What to do,if flying with an uncomfortable captain?

[Low-bypass]

Hi there
I'm currently Junior FO on the 737 NG and there's particular captain i really hate flying with(not only me feels that about the same guy),he makes the atmosphere uncomfortable for me,cabin crew,dispatch,ground,keeps shouting at everyone,his lack of CRM is beyond my explanation and he always interferes with my controls on landing.I've asked the rostering guy to slot me with him on a scarce basis on only two sectors flying so that i get to spend minimum times with him,however it seems impossible as we're a small operations.Anybody can advice on how i can solve this issue? Thanks in advance

[TOWTEAMBASE]

Give him some CRM training before its too late !!!!

[fantom]

Report to your manager.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Get off.


This message was too short.

[cavortingcheetah]

It baffles the imagination that young buckaroo first officers should be complaining because they fly with experienced captains who are not to their liking. You should be grateful to even get a leg let alone be allowed to try to land the aircraft. We never used to let the Italians land at London City! CRM is often used as an excuse by F/Os in order to hide their own mediocrity of talent.
You should treat this experience as a learning curve and approach each facet of the captain's character with an analytical mind so that you may best learn in the future how not to conduct yourself at the same time as deriving benefit from his ability to tolerate others of lesser experience in his cockpit.

[pudoc]

It's was attitudes like yours that we were warned about on an MCC course.

It's one thing taking over controls because the FO isn't the dogs :mad: when he thinks it is. It's completely different when the whole crew dislike him. Think of the team work hindrances when everybody dislikes the captain.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

It shouldn't matter if you like him or not. Do your job.

[cavortingcheetah]

And another thing, if the captain's uncomfortable, it's the job and duty of the rest of the crew to make him comfortable and that's because only he is the Commander!

[Low-bypass]

@cavortingcheetah it's got nothing to do with being less-skilled,it's been almost 2 years i've been checked out on the plane,this captain i'm complaining about just recently got his commands and we've flown couple of times and his attitudes worsen by the days,i heard dispatchers complaining,ground ops many in the chain as well as few colleagues of mine complaining about him.What i'm just asking is how i should handle this case that's all.Many thanks to other contributors

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Do you just hate flying with him or is he non standard and/or dangerous?

[Bob Lenahan]

Based on very little info about this specific situation, I'd say, "Good luck." I can only say do your best to get along with him- whatever it takes. Everybody has something that you can do to make them happy. If he is as bad as you say, he'll be dealt with in some way. It may take several years, or so. In the mean time, don't let him "ruin your day". Don't lose your job, or mess up your life, because of a temporary situation. I was flying F/O for a small company and they hired a DEC who not only did every dislike immensely, he was unsafe and incompetent. Stories about him were constanly going to the bosses. He was hired as a Capt, he was considered a Capt, he was treated as a Capt- all by the company. Not by any of the pilots- Capts or F/Os. Ground/dispatch personnel ridiculed him regularly. It took about 5 years for him to finally be moved out. And it was done in a way to make him look good. You don't think the company is actually going to admit they made a mistake, do you?

[sevenstrokeroll]

does your company allow you to call in sick?

have you asked other copilots about this guy (unclear).

you could go to the chief pilot and ask him to investigate.

I imagine you aren't a union airline? Union airlines sometimes offer intervention.

The only way to deal with some pilots is to be so absolutely on top of things (american slang for being nothing short of excellent in your duties)....that he can't find fault with anything you do.

[cavortingcheetah]

Why don't you ask him what he thinks of you as a first officer and as someone with whom to share a cockpit? That might surprise you and could prompt a similar question to you from him your answer to which might give him something to think about. He might also, of course, just smack you on the back of the head and tell you to get on with it.

[a1anx]

Grow up. It's life.

[His dudeness]

this captain i'm complaining about just recently got his commands and we've flown couple of times and his attitudes worsen by the days

hmmm, these things are always a matter of perception... maybe he is absolutely not aware how he affects his colleagues.
I have seen that before with new captains, ironically with some guys who complained a lot about their captains when they were F/Os...

I would try to talk to him and see how far you get. Never easy for an F/O.

Good luck !

[Centaurus]

I would try to talk to him and see how far you get. Never easy for an F/O.


Moron captains like that are a dime a dozen, unfortunately. They exist in most airlines. Eventually you will have to bite the bullet and blast right back at him. Act meek and mild and he will continue to slay you. These types are just school yard bullies. Until you have the courage to rip into him for his behaviour then you will continue to suffer. Just make sure your facts are right before you jump him. Preferably wait until you have landed then launch into the idiot. Point at the CVR above his head and say every word is going into that little microphone and so are his replies.

