52
I will ask the question!

25th Feb 2013, 10:04
Some are, believe me or not, holding IRs and FI ratings; i've even seen one chap having a night FI!

There are mainly because of the way the systems have been run through out the years and the principle you can't take something away from someone that they can already do.

There is going to be loads of tears as the licenses come up for renewal and people loose what they have.

For the most part it won't matter an ATPL with no multicrew time isn't going to go into the LHS of an airliner.

Most FI's at PPL level things won't change because they can be payed on a PPL now.

But there are quite a few CPL examinors and instructors out there that arn't colour safe. Whats going to happen to them back to teaching PPL only. They should still be able to teach IR though.

Mickey Kaye
26th Feb 2013, 08:15
" that arn't colour safe"

I sure there colour safe they are just not going to be colour legal with the new changes.

26th Feb 2013, 10:16
Its nothing to do with the caa. They are just the ones that apply the Easa regulation.

To be honest having flown with colour blind pilots at night it really doesn`t seem to make a difference. But that was in a steam instrument sep. How they would get on with an EFIS flight deck I don`t know.

Whiskey Bravo
27th Feb 2013, 20:15
Not sure that this is exactly the right thread to put this into, but seems to be active and with some current knowledge...

The CAA have just issued me with a new Class 1 Medical with an OML restriction applied due to having a severe (but specifically not anaphylactic) reaction to shellfish recently. Reading the various documents, it would appear that the OML restriction (as or with co-pilot) applies only to commercial operations which would require a Class 1 medical, however CAP804 seems to imply that should I wish (which I would like to), instruct pre QXC that I may not. This would appear to contradict the idea of instruction on a Class 2 medical, since my private flying on Class 2 privileges seems not be restricted since the statistical chance of me suffering an incapicating incident is above what would be acceptable for commercial operations but in-line with what would be expected of the Class 2 medical standard.

If anyone could shed some light, or is indeed instructing with an OML that would be really appreciated.

Incidentally the AME who did my medical disagrees with the CAA decision to issue an OML restriction, however as per a previous post, if it is not going to prevent me doing as I would like I perhaps shan't make too many waves at the CAA just now and live with the 'ego issue'.

Likewise if anyone else is currently enduring an OML for similar reasons I'd be happy to join forces in lobbying the CAA on it. Statistically 30% of the population as a whole and therefore probably a similar number of the pilot/instructor community is living with an allergy to something, which could either never manifest in any reaction or could also become an incapicating issue at any time (I had eaten shellfish regularly until the incident in question without any problem). The difference being that those of us who have had a reaction know what we should be avoiding and carry the equipment to deal with it.

Thanks in advance for any input.

28th Feb 2013, 07:29
This would appear to contradict the idea of instruction on a Class 2 medical, since my private flying on Class 2 privileges seems not be restricted As has ever been the case. You can't do it on a Class 1 but you can on a Class 2! Nothing new there just do it!

Whiskey Bravo
28th Feb 2013, 17:44
Whopity... Thanks for this and this was also my understanding, but CAP804 seems not to agree. I'm aware this is not 'law' but it does leave me concerned.

This is what the CAP says about the OML:

Operational multi-pilot limitation (OML – Class 1 only)

(i) When the holder of a CPL, ATPL or MPL does not fully meet the requirements for a class 1 medical certificate and has been referred to the licensing authority, it shall assess whether the medical certificate may be issued with an OML ‘valid only as or with qualified co-pilot'.

(ii) The holder of a medical certificate with an OML shall only operate an aircraft in multi-pilot operations when the other pilot is fully qualified on the relevant type of aircraft, is not subject to an OML and has not attained the age of 60 years.

(iii) The OML for class 1 medical certificates shall only be imposed and removed by the licensing authority.

This suggests to me that the restriction only applies to activities which require my Class 1 privileges, so excludes me from single pilot commercial operations, but does not affect my embedded Class 2 privileges. (There is some more detail in another Euro doc. which basically says that my incapacitation risk, is too high for a Class 1 but in line with what would be expected for the issue of a Class 2).

However, a further scan of the document reveals Section 4 Part N. Starting at page 10 it details what an FI with an OML restriction can and cannot do. The table on page 11 specifically states that having an OML restriction would not allow Ab Initio instruction pre QXC with an OML restriction.

This is where I am confused. If to all intents and purposes I have embedded Class 2 privileges, and it is possible to instruct on a Class 2, then how can there be a restriction? The chances of me being incapacitated while taking my buddy for a bimble is exactly the same as it happening on a trial lesson - and this chance is much lower than winning the lottery!

Ultimately I will probably have to go to the CAA for clarification, but it would be nice to know if anyone is in a similar position or has been through this one before.

Pull what
8th Mar 2013, 17:01
If you have a CPL then one would assume you have already held a Class 1 and you can't go colour blind. Care to share the the reasons for not being able to hold one now?

You can become color blind from certain illnesses or brain injuries, that's why your medical examination always requires a color blindness test.

The CAA told me that it will accept any test for color blindness that any other EU state accepts

8th Mar 2013, 23:05
Colour vision testing is initial examination only.

9th Mar 2013, 01:01
Its not actually it can be fed back through other methods including other NAA's then tested for you to fail.

The UK CAA will only test after having head truma but there is a suprising number of pilots who then fail later on in life who passed the ishara plates when younger.

I fly with a colour blind pilot that doesn't see the difference between red and white with the papi's and it only came on in the last two years. He has 5 months to go so no more OPC's and no more medicals until he is 65. And to be honest nothing wrong with his approach profiles either.

Pull what
9th Mar 2013, 09:00
Colour vision testing is initial examination only.

Since when? Its been included in every renewal Ive had including a class one at Gatwick in January

9th Mar 2013, 09:39
I have never been tested since my initial medicals Class 1&2.

9th Mar 2013, 09:57
If you go for another outside EU states class 1 medical you get tested again.

I had never heard of a persons "state" changing either until I went through getting another ATPL. And the medics said they got 2-3 a year out hundreds I might add that failed and had to go home.