[80-87]

This is always a difficult one. Its a long time since I sat on that side of the pointy end but I do remember that I had one particular Captain that I had difficulties with.

Can I offer this: You MUST take responsibilities for yourself, too. A little experience has taught me that the best time to breach the subject is after the day is done. Be direct and be succinct. Somewhere during the day, without him being around, make some notes and put them away some place.

Try and make it through the day and after the engines have been shut down and passengers are off the aircraft, turn to him and say: 'We've GOT to talk'..don't be afraid to 'lay it on the line'. Don't make any threats, but be diplomatic about things and try and get him to understand.

If that doesn't work and he goes ballistic...then, its time to get management involved. If that doesn't work....this will: Contact an inspector at your CAA and ask to talk to someone in the air safety department. Civil Aviation Authorities are under increased pressure to support air safety concerns, especially from ICAO and its oversite programs and the airline's IATA and its IOSA audit program.

I understand what you might be going through.

[wiggy]

Until you have the courage to rip into him for his behaviour then you will continue to suffer. Just make sure your facts are right before you jump him. Preferably wait until you have landed then launch into the idiot

It's always worth bearing in mind it takes two to tango and contrary to a lot of perceptions about CRM not all the idiots on the flight deck are in the Left Hand seat. If the guy is making life uncomfortable for you and others by insisting that the job is being done properly and in accordance with SOPs then snagging him might not be your best option ....and, dare I say it, be honest with yourself and make sure your own behaviour is beyond criticism before "launching into the idiot".

and then, once you're sure of your ground, I'd agree with what 80-87 said.

[80-87]

...and, dare I say it, be honest with yourself and make sure your own behaviour is beyond criticism before "launching into the idiot".


Very true words. I'd have a look at myself and make sure that I wasn't creating the irritation.

Been there, done that!

[Torque Tonight]

There are two seats up front for a good reason and it is not a master/slave relationship. Some of the comments above hark back to the bad old days where two-crew aircraft were run as single pilot ops. Remember, plenty of meek, obedient FOs have sat there in silence and allowed the Captain to fly them into a smoking crater. You have a responsibility to speak up to ensure a safe and satisfactory working environment. You have a responsibility for your ass, your life and the safety of the operation.

Despite what some may think, just like Popes, captains are not infallible, and the spectrum spreads from likeable, competent operators, to guys who are a bit difficult to work alongside, to those who are a downright threat to the operation. In the latter case if you as FO do not challenge such threats you become culpable, practically and legally.

As FO you have a veto in that the flight isn't going without your cooperation. You better be damn sure before you use it or even threaten to use it, but it is there. Only once have I ever had cause to challenge the guy in the left-hand seat, and that was after he caused two separate reportable events, one with potential for injury or death, before we even started taxying. I was genuinely concerned about the prospect of getting airborne with this captain. The only negative feedback I got from management was that I should have stopped him sooner (although in reality that was not practical). If I had allowed this pilot to continue the flight the way he was going anything could have happened and I would have been blameworthy for facilitating it. In these cases the CVR is your friend. Make sure you are squeaky clean and that it's all on record.

Incidentally, although I am an FO in my current job I have been Captain on multicrew aircraft elsewhere. You are both there to look out for each other and that doesn't mean always saying yes to the other bloke.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Good post TT.
...to those who are a downright threat to the operation. In the latter case if you as FO...
I'm still not clear from the OP that this is the case. It could just be that nobody likes flying with the guy and not that he's dangerous. I asked but didn't get an answer.

Big difference.

P.S. as a captain I may not be infallible but I'm certainly less fallible than the pope;)

[bfisk]

There's a distinct division you need to make here:

Is the captain not following procedures, operating in an unsafe manner, violating regulations etc,

or,

Is he just unpleasant on a personal level?


These are two very distinct dimensions, and you need to know which one you are attacking. One does not necessarily imply the other. Some rouge captains will be nice to you, and some very professional captains will be less than courteous. Most will be both professional and kind, and every once in a while you will find a cowboy who is also an idiot.

It is your job to speak up about unsafe and nonstandard practices. You are also licenced and your opinion does matter. It is your duty to do this, both to the captain, the company, to yourself and certainly to all the fare paying passengers. If it involves taking heat from your colleague, then that is something you will have to endure. It's not always easy, but it is nevertheless your job.

When it comes to personal relations, it is not your duty to change your colleague's behaviour. People are different and some get along better than others. It is a fact of life and holds true in all professions. I certainly try to go along to get along, just because I find it makes for a more pleasant workday. However, I personally will not tolerate abuse in the workplace any more than I would in a bar or at home, and on a very rare occasion I might tell someone that I do not agree with their behaviour towards me or others. That is a part of my personality, and I am sure not everyone agrees with it.

The point is that as a professional you have to differentiate between these two aspects of the job. The first gets easier with experience, and the second one may be easier with age. After a while you get to know yourself, and you will know where your lines in the sand are.

[blind pew]

Spent 20 years as a first officer - the last thirteen as a foreigner as well...seen the lot.
First try the approach of asking to talk to him/her privately and tell him/her your concerns and how you believe it is affecting the operation and possibly safety.
If it doesn't work then hard luck - then you have a choice of management, going sick or calling him a c u next tuesday.
Done them all, sometimes it works and other times I have actually told people to stick the job.
The worst time was the first with a bully and went to management to be bullied and humiliated...quite common at the time in the legacy carrier.
Only had it once as a skipper with an aggressive first officer..tried the gentle approach which didn't work..in the morning he had changed and realised that he was out of his depth and behind the aircraft the night before. So talked it over and slowed down so that he could keep up. So partly my fault for being a speedy Gonzales.
Generally "difficult" characters have some personal problems and are often afraid and bullies.
Remember bullies are cowards.
Another bad one was with a skipper who had been told a pack of lies about me after I had taken control from another skipper...I hadn't told anyone but he had spread a load of bull as a defence.
Eventually told him that I wouldn't fly with him again...completely took the wind out of his sails.
Good luck BUT DO try and talk to them.
If it doesn't work go home - life is too short.

[Lookleft]

If the Captain is the sort of person that manipulates the controls when you are flying just refuse to fly any sectors. Tell him that as he is obviously not comfortable with your technical ability that you will happily do the PNF duties for the day. That will make him stand up and take notice. Captains don't have to give you a flying sector but equally you don't have to accept any.

When I was a bit more experienced as an F/O and a Captain started handling the controls I made them very aware that I wasn't happy with what they were doing and the if they weren't happy with my flying then they should call the tolerance I was exceeding or take over. As others have mentioned there are bullies in every operation and there are people who just don't have any personality. This Captain sounds like a bully and the best way to fix it is to stand up to him. Not easy as a junior F/O but better to get done sooner rather than him making your life a misery.

[Piltdown Man]

I know what it's like dealing with captains like this. I've put up with (too) many like this and can still remember them. We have one called the "Pixie" years ago who has now retired but I'll tell you what - if ever I meet him again... But I didn't have to put up with gits like this. The Pixie was a complete idiot and most people thought the same. But your options are probably the same as the ones I had. You have to do one or some of the following (doing nothing is not an option):

Keep your mouth shut and bite your tongue
Speak with him face to face
Get off
Report the captain to your management
Report the captain to your national aviation authority

Either way you are not happy flying with him and shouldn't have to do so.

PM

[haughtney1]

Flew with a Skipper a few years back who displayed all the personality of a bit bull with a badly infected arse.
He was condescending, rude, aggressive, short tempered, and worst yet the guy had a streak of arrogance that ran through everything he said or did, misplaced IMHO.
Long story short, we arrive down route, said gentleman asked if I'd like to meet up for a beer, I replied in a raised voice (in front of the rest of the crew..who had also suffered) "no thanks, right now your lucky your not chocking on your broken teeth, and if you ever behave that way again working with me that's going to be the outcome"
Next day....you couldn't have flown with a more personable engaging individual, classic bully.

[Jumbo744]

Hello there!

as some have said on this thread: is it his attitude, or is he non-standard and/or dangerous?

if it is his attitude:
gather those other colleagues who have the same perception as you and go talk to the management, if that doesn't work: walk him to his car one day after a flight and talk to him directly and if he gets aggressive, kick the hell out of him.

if it is his flying, take notes, write down safety reports, talk to the chief pilot.

captains are no where near being supermen. they are just pilots, like copilots, but with normally more experience (within the company) and have legal responsability of the flight.

I see 800h copilots with better flying skills, logic, landings than 5000h captains.

I have no sympathie for those many arrogant pilots we meet nowadays